Joe Keaney has been and continues to be a giant in the world of Hypnotherapy and Hypno Psychotherapy in Ireland. Listen to Joe as he charts for us his beginings in Hypnotherapy and brings us up to today day sharing with us his vision for the future and much much more. All on todays edition of the Professional Hypnotherapists Podcast.
http:/www.hypnosiseire.com
Hi there, thanks for listening and please like this podcast where you listen to your podcasts.
The European Association of Professional Hypnotherapists is a group of like-minded hypnotherapists who are accredited professionals in their field. Many of our therapists have many many years of experience behind them which means you are probably in the best possible hands, available to you.
Why not pop on over to eaph.ie and choose the hypnotherapist that suits you. Many provide online hypnotherapy. eaph.ie
We welcome feedback on your listening experience at eaph.ie
Joe Keaney has been and continues to be a giant in the world of Hypnotherapy and Hypno Psychotherapy in Ireland. Listen to Joe as he charts for us his beginings in Hypnotherapy and brings us up to today day sharing with us his vision for the future and much much more. All on todays edition of the Professional Hypnotherapists Podcast.
http:/www.hypnosiseire.com
Hi there, thanks for listening and please like this podcast where you listen to your podcasts.
The European Association of Professional Hypnotherapists is a group of like-minded hypnotherapists who are accredited professionals in their field. Many of our therapists have many many years of experience behind them which means you are probably in the best possible hands, available to you.
Why not pop on over to eaph.ie and choose the hypnotherapist that suits you. Many provide online hypnotherapy. eaph.ie
We welcome feedback on your listening experience at eaph.ie
Aidan Noone
00:00 - 00:25
This is The Professional Hypnotherapists Podcast session number 0011, Joe Keaney of The Institute of Clinical Hypnotherapy and Psychotherapy, Cork City Ireland. Welcome to The Professional Hypnotherapists Podcast, a production of the European Association of Professional Hypnotherapists. That's eaph.ie.
Aidan Noone
00:46 - 01:21
A very warm welcome to you, to another edition of The Professional Hypnotherapists Podcast. I'm your host, Aidan Noone. Joe Keaney has been, and continues to be a giant in the world of hypnotherapy and hypno-psychotherapy in Ireland. Listen, as Joe charts for us his beginnings in hypnotherapy and brings us up to today, sharing with us his vision for the future, and much, much more, all on today's edition of The Professional Hypnotherapists Podcast. Joe Keaney, welcome to The Professional Hypnotherapists Podcast.
Joe Keaney
01:23 - 01:29
Thank you, Aidan. it's a pleasure to be a part of your podcasts endeavors.
Aidan Noone
01:29 - 01:55
Thank you, Joe. Now Joe, let's go back in time, if you don't mind, back to when you got this idea in your head or, maybe the fire in your belly, with regard to starting up a hypnotherapy school in Ireland. For all intents and purposes, in my opinion, you really started a revolution in hypnotherapy, and I mean revolution in the best possible sense.
Joe Keaney
01:57 - 03:01
I never had a graw if you like to do hypnosis or, anything to do with hypnosis. Initially I started off in mechanical engineering and I was working in a local firm and, in around the early eighties, similar to today they had the recessions and so forth. But, I said, I did not want to go back into industry again. You can give 101% and they still want more. There was no really satisfaction in it. And prior to that, I had a bit of a spiritual experience. So, I started praying, asking God or the holy spirit just to guide me in the right career that I should go in. And, I decided to do chiropractic training in London. While I was over there, one day this man came in with problem with his hand, and the trainer had the ability to use hypnosis.He put him into trance and within a few moments he was using his hand fine.
Joe Keaney
03:01 - 03:54
Subsequently, I found out that he did some regression therapy with him to find out that he was back in the war, the second world war, and he was killing Germans with his right hand and he had a lot of guilt related to that. Then I began to inquire, what's the best way to go for me. This sort of excited my imagination a bit. And, there was only one school I could see at the time, a so-called school in Bournemouth. A man called Neil French in Bournemouth was giving some trainings on it. So I connected up with him and, subsequently I would call him the father of modern hypno-analysis. I did some other courses and with a guy called Bill Atkinson Ball in London. He was an amazing man.
Joe Keaney
03:54 - 04:57
And then I started off my own private practice here in Cork, and I was getting tremendous results, and lots of clients from the 'get go' just due to two small adverts in the local newspapers. Something else was happening as well. There was a guy called Dr. Brown. He was a famous doctor in Cork that used hypnosis, and he died around the same time. So, I felt I was taking over from him, because a lot of his patients came to me and I learned a great deal from them. Anyway, after about four or five years I decided to see could I train people in this, and I developed the 12 lesson approach, whereby people would get lessons every few weeks and answer questions. All our graduates are exam qualified. So that's how I started this, because people were asking me to teach them how to do the work.
Joe Keaney
04:58 - 05:38
Even the late Jack Gibson in Naas, who has documented over 4,000 operations without anaesthesia, that's all been documented, used to send people to me for trainings, because he didn't actually train people. He just performed therapy at that stage, he was retired. That's how I started off the trainings and it just snowballed ever since. I don't know how to explain it, but, I feel I've done this all before, in some other life or, some other dimension, or, there's some hand working with me in this type of thing.
Aidan Noone
05:38 - 05:54
That's interesting. You then started what was known as the Irish School of Ethical and Analytical Hypnotherapy and great emphasis on 'ethical' Joe. Maybe you would develop that point from me.
Joe Keaney
05:55 - 06:07
Yeah. In fact, today now if you're joined our course, the foundation course, we didn't have it in your day Aidan. I'm not sure when you graduated Aidan, was it before 2000?
Aidan Noone
06:07 - 06:08
1995,
Joe Keaney
06:09 - 06:27
So before 2000. There's lots of things in place today, that may not have been in place back then. In the foundation course, we actually give each student a Code of Ethics and Standards, which we've developed over the years. Articles of Association and Code of Ethics
Aidan Noone
06:28 - 06:30
We had those back then, that was very much in vogue.
Joe Keaney
06:31 - 07:35
You you were just given it and told to abide by it as best you could and ask if you had any questions. But now the students are asked to study it specifically and answer questions on it, as part of their foundational course. So I think for two reasons, number one, we had to get rid of the idea of stage hypnosis and, clinical hypnosis. And, so to do that, you'd have to have a Code of Ethics and Standards, which would forbid people from doing any stage hypnosis whatsoever. And also to say that it is psychotherapy like counseling/psychotherapy, they have a Code of Ethics and Standards, and we need to follow those as well. But some of the Code of Ethics and Standards are specific to hypnotherapists. For example, if you were seeing somebody, that's under 18 or 16, you need a guardian or, parent there with them, while you're working with them, that type of thing. It's so important that they're grounded, in ethics, in the beginning, in my opinion.
Aidan Noone
07:36 - 07:54
That was a big emphasis, as you say, in terms of you're dealing with people, your clients on an ethical basis, because prior to this, I suppose, hypnosis had, let's say a negative connotation attached to it.
Joe Keaney
07:55 - 01:40
Yeah. Yeah and maybe even today it still does have this. I think of that a bit like drugs, in the sense that you go to a doctor and the doctor would prescribe medication and drugs for you, which hopefully will help you. And, you know, you can have drugs then being used positively and drugs being used negatively, such as recreational drugs and so forth. I use that metaphor sometimes to describe the differences in it. I suppose if it wasn't for stage hypnosis, hypnosis may have died a death, around the turn of the century, the last century. A lot of stage hypnotists, in fairness to them, do a bit of clinical work as well. I'm not saying one thing against them, or not but, our job is to work in a clinical situation with people. Even the new model of therapy that we've developed in ICHP over the last 20 years, we've developed a thing called the, the "B-Chaps" model of Hypnopsychotherapy. And that talks about, it's brief, clinical, hypnoanalytical, psychotherapy, solution focused. So it's clinical in other words, it's clinical hypnosis that we are focusing on.
Aidan Noone
09:23 - 09:35
And indeed, the unique aspect, I suppose of your school is that it's hypnoanalytical, as opposed to, suggestion alone hypnosis.
Joe Keaney
09:37 - 10:48
Oh, yes. Sometimes I use the metaphor with people of a weed. You have a weed growing and if you come along and you cut the weed off at the top, without taking up the roots, that weed is going to grow bigger and stronger and have more roots and will come back even double the size that it was previously. So we have to get at the root cause of the problem, the roots of the weeds, if you like, the roots of the problems that have been presented to us. That's why I started this work mainly using hypnoanalysis and very little suggestion therapy, in the beginning. But now I've sort of mixed it around a bit, whereby the first four sessions would be solution focused, solution focused in the here and now if you'd like, with clients coming with problems. For example, if they're coming with depression, one needs to work on what's causing the depression in the here and now, the cognitive distortions and work on those a little bit. If the problem is with sleep or anxiety, or addiction problems, we need to work on that in the here and now.
Joe Keaney
10:48 - 11:07
And then afterwards, after about session four, to go into eight sessions or, thereabouts of free association, hypnoanalysis. It's very similar, very little difference to the time that you did it, to what we're doing here today, our clients are free associating. You need to deal with the here and now first, and then go back into the past and find the causes.
Aidan Noone
11:07 - 11:10
And that's the "B-Chaps" model as you mentioned
Joe Keaney
11:10 - 12:10
Yes, "B-Chaps" which simply means brief, meaning that we are not into normal psychotherapy, where they say you've got to do it for an indefinite period of time, or three or, four or, five years. So it's a brief model. If people are going over 20 sessions they needs to be talking to their supervisor and, supervision is another big thing that we train our graduates in as well. It's clinical, meaning that it's done in a clinical way, like any other counseling or, psychotherapy or, psychology. Hypnoanalytical psychotherapy, so we're into cause and effect constantly, cause and effect. There must be reasons for these traumas that people have, and it's got to be solution focused, you know, that we're looking for solutions here. A lot of people going to counseling and psychotherapy and, that type of thing, think that the counselor or, the psychotherapist or the hypnotherapists is going to somehow cure them.
Joe Keaney
12:11 - 13:11
That's not the case, one has got to put the responsibility back on the client in some way, to make the changes. And they've got to make the changes, one way or the other. That's where the focus in session one is, we use the well-formed outcomes in trance. We put people into trance and we do a well-formed outcome with them. With that well-formed outcome, they're put back totally in control of making their changes, not the therapist making the changes for them. So it's brief, clinical, hypnoanalytical psychotherapy, solution focused. There's a focus there in phase one, it's focused therapy in hypnosis in the here and now. Then we need to go back into the past, after those four sessions, although it's normally three sessions. But, ometimes if people are depressed or, have other issues, you need to do another few sessions there.
Joe Keaney
13:11 - 14:04
And into hypnoanalysis.You get tremendous results with this model. And also in session two, we ask the therapist to record the session for the client, so they can play on their own at home, the solution focus elements of it. And thank God for mobile phones, I just ask the client to bring along their mobile phone and have an audio recording app on it and, put it on my desk. When I start the hypnotic part I just click record and they play that on their own at home. So that that's been very, very successful over the last number of years, doing it that way. Also, I have a model in my head sometimes. I have red car in the consulting room here, and it's a dinky car.
Joe Keaney
14:04 - 15:11
And, I normally ask the client, look at if you brought this car to the garage, what's the first thing that mechanic needs to do to see the problem in the engine? Hopefully, they'll say he's got to open the bonnet. And I say, that's exactly right. That's all hypnosis is, it's opening the bonnet. We're putting ideas in, but also we're taking out the root causes of them, to make the car run better. Everybody else in therapy, using therapy are trying to fix the car with the bonnet down. They're talking to the car, they're shouting to the car, they're putting medication into the tank, they're electrifying the car, you name it, they're using it. But it's not going to get anywhere. No changes are going to be made in the long run here. One needs to open the engine and that's where the hypnosis comes in, and that's so important to bring about changes. It's their subconscious mind causing the problem, therefore, it is only their subconscious mind that is going to cure it. I'm not going to cure it. Hypnosis is not going to cure it, but it's the, interaction between the therapist and the client getting at the root causes of what's going on.
Aidan Noone
15:11 - 15:31
Now you mentioned root cause and you mentioned reasons for their behavior. What about people out there, those who would be skeptical and say, okay you get the root cause and, what about that ? What's going to happen then, if you get the root cause, is it magic?
Joe Keaney
15:32 - 16:28
Once we find the root cause of the problem, what we've got to realize is, it's emotion that causes symptomology. It's repressed emotion generally that causes symptoms. It's those traumas, that have happened to people in the past that they may not even be aware, that causes problems. But once you release the memory and the emotion of that, with that will come a change/ Emotional induced symptoms tend to cause organic symptoms. And those organic symptoms can be cancers, it can be arthritis. For example, I had a client recently who had osteoarthritis, to discover that two years prior to the onset of this, somebody very close to her partner died. And it took about two years for this to come to the fore. And once you release the memory and the emotion, and did some bereavement therapy in trance, with that came a dissipation of that.
Joe Keaney
16:28 - 17:38
Tremendous research was done on major diseases being presented, such as cancers and other physical problems. And they discovered that a trauma has occurred about two years before the onset of the symptoms. So that's like the cause and effects in the here and now. I also had another client recently, about two years, I think, and she had tremendous addiction problems. She's in her mid forties, and discovered that the mother was impregnated, she didn't want the child really. The partner didn't want the child, h gave monies for her to have an abortion. But between the jigs and the reels anyway, she was born and life goes on. But, once we released the memories and the emotions of those feelings of rejection in the womb, and carrying those right through her life, with that came change on it, in the symptomology. So it's cause and effects. If people have problems, there must be reasons for them.
Aidan Noone
17:39 - 17:57
And indeed it points Joe, to the whole connectedness, the connectedness between, the psyche of the brain, the mind and the body. So that, if there's something not right in the mind, it has, as we say, symptomology in the body.
Joe Keaney
17:59 - 18:49
Oh, absolutely. The reason I have the red car downstairs, and I made sure it was red, because of all the blushers that are coming to me. I remember in my first three to five years of private practice, the amount of blusher's that came at me was unbelievable. And I didn't have any tools to work with them. We didn't have the internet in those days, to Google it. Even today, if you google it, 'how to deal with blushers?' you won't find any answers. I'm the only therapist that I know of, that actually advertises help with blushing. Now blushing is a horrendous problem and people don't realize it. There's people out there, who are pure geniuses and they won't get beyond the first rung of the ladder, because they're full of social anxiety, because of the problem. There's people out there who are drug addicts, alcoholics.
Joe Keaney
18:50 - 20:05
They won't even leave their houses, because they have problems with blushing. So the only tool I had at the time was hypnoanalysis and going back and finding the causes of those things. And in every case, every case, there was some sort of abuse there,. There was some guilt relating to sexual stuff or, other stuff and, once we released those, with that came a change for them. Today now I've got more up to date skills to work with it, if you like. You can put people into hypnosis and the law of reversed effect is at work in that symptomology, such as they're always saying to themselves, 'oh, I hope it don't go red' and, I make fun of that with the client when they come in to see me. I say, how are you doing your symptom ? And they've no idea how they're doing their symptoms. So, hopefully they'll say to themselves, i hope I don't go red. I say to them, that's what you're doing, that's how you are doing it, it's the law of reversed effect. So we need to do the opposite. I hope I don't go white, I hope it don't go white. So we build suggestions around that initially to get the client on board.
Aidan Noone
20:05 - 20:27
Now you're in excess of 30 years in practice and, with your school, with your Institute in Cork. But, not only do you have a school in Ireland, but you have branches throughout the world. You've trained people throughout the world.
Joe Keaney
20:29 - 21:43
Yeah. We had a school, then others still operating in Sweden, Germany and Australia. Peter, George, came to us around the year 2000 and he did a course with us in the Marino Institute of Education in Dublin. At that stage, we were doing about a two week, in-house course, a practical course on the subject. You'd already done the diploma at home. And he's helped us tremendously over the years, putting together in the last number of years, the master program. That's been quite successful and a lot of our graduates have gone all around the world. For example, I got a phone call recently, or an email from somebody in Japan, who's wanting some help setting up private practice. People in Spain, people in America, Australia, as you mentioned. So we have graduates all over the place, thank God. Hopefully they're using the work in a positive way to benefit those people.
Aidan Noone
21:45 - 21:60
In Ireland, the process by which a person who wants to get trained, in hypnotherapy and hypnoanalysis, maybe you go through that for us?
Joe Keaney
22:01 - 23:14
I think our website now is, hypnosiseire.com. We have details of the courses up there, and there's also a link to send an email to us, to ichp@hypnosis eire.com. It's also built into that, so once they send that we will forward them a brochure, by email and an application form. What they do then is, fill that out and maybe pay a booking fee and send it into us. I'm lucky in the sense that I have two good ex -graduates working with me now, Jennifer Malone, and James White and they're totally committed to the B-Chaps model and teaching it. They're helping me a great deal, both in the classroom and with the paperwork behind the scenes, and the technology involved. So once people send that in, they need to first of all sign up to the foundation program and, that's performed both in Dublin and in cork.
Speaker 3
23:14 - 24:54
And during the lockdown times, we had it on zoom, the practical parts of it. Once they completed the foundation course, then there's the diploma course after that. And then the advanced diploma course. We should have an upgrade program with it, it's a while since we've done that. Then we've got a master program. We completed our first master program, I think, two years ago. With lockdowns and getting Peter George back from Australia to here, it's been a problem. There hasn't been a great demand for it either. So hopefully in a few years' time, we can put on the next four years of the Master program. It's a very, very interesting program. I've learned a tremendous amount both by giving it and being a student of it as well. It covers all aspects of hypnopsychotherapy. But, even if it was a Professor in psychotherapy coming to us, we say to that Professor, look, you have to do the foundational course. That's where it all starts. And you have to do that, to begin the process. I think those courses take about a year each or, thereabouts, and some of them overlap as well. We go to the basics, you know, to the basics of meeting the client, intake forms, doing tests with them or, demonstration of the power of their imagination. You do well-formed outcomes and that kind of thing, with them in trance also.
Aidan Noone
24:55 - 25:19
There's lots of talk, lots of speculation or, whatever you might call it out there, with regard to the whole controlling or the regularization of therapies, counseling, hypnotherapy, psychotherapy. What's your take on that Joe, vis-a-vis hypno analysis?
Joe Keaney
25:19 - 26:02
It's started, the process has started but it has only started for psychotherapists and counselors specific. I'd ask anyone who's any way interested in it, to first of all go to The Social Care Professional Act of 2005, where the mechanism by which people are registered is clearly outlined. The government clearly outlines it. This would be a government thing but, the therapist will pay for it. I don't know how much it's going to cost the therapist in the long run to have this post, because it's a huge, huge, massive process setting up these boards.
Aidan Noone
26:03 - 26:05
CORU is of course one of them, isn't it?
Jeo Keaney
26:06 - 27:05
There's lots of people helping at the moment to put it together, but there's a core group there, that works specifically with the Social Care Professional Act. No association out there can take, all the other associations would fall away, to a certain extent, to be registered on this board. Now we've already, James White , Jennifer Malone and myself, have already been requested by government to send in the outline of our courses, what we teach and the length of time etc., and where we come on the HETAC level. So we sent all those details into them. Now, I'm only guessing here but this thing could take another two or three years to do. But we're going from the idea of, again, it's the Institute of Clinical Hypnotherapy and Psychotherapy.
Joe Keaney
27:07 - 28:13
We have psychotherapy in our trainings and in our membership, for our graduates. But, I would say to them, initially I was thinking that there could be a hypnotherapy board or, something but in there, but no, that's not possible because it's such a huge task to put together these boards. It would take a long time and to get people in place etc.So I'm going from the angle that it's enhanced psychotherapy, what we're doing. It's hypnopsychotherapy, yes that's who we are but, we getting in under the psychotherapy/counselling umbrella as enhanced psychotherapy. That that's what we do and hopefully we get accredited on that. Hopefully on the back of that, any graduates in the past may be grandfathered in, if they meet some of the criteria. I know in every training that I've given over the years, that I've made sure that everyone got an attendance certificate, you follow? The hours to say they'd been attending these things.
Joe Keaney
28:14 - 29:17
So that should all stand to people. And of course, if they've done any other training since then, that it would actually be taken on board as well. Supervision is a big thing also, I'm sure we did supervision in your day, supervision log books were given to people. And I've enjoyed doing some supervision with graduates now and again. So if it's coming on stream, it is, in train if you like. When it will happen? It's a whole process that people have got to get through. I don't think they've even agreed on a definition of psychotherapy. That's one of the questions I need to ask at the next meeting, 'can you please give me a definition of psychotherapy?' To get an agreed definition, you know, you could be here for 10 years trying to get over that conundrum and, they don't want to grasp that nettle. But, anyway, that's not a problem. What's really in all of this, what's really required is how we can help our clients change. You know, that's the central part of what we're doing.
Aidan Noone
29:18 - 29:40
I suppose my question emanated from the concern, that perhaps an existing hypnotherapist, hypno-psychotherapist, hypnoanalyst they may have in terms of going forward. Because it seems that the title 'psychotherapist' is going to be protected. What's your take on that?
Joe Keaney
29:41 - 30:49
Yes, indeed. And that's what will happen once the boards are up and running, once the government have enacted the Social Care Professional Act in parliament, it will be protected. But, what we are doing, as I said is enhanced psychotherapy. That's what hypnopsychotherapy is about. I used to run the Postgraduate Association, maybe 15 years ago, and I had my hands on the pulse of what was going on, but since then I've given up the Association part of it, because it could be at crossed-purposes and it may not be ethical to do that. But the graduates, I think, formed into two Associations and they had psychotherapy in their titles initially, but then they had a fear, like you're mentioning that fear , that they wouldn't be able to perform hypnosis or, something like this, or they wouldn't be able to perform psychotherapy.
Joe Keaney
30:50 - 31:53
But, I think they jumped the gun there a little bit. You crossed the bridge before you came to it, in my opinion. So you had no fear whatsoever as far as I'm concerned. Hypnosis itself, you could say is not registered at the moment, but that doesn't prevent you from performing hypnoanalysis, or hypno-psychotherapy, or whatever you call yourselves at the moment. That title is not protected at the moment. But what we're hoping to do is, we've always called ourselves psychotherapists, and that's what we're doing, psychotherapy. We were the first grouping to make a submission to the Minister for Health at the time and we've created documents around that. I think that hypnotherapy psychotherapy examiners board or something like that we called it. Hypnotherapy Psychotherapy Register is what we called it.
Joe Keaney
31:53 - 33:13
It's non-statutory. So we set up that, and I think they're using some of our ideas, that we gave them on that. So no one has a fear of anything here, in my opinion, and people can get in. I'm delighted we're having this discussion, because I think any graduates of mine, of the ICHP, can still get in with this, when it's open for membership, if you can prove that you've been in supervision, if you can prove you've been trained to whatever level, if you prove that you've gone to post-graduate training in that type of thing. And also in the workshops you've done with me over the years, I think I had a post-graduate training on it, or something like this. Masterclasses is the word I used on those forms that you got at the time,. So, that all goes to prove what you're doing. It's a matter of every therapist putting together a bit of a portfolio for themselves, showing supervision, showing ongoing training, showing their initial training and any master programs they've completed. And that'll all go towards the entrance, into the psychotherapy world under that umbrella and they can be grandfathered in that way.
Aidan Noone
33:14 - 33:46
I suppose, Joe, the whole impetus for the legislation is the protection of the public. Ultimately that's what it's all about, is the do no harm, as the doctor's take an oath of doing no harm. And similarly, as therapists, we want to do no harm, we only just want to help our clients in that sense. So it's a case of, protecting the public and being as ethical as we possibly can be.
Joe Keaney
33:48 - 34:46
I'd agree with you and doctors with their boards have difficulties with this because, doctors generally should do supervision that's being recommended, but rarely would they do that, and some of them are suffering from burnout and all that kind of thing. So as far as I am aware when the board is been set up, there will be Code of Ethics attached to it. The board would be responsible for anyone who has committed any misdemeanour, or broken ethics, or whatever. The board will deal with that. There will be a special board for that and that will be outside of any current Associations that are operating at the moment. You follow ? The board will take those responsibilities themselves, and it'll be like doctors, they've got to go to a medical council or whatever, to get a talking to or, for them to explain their position.
Joe Keaney
34:46 - 36:18
So it will be a similar idea. So, this is why I say at the very beginning of teaching people hypnosis, they need to have their grounding in ethics, from the get go. It is about the client in all of this, the client is so important. And I think our work will be invaluable in the long run, because the fall away from therapy is astronomical. People go to therapy for the first time and you don't see them again. This is outsider therapy generally. They come with an expectation that the psychologist or, the psychiatrist is going to help them and they figure out they're only filling out a load of forms initially, and medication may be prescribed. So you don't see them coming there again. The dropout rate is astronomical with psychotherapy. I am thinking with the advent of, neuroscience and, better understanding of the polyvagal theory, that will allow a lot of people to understand our work even because all research into neuroscience is usually done in hypnosis or trance. So, they're all beginning to come around to the idea that it's a subconscious mind action on the client that is causing problems. And you can see this happening in real time when they're doing various brain scans with people.
Aidan Noone
36:20 - 36:30
Now, you mentioned research, how, how important is research in terms of the hypnotherapy, that we do?
Joe Keaney
36:31 - 37:37
The whole course of the master program is based on the current research, what works for whom, that's everything, It's all evidence-based medicine policies that are being used, they're evidence based therapy. So the research is tremendously important in those areas. If you just take one area, IBS, which I thought initially as a young hypnotherapists, there's no way you can cure irritable bowel syndrome. That's not possible, to cure something organically that's there. Hypnotherapy for irritable bowel syndrome has a 75% success rate and, this is based on evidence-based medicine over 15 years. It has a 75% success rate. Now this symptom is so bad that one in five people have it, half of them have it so bad that they can't go to work.
Joe Keaney
37:37 - 38:42
And I think Dr. Peter Warwell of Manchester University or Manchester Hospital has a special clinic there to deal with people with IBS, and it's got the best results, of all the therapies involved. But even just for that one symptom, it's very helpful. There are over several thousand, hundreds of thousands of papers of research into hypnosis. You could spend for the rest of your life, looking at it, because all the people doing postgraduate courses, things that used to use hypnosis and get something done with the mind is a cool thing to do. And so there's a lot of things there. I think in the United States, the Public Health Service Agency mandated in 79 to provide guidelines for the treatment of depression, for example, which is a horrendous problem again.
Joe Keaney
38:42 - 39:38
The amount of suicides, that I'm seeing at the moment is going through the roof . I've never seen anything like it, what's happening at the moment. So they were looking into this, depression, and they looked at the literature between 75 and 1990, and they looked at someone hundred thousand pieces of research. over 3,500 of the best studies were selected to form guidelines, which were peer reviewed by 73 professional societies, including the British Psychiatric Society and the British Psychological Society. They came up with guidelines for effective of treatment and one of the guidelines that they came up with through that research, bearing in mind in all of this, that hypnosis is enhanced psychotherapy. We're enhancing the psychotherapy that's being done with them, no matter what psychotherapy you're doing, we're just enhancing it.
Joe Keaney
39:39 - 40:20
And they discovered that therapy should be active, the client is there, they're interacting with it. They're not just lying down, just contemplating their navel, so to speak. This is where the solution focused bit comes in. It's time limited, meaning that in our cases, maybe on average 12 sessions. I suppose it's time-limited in it's not going on forever. It's focused on current problems. That's where you have the cause and effect in the now, in the B-Chaps model, and aimed at symptom resolution, not personality change. So they're trying to focus on the symptoms that are being presented at the moment.
Joe Keaney
40:22 - 40:41
So psychotherapy should be considered as a first-line approach in depression, in mild or moderate depressions. I'm not sure I'm answering your question but, that's That's the way I would see it anyway.
Aidan Noone
40:41 - 40:46
The future Joe, what's the future in your mind? What's your vision for the future ?
Joe Keaney
40:46 - 41:33
My vision for the future is that people would be proud of the use of hypnosis, be proud of their hypnotherapists and the therapist would be trained to such a standard, that they would be able to deal with most presenting symptoms coming into the clinic, and they would keep the clients focused from the get-go. I was amazed recently at a guy who came to me about two months ago, he's still coming, and he's coming for a cocaine addiction. But, in the first session with him, this is just before I did the introductory talk, I just started to work with him, because he was a young man as his whole life will be destroyed if he doesn't get a handle on it.
Joe Keaney
41:33 - 42:29
We did a technique, which we call 'the stop and replace technique' and I got him to see a stop sign. He came up with a stop sign and I said, get some emotion in that stop sign. And the emotion he came up with, which I thought it was brilliant was, I see behind the stop sign a graveyard of my unfulfilled dreams. A graveyard, and that sort of motivated him. He hasn't taken cocaine since and he's coming on a weekly basis to me because we're dealing with other issues as well. So the future of it also is, you're probably the first guy I'm saying it to outside his office, but I patented a word. It may sound weird, but the word is 'hypno -natural'. Hypno-natural, how does that sound to you Aidan, the word 'hypno-natural'?
Aidan Noone
42:30 - 42:31
It sounds natural.
Joe Keaney
42:33 - 42:37
Actually, I did say in class, the foundation class last month.
Aidan Noone
42:38 - 42:39
But you have that word on your website.
Joe Keaney
42:40 - 42:42
I'm not sure.
Aidan Noone
42:42 - 42:43
Yes it's there, I read it, hypno-natural.
Joe Keaney
42:46 - 42:57
I am not sure but, I pasted it in there. I said it in class and this guy from Brazil piped up and he said, "it sounds very green, Mr. Keaney, very green."
Aidan Noone
42:59 - 43:09
Now, Joe, you were originally the Irish School of Ethical and Analytical Hypnotherapy, but now you're known as the Institute of Clinical Hypnotherapy and Psychotherapy. What was the impetus to change the name?
Joe Keaney
43:10 - 44:34
Some of my graduates, including your good self said to me, look, we've got to have a smattering of a third level of education in this, because it was up to that level. I didn't realize it at the time and it wasn't an issue for me at the time, but all the schools in Britain and in America were all called schools, and I was just going along with what everybody else was doing. When it came to my awareness that this is third year stuff, you know, or third level stuff then I said the Institute might be the way to go. With an Institute you can cover many things, such as a post graduate association as well, and other bits and pieces you could put in under the umbrella of an Institute. So that was the impetus as well, and also keep in mind that I was thinking in the long run also, that a part of my dreams which is unfulfilled, would be to have University or, third level College or something like this that would be specific to hypnosis and hypnotherapy and, hypno-psychotherapy. Having the word Institute there, might help that along a little bit. So they were some of the reasons.
Aidan Noone
44:34 - 44:44
That was Joe Keaney, the director of the Institute of Clinical Hypnotherapy and Psychotherapy in Cork City, in Ireland. Thank you Joe for being with me today,
Joe Keaney
44:44 - 46:13
It's a pleasure and I'm hoping whoever hears this, especially my graduates, I wish them all the best. One of the policies I have in my head, be it right or wrong, is that once we graduate people from here, I have a policy in my mind not to contact them again. You follow ? Not to get involved in anything they're doing and I have the same policy with clients once they finished therapy because of transference and stuff. I don't make contact with them, whatsoever, because they need to learn to stand on their own two feet. And I miss out on a lot, you know, of what the graduates are doing, what they're up to because of that policy. Be that right, be that wrong, I'm not sure. So, I wish you Aidan the very best and the association you belong to the very best as well, and hopefully it'll be upwards and onwards for hypno-psychotherapy in Ireland and, hypnosis in Ireland. I don't think our graduates have any fear of registration if they did focus on those points that I mentioned and, that could be the subject of another conversation at some other time if they're worried about it. They have no fear whatsoever in continuing to use hypnosis, that may be registered somewhere else down the line, at another time.
Aidan Noone
46:14 - 46:15
All right, Joe Keaney, thank you so much.
Joe Keaney
46:15 - 46:17
Okay Aidan, thank you.
Aidan Noone
46:18 - 46:54
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