Session 0045 - Professor Ivor Browne on Psychotherapy

Professor Ivor Browne is a distinguished figure in the world of psychiatry and psychotherapy. Known for his critical examination of conventional medical approaches, Browne has always emphasized that real change comes from within the individual. He argues that the idea of "treating" someone to change them is a profound misunderstanding in the field of medicine.

Rather, his philosophy hinges on providing support to people as they initiate their own change, a perspective influenced by his observations of therapies like insulin coma therapy.
Professor Browne noted that the perceived effectiveness of such treatments often stemmed from the creation of supportive group environments rather than the medical intervention itself. His insights underline the importance of social connections and personal agency in the therapeutic process.

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Transcript

Ivor Browne [00:00:12]:
So there are 2 questions that bug me now for about 50 years. One is what is madness and I did a thing on that recently and the other one was what is psychotherapy. And I keep coming back to it. You're probably all clear what it is, but I'm not. So I thought for this as a way of approaching it to go back, have you need water? You always forget that, you get thirsty when you're talking. Still do, it doesn't matter. I thought if I could go back to the 3 great pioneers, Freud, Adler and Jung that I might be able to sort of ask the question, what's valuable in the contribution of each of them. Now what I think is valuable probably very different what you would think is valuable.

Professor Ivor Browne [00:01:17]:
Each person would probably take their own, but anyway, it's just to say what I felt looking at their careers. So that's what I was doing. Before I get to that, I looked up in the dictionary this question of therapy from the Greek root and it's interesting that one version of it is meaning to treat, which would be the main thing with medical doctors. The idea that we do something to somebody to change them, which I think is probably the deepest misunderstanding in the whole of medicine because I don't think we can do anything to change anyone. I think people can change themselves and you can be some support to them in doing that. So I found that, so that's just to mention all of that I think follows from this premise that you can do something to a person that's going to change them and you can see I think how false it is. What actually happened, the reason insulin coma therapy appeared to be effective was that they were taking people, different parts of the world from big anonymous wards, you know, all going around like zombies and bringing them into a small group where they develop some group relationship and that was the therapeutic part of it until a fellow, I think he's in the malls there, one of the few decent things they've done there. He put people to sleep just with the barbiturates and showed that the result is exactly the same a little better.

Ivor Browne [00:03:09]:
It was completely bogus therapy. That's funny my old boss I was telling Ian where is Ian going to? Can you hear me over there? Okay. Joshua Bearer, he was actually there at the time when and I can't think of the name of the fellow who started that therapy and he saw it was bogus back at that time, but nobody would listen to him. So that's how these things continue on, on a false premise I think. So anyway, I was looking up the other tragedy way is that because medicine is geared like that and psychotherapy is derived from medicine, still to this day quite possibly some of yourselves think of the idea of giving psychotherapy like 10 sessions of cognitive behavior therapy, which again is another lie. You don't give therapy to anyone. You support what they're going to hopefully do about it. And the only as I understand it now, the only real work is when a person works on changing themselves and if they're not prepared to get into that, you could be the greatest therapist in the world and you can't do a damn thing.

Ivor Browne [00:04:23]:
How often do you ever hear that said? So I looked in at another definition, an alternative translation, to be of service, to attend to, to heal. And I think that's much more appropriate, not only to psychotherapy, but actually to the whole of medicine. Because if you take something like I suppose an extreme is interference, you can get it like a heart lung transplant. When all that is done and the person has a new heart and lungs, they still have to take over their own health. Are they going to stay in the lead and die and a lot actually do? So in the end of all, even in medicine, it's our own healing power that is actually the center of things. Some interventions can help towards that and it's interesting at the moment while psychiatry is relentlessly flusing to change, they're still pursuing this idea we want to be real doctors that will be accepted by the medical doctors and of course they're only laughed at. If they get a psychiatric unit in the general hospital, it's usually down the end of a corridor and people do this and they see them. So it doesn't know they don't really get accepted, but that's what they're pursuing.

Ivor Browne [00:05:43]:
Now the medicine they want to be accepted by is 19th century medicine and again, I hope we don't get too lost in this, but just as a slight digression, when I was in the public school public school of health in Harvard, I was lucky enough to find a book called the Malueux in Terrier or it was an English translation, the Internal Malueux by Claude Barnard. He was a contemporary of Louis Pasteur. Louis Pasteur did this great bit of work of demonstrating that bacteria actually exist and could cause disease and that was he did so well that it was accepted. But the whole of medicine then turned over to attacking bacteria. When in fact, the vast majority of bacteria are not only helpful, but actually essential to us being alive. So the whole emphasis, that's what tends to happen, went off in that direction. Claude Bernard was interested in immunity. That's what he meant by the internal menu which Canon afterwards called homeostasis.

Ivor Browne [00:06:48]:
In other words, that we actually manage our health and ourselves and but he was obliterated. Now I see medicines coming back to that. Most of things happening at the moment are attempts to increase immunity, to move in on the natural healing and to support it. Now even training viruses for cancer and so on and I would predict that within 10 years, these awful treatments like chemotherapy for cancer will be gone completely just like most of these other interferences and we'll be moving back to strengthening and helping immunity, which is again supporting the person who's doing their work at the physical level in the same way that we I think we'd be doing in psychotherapy. Am I making myself clear? Yes, please. So but it's interesting to say that psychiatrists are wanting to be 19th century doctors attacking and they've tried every kind of bacterial theory and malaria treatments, whereas the same medicine is moving quite rapidly and the lay public out there are moving ahead again. There's more if you read any woman's magazine and women have been pivotal in this. It's all about maintaining your health.

Ivor Browne [00:08:11]:
You know, jogging all these peculiar things that people do. I couldn't run 100 hours. But anyway, so the the ordinary people are already moving in on this everywhere. The doctors are beginning to change, but the sky just are holding out relentlessly, which I think is rather sad. So that brings me back to this idea of going back to look at Freud, there in Jung. One of the things happened to me in going back over some of this. Now I'm not pretending I didn't read the 20 volumes of Freud and another 20 of Jung. I've been reading bits and pieces for most of my career you know, but one of these I found happening was getting more respect for Freud and a little bit less respect for Carl Jung although you know, a great admiration for the good things that he did.

Ivor Browne [00:09:11]:
Have any of you read the group of letters between Freud and Jung when they were splitting? Because in that, it seems to me, Freud behaved in a very mature, fatherly sort of way, very kind, trying to compromise and Jung behaved like a petulant spoiled child, attacking him viciously. So also in his later career, Jung seems to be quite an anti semite. So there were signs like that in spite of all the wonderful things that he did. So that made I found that change in looking at at between Freud and Young. Adler is much more left out. But I was fortunate. I was telling Ian, where is he going to now? He's disappeared again. That I worked with Joshua Bearer in 1959 for a year and that turned my whole career around and he was a pupil of Adler, so I got a direct connection back to that time, 1911 when and he sorry, did someone say something? I'm very impressed.

Ivor Browne [00:10:19]:
Well, so Adler was the first rebel to leave Freud and then Jung followed on after that. So I was asking the question, I mean, the first great tribute I have to pay to Freud is that he really came up with the whole idea of psychotherapy. And it's a bit like Darwin, the world changed after Freud. It was just a different consciousness. I often think my own father was pre pre Freudian. He had no concept that there was such a thing as the unconscious. So he would unconsciously meet out all his criticisms of me as part of propping up his own ego. But no idea that he was doing that, you know.

Ivor Browne [00:11:10]:
So I was thinking I can think of 3 areas that seem to me were great contributions of fraud even though a lot of the theories he had don't stand up and in fact particularly in the States, they've thrown the whole baby out of the bathwater. He's just denigrated which is to my mind very wrong. First thing about Freud was that he was as against Adler, he was much more of an introvert and he wasn't that interested in being a clinician. He really wants to find the truth of things. So is everyone can see there all right here? So he had a very good passion to understand, Ernest Jones and his bio he said. And I say he was the first and this change, the whole of conscious sort of deepened just as it did with Darwin, although I think Darwin again has got too much credit because Lamarck was the real founder of evolution, but that's for another time, it's public. So first of all, philosophers and teachers had been hinting at the idea that there are dead levels of consciousness for 100 of years, but it's somebody to write sort of bring this out into the daylight and that's what Freud did. So Yes, I've said all that.

Ivor Browne [00:12:45]:
We move on. So it seemed to me the first major contribution he made was that he recognized the significance of trauma. Now he wasn't the first because Joseph Breuer and even before that Charcot, the neurologist in France had looked at this. But nevertheless, Freud when he was only 4 or 5 months over with Charcot, which has influenced him greatly and he got this idea about trauma. When he came back, Joseph Breuer, who was much older teamed up with him and he had a very clear idea about trauma. So between the 2 of them, they not only brought out the fact that when we've been traumatized, it can have a long term effect and I don't know if you've read those early papers from that time, but and of course the title for illness that time of what we now call neuropathy was hysteria. But they said and this is what interests me so much. Hysterics suffer mainly from reminiscences found to be astonishingly intact to possess a remarkable sensory force and when they return, they acted with all the effective strength of new experience.

Ivor Browne [00:14:11]:
That's exactly what I found. It was one of the things that I say changed my whole direction because when I went to Joshua Bir in 1959, he had set up the 1st proper day hospital in the world. He'd also created a genuine therapeutic community and his aim in life was to get rid of mental hospitals. So he had an enormous influence on me personally. But the other thing that happened during that year was that Sandoz who had I think it was Hoffman had synthesized LSD and they thought it looked like a model psychosis. So they were sending samples around and one of the places got a sample, Stan Graft, I'm sure you know, also got samples of that and that's him in his direction. So we were giving LSD to people. Now, none of us had a clue and I certainly didn't have a clue as to where it could be applicable.

Ivor Browne [00:15:08]:
But you saw very strange experience that happened. You saw people reacting exactly that way, coming up not with memories and if I this is still misunderstood to this day, actually moving into an experience, I call it the frozen present because when it comes, it comes as an experience happening now. To be just one example, I remember when we were working in the old what had been the Protestant Church in Grange Gorman and we'd have 13 or 14 people going through hell. And one woman who'd lost her mother about 10 years before, sat up in the middle of the therapy, wants to go out and arrange the funeral. That's not like ordinary memory. It's she was actually experiencing what is having just died. Sorry. Reliving.

Ivor Browne [00:15:56]:
No, not reliving, living. That's one of the funny the use of language and I was just reading another book called The Haunt Itself by 2 or 3 Dutch therapists and they're still using this term reliving, re experiencing. If you've experienced something, you don't have to experience it again. It's experiencing these things for the first time because they've been frozen. We'll come back to that later. So I was amazed when I saw people. I remember one particular fellow who is a gay Irish fellow and as soon as you gave him about 50 microbounds of LSD, he was very camp, very militant about being gay and so on. Within an hour, he was back at 3 or 4 years of age, weeping and crying for his father and he was in a totally different experience.

Ivor Browne [00:16:51]:
Now I don't I don't remember getting anywhere. When he came out, he went back to his former thing. But nowadays, I would have been able to move something there. So I was amazed that how these quotes fitted so well with what I was saying. The other thing that great point that Freud made at that time was the last sentence, Recollection without effect almost invariably produces no result. In other words, this is a lot of people have an intellectual memory say of their brother or parent or whoever having died. When they move into the experience of the death that they haven't yet experienced, it's a completely different thing. And when they hit that feeling, that's when you see change.

Ivor Browne [00:17:40]:
So it's a very crucial point and Freud pinpointed this. So it seemed to me that he made an amazing breakthrough. Unfortunately, he moved on and he began to see the influence of sexual trauma, sexual abuse and so on, seduction. And they called the seduction theory. I know you know all this,

Professor Ivor Browne [00:18:08]:
but

Ivor Browne [00:18:10]:
the trouble was that he hoist himself on his own. That's hard to say. He focused everything over that. Roy gave up at that point because he didn't like this idea and I think he got a bit frightened. He knew he also saw the kind of social dangers that could land you in. But Freud moved right across everything with sexual trauma and that's when he wrote his paper, Aetiology of of Hysteria. So he unfortunately, he's pinpointed and he was right, of course, about sexual traumas. In fact, far more common than he realized even, but it's not the whole of trauma.

Ivor Browne [00:18:50]:
It's just one form of trauma. So but that got him into considerable difficulty and this is where question came from me. I was seeing these things. I was reading those early papers and then reading his paper, etiology of hysteria. But then and I wrote the book with me just so I could find a few of the quotes. One of the points he made at that time was the fact that these patients never repeat these stories spontaneously nor do they ever in the course of treatment suddenly present the physician with the complete recollection of scenes this kind. 1 only succeeds in awakening the cyclical trace of a precocious sexual event under the most energetic pressure of the analytic procedure and against enormous resistance. Now that's what I found over and over again, hundreds of people that when there's frozen experience, they will they've built up around it, enormous resistance.

Ivor Browne [00:19:58]:
If it's very early, the resistance of most of their life and they'll do anything but look at what that's about. The sort of and people will often in the middle of a session say I'd face anything but this. If they go on and if you can encourage them, they go on through. They say why didn't they do this years ago. It can be as marked as that. So Freud was saying that at that time, but what I couldn't understand when you move on to let me get the dates around now. This is yes, 19, 20th century, it's yes, 18 97. We're still in the century.

Ivor Browne [00:20:45]:
And I got this quote from Ernest Jones' biography. I know you're probably familiar with it, but I'll read it out anyway. Up to the spring of 18 97, Freud still held firmly to his conviction of the reality of child traumas. So strong with Charcot's teaching on traumatic experience and so surely did the analysis of the patients' associations reproduce them. At that time, doubts began to creep in although he made no mention in the records of progress that he was regularly sending to his friend, Fleece. Fleece was this surgeon in Berlin, which you may be familiar. Do you know all this already? Yes. Sort of interested.

Ivor Browne [00:21:25]:
Anyway, but then quite suddenly he decided to confide and fleece the great secret of something which in the past few months has gradually dawned on me. It was the awful truth that most and he never was happy with it for the rest of his life, not all of the seductions in childhood which his patients had revealed and which he had built his whole theory of hysteria never occurred. The letter of 21st September of 18, 97 which he made this announcement to please is the most valuable of that valuable series which was so fortunately preserved. But what got me was there was no explanation. Why did he change his mind? Because he didn't say why. He just said that this was what he found. And I had to wait from 1959 until I think it was 1984 that Masson wrote it. Have you read The Salt Untruth? It's well worth reading.

Ivor Browne [00:22:34]:
I was Ian is back. You'll have to keep an eye on me. We're okay for the moment. But I have to say a bit about this. Masson was the son of a Sanskrit scholar and he was a Sanskrit scholar himself, a young man. But being Jewish, of course, in analysis of kind of a Jewish religion, he went into psychoanalysis. And some of the head cats like Anna Freud and Eisler in New York spotted him and said this is exactly what we need. We need someone to work on the Freud archive in Hampstead.

Ivor Browne [00:23:06]:
And here's a man who's a genuine scholar. So they didn't actually confirm his appointment, but they started him. And he then found a whole group of letters that hadn't been published to police. And this was blew my mind when I read it was first in The New York Times. And so finally, it actually began to answer this question because there were a couple of things that happened. Fleece was a nutcase who actually was abusing his own son, but he had this notion that the nose was an alternative sexual organ. And if you operate on the nose and move, turn the bones or something that you could cure hysteria. So Freud formed these very almost homosexual relationships at different points like you had with Jung later.

Ivor Browne [00:24:00]:
But anyway, he thought this is great and he had this patient. Do you familiar with the story of Emma Eckstein? You all know, no? Anyway, we'll just mention briefly. She became very famous psychoanalyst afterwards, but she was showing a lot of the symptoms of hysteria, cutting herself and all these the typical things we think of in post traumatic stress and Freud invited police to come and he operated on our nose and then he went back to Berlin, but the operation was a success. She shot infected and her nose started to separate and Freud had to call in another surgeon. When the other surgeon came, he cleaned up things and cut something and pulled out about a yard of gauze that fleece had left in her nose. So he not only done a crazy operation, but he botched it. The minute that came out, she bled a flood of blood and lost consciousness and was they thought she was dying. Freud got such a fright, he had to get a glass of brandy in the next office and but she did recover then slowly.

Ivor Browne [00:25:17]:
But this was part of the change. First of all, he delivered this etiology of hysteria to the Neurological Psychiatric Society in Vienna saying that his patients were all being sexually abused, who were the friends or colleagues or sons or daughters of the very people he was talking to in private practice. So he said it sank like a lead balloon and he was saying it was the end, it was the great breakthrough like the source of the Nile. So that happened and almost around the same time he had this debacle with Emma Eckstein who kept bleeding periodically. And then he writes to fleece. This is the letters that Masson uncovered. Anyway, he said that yes, the lecturer the Aetiology of the Hysteria Psychiatry Society received a nice reception from the assets and from Craft Debbie who wrote a lot about sexual pathologies, the strange comment, it sounds like a scientific fairy tale. After this and this after one had demonstrated the source of the Nile, the great trouble finding the source of the Nile.

Ivor Browne [00:26:58]:
In a further letter to Fleece on May 4th, Freud wrote, I'm as isolated you could wish me to be. The word has been given out to abandon me and the void is forming around me. So several things were happening. First of all, his psychoanalysis wasn't working very well. I can't remember read it, but somebody said that Freud was a great therapist when he wasn't practicing psychoanalysis. He always failed when he was. And I think generally psychoanalysis is not a very satisfactory method of therapy. It's very weak, the idea of free association.

Ivor Browne [00:27:30]:
So he was being very isolated. His practice wasn't working, he wasn't getting referrals and then he had a next time leading to that. And then he comes through with this remarkable about face. In 16th April, he delivered the paper in April 18, 'ninety six. And in 16th April 18, 'ninety six, Freud writes to Fleece. He found a completely surprising explanation of Eckstein's hemorrhages, which will give you much pleasure. I've already figured out the story. I should be able to prove to you that you were right that her episodes of bleeding were hysterical.

Ivor Browne [00:28:09]:
This is the woman who almost died from a major hemorrhage were occasioned by longing and probably occurred at sexually relevant times. This was another crazy theory that Fleece had about numbers and periods. On May 4th, he explained further, so far I know that she bled out of longing. She has always been a bleeder when cutting herself in similar circumstances. When she saw how affected I was by her first hemorrhage, she experienced this at the realization of an old wish to be loved in her illness. So he turned and this was probably amazing ability. He could turn the whole thing upside down, go off in the new theory. So his main concern during all that period was for Fleece's reputation.

Ivor Browne [00:28:54]:
He was saying, you know, he made the mistake. He shouldn't have exposed Fleece in this way. And now he's saying that, in fact, her bleeding wasn't due to the botched operation. It was her longing for him to come to see her. So those few things combined seem to turn around and at last give some explanation why he's saying that he didn't any longer believe this reality of sexual abuse. But the tragedy of that is that in 1914 and much later he wrote, when this ideology broke down under the weight of its own improbability and contradiction definitely ascertainable circumstances, the result at first was helpless bewilderment. Analysis had led back to these infantile sexual traumas by the right path and yet they were not true. The firm ground of reality was gone.

Ivor Browne [00:29:57]:
At that time I would gladly have given up the whole work just as my esteemed predecessor, Breuer had done when he made his unwelcome discovery. I think when they got the first case of Section 3, Breuer got frightened. Perhaps I persevered only because I no longer had any choice and could not then take out anything else. But here what he says is, if hysterical subjects trace back their symptoms to traumas that are fictitious, then the new fact which emerges is precisely that they create such scenes in fantasy and this cyclical reality requires to be taken into account alongside practical reality. This reflection was soon followed by the discovery that these fantasies were intended to cover up the autoerotic activity in the 1st years of childhood and that's he says that's when the the whole range of a child's sexual life came to light. So he reversed the whole thing and where he had said that if an adolescent got nervous when being sexually approached, it was because they've been abused earlier. Now he was saying that if if they got nervous in adolescence, it was because they they had been sexual as in in the first years you know the the whole notion of the Oedipus complex and so the whole development of psychoanalysis came out of that then. But the tragedy of it as as I as I see it is that he obscured the difference between reality and fantasy.

Ivor Browne [00:31:30]:
And that has, for a 100 years, really has dogged certainly psychiatry and a lot of psychotherapy. It doesn't matter whether it's true or not. Yeah. I think it matters a hell of a lot whether it's true. And not only that, but we know now how much sexual abuse has been of all kinds, clerical. In other words, far more to say than Freud can see. And the terrible reality of it is still going on. And yet, in effect, psychotherapy for 100 years became incapable of dealing with it because it didn't matter.

Ivor Browne [00:32:05]:
And all you were interested in was little girls flirting with their daddies in the Oedipus complex, which is it happens and this but it's nothing particularly abnormal, you know, in ordinary circumstances. So that's enough about that. I think I'll have to press on now fairly quickly. I'm just deliberating too much. So I'm saying that this is the 2 tragic errors. 1 was the truth that they weren't that this was just fantasy and when I've said all that, yeah, it was blurred and confusion to this day. And I have already read that out to you. So I think the second great contribution seems to me that Freud made was that he hung in with the nastier side of life.

Ivor Browne [00:32:54]:
He never left the family and the conflicts. Whereas Carl Jung and Adler, both and a lot of people since wanted to kind of let's get beyond that nasty bit like a sali only and get on to the nice spiritual activities and peak experiences and all this. But the fact is that we do have to deal with this rather nasty side of life and all the terrible things that do actually happen in families. In case I forgot to say that somebody said I was last night commenting on this film Patrick's Day. I would really love everyone here to see it. It's a brilliant film and it brings out so clearly the sort of things that can happen between a mother and son or between father and mother, which is actually in it there too. I don't know if you know the 3 or 4 proofs that Jesus Christ was really Irish. No? He didn't say anything.

Ivor Browne [00:33:51]:
Well, first of all, he was 30. He was hanging around with the boys. He wasn't living. He was worried they'd run out of drink. And he thought his mother was a virgin, and she thought he was God. He had to be Irish. A virgin. But I mean, it's a stereotype, but it's also sadly very true because boys brought up like that become very inadequate husbands.

Ivor Browne [00:34:15]:
So mothers then focus on their male offspring, are one of them. And, of course, they turn out to be an adequate husband in turn. And the whole thing of the virgin mother and the, and the god son develops. And it it, you know, it's a joke, but it also has rather sad implications. It really is in there behind us the whole right thing of that film. So you must see it. It's going on general circuit now. Patrick's Day.

Ivor Browne [00:34:46]:
Has anyone seen it yet? No? I have only a picture. What? You saw it? Yeah. Not the

Professor Ivor Browne [00:34:53]:
whole thing, little clips on the

Ivor Browne [00:34:54]:
Oh, yeah. Now it's worth seeing the whole film. In fact, because even though I saw it again last night, even I hadn't even picked up that that you could see she comes at one point in mother house, it's satisfied and how hard she was. The husband just opted out. So it was really and then she comes and focused totally on enveloping the sun. And it was about love, but love can turn upside down and become a distortion and become very dangerous. It's like caring to be a very dangerous thing. So that was I think as I say, the second point of Freud.

Ivor Browne [00:35:32]:
He stuck to that semi side of life and worked away at us in his different ways even though a lot of what he did was wrong. But the trouble with that it seems to me that because of his messianic aspirations, that he wants to find the ultimate truth and things like the Oedipus complex that has to apply to everyone. So how do you make any distinction then between where it's not very pleasant like sexual abuse and where it's just a factor of a child loving her mother and father. So I think that was because he had to find universal principles. That was what he was searching for. But it really wasn't helpful when it came to therapy. So that was the second aspect and I think the way again that it didn't work out as it might have. I think the 3rd great contribution to my mind is the defense mechanisms.

Ivor Browne [00:36:28]:
I don't think we need to spend time on that, but I mean we all have these to a greater or less extent. And this area of the frozen present of course is an extreme example of defense. So that not only you don't know what you're afraid of what happened, but you know intimately and sensitively what to avoid. So say if a woman was raped in a lift, she'll avoid going into a lift, but you may not know that she was ever raped. So those are the 3 contributions I felt that endure and what Freud did and are still valuable. Now coming on to Adler, this is much less known. But First of all, Adler was the 1st rebel. He became unhappy with Freud's emphasis on sexuality in Libya as Young did afterwards.

Ivor Browne [00:37:34]:
And Adler had been a sickly child, so he had made a major thing about overcoming deficits. A lot of people know that about him, compensation for weakness, but that's by no means the important things of what he did. The main difference between him and Freud was he was a very strong extrovert whereas Freud was a very much introverted and searching for truth. Adler was a real doctor who wanted to help people. But he I can go fairly quickly through. He first of all he related to others as human beings and that's what I learned from more Joshua in his pupil. He used to say that Joshua was more brilliant than Adlerian, but because he had his own way of thinking things. But Adler started there for the 1st child guidance clinic and he would have whole families and other community members.

Ivor Browne [00:38:32]:
People later did that, but he was the first. He gets no recognition for doing any of this. He was the first to really work with the psychotic young person as a human being, again written out of history. So the other thing is this great German word, which is some hard to translate into English, but something like a sense of community, of relationship. And so he had a very strong social influence and that's why he would have different groups of people in. He gradually moved more and more into education and education of children and so on. But that was a very central thing and probably the most important contribution he was making. And of course, that's come back since with community psychiatry such as it is and the whole notion of social psychiatry.

Ivor Browne [00:39:33]:
The interesting thing as I say is that, I said that, 1st child guide in clinics dealt with whole families, teachers and others. And often, it's described in the literature that when he would focus on one child in the family, others who were just there listening would get the message and they'd make major change. Now you could say, it brings up question about confidentiality and so on. But he did open things out and in the process got rid of a lot of secrets and dishonesty that goes on in families. And he really was the originator of Family Therapy also, But again, no credit to him for and if you like, he was also the pioneer in terms of preventive psychiatry. He felt that he went back and worked with children, then although it's a chicken and egg thing because when you work with children, you find you're working with the adult parents again. So he's been said to be the father therefore of ego psychology and a lot of sort of and he was much more hands on that way. He was less interested in the past.

Ivor Browne [00:40:48]:
And that's I think Freud's strength. But he would be very much doing the sort of things that people are now talking about under the heading of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, changing your way of handling your life in the present. So the other thing that he saw, he'd as I said, minimum interest really in the past other than overcoming weaknesses and that's excuse me. So he felt you had to try and find the goal, help the person to find the goal of the direction that could make sense of their life. And of course, that's a very important thing. I'll say a bit more about that later. So those are the main things to do with Adler. But I think the deficit was that he didn't have any much insight into trauma and that's where I found Joshua had departed from him and he was he paid great attention to the sort of thing that Freud had been started and and, the whole notion that trauma can have long term effects.

Ivor Browne [00:42:07]:
So this is the interesting thing to say that nearly all of those things that Adler started, Freudians later, people like Eric Fromm, Assagioli with the psychosynthesis, Maslow, all these. Maslow. All of these brought in these changes later, but not one of them ever mentioned that which is the interesting thing I think. And I would never have heard of him if I hadn't got to Joshua and also then got to America from that and got hold of the notion of immunity and so on. So that's all I have to say. Is there anything that you feel left out about Adler? But you can see Adler gets a bit of

Professor Ivor Browne [00:42:51]:
credit in America. Adlerian psychology gets a bit of credit in America. I mean, you know

Ivor Browne [00:42:57]:
Yeah. There's a small group of Adlerian, but they're still kind of shut off. I remember I went to an Adlerian course when I was with Joshua and there was a little old fellow with big boots. I don't know if you remember him. And he took me scrupulous notes of everything this Jan and obviously heard it year after year. But it was completely locked off. It was not connected to anything else. So now moving on to Carl Jung.

Ivor Browne [00:43:22]:
So Adler left Freud in 18/11 1911, sorry, get the dates wrong all the time. Jung didn't pay any attention much to that. He was still working actively and he'd been made sort of the central person in psychoanalysis. And Freud saw him as the person who could really take over psychoanalysis. Freud was very aware that being a kind of Jewish system that unless he could get out of that and get some gentile to open it up more, it would never spread. It would remain a kind of Jewish ghetto. So he was very conscious of that and he looked he thought Jung was going to be his son and really opened the whole thing out. And that's where Carl Jung didn't like that picture.

Ivor Browne [00:44:18]:
But as I say, when Adler was saying the same kind of things, he didn't pay any attention. He was at the time actually writing this book he wrote first thing he was already becoming very unhappy about Freud's sexual idea of libido. He felt it and I think you're right that another aspect Libbey would say is sort of life energy in a much more general sense. So he was writing this book, Transformations and Symbols of libido. And it was published in 1911 at the very time that Adler was going through his rebellion and Freud was very angry and it was a pretty nasty period. So he was already departing for Freud, but he didn't it only came out then later finally in 1912. And this was a bitter disappointment to Freud. And then I thought again a bit like his Patchen letters to Freud.

Ivor Browne [00:45:19]:
I'm in no way exclusively stemmed from Freud. I had my scientific attitude on the theory of complex before I met Freud, which is accurate. The teachers that influenced me above all are Bleuler who Eugene Bloillar, the older one who coined the term schizophrenia and Pierre Janet who also made a major contribution and he was the closest to what I've been trying to understand under the term frozen present. And in fact, in this book, I wrote paper called Unassimilated Happenings. That's a direct quote from a section of one of Janney's books. So I thought he was I don't know who I don't know much who are the great hypnosis here because Thierry was one of the great you're a major Hypnosis. Do you know about Fleur? I don't know much about Fleur. But there were a number of French like Bernheim, there were a number of people working at hypnosis at that time.

Ivor Browne [00:46:34]:
So I think Young then made extraordinary number really of important contribution when you think of it. Always in a very generalized sense, he'd hint at things, but he wouldn't sort of try to really pin them down. So his association test, did you see that? What was the film called a dangerous something? Dangerous Minds. Yes, he was doing the association test with that woman as well as screwing her. And he was a devil because he used to be screwing some patient while his wife was actually cooking the dinner, which is something of a departure from proper ethics. But anyway, he also, and I think this was very important, talked about different types of personality at 4 major types. There was a simplified way I would think it would be most useful is the notion of introversion, extroversion. Because this is one of the big difficulty with psychiatry.

Ivor Browne [00:47:45]:
As soon as you mention any kind of characteristic like being rather introverted, it's immediately pathologized over to become Asperger Syndrome. Now they've done away with Asperger Syndrome to the consternation of the Asperger Society. This only just shows the nonsense that goes on. But in fact, Jung really made this distinction. There's no implication of something wrong in saying someone's introvert or extrovert. You can have an equally good life trajectory, if you work as well. So some of the great comedians are typically extroverted, particularly great Jewish comedians or people like Billy Connolly, Spike Milligan and they have a very cyclotime easily changing mood and when they're high of course they have all these associations that they make them very funny. So they can do very well along that dimension.

Ivor Browne [00:48:44]:
But that's a tragic failure, I think, to not separate basic type of personality from the pathological aspects of it when things go wrong. And because of that, that's one of the reasons I think psychiatrists invented all these mythical illnesses like schizophrenia and this awful thing of bipolar. Even in the psychiatric literature, what it was called manic depression was considered and was quite rare. And what generally have you waited long, had a fairly good outcome. Now every second person that comes to me is bipolar. And it's very clearly created by the drugs. And I was wondering how did it how did it kind of catch on. I found then a fellow called beberman in the States made this his vocation.

Ivor Browne [00:49:34]:
He since I don't know if he's in jail, but he certainly was was brought to book because he was taking money from pharmaceutical companies and everything. But he let the cat out of the bag and now everyone is being diagnosed as bipolar, clearly produced by the antidepressants mainly and what they call rapid cycling. So the other thing he did was these and I'm sure you've all read those, I think the 3 essays on synchronicity. I mean that was again a sort of quick insight, but not push it not developing that much further. But still something that's coming back all the time and is being developed. The notion that not only do things connect and if you go to the quantum area that everything is interconnected below the surface. But that the outside environment matches your inner experience. This is what Jung pinpointed.

Ivor Browne [00:50:34]:
And that's I think being recognized slowly more and more. So that was another major contribution. And then he, he also made the connection then for to what the quantum physicists were already coming up with about the interconnections of everything. I don't know if you've read this book, wholeness and the implicate order. David Bohm, who was actually a student of Einstein, it's a beautiful book and he makes this point that above the line and the kind of practical world, everything is disconnected. We're all separate cells and of course, medicine even exemplifies that all the more by not connecting anything. But below the level, once you move down to subatomic realities, it turns into patterns and everything is interconnected. And of course, that's beginning to appear at the macroscopic level now that we're also interconnected much more than we thought.

Ivor Browne [00:51:38]:
So Jung pointed to that too. He, a bit like Adler, started to look to the future, but he also did look to the past And he had worked quite intensely with traumatic situation like that woman in the film. I can't think of her name. But he did still see the the future, the goal as more important. So he was moving across and and so the same thing as Adler said, you've got to try and help the person to find the direction that can make sense of their lives. I often think good friend of mine, Sebastian Barriek, as a joke, I call him mister Asperger. He if he hadn't found the channel of writing, I think he could well be what we call him schizophrenic. Because he's naturally goes into his inner world.

Ivor Browne [00:52:29]:
But he's found a channel. Now he can give a wonderful talk and you and he can be has a family and everything is. You know he's developed a whole social side. So just an example I think what can happen if you can find the direction. And then, I had a passage here that I wanted to come to. That's okay. I think you're paid. That's okay.

Ivor Browne [00:52:59]:
They have those little yolks. The trouble is you can never find what you want. Yeah. This paragraph, I think it may be in the big how many have got that big red book? Yes. I've never read the whole of it. I read parts and I read the introduction which is very lengthy. He said a more or less superficial layer of the unconscious and definitely personal that he would share someone with Freud. I call it the own personal unconscious, but this personal unconscious rests upon a deeper layer, which does not derive from personal experience and is not a personal acquisition, but is inborn.

Ivor Browne [00:53:37]:
This deeper layer I call the collective unconscious and then he developed the whole archetype idea. And of course that fits then with, now I've lost your little yoke.

Professor Ivor Browne [00:53:49]:
I don't like it.

Ivor Browne [00:53:53]:
It makes a connection then with the wisdom of the East both in China and India because these Rishi is going back 10000 years. We're seeing this connection that that this deeper unconscious merges out whether the true self is not an ego self, but it actually merges with the universal. So try to get our young again was was pointing at this in the way that he did and a lot of work has been done then. You know, you find a child in New York and primary school drawing the ouroboros, the snake with the tail in his mouth and all that kind of stuff. I don't have to watch. Are we already getting out of time? So I'll have to press on. But there's a paragraph here I did want to read out from the red book. He said, the period first of all, he was having he went down into this, we did the year at the very time he was breaking from Freud.

Ivor Browne [00:55:05]:
It wasn't really much to do with Freud. He was always fascinated by mythology and so on. He went down into his unconscious and he went through ferocious things of seeing all kinds of demons and all. But one of the things in the red book that says that he was horrified by visions and dreams of mass destruction. And he thought he was he said himself, he thought he was going schizophrenic, he was going psychotic. And then when the war started in 1914, he got a great sense of relief. He realized this is what he was actually seeing ahead of time was this awful destruction of the Great War and he felt very relieved. But he said, the period of which I've spoken to you when I pursued the inner images were the most important time in my life.

Ivor Browne [00:55:53]:
Everything else is to be derived from this. It began at that time and later details hardly matter anymore. My entire life consisted in elaborating what had burst forth from the unconscious and flooded me like an enigmatic stream and threatened to break me. That was the stuff and material for more than only one life. So he said in effect that all he did after that was sort of extrapolating. As very often happens, youngish people hit their creative period and then they spend the rest of their life sort of working it out, But at my age, you don't get many creative ideas. So he was quite clear that there were two forms of thinking and at first he had no time for this. That's one of the pictures in the red book of these images that came to him.

Ivor Browne [00:56:46]:
He wanted to be a scientist and he said he didn't like this thing of fantasy thinking. Then he went down to his unconscious. Then he realized that there were 2 things, verbal and logical signs which he still held on to one event and then passive associative imagistic mythology. So that was where he connected so many things together. That's another of the pictures from the Red Book And he drew these and even the writing in German, not that I can read the German, it's very beautiful. And that's the quote I was reading out to you. Okay. So the ancient Rishis, I'm saying he connected with them and also Jewish, Christian and Sufi Mystic.

Ivor Browne [00:57:33]:
So he was very interested in the whole of spirituality in effect and I think he would have been clear enough about the difference between religion and spirituality, which I think is fundamental. You see this thing of, what's the name of the fellow with gayborn? Stephen Fry. What? Stephen Fry. Yeah. I mean that seems to me an extraordinary failure of atheists to understand what they're saying. Yes. But also to answer his criticism of God, you would have to do away with any idea of free will. In other words, that we have a part.

Ivor Browne [00:58:17]:
When you actually look at evolution, it's been a partnership not just as humans or even as animals, but right back into atomic things. From the beginning, whatever starts the creation, we've been part of it developing it actively working at it. And he's missing that completely. So in other words, for his version of God to work, you would have to actually be we'd have to be a crowd of passive robots. Completely incapable of yeah. And and he just completely misses

Professor Ivor Browne [00:58:47]:
that. Mhmm. And I hope we are looking to fall to their life, you were to accept this to

Ivor Browne [00:58:55]:
Yeah. Well, I think that's the failure and then sort of thinking paper in this, I called what I called it now, might be interest just to look at it. Love and respect for freedom I call it because if you think about it the only way we can actually use our freedom is if we do the will of God. If we do anything else we get into trouble. You know I should be free to go and screw any woman or man as I like but you get a sexual addiction. If you I should be free to take any drugs and I should be free to drink. All of those things lead into slavery. The only thing that can actually work is to use her potential for freedom.

Ivor Browne [00:59:43]:
To do what makes sense, which is I don't like the term God, but, so those are again pictures from the big book. So since then, since you've had Otto Rank, Viktor Frankl, Martin Buber, Eric Ram, Roberto Assagioli, Carl Rogers, all making the central point of moving on. And it seems to me that I've only 5 minutes left now. I'm only halfway through. It does seem to me that there are 2 halves to therapy. The first half, you know, where there's a lot of trauma and so on, or just whatever form of family influences, where you have to go down into the nasty things. And then the second half is moving in the opposite direction and closing the thing down and finding the direction for the person. So there are 2 in a way quite discreet halves.

Ivor Browne [01:00:52]:
But if you try to jump over to the nice part without doing the nasty work, it doesn't work. Equally, if you just get stuck with the nastiness, again, person is stuck. I have one fellow at the moment now who's just been doing all this and regression activity. He's so opened up. He can't even piece in a totally dependent position. With about 10 people trying to help him. None of them can do anything because he's not doing anything himself. So quick word about my old boss.

Ivor Browne [01:01:24]:
Only you say much except to say he turned the whole direction of my life. Joshua's dream was to get rid of mental hospitals and he was intensely very much an Adler pupil. He was very intensely sociable. In the very when he came over, he escaped out of Nazi Germany. And, he was even interviewed by Adolf Eichmann. I was standing in and he managed to get escape out of that. But when he went over, he had no English. And yet, the little woman who had German, who was in the day hospital said that he would sit down with a young schizophrenic and he'd break through to them.

Ivor Browne [01:02:01]:
And now I saw him do this. I mean one day I was over in his office because I had a year of kind of psychoanalysis with him and this young girl wrote in, he was completely mute. Hadn't spoken to anyone. In an hour, he had her chatting and I saw him do this over and over again by just moving in to the heart and into the relationship. So he was a great old character, but also a bit of a psychopathic. He had a number of wives and so on, But anyway, so that's far for the course. But he did combine like he realized the importance really of trauma and all that side of things and with working with the LSD at the time as well as seeing the social side that happened. So that was mainly the way he was looking at things.

Ivor Browne [01:02:53]:
And the year I was there, we have saw over a 1000 people, only 20 had to go into mental hospital and they were all at the weekend because it was not later he opened at the weekend. So it was really quite remarkable and a lot of that work has been done by others. And again his strength all the time was that you're dealing and that's all I try to do now is to relate to people as human beings. I don't relate to patients or clients or even worse service users. That's the most awful phrase that we've ever done. Completely depersonalized. He didn't know about systems theory where we've had 50 years now of developing alternative science, but he was sensing it was there. And he had a lot to say about transference and countertransference.

Ivor Browne [01:03:49]:
He felt if you just worked with the one person that you could get into quite a hole. Whereas if you open the thing out and work in terms of getting the person to move into their own experience, then you don't have so much problems with transference. But now that Ian is looking at me, I can't go into that much detail. And he he was insistent on the whole thing of a person realize and doing the work. And that would those are the things I learned that have just in the rest of my life. I wasted too much and I was saying there he was able to break through into the glass wall. So I saw all of these things happening and it was a great experience. This is one of the things he said.

Ivor Browne [01:04:36]:
I believe there's no cure without change. There's no change without incentive. There's no incentive without meaning. The new meaning of life has to be experienced, and there's no experience unless patients are helped into a position where they can do things for themselves and carry responsibility for their own mistakes. That really hits center as far as I'm concerned. So I don't need to really say that much more. That's just a summary slide of trying to say what I felt were the main contributions of the 3 boys. And if we could now as some people are beginning to use all of those insights, I think then we'd be somewhere near to finding out what psychotherapy is.

Ivor Browne [01:05:22]:
And then, of course, you have this quite separate development from Pavlov in Russia. I remember meeting when I was in the Mass General in Boston. A fellow said, there's no mind, there's no brain even. There's just conditioned reflexes. You're shouting at me. Such an utter garbage. So Pavlov pinned down doesn't know about the reality of condition of reflexes. And you can have Pavlov's wife said he had the house full of slavering dogs, dripping saliva.

Ivor Browne [01:05:56]:
But it moved on then to behavioral therapy. People like Skinner, Ballpin. There was a great tradition in America of behavioral therapy but again very narrow sort of so too limited too limited then we move on with Aaron Beck to accepting that there is some kind of a mind in there or a brain and therefore you need to address that and then you get on to cognitive behavior therapy. We try to change attitude. Now that on the Thursday CBT and now the dialectical behavior therapy, which is again moving a bit closer to psychotherapy and and then cognitive analytic therapy. So if they would if they could only move on and actually start being practicing psychotherapy to solve things and that, which would include the cognitive and the behavioral aspect. It's a valid dimension. So that's again just a summary.

Ivor Browne [01:06:48]:
Am I okay to go on for a little while? Are you all bored, Stephen? No. Just trying to look at what does the therapist do? What the person seeks help, they have to appear. They have to undertake the work of pain and they have to suffer the pain. And my several spiritual masters have made this point that we only grow actually when we suffer and when we accept it. We don't grow even I'd be hopefully watching the match this afternoon. I'm not going to grow by watching that, But it's nice experience. When you get a nice experience, you can enjoy it. But you grow when you have to suffer and accept it.

Ivor Browne [01:07:31]:
If you don't accept it, you don't you just have more suffering and it doesn't achieve anything. So the acceptance is crucial. So and I mean, any real change involves suffering, even if you decide to look at this, to try and learn a language, it's painful. Whatever new thing you try to take up, I've been trying to learn Irish at 86. And it's painful. So the therapist there for his primary guide and you have to establish trust. And the change has been for me has been coming more and more of relating heart to heart rather than the brain. It seems to me that the West is intoxicated with brain activity.

Ivor Browne [01:08:21]:
And in fact, even science is starting to show now that the heart is our real center and there are more messages going from the heart to the brain and the 2 work together than the brain to the heart. There's something like 40,000 neurons in the heart. This has its own mini brain. It's also more gentle, but more powerful than the brain. If you want to measure the brain, you have to put electrodes right on here. If you want to measure the heart, you can actually measure it outside the body altogether. You know, we need to do a cardio graph. So and therefore, the more you can move it seems to me in that direction, the more therapy seems to happen automatically.

Ivor Browne [01:09:00]:
You find that you're less involved and the person is very clearly doing the work, but they can't do it on their own. And that seems to me to be central to therapy because they're so full of defenses and resistances. And therefore, a big job of the therapy I think is to create an aura of safety. I think I should mention actually have you heard of Brian Weiss? Yes. He's coming on the 28th May at last I was writing to him and ask him and he couldn't get any good of him. Now he says he's definitely coming and he'd probably do a big workshop. But using some of his sort of methods, I have one particular woman and they often use the light like he does coming down through the body and she felt it was a yellow light and she's able to go into a pretty awful abuse because she feels quite safe within that yellow light. So simple things like that.

Ivor Browne [01:09:57]:
It's not rocket science. It's essential and here's this nice thing of person going through a beautiful garden. So you're building a protective surround. And it's an incident where was I reading that? It's interesting that if you bring the light outside then it's like a cocoon and what the animal workers found if you you know the cocoon of a caterpillar and the caterpillar has to burst out with a lot of work. If you open it up artificially, that the butterfly will never fly. He'll only fly if he does the work, which again is a manifestation of what Landmark talked about as it came from Darwin. These are all things that we could discuss for another few hours. So that's another point, it seems to me.

Ivor Browne [01:10:53]:
I'm saying about the past. In fact, when you're working with trauma, you're never working with the past. You're working with what's there now. Even if what's there now is from a past life, it's still what's what's in the person now. Because we get into the past, we're trying to think we're dealing with the past. Whatever happened has happened. It's what's been frozen or half stored and hasn't got properly into memory. That's what we have to work with and that involves the person then going through the pain of experiencing it.

Ivor Browne [01:11:26]:
So that seems to me the way it works. I don't need to spend time. That's just saying sort of work why free association is far too weak. If you can get parts to the free association, they're blue in the face, and they won't go near there. That's painful. So it just doesn't work. I remember Bader had a funny story in the there was great cafe life in Vienna before the Nazis moved in. And this analyst was working with the fellow, but he was pretty bored and he felt he'd make a cup of coffee.

Ivor Browne [01:11:57]:
So he turned on his tape recorder and went off for a cup of coffee. 10 minutes later, the fellow himself, patient whatever you would call him, came into the cafe. He said you're supposed to be going through your analysis. No I turned on my tape recorder to talk to your tape recorder. So that's what I was saying a bit about there about the heart being really central and the strongest influence. And this whole man that had the most influence on my life other than Joshua. Because his nickname was Babaji. Not Not Babaji.

Ivor Browne [01:12:38]:
There are a lot of Babaji's. He has a name that was derived from because he was a simple court clerk. But he said the heart is the seat of the soul. It's not enough to love. 1 must become love. And I think that is in a way gives an insight whatever God may be, that it's a center of love. Certainly not a person. This thing in the Irish Times this morning about all the people's views of God and they're all they're all kind of person that fills with beers like Santa Claus and so on.

Ivor Browne [01:13:06]:
It's whatever that source is pure love, but it's also active. So it's coming into this planet all the time. But for our hearts are closed, we can't pick it up. It's like having not having the right. Now at the moment, there are probably several million messages going through this room. If you have the right iPhone, you can pick one up. In the same way, I think our hearts can pick up the energy, the most subtle energy if our heart opens. And that's the only purpose of meditation.

Ivor Browne [01:13:38]:
Now so I was reaching so I was telling you just about myself like trying to reach more openness and get more into love. And you find then, as I say, people move and do the work somehow more easily without even necessarily having to use techniques. And that old man I was finding out, all he had to do was look at you. You could see the whole picture. And yet he was a very simple old fellow. So he made a nice phrase there. He said that search and see only the beauty in man and in human beings and around you. Do like the lotus which grows up towards the light, disregarding the mud from which it emerges.

Ivor Browne [01:14:19]:
So we have to work with the mud, but this beautiful flower can eventually come forth. So that was a nice thing. Finally, behind that seems to me that the underlying question, almost all therapy is why am I here, which is Gabor's program. Is there any purpose? I mean, so many people are barely struggling to keep their heads up above water. And with our great North Korean leader now, every one of us owes about 20,000 to the banks and mortgages, all that nonsense. And is there not something more to life than that? Striving to succeed economically and just keep your head above water. I'm finished now. Don't worry.

Ivor Browne [01:15:09]:
Relax. One last statement from Victor Franco. Today's man's will of meaning is frustrated on a worldwide scale. Evermore people are haunted by a feeling of meaninglessness, which is often accompanied by a feeling of emptiness or as I used to call it, existential vacuum. And that's how these young girls getting drunk before they go out. All the drugging. All those substitute behaviors. And I think therefore, society is the main part of going towards more degradation.

Ivor Browne [01:15:45]:
But then there's an increasing stream of people who are saying, I don't want to be part of this anymore. And starting to grow vegetables, and some of them are physicists going out, growing their vegetables, and I have to make my bread this afternoon. So that's it.

Professor Ivor Browne [01:16:08]:
I don't know if that's a much interest in This is a small presentation that Ian just wants to make. Just a token of What? Our appreciation. Ian just wants to he is talking there of our appreciation.

Ivor Browne [01:16:20]:
I don't I didn't want to be taking anything. You're not getting anything. Okay.

Professor Ivor Browne [01:16:25]:
I have to get Funny. When yeah. Exactly. When I wanted to get something for Ivor, I made a few inquiries as to what he likes. There's not

Ivor Browne [01:16:35]:
a lot of things he does like. Right? I don't need anything.

Professor Ivor Browne [01:16:38]:
I know he and he doesn't need anything. I was told that as well. Right? So after checking with 3 of his close women in his life

Ivor Browne [01:16:45]:
There's a whole lot of lovely women including I know. I know. I know.

Professor Ivor Browne [01:16:49]:
And including Carmel as well. He said, well, he doesn't drink. He doesn't smoke. He doesn't really go out with women as such. You know?

Ivor Browne [01:16:58]:
Oh, but I

Professor Ivor Browne [01:16:58]:
love them. I know he love I was told that. I don't wanna tell everybody that. So but he does have a love of jazz music.

Ivor Browne [01:17:08]:
So what we

Professor Ivor Browne [01:17:09]:
got was a voucher for you to buy all the jazz music that you would like.

Ivor Browne [01:17:13]:
Uh-huh.

Professor Ivor Browne [01:17:13]:
And I'd like to say, on behalf of everybody here, a very big thank you. No. That's good. That's lovely. Yeah. That's wonderful. And I hope it's just so No. We