{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":0.84,"endTime":3.69,"body":"So I'm absolutely"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":0.84,"endTime":3.69,"body":"delighted today to welcome Dr."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":3.72,"endTime":7.86,"body":"Tim Fawns. Tim, it was one of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":3.72,"endTime":7.86,"body":"your students, Katie Cullum, who"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":7.86,"endTime":12.03,"body":"introduced you to me as someone"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":7.86,"endTime":12.03,"body":"who is ahead of his time about"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":12.03,"endTime":16.2,"body":"how he thinks that adult"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":12.03,"endTime":16.2,"body":"learners should learn. So this"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":16.2,"endTime":20.1,"body":"was in the context of clinical"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":16.2,"endTime":20.1,"body":"education and digital education."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":20.52,"endTime":23.61,"body":"And I've met Katie through an"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":20.52,"endTime":23.61,"body":"amazing network that I've got"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":23.61,"endTime":27.21,"body":"around the Whose Shoes work"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":23.61,"endTime":27.21,"body":"we're doing in neonatal care."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":27.66,"endTime":30.0,"body":"And we can perhaps talk about"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":27.66,"endTime":30.0,"body":"that a bit more in terms of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":30.0,"endTime":34.56,"body":"networking and how important it"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":30.0,"endTime":34.56,"body":"is. So Tim, can you tell us a"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":34.56,"endTime":37.26,"body":"little bit more about yourself,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":34.56,"endTime":37.26,"body":"and what's important to you?"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":37.78,"endTime":40.51,"body":"Sure. Thanks a lot,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":37.78,"endTime":40.51,"body":"Gill, for having me on this"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":40.51,"endTime":44.35,"body":"podcast. It's a very exciting"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":40.51,"endTime":44.35,"body":"moment for me. And thanks as"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":44.35,"endTime":47.56,"body":"well to Katie for putting us in"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":44.35,"endTime":47.56,"body":"touch. Katie is one of our"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":47.59,"endTime":51.79,"body":"students, or she's a graduate"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":47.59,"endTime":51.79,"body":"now actually, on our online"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":51.79,"endTime":54.7,"body":"Master's in clinical education"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":51.79,"endTime":54.7,"body":"at the University of Edinburgh."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":54.94,"endTime":57.82,"body":"And I teach on that programme"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":54.94,"endTime":57.82,"body":"and it's wonderful in terms of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":57.82,"endTime":62.02,"body":"networking, because we have lots"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":57.82,"endTime":62.02,"body":"and lots of students come"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":62.02,"endTime":65.29,"body":"through each year and they are"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":62.02,"endTime":65.29,"body":"clinicians, and they're clinical"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":65.29,"endTime":70.48,"body":"educators. So they are teachers"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":65.29,"endTime":70.48,"body":"who teach other clinicians, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":70.48,"endTime":75.64,"body":"we educate them about education."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":70.48,"endTime":75.64,"body":"So it's very sort of meta, if"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":75.64,"endTime":80.23,"body":"you like. But what's great about"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":75.64,"endTime":80.23,"body":"it is that we end up with a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":80.23,"endTime":84.91,"body":"really large network of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":80.23,"endTime":84.91,"body":"international educators, some of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":84.91,"endTime":89.47,"body":"whom are quite influential, many"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":84.91,"endTime":89.47,"body":"of whom are very, very"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":90.07,"endTime":93.4,"body":"knowledgeable in various areas."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":90.07,"endTime":93.4,"body":"So they bring a lot of knowledge"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":93.43,"endTime":96.19,"body":"to that programme. And I learned"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":93.43,"endTime":96.19,"body":"a lot through that, and my"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":96.19,"endTime":100.93,"body":"colleagues do too. I also have a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":96.19,"endTime":100.93,"body":"background in digital education."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":100.96,"endTime":105.4,"body":"I was never a clinician, but I"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":100.96,"endTime":105.4,"body":"came through as a learning"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":105.4,"endTime":107.8,"body":"technologist working in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":105.4,"endTime":107.8,"body":"department of Clinical"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":107.8,"endTime":111.55,"body":"Psychology at the University of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":107.8,"endTime":111.55,"body":"Edinburgh, before moving on to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":111.55,"endTime":114.91,"body":"become a lecturer in clinical"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":111.55,"endTime":114.91,"body":"education with a kind of digital"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":114.91,"endTime":118.57,"body":"education background, I did a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":114.91,"endTime":118.57,"body":"master's in digital education at"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":118.57,"endTime":122.47,"body":"Edinburgh. I also did a PhD in"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":118.57,"endTime":122.47,"body":"technology and education at"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":122.47,"endTime":128.32,"body":"Edinburgh. So one of my big"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":122.47,"endTime":128.32,"body":"interests is in how technology"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":128.71,"endTime":133.12,"body":"relates to education, and then"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":128.71,"endTime":133.12,"body":"how all of that relates to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":133.12,"endTime":137.02,"body":"clinical education. So I have a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":133.12,"endTime":137.02,"body":"sort of interdisciplinary mix,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":137.11,"endTime":137.62,"body":"to me."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":138.44,"endTime":141.86,"body":"That's really"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":138.44,"endTime":141.86,"body":"interesting. So I mean, this"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":141.86,"endTime":145.46,"body":"isn't my area. I mean, I think"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":141.86,"endTime":145.46,"body":"the nearest that I can relate"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":145.46,"endTime":148.31,"body":"to, and I guess it is quite"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":145.46,"endTime":148.31,"body":"similar, I work with the Darzi"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":148.31,"endTime":152.69,"body":"fellows with London Southbank"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":148.31,"endTime":152.69,"body":"University. So professor Becky"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":152.69,"endTime":155.78,"body":"Malby has got me involved using"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":152.69,"endTime":155.78,"body":"Whose Shoes with their"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":155.78,"endTime":159.74,"body":"coproduction module. And I meet"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":155.78,"endTime":159.74,"body":"clinicians from all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":159.74,"endTime":163.85,"body":"different backgrounds. So I"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":159.74,"endTime":163.85,"body":"suppose in terms of how I see"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":163.85,"endTime":166.52,"body":"them learning, and I think you"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":163.85,"endTime":166.52,"body":"described, and perhaps you could"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":166.52,"endTime":169.49,"body":"talk a bit more in a minute,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":166.52,"endTime":169.49,"body":"about your collegiate system of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":169.49,"endTime":172.34,"body":"learning. I see that as a big"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":169.49,"endTime":172.34,"body":"synergy, I think, in terms of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":172.34,"endTime":175.52,"body":"how Professor Malby works with"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":172.34,"endTime":175.52,"body":"her students in terms of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":175.79,"endTime":179.42,"body":"bringing all the expertise in"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":175.79,"endTime":179.42,"body":"the room, rather than just an"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":179.42,"endTime":181.94,"body":"expert imparting facts."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":182.92,"endTime":186.46,"body":"Well, yeah, we work"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":182.92,"endTime":186.46,"body":"very much to this kind of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":186.46,"endTime":189.91,"body":"aspirational model that we've"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":186.46,"endTime":189.91,"body":"developed together. So my close"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":189.91,"endTime":193.06,"body":"colleagues, Jill Aitken and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":189.91,"endTime":193.06,"body":"Derek Jones, who have been on"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":193.06,"endTime":196.6,"body":"the programme for a while"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":193.06,"endTime":196.6,"body":"they've been instrumental in"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":196.6,"endTime":200.17,"body":"helping us develop a programme"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":196.6,"endTime":200.17,"body":"philosophy and we talk about"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":200.17,"endTime":205.21,"body":"that across the wider team. We"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":200.17,"endTime":205.21,"body":"spent just an awful lot of time"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":205.63,"endTime":209.65,"body":"in conversation about what is it"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":205.63,"endTime":209.65,"body":"that we value in our educational"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":209.65,"endTime":213.76,"body":"practice? How can we articulate"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":209.65,"endTime":213.76,"body":"that as a sort of philosophical"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":213.76,"endTime":216.85,"body":"position that we can use to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":213.76,"endTime":216.85,"body":"inform everything we do on the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":216.85,"endTime":221.32,"body":"programme? And over the years,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":216.85,"endTime":221.32,"body":"we've honed that into this,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":221.35,"endTime":224.2,"body":"these principles, they are"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":221.35,"endTime":224.2,"body":"aspirational principles of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":224.2,"endTime":228.85,"body":"hospitality, collegiality and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":224.2,"endTime":228.85,"body":"advocacy. And these help us"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":228.85,"endTime":233.35,"body":"guide our decision making. So"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":228.85,"endTime":233.35,"body":"hospitality is the idea that you"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":233.35,"endTime":237.31,"body":"don't prejudge who it is that is"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":233.35,"endTime":237.31,"body":"going to turn up on your"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":237.31,"endTime":239.98,"body":"programme, who the students are"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":237.31,"endTime":239.98,"body":"going to be and you allow them"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":239.98,"endTime":244.69,"body":"to be who they are, and you try"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":239.98,"endTime":244.69,"body":"to make space for them. So part"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":244.69,"endTime":249.04,"body":"of that is not being directive"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":244.69,"endTime":249.04,"body":"about what should be learned,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":249.07,"endTime":253.96,"body":"not being too prescriptive, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":249.07,"endTime":253.96,"body":"trying to bring students into"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":253.99,"endTime":258.25,"body":"the discussions that happen at"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":253.99,"endTime":258.25,"body":"the time and where possible, to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":258.25,"endTime":262.6,"body":"contribute to the future design"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":258.25,"endTime":262.6,"body":"of the programme itself. And"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":262.63,"endTime":266.02,"body":"part of that is an emphasis on"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":262.63,"endTime":266.02,"body":"community building and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":266.02,"endTime":268.66,"body":"relationship building, and I'll"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":266.02,"endTime":268.66,"body":"talk about that a bit later."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":268.66,"endTime":271.21,"body":"Because there's a lot to say"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":268.66,"endTime":271.21,"body":"about how we go about building"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":271.21,"endTime":275.17,"body":"relationships with our students."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":271.21,"endTime":275.17,"body":"But we also have this principle"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":275.17,"endTime":278.83,"body":"of collegiality where we try to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":275.17,"endTime":278.83,"body":"position - and I stress really,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":278.83,"endTime":283.09,"body":"these are aspirations that we"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":278.83,"endTime":283.09,"body":"fall short of these aspirations,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":283.12,"endTime":286.09,"body":"in many ways, a lot of the time,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":283.12,"endTime":286.09,"body":"but we always hold those"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":286.09,"endTime":290.2,"body":"aspirations so that we can keep"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":286.09,"endTime":290.2,"body":"going in that direction. So"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":290.2,"endTime":294.37,"body":"collegiality, we try to position"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":290.2,"endTime":294.37,"body":"the students as equal with the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":294.37,"endTime":297.49,"body":"teachers rather than having this"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":294.37,"endTime":297.49,"body":"hierarchy, respecting the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":297.49,"endTime":300.85,"body":"knowledge and expertise and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":297.49,"endTime":300.85,"body":"experiences that they bring to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":300.85,"endTime":305.05,"body":"our course, and learning from"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":300.85,"endTime":305.05,"body":"them as much as they learn from"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":305.05,"endTime":305.53,"body":"us."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":306.25,"endTime":311.05,"body":"And then the final principle is"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":306.25,"endTime":311.05,"body":"advocacy, where we always try to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":311.05,"endTime":314.77,"body":"position ourselves on the same"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":311.05,"endTime":314.77,"body":"side, the same team the same,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":314.92,"endTime":318.67,"body":"well, hopefully, there are no"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":314.92,"endTime":318.67,"body":"sides. But you know, being on"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":318.67,"endTime":322.48,"body":"the same team as the students,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":318.67,"endTime":322.48,"body":"so that if anything goes wrong"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":322.48,"endTime":325.96,"body":"either with what we're doing or"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":322.48,"endTime":325.96,"body":"with what they're doing, that it"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":325.96,"endTime":328.84,"body":"isn't one side judging the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":325.96,"endTime":328.84,"body":"other, but actually working"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":328.84,"endTime":331.93,"body":"together to try and make things"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":328.84,"endTime":331.93,"body":"better. So a good example is,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":332.14,"endTime":334.81,"body":"we're a fully online programme,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":332.14,"endTime":334.81,"body":"there are technical issues that"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":334.81,"endTime":338.47,"body":"come up. And if we do a good job"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":334.81,"endTime":338.47,"body":"of being on the same team, as"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":338.47,"endTime":342.64,"body":"the students, then the students"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":338.47,"endTime":342.64,"body":"don't get annoyed with us for"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":342.64,"endTime":345.67,"body":"technical problems, but they"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":342.64,"endTime":345.67,"body":"just jump in and try to help us"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":345.67,"endTime":348.61,"body":"work through them"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":345.67,"endTime":348.61,"body":"collaboratively. So it's trying"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":348.61,"endTime":351.94,"body":"to create this collaborative"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":348.61,"endTime":351.94,"body":"atmosphere, where teachers and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":351.94,"endTime":356.65,"body":"students all work together on"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":351.94,"endTime":356.65,"body":"this project of their education."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":356.65,"endTime":358.0,"body":"And we learn from that too."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":359.17,"endTime":360.97,"body":"This so"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":359.17,"endTime":360.97,"body":"interesting. And there's so much"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":360.97,"endTime":364.36,"body":"synergy in terms of what I do"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":360.97,"endTime":364.36,"body":"with Whose Shoes and some of our"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":364.36,"endTime":367.75,"body":"really key concepts. So you can"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":364.36,"endTime":367.75,"body":"look on Twitter, there's a big"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":367.75,"endTime":372.25,"body":"hashtag, #NoHierarchyJustPeople."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":367.75,"endTime":372.25,"body":"And that seems very similar,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":372.25,"endTime":375.64,"body":"different context, but when we"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":372.25,"endTime":375.64,"body":"have our workshops, we"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":375.67,"endTime":378.58,"body":"deliberately say, \"Do not"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":375.67,"endTime":378.58,"body":"introduce yourselves around the"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":378.58,"endTime":382.03,"body":"table\". It's not that people are"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":378.58,"endTime":382.03,"body":"hiding who they are. But as soon"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":382.03,"endTime":385.54,"body":"as I say, I'm the chief"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":382.03,"endTime":385.54,"body":"executive, and remind me who you"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":385.54,"endTime":388.9,"body":"are, you get the hierarchy, you"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":385.54,"endTime":388.9,"body":"know, people will not speak"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":388.9,"endTime":392.29,"body":"openly and honestly. But if I'm"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":388.9,"endTime":392.29,"body":"Gill, and you're Tim, and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":392.29,"endTime":394.75,"body":"everybody else has just got a"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":392.29,"endTime":394.75,"body":"name badge, and then it comes up"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":394.78,"endTime":398.02,"body":"naturally, as we've done,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":394.78,"endTime":398.02,"body":"hopefully, who you are and a bit"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":398.02,"endTime":401.2,"body":"more about you and you get to"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":398.02,"endTime":401.2,"body":"know each other as people, then"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":401.23,"endTime":403.57,"body":"you're creating that level"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":401.23,"endTime":403.57,"body":"playing field. And I think"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":403.57,"endTime":405.43,"body":"that's what you're doing with"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":403.57,"endTime":405.43,"body":"your students, which is"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":405.43,"endTime":408.91,"body":"brilliant. And the other thing I"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":405.43,"endTime":408.91,"body":"heard was that being on the same"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":408.91,"endTime":411.7,"body":"team, so it's the same kind of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":408.91,"endTime":411.7,"body":"idea, but a different sort of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":411.7,"endTime":415.69,"body":"slant on it. And one of the most"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":411.7,"endTime":415.69,"body":"powerful cards that we've had"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":415.69,"endTime":418.87,"body":"really one of the most powerful"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":415.69,"endTime":418.87,"body":"scenarios in Whose Shoes has"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":418.87,"endTime":423.4,"body":"been around 'us and them' and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":418.87,"endTime":423.4,"body":"who is your 'us and them'. And"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":423.4,"endTime":426.4,"body":"perhaps some of the work that"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":423.4,"endTime":426.4,"body":"we've done with care homes, it"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":426.4,"endTime":431.08,"body":"might be that the catering staff"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":426.4,"endTime":431.08,"body":"or the care staff, they both"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":431.08,"endTime":434.26,"body":"want the best for the people,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":431.08,"endTime":434.26,"body":"but the practicality of running"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":434.26,"endTime":438.07,"body":"a kitchen and ordering staff"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":434.26,"endTime":438.07,"body":"against the personalization of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":438.07,"endTime":443.08,"body":"people having choice and perhaps"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":438.07,"endTime":443.08,"body":"the farmer who always got up and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":443.08,"endTime":446.05,"body":"had his breakfast at 5 in the"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":443.08,"endTime":446.05,"body":"morning or the woman with"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":446.05,"endTime":449.05,"body":"dementia who might want to"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":446.05,"endTime":449.05,"body":"wander into the kitchen and peel"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":449.05,"endTime":451.45,"body":"carrots all day ... You know,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":449.05,"endTime":451.45,"body":"I'm just coming up with some"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":451.45,"endTime":455.17,"body":"quick examples. But I think as"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":451.45,"endTime":455.17,"body":"soon as people suddenly kind of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":455.2,"endTime":457.72,"body":"almost pop the balloon and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":455.2,"endTime":457.72,"body":"realise that we're all on the"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":457.72,"endTime":461.2,"body":"same team, and all trying to do"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":457.72,"endTime":461.2,"body":"the best but just coming at it"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":461.2,"endTime":463.78,"body":"from different perspectives,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":461.2,"endTime":463.78,"body":"which is of course where Whose"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":463.78,"endTime":466.99,"body":"Shoes comes in. So very, very"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":463.78,"endTime":466.99,"body":"interesting."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":467.47,"endTime":470.71,"body":"Yeah, it is. And it"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":467.47,"endTime":470.71,"body":"really opens up a lot of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":470.71,"endTime":475.21,"body":"possibilities, once you start"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":470.71,"endTime":475.21,"body":"thinking like that. There are,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":475.54,"endTime":477.91,"body":"as I said, it's aspirational. So"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":475.54,"endTime":477.91,"body":"there are things that get in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":477.91,"endTime":483.4,"body":"way - assessment can get in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":477.91,"endTime":483.4,"body":"way, we need to mark the work of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":483.4,"endTime":487.9,"body":"students. evaluations can get in"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":483.4,"endTime":487.9,"body":"the way where students are"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":487.93,"endTime":493.12,"body":"giving feedback on their"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":487.93,"endTime":493.12,"body":"experience of the programme. But"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":493.12,"endTime":496.12,"body":"having said that, actually, you"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":493.12,"endTime":496.12,"body":"can still have open"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":496.12,"endTime":499.54,"body":"conversations about all of these"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":496.12,"endTime":499.54,"body":"things and establish sort of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":499.54,"endTime":503.56,"body":"negotiate how we're all"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":499.54,"endTime":503.56,"body":"approaching them. So we have"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":503.56,"endTime":506.77,"body":"many conversations about"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":503.56,"endTime":506.77,"body":"assessment. Postgraduate is"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":506.77,"endTime":510.22,"body":"quite different from"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":506.77,"endTime":510.22,"body":"undergraduate. And so we can"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":510.22,"endTime":513.73,"body":"have these conversations about"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":510.22,"endTime":513.73,"body":"what the value of having a mark"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":513.73,"endTime":518.8,"body":"is, what it means. To us not"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":513.73,"endTime":518.8,"body":"really that much, because nobody"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":518.8,"endTime":522.13,"body":"will ask a postgraduate student"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":518.8,"endTime":522.13,"body":"on our programme, what mark they"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":522.13,"endTime":525.73,"body":"got after the fact. You get a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":522.13,"endTime":525.73,"body":"qualification. That's good. And"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":525.73,"endTime":529.18,"body":"what's more important to us, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":525.73,"endTime":529.18,"body":"too I think most of our students"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":529.18,"endTime":532.66,"body":"is what they learn. So the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":529.18,"endTime":532.66,"body":"importance of the mark"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":532.81,"endTime":535.75,"body":"disappears a bit or fades into"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":532.81,"endTime":535.75,"body":"the background. And we can have"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":535.75,"endTime":539.11,"body":"these open conversations about"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":535.75,"endTime":539.11,"body":"what what does the mark even"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":539.11,"endTime":542.59,"body":"mean? Is it like just a snapshot"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":539.11,"endTime":542.59,"body":"of what happened right now. And"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":542.59,"endTime":546.31,"body":"actually, we'll get on to I'm"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":542.59,"endTime":546.31,"body":"sure the pandemic but this"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":546.31,"endTime":550.45,"body":"throws a whole different light"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":546.31,"endTime":550.45,"body":"on everything. Because the mark"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":550.45,"endTime":553.78,"body":"you've got during a pandemic is"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":550.45,"endTime":553.78,"body":"probably even less"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":553.78,"endTime":557.89,"body":"representative of you than it"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":553.78,"endTime":557.89,"body":"ever was before, than marks ever"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":557.89,"endTime":563.53,"body":"were before. So I think that the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":557.89,"endTime":563.53,"body":"light that the pandemic has"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":563.53,"endTime":568.48,"body":"shone on education is really"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":563.53,"endTime":568.48,"body":"interesting. But yes, so certain"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":568.48,"endTime":572.26,"body":"structures can make it harder to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":568.48,"endTime":572.26,"body":"have this collegiality in this"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":572.26,"endTime":577.0,"body":"sort of flattened hierarchy. But"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":572.26,"endTime":577.0,"body":"we just continuously work on"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":577.0,"endTime":579.67,"body":"that in discussion with"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":577.0,"endTime":579.67,"body":"students."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":580.59,"endTime":583.86,"body":"So for me, I got"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":580.59,"endTime":583.86,"body":"I think my first lemon lightbulb"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":583.86,"endTime":587.85,"body":"that we were talking before"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":583.86,"endTime":587.85,"body":"about lemon lightbulbs, and that"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":587.85,"endTime":590.97,"body":"the difference between"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":587.85,"endTime":590.97,"body":"undergraduate and postgraduate"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":590.97,"endTime":593.64,"body":"education which I'm sure is"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":590.97,"endTime":593.64,"body":"completely obvious to you, and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":593.64,"endTime":597.09,"body":"it's perhaps obvious to me once"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":593.64,"endTime":597.09,"body":"I think about it, and perhaps"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":597.09,"endTime":599.61,"body":"different relationships with"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":597.09,"endTime":599.61,"body":"students but something I was"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":599.61,"endTime":602.91,"body":"interested in is how you work"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":599.61,"endTime":602.91,"body":"with students. And I know we've"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":602.91,"endTime":606.84,"body":"talked about this a little bit"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":602.91,"endTime":606.84,"body":"beforehand in terms of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":607.11,"endTime":611.31,"body":"equalities and what actually is"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":607.11,"endTime":611.31,"body":"equal. So perhaps if a student,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":611.34,"endTime":614.13,"body":"you might have a brilliant"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":611.34,"endTime":614.13,"body":"student, but then they're not"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":614.13,"endTime":617.88,"body":"well, we're in a pandemic, so"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":614.13,"endTime":617.88,"body":"she's even worse at the moment,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":617.88,"endTime":621.63,"body":"they might have a young family,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":617.88,"endTime":621.63,"body":"how to be fair in terms of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":621.66,"endTime":625.14,"body":"requirements and flexibility of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":621.66,"endTime":625.14,"body":"the course? And do you think"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":625.14,"endTime":628.02,"body":"that's changing as modern"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":625.14,"endTime":628.02,"body":"programmes evolve?"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":628.69,"endTime":633.34,"body":"Yeah, this is a very,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":628.69,"endTime":633.34,"body":"very interesting and complicated"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":633.58,"endTime":639.13,"body":"area - fairness, equality,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":633.58,"endTime":639.13,"body":"equity, etc. And it It relates"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":639.13,"endTime":643.87,"body":"quite closely to principles of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":639.13,"endTime":643.87,"body":"inclusivity and diversity. And,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":643.99,"endTime":647.74,"body":"again, there are many structures"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":643.99,"endTime":647.74,"body":"that can get in the way of how"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":647.74,"endTime":652.66,"body":"we would want to approach equity"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":647.74,"endTime":652.66,"body":"and inclusivity. Assessment is"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":652.66,"endTime":656.02,"body":"one of them, again, because you"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":652.66,"endTime":656.02,"body":"end up kind of funnelling people"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":656.02,"endTime":659.29,"body":"through a certain lens, in some"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":656.02,"endTime":659.29,"body":"ways, when you assess"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":659.65,"endTime":663.46,"body":"summatively, you have criteria,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":659.65,"endTime":663.46,"body":"and everyone needs to meet those"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":663.46,"endTime":666.43,"body":"and you have designs of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":663.46,"endTime":666.43,"body":"assessment that everyone needs"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":666.43,"endTime":669.37,"body":"to conform to, that may or may"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":666.43,"endTime":669.37,"body":"not suit the particular"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":669.37,"endTime":675.19,"body":"individuals. But what we do as a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":669.37,"endTime":675.19,"body":"team is we, we try to use our"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":675.19,"endTime":680.2,"body":"discretion where we can to kind"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":675.19,"endTime":680.2,"body":"of erode some of the hard lines"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":680.2,"endTime":683.92,"body":"here, you know, we try to treat"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":680.2,"endTime":683.92,"body":"each situation on its own"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":683.92,"endTime":687.34,"body":"merits, rather than assuming"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":683.92,"endTime":687.34,"body":"that because a student was late"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":687.34,"endTime":690.79,"body":"handing something in or, or"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":687.34,"endTime":690.79,"body":"whatever that that everyone has"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":690.79,"endTime":692.98,"body":"to be treated the same. We want"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":690.79,"endTime":692.98,"body":"to find out a little bit about"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":692.98,"endTime":697.72,"body":"why that was and tried to be"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":692.98,"endTime":697.72,"body":"lenient. So we would try to err"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":697.72,"endTime":701.74,"body":"on the sort of the side of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":697.72,"endTime":701.74,"body":"lenient and flexibility. But we"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":701.74,"endTime":704.77,"body":"might sometimes be acting"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":701.74,"endTime":704.77,"body":"against institutional policy"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":704.77,"endTime":709.27,"body":"that is the opposite. And, you"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":704.77,"endTime":709.27,"body":"know, let's see who ends up"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":709.27,"endTime":715.06,"body":"coming out on top. And, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":709.27,"endTime":715.06,"body":"there's a, there's a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":715.06,"endTime":717.85,"body":"conversation that I saw"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":715.06,"endTime":717.85,"body":"happening, I think it was on"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":717.85,"endTime":723.04,"body":"Twitter, recently about, to what"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":717.85,"endTime":723.04,"body":"extent might students be using"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":723.07,"endTime":727.12,"body":"the current situation to create"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":723.07,"endTime":727.12,"body":"excuses for handing in work late"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":727.12,"endTime":730.24,"body":"or getting special"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":727.12,"endTime":730.24,"body":"circumstances? And what do we do"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":730.24,"endTime":733.63,"body":"about that, and this might be"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":730.24,"endTime":733.63,"body":"contentious. But my view is, we"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":733.63,"endTime":736.78,"body":"really just need to the default"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":733.63,"endTime":736.78,"body":"position for me has to be"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":736.78,"endTime":743.98,"body":"believing people. People really"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":736.78,"endTime":743.98,"body":"do have a lot going on. People's"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":743.98,"endTime":748.72,"body":"mental health has been stretched"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":743.98,"endTime":748.72,"body":"very far over the last 18 months"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":748.72,"endTime":752.77,"body":"and already before that. So the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":748.72,"endTime":752.77,"body":"greater risk to me is that you"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":752.77,"endTime":756.73,"body":"don't believe someone, than that"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":752.77,"endTime":756.73,"body":"you do believe someone and they"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":756.76,"endTime":761.71,"body":"might take advantage, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":756.76,"endTime":761.71,"body":"discuss but that that's the view"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":761.71,"endTime":765.52,"body":"that we take, because I think we"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":761.71,"endTime":765.52,"body":"need to trust our students, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":765.52,"endTime":769.87,"body":"we need to trust them by"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":765.52,"endTime":769.87,"body":"default. And that trust is then"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":769.87,"endTime":772.27,"body":"the basis for building"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":769.87,"endTime":772.27,"body":"relationships with them where we"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":772.27,"endTime":775.6,"body":"can get to know them and work"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":772.27,"endTime":775.6,"body":"with them. And if it turns out"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":775.6,"endTime":781.03,"body":"that we discover that they were"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":775.6,"endTime":781.03,"body":"kind of stretching the truth or"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":781.03,"endTime":783.58,"body":"whatever, if we ever did"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":781.03,"endTime":783.58,"body":"discover that, then we would"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":783.58,"endTime":786.1,"body":"want to know the reason for that"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":783.58,"endTime":786.1,"body":"as well, we wouldn't assume that"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":786.1,"endTime":790.69,"body":"they did that out of callousness"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":786.1,"endTime":790.69,"body":"or whatever. So the trust is the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":790.69,"endTime":793.3,"body":"basis for the relationship and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":790.69,"endTime":793.3,"body":"the relationship then allows you"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":793.3,"endTime":795.55,"body":"to understand what's actually"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":793.3,"endTime":795.55,"body":"going on, and then that allows"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":795.55,"endTime":797.05,"body":"you to do something about that."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":797.96,"endTime":800.57,"body":"So I'm loving"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":797.96,"endTime":800.57,"body":"this conversation, I think the"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":800.57,"endTime":804.29,"body":"fact that you're talking about"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":800.57,"endTime":804.29,"body":"trust, and how that could be"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":804.29,"endTime":806.72,"body":"controversial, which I can"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":804.29,"endTime":806.72,"body":"absolutely see in the kind of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":807.05,"endTime":810.59,"body":"tensions between perhaps the"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":807.05,"endTime":810.59,"body":"university and standards and,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":810.92,"endTime":813.86,"body":"and again, this is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":810.92,"endTime":813.86,"body":"kind of what I try and do really"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":813.86,"endTime":816.59,"body":"through who she is to tease out"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":813.86,"endTime":816.59,"body":"some of these issues that are a"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":816.59,"endTime":821.21,"body":"bit more complex, and a lot more"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":816.59,"endTime":821.21,"body":"human than perhaps, is obvious,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":821.27,"endTime":824.66,"body":"initially. And it reminds me,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":821.27,"endTime":824.66,"body":"before I set up Whose Shoes, I"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":824.66,"endTime":828.38,"body":"was working in social care,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":824.66,"endTime":828.38,"body":"that's my background. And I was"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":828.38,"endTime":830.81,"body":"around at the time when they"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":828.38,"endTime":830.81,"body":"first started introducing"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":830.81,"endTime":834.95,"body":"personal budgets. And personal"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":830.81,"endTime":834.95,"body":"budgets can be the most amazing"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":834.95,"endTime":839.09,"body":"thing. So for example, I"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":834.95,"endTime":839.09,"body":"remember a mother of a young man"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":839.09,"endTime":842.0,"body":"with learning disabilities and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":839.09,"endTime":842.0,"body":"how they'd been used to having"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":842.3,"endTime":845.63,"body":"ridiculous numbers of carers"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":842.3,"endTime":845.63,"body":"that they didn't know coming in"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":845.63,"endTime":848.66,"body":"and out of their house as if it"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":845.63,"endTime":848.66,"body":"was their house and just so"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":848.66,"endTime":851.69,"body":"impersonal and how they've"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":848.66,"endTime":851.69,"body":"managed to use a personal budget"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":851.69,"endTime":856.37,"body":"to employ people that actually"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":851.69,"endTime":856.37,"body":"related to their son and got him"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":856.37,"endTime":859.43,"body":"doing the things that were"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":856.37,"endTime":859.43,"body":"important to him. But the issue"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":859.43,"endTime":863.96,"body":"that came up was trust. And"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":859.43,"endTime":863.96,"body":"surely these people will go off"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":863.96,"endTime":867.74,"body":"and spend their budgets on"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":863.96,"endTime":867.74,"body":"cigarettes and drugs and alcohol"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":867.74,"endTime":872.12,"body":"and, and it didn't happen"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":867.74,"endTime":872.12,"body":"because people are responsible"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":872.15,"endTime":875.51,"body":"and they have got, they come"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":872.15,"endTime":875.51,"body":"into a situation and certainly"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":875.51,"endTime":879.02,"body":"being a student and the cost of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":875.51,"endTime":879.02,"body":"things these days. They don't"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":879.02,"endTime":882.05,"body":"come lightly they come because"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":879.02,"endTime":882.05,"body":"they really want to or need to"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":882.05,"endTime":885.8,"body":"learn that course. And again, it"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":882.05,"endTime":885.8,"body":"was interesting to me because"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":885.83,"endTime":890.45,"body":"I've got a friend who would make"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":885.83,"endTime":890.45,"body":"the most amazing clinician in"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":890.45,"endTime":892.55,"body":"her particular field that she's"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":890.45,"endTime":892.55,"body":"applied for. She's actually"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":892.55,"endTime":896.75,"body":"given up a very serious job to"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":892.55,"endTime":896.75,"body":"go into this field that she's"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":896.75,"endTime":900.05,"body":"passionate about, but is"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":896.75,"endTime":900.05,"body":"struggling with young children."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":900.05,"endTime":902.72,"body":"is struggling with that lack of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":900.05,"endTime":902.72,"body":"flexibility. And sometimes that"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":902.72,"endTime":906.41,"body":"can even be that you've prepared"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":902.72,"endTime":906.41,"body":"to do one thing and you've got"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":906.41,"endTime":909.11,"body":"everything lined up in your"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":906.41,"endTime":909.11,"body":"personal life. And then"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":909.11,"endTime":912.14,"body":"something arbitrarily changes,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":909.11,"endTime":912.14,"body":"and perhaps for other students"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":912.14,"endTime":914.75,"body":"without responsibilities that"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":912.14,"endTime":914.75,"body":"might just be annoying, or"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":914.87,"endTime":917.36,"body":"doesn't matter. But for other"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":914.87,"endTime":917.36,"body":"people, it could be a"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":917.36,"endTime":920.99,"body":"showstopper. So I love the way"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":917.36,"endTime":920.99,"body":"that you're recognising all"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":920.99,"endTime":924.17,"body":"those different factors. And I"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":920.99,"endTime":924.17,"body":"think I can see why Katie says"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":924.17,"endTime":926.09,"body":"you're very forward thinking."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":924.17,"endTime":926.09,"body":"That's nice."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":926.33,"endTime":928.58,"body":"Thanks very much. I"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":926.33,"endTime":928.58,"body":"think there's a there's a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":928.58,"endTime":934.16,"body":"principle here that education"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":928.58,"endTime":934.16,"body":"isn't really done by teachers to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":934.16,"endTime":938.72,"body":"students, it's a collaborative"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":934.16,"endTime":938.72,"body":"kind of collective enterprise."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":939.23,"endTime":944.81,"body":"And so if a student has some"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":939.23,"endTime":944.81,"body":"sort of issue, then we need to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":944.81,"endTime":949.1,"body":"look beyond just that student,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":944.81,"endTime":949.1,"body":"you know, what is it that makes"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":949.13,"endTime":953.96,"body":"someone not able to get work in"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":949.13,"endTime":953.96,"body":"on time? Or what is it that"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":953.96,"endTime":957.23,"body":"makes them behave in a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":953.96,"endTime":957.23,"body":"particular way? Does it really"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":957.23,"endTime":960.44,"body":"just reflect the student? Or"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":957.23,"endTime":960.44,"body":"does it sometimes also reflect"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":960.44,"endTime":963.65,"body":"the context that this is all"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":960.44,"endTime":963.65,"body":"happening in, maybe they did"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":963.65,"endTime":967.25,"body":"need some more flexibility"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":963.65,"endTime":967.25,"body":"because they have children or"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":967.58,"endTime":971.09,"body":"they have caring"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":967.58,"endTime":971.09,"body":"responsibilities. And often I"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":971.09,"endTime":975.59,"body":"think, we don't try to find that"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":971.09,"endTime":975.59,"body":"out, we just say, \"Well, this is"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":975.59,"endTime":978.47,"body":"the rule. And they knew that"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":975.59,"endTime":978.47,"body":"when they signed up for it\" so"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":978.47,"endTime":982.25,"body":"one of the things we try never"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":978.47,"endTime":982.25,"body":"to do is to say they knew what"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":982.25,"endTime":985.1,"body":"they were getting into when they"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":982.25,"endTime":985.1,"body":"signed up for this programme."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":985.1,"endTime":988.04,"body":"And hopefully, the pandemic has"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":985.1,"endTime":988.04,"body":"highlighted why that's"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":988.04,"endTime":992.81,"body":"problematic. Nobody can predict"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":988.04,"endTime":992.81,"body":"the future to the extent that"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":992.81,"endTime":996.35,"body":"they always know what they"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":992.81,"endTime":996.35,"body":"signed up for, or how it's going"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":996.35,"endTime":998.63,"body":"to play out or what support"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":996.35,"endTime":998.63,"body":"they're going to need, or what"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":998.63,"endTime":1002.59,"body":"circumstances will change during"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":998.63,"endTime":1002.59,"body":"the course of their study that"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1002.59,"endTime":1005.83,"body":"they then need to be able to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1002.59,"endTime":1005.83,"body":"deal with. And it's really the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1005.83,"endTime":1008.86,"body":"teachers and the students and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1005.83,"endTime":1008.86,"body":"the administrators and the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1009.19,"endTime":1012.85,"body":"institution and the wider"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1009.19,"endTime":1012.85,"body":"context and culture that are"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1013.33,"endTime":1017.74,"body":"contributing to this educational"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1013.33,"endTime":1017.74,"body":"activity that's happening. And"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1017.74,"endTime":1020.98,"body":"sometimes you need to address"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1017.74,"endTime":1020.98,"body":"more than just one of those"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1020.98,"endTime":1024.46,"body":"things, in order to create a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1020.98,"endTime":1024.46,"body":"better future."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1025.65,"endTime":1027.96,"body":"I think one of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1025.65,"endTime":1027.96,"body":"the lemon lightbulbs that's kind"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1027.96,"endTime":1030.96,"body":"of emerging for the series, even"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1027.96,"endTime":1030.96,"body":"though it's in such an early"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1030.96,"endTime":1035.94,"body":"stage is 'be curious'. And I"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1030.96,"endTime":1035.94,"body":"think that idea of understanding"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1035.94,"endTime":1038.88,"body":"and being interested and curious"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1035.94,"endTime":1038.88,"body":"about the context and actually"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1038.88,"endTime":1044.16,"body":"listening. And another one"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1038.88,"endTime":1044.16,"body":"that's just sparked in my mind"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1044.16,"endTime":1046.98,"body":"really was the work we've done"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1044.16,"endTime":1046.98,"body":"with Whose Shoes around admin,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1047.52,"endTime":1052.47,"body":"as an admin in hospitals. And"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1047.52,"endTime":1052.47,"body":"it's fascinating, and sometimes"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1052.47,"endTime":1056.34,"body":"the administrator, you can have"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1052.47,"endTime":1056.34,"body":"a fantastic person or perhaps a"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1056.34,"endTime":1060.75,"body":"receptionist, and people are"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1056.34,"endTime":1060.75,"body":"coming to them asking questions,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1061.02,"endTime":1063.48,"body":"and they're being set up to"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1061.02,"endTime":1063.48,"body":"fail, because they don't know"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1063.48,"endTime":1066.15,"body":"the answers to those questions."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1063.48,"endTime":1066.15,"body":"But they're expected to know the"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1066.15,"endTime":1069.27,"body":"answers. And if you kind of dig"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1066.15,"endTime":1069.27,"body":"behind it a bit, and find out"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1069.27,"endTime":1071.82,"body":"what's going on in the wider"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1069.27,"endTime":1071.82,"body":"system, and perhaps how things"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1071.82,"endTime":1075.75,"body":"could be improved by ... It's"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1071.82,"endTime":1075.75,"body":"working together, isn't it, all"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1075.75,"endTime":1079.86,"body":"of this? So rather than having"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1075.75,"endTime":1079.86,"body":"the 'us and thems' with admin,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1079.86,"endTime":1084.21,"body":"and lecturers and students, and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1079.86,"endTime":1084.21,"body":"never the twain, three of them"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1084.21,"endTime":1084.66,"body":"should meet?"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1085.02,"endTime":1088.83,"body":"Absolutely, I think"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1085.02,"endTime":1088.83,"body":"that's absolutely crucial. You"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1088.83,"endTime":1093.72,"body":"want to break down all these"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1088.83,"endTime":1093.72,"body":"partitions and silos. And we are"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1093.72,"endTime":1096.75,"body":"very fortunate to have the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1093.72,"endTime":1096.75,"body":"greatest administrator in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1096.75,"endTime":1099.33,"body":"world, Debbie Spence on our"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1096.75,"endTime":1099.33,"body":"programme. She'll be very"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1099.33,"endTime":1100.65,"body":"embarrassed if she ever hears"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1099.33,"endTime":1100.65,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1101.76,"endTime":1103.11,"body":"She won't see me"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1101.76,"endTime":1103.11,"body":"clapping."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1105.73,"endTime":1109.48,"body":"And she is an"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1105.73,"endTime":1109.48,"body":"exemplar of the sorts of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1109.99,"endTime":1113.38,"body":"contribution that people with"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1109.99,"endTime":1113.38,"body":"good administrative knowledge"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1113.83,"endTime":1118.15,"body":"can make, and of the way that"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1113.83,"endTime":1118.15,"body":"academics and administrators can"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1118.15,"endTime":1121.39,"body":"work closely together. Or let's"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1118.15,"endTime":1121.39,"body":"say clinicians and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1121.39,"endTime":1124.87,"body":"administrators can work really"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1121.39,"endTime":1124.87,"body":"closely together to produce"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1125.08,"endTime":1128.74,"body":"things that work well for"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1125.08,"endTime":1128.74,"body":"everyone. So I've said before"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1128.74,"endTime":1132.19,"body":"that our programme is really"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1128.74,"endTime":1132.19,"body":"focused on this community, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1132.19,"endTime":1136.09,"body":"the relationship building. And"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1132.19,"endTime":1136.09,"body":"what we do is as soon as"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1136.09,"endTime":1140.26,"body":"somebody indicates that they"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1136.09,"endTime":1140.26,"body":"might be interested in applying"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1140.26,"endTime":1144.13,"body":"for our programme, so this is as"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1140.26,"endTime":1144.13,"body":"early as possible, Debbie will"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1144.13,"endTime":1147.04,"body":"be in touch with them. And she"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1144.13,"endTime":1147.04,"body":"will start building a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1147.04,"endTime":1150.73,"body":"relationship with that person"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1147.04,"endTime":1150.73,"body":"just by being herself and being"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1150.76,"endTime":1155.5,"body":"very helpful and informative."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1150.76,"endTime":1155.5,"body":"And she will then if they apply,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1155.5,"endTime":1157.96,"body":"she will help them through the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1155.5,"endTime":1157.96,"body":"application process. Not"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1157.96,"endTime":1160.63,"body":"everybody does this, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1157.96,"endTime":1160.63,"body":"most people I think are left to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1160.63,"endTime":1164.86,"body":"themselves to fight through the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1160.63,"endTime":1164.86,"body":"system. And then they already"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1164.86,"endTime":1168.61,"body":"have this relationship with"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1164.86,"endTime":1168.61,"body":"Debbie before they start. And"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1168.61,"endTime":1171.4,"body":"then she's part of the induction"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1168.61,"endTime":1171.4,"body":"that happens and then the rest"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1171.4,"endTime":1174.58,"body":"of the programme team come in to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1171.4,"endTime":1174.58,"body":"the induction and get to know"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1174.58,"endTime":1177.1,"body":"these students, but they already"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1174.58,"endTime":1177.1,"body":"know Debbie, so we've got this"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1177.1,"endTime":1181.33,"body":"kind of running start, if you"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1177.1,"endTime":1181.33,"body":"like on the community aspect"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1181.33,"endTime":1184.63,"body":"that's done through Debbie just"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1181.33,"endTime":1184.63,"body":"being brilliant at"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1184.63,"endTime":1188.8,"body":"administration, but the the sort"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1184.63,"endTime":1188.8,"body":"of human side of administration"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1188.83,"endTime":1193.63,"body":"where actually helping people"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1188.83,"endTime":1193.63,"body":"navigate systems is important."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1194.71,"endTime":1199.18,"body":"It isn't just a chore and it"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1194.71,"endTime":1199.18,"body":"makes a significant difference"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1199.18,"endTime":1203.59,"body":"if you can smooth things out for"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1199.18,"endTime":1203.59,"body":"people. But she's such a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1203.62,"endTime":1206.95,"body":"integrated part of the team that"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1203.62,"endTime":1206.95,"body":"it makes it easier for her to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1206.95,"endTime":1210.22,"body":"help people. Because she knows"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1206.95,"endTime":1210.22,"body":"all about the programme. And she"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1210.22,"endTime":1215.02,"body":"knows what we do and how we"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1210.22,"endTime":1215.02,"body":"think about things. So she"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1215.02,"endTime":1218.77,"body":"contributes to our governance"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1215.02,"endTime":1218.77,"body":"and our leadership and our"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1218.77,"endTime":1222.46,"body":"decision making. And we all sort"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1218.77,"endTime":1222.46,"body":"of work together. So it's,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1222.49,"endTime":1224.98,"body":"again, it's this kind of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1222.49,"endTime":1224.98,"body":"everyone working on this"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1225.04,"endTime":1226.51,"body":"educational project together."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1227.65,"endTime":1229.75,"body":"So I think for"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1227.65,"endTime":1229.75,"body":"me, that's another lemon"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1229.75,"endTime":1233.32,"body":"lightbulb in terms of ... your"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1229.75,"endTime":1233.32,"body":"special people are gold, it"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1233.32,"endTime":1235.9,"body":"isn't about the position that"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1233.32,"endTime":1235.9,"body":"you're in, it's about who you"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1235.9,"endTime":1239.11,"body":"are, and building those"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1235.9,"endTime":1239.11,"body":"relationships. And I think one"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1239.11,"endTime":1243.34,"body":"of the concepts we've got is"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1239.11,"endTime":1243.34,"body":"nobody is 'just' a, whoever it"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1243.34,"endTime":1247.42,"body":"might be. So, trying to strip"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1243.34,"endTime":1247.42,"body":"away this hierarchy, the work we"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1247.42,"endTime":1251.47,"body":"do around maternity care, nobody"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1247.42,"endTime":1251.47,"body":"is 'just a mum', or 'just a"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1251.47,"endTime":1254.17,"body":"parent', or 'just a"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1251.47,"endTime":1254.17,"body":"receptionist' or 'just a"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1254.17,"endTime":1258.13,"body":"cleaner'. We find that everybody"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1254.17,"endTime":1258.13,"body":"has got their wisdom to offer."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1258.43,"endTime":1261.55,"body":"And sometimes ... we've got a"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1258.43,"endTime":1261.55,"body":"poem actually around a hospital"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1261.55,"endTime":1265.36,"body":"porter. And basically, he can"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1261.55,"endTime":1265.36,"body":"see what's going wrong, but"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1265.36,"endTime":1268.33,"body":"nobody thinks to ask him,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1265.36,"endTime":1268.33,"body":"because he's having those"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1268.33,"endTime":1271.57,"body":"conversations with people and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1268.33,"endTime":1271.57,"body":"building those relationships in"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1271.57,"endTime":1275.77,"body":"everything that he does. Or she"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1271.57,"endTime":1275.77,"body":"does, you know. So, I mean, it"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1275.77,"endTime":1280.3,"body":"applies across the board doesn't"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1275.77,"endTime":1280.3,"body":"it that to value people and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1280.3,"endTime":1284.26,"body":"build team working, and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1280.3,"endTime":1284.26,"body":"everybody's an equal member of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1284.26,"endTime":1287.02,"body":"that team. And within that team,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1284.26,"endTime":1287.02,"body":"you're going to get some people"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1287.02,"endTime":1291.04,"body":"who, they're going above and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1287.02,"endTime":1291.04,"body":"beyond, aren't they? And that's"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1291.1,"endTime":1294.34,"body":"adding so much value to your"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1291.1,"endTime":1294.34,"body":"course, that people have got"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1294.34,"endTime":1297.34,"body":"that relationship. Another thing"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1294.34,"endTime":1297.34,"body":"that sort of comes to mind is,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1297.37,"endTime":1299.95,"body":"in maternity, they talk a lot,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1297.37,"endTime":1299.95,"body":"there's a big national programme"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1299.95,"endTime":1303.34,"body":"around continuity of carer, but"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1299.95,"endTime":1303.34,"body":"it's continuity of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1303.34,"endTime":1306.4,"body":"relationships, really. And"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1303.34,"endTime":1306.4,"body":"Debbie is your 'continuity of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1306.4,"endTime":1327.07,"body":"carer' in a way for your"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1306.4,"endTime":1327.07,"body":"students."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1309.5,"endTime":1313.1,"body":"eah, she is and the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1309.5,"endTime":1313.1,"body":"nalogies to clinical practice"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1313.1,"endTime":1316.73,"body":"hat you've made, they're really"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1313.1,"endTime":1316.73,"body":"ood ones, I think. It is that,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1316.82,"endTime":1321.23,"body":"ou can find real value"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1316.82,"endTime":1321.23,"body":"verywhere you look if you've"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1321.23,"endTime":1324.41,"body":"ot the right people doing ... k"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1321.23,"endTime":1324.41,"body":"owing how to do their jobs, a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1324.62,"endTime":1329.72,"body":"d especially if they're allowed"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1324.62,"endTime":1329.72,"body":"to do what they know, what th"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1329.99,"endTime":1330.92,"body":"y value."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1332.55,"endTime":1335.25,"body":"And again, that's"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1332.55,"endTime":1335.25,"body":"such an important thing in terms"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1335.25,"endTime":1339.18,"body":"of the team you work in, whether"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1335.25,"endTime":1339.18,"body":"you're allowed to bring your"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1339.18,"endTime":1343.35,"body":"whole self to work. And that"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1339.18,"endTime":1343.35,"body":"could include your personal"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1343.35,"endTime":1347.88,"body":"interests or anything really,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1343.35,"endTime":1347.88,"body":"and some organisations seem to"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1348.78,"endTime":1353.13,"body":"take that very, very naturally"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1348.78,"endTime":1353.13,"body":"and build it. My son's a teacher"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1353.28,"endTime":1356.97,"body":"... he's a math teacher, but"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1353.28,"endTime":1356.97,"body":"also a sportsman. And to"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1356.97,"endTime":1361.32,"body":"actually have a job that blends"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1356.97,"endTime":1361.32,"body":"both of those, and brings out"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1361.32,"endTime":1364.32,"body":"the most for the children is"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1361.32,"endTime":1364.32,"body":"much better than just being"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1364.74,"endTime":1367.14,"body":"categorised as one or the other."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1368.14,"endTime":1371.47,"body":"Definitely. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1368.14,"endTime":1371.47,"body":"there's interesting stuff about"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1371.47,"endTime":1374.86,"body":"identity here, isn't there? And"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1371.47,"endTime":1374.86,"body":"how do you see yourself? And how"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1374.86,"endTime":1378.88,"body":"fixed are you in, not only your"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1374.86,"endTime":1378.88,"body":"own identity, but how you think"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1378.88,"endTime":1382.39,"body":"that particular type of role"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1378.88,"endTime":1382.39,"body":"should work? And there's a real"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1382.39,"endTime":1386.71,"body":"tension in education, I'm sure"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1382.39,"endTime":1386.71,"body":"in clinical practice between"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1386.71,"endTime":1391.9,"body":"standardisation and local"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1386.71,"endTime":1391.9,"body":"discretion if you like, and, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1391.9,"endTime":1395.29,"body":"how much can you improvise? And"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1391.9,"endTime":1395.29,"body":"how much do you have to conform"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1395.29,"endTime":1398.95,"body":"to the system because the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1395.29,"endTime":1398.95,"body":"systems ... there needs to be a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1398.95,"endTime":1403.51,"body":"balance, or there needs to be a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1398.95,"endTime":1403.51,"body":"sort of combination of both. You"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1403.54,"endTime":1408.85,"body":"do need some standardisation."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1403.54,"endTime":1408.85,"body":"And you need some consistency"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1408.85,"endTime":1413.23,"body":"and people understanding how the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1408.85,"endTime":1413.23,"body":"wider thing works. But if you"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1413.23,"endTime":1415.78,"body":"lock everything down too"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1413.23,"endTime":1415.78,"body":"tightly, then people can't"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1415.78,"endTime":1418.42,"body":"operate according to the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1415.78,"endTime":1418.42,"body":"expertise that they've developed"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1418.42,"endTime":1421.78,"body":"or the values that they've"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1418.42,"endTime":1421.78,"body":"developed. And so there's"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1421.84,"endTime":1426.79,"body":"constant negotiation of the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1421.84,"endTime":1426.79,"body":"balance of structure and agency,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1426.79,"endTime":1430.27,"body":"if you like or standardisation"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1426.79,"endTime":1430.27,"body":"and discretion."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1431.35,"endTime":1433.57,"body":"I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1431.35,"endTime":1433.57,"body":"really good way of explaining"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1433.57,"endTime":1436.54,"body":"it. And I know I've been"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1433.57,"endTime":1436.54,"body":"fascinated ... I don't know if"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1436.54,"endTime":1439.48,"body":"you follow Rob Webster on"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1436.54,"endTime":1439.48,"body":"Twitter. And I think he probably"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1439.48,"endTime":1442.0,"body":"was quite instrumental in me"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1439.48,"endTime":1442.0,"body":"becoming a Wild Card. I don't"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1442.0,"endTime":1445.36,"body":"know. He's fantastic Chief"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1442.0,"endTime":1445.36,"body":"Executive of an integrated care"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1445.36,"endTime":1449.98,"body":"system, big area in South"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1445.36,"endTime":1449.98,"body":"Yorkshire. But Rob was the one"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1449.98,"endTime":1452.5,"body":"that introduced me to the idea"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1449.98,"endTime":1452.5,"body":"of bringing your whole self to"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1452.5,"endTime":1455.32,"body":"work. And it was particularly"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1452.5,"endTime":1455.32,"body":"around mental health. So it's"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1455.32,"endTime":1458.11,"body":"breaking taboos as well that, if"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1455.32,"endTime":1458.11,"body":"you're working in a mental"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1458.11,"endTime":1462.4,"body":"health trust, do the staff have"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1458.11,"endTime":1462.4,"body":"permission to show vulnerability"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1462.4,"endTime":1465.34,"body":"and bring their own issues? You"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1462.4,"endTime":1465.34,"body":"know, it's that whole thing"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1465.34,"endTime":1469.81,"body":"about clinicians and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1465.34,"endTime":1469.81,"body":"professionalism, and boundaries"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1469.81,"endTime":1473.35,"body":"... and so that's the sort of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1469.81,"endTime":1473.35,"body":"thing I find really fascinating."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1473.35,"endTime":1475.84,"body":"And I don't know the answers,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1473.35,"endTime":1475.84,"body":"but I love it when people are"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1475.84,"endTime":1478.57,"body":"pushing the boundariesand being"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1475.84,"endTime":1478.57,"body":"a bit more forward thinking."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1478.84,"endTime":1481.57,"body":"Well, that leads me"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1478.84,"endTime":1481.57,"body":"on really nicely to a point that"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1481.57,"endTime":1484.84,"body":"I wanted to make, which is"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1481.57,"endTime":1484.84,"body":"around perfection and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1484.84,"endTime":1492.13,"body":"imperfection and mess. I've been"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1484.84,"endTime":1492.13,"body":"working recently on this idea of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1492.46,"endTime":1497.53,"body":"imperfection. So to me,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1492.46,"endTime":1497.53,"body":"education is always imperfect,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1497.71,"endTime":1502.18,"body":"although sometimes we try to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1497.71,"endTime":1502.18,"body":"pretend that it is perfect and,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1502.75,"endTime":1506.02,"body":"and all streamlined, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1502.75,"endTime":1506.02,"body":"you take, for example, a novice"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1506.02,"endTime":1510.37,"body":"and you build this nice clear"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1506.02,"endTime":1510.37,"body":"path from there to the outcomes"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1510.37,"endTime":1514.27,"body":"that you want. So of novice to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1510.37,"endTime":1514.27,"body":"expert or beginner to master or,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1514.9,"endTime":1519.7,"body":"you know, from not knowing to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1514.9,"endTime":1519.7,"body":"knowing. But in reality, things"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1519.7,"endTime":1522.91,"body":"don't work out the way that we"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1519.7,"endTime":1522.91,"body":"plan. So our designs are never"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1522.91,"endTime":1527.44,"body":"perfect, actually. But also,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1522.91,"endTime":1527.44,"body":"they're always reinterpreted by"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1527.44,"endTime":1531.04,"body":"the learners, they always are"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1527.44,"endTime":1531.04,"body":"kind of modified by the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1531.04,"endTime":1534.16,"body":"conditions that they happen in,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1531.04,"endTime":1534.16,"body":"there's always some kind of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1534.16,"endTime":1538.9,"body":"subversion going on as well. You"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1534.16,"endTime":1538.9,"body":"can't predict to the level of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1539.56,"endTime":1543.04,"body":"precision that you would need to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1539.56,"endTime":1543.04,"body":"perfectly design a learning"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1543.04,"endTime":1547.03,"body":"experience, you can only really"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1543.04,"endTime":1547.03,"body":"design tasks and configure"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1547.03,"endTime":1550.54,"body":"conditions, and then it sort of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1547.03,"endTime":1550.54,"body":"plays out in this messy reality"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1550.54,"endTime":1554.5,"body":"a little bit differently from"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1550.54,"endTime":1554.5,"body":"how you'd intended. And the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1554.5,"endTime":1559.66,"body":"pandemic, again, has really"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1554.5,"endTime":1559.66,"body":"shown that. So, what I think we"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1559.66,"endTime":1562.18,"body":"need is, rather than pretending"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1559.66,"endTime":1562.18,"body":"that it was all fine, we"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1562.18,"endTime":1565.27,"body":"achieved all the learning"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1562.18,"endTime":1565.27,"body":"outcomes that we said we were"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1565.27,"endTime":1570.58,"body":"going to, and now we can move"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1565.27,"endTime":1570.58,"body":"on. We want honesty and openness"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1570.67,"endTime":1575.08,"body":"about what were the limitations"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1570.67,"endTime":1575.08,"body":"of this educational experience,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1575.92,"endTime":1579.34,"body":"such that the learners have a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1575.92,"endTime":1579.34,"body":"good understanding of what they"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1579.34,"endTime":1583.69,"body":"still need to go on and learn"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1579.34,"endTime":1583.69,"body":"after the course. And then they"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1583.69,"endTime":1586.33,"body":"can have a discussion about how"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1583.69,"endTime":1586.33,"body":"they might go and learn that."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1587.14,"endTime":1591.16,"body":"And I know in medicine in"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1587.14,"endTime":1591.16,"body":"particular, sometimes it's"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1591.16,"endTime":1594.58,"body":"difficult to admit, when you"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1591.16,"endTime":1594.58,"body":"don't know something due to kind"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1594.58,"endTime":1598.69,"body":"of the cultural history of the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1594.58,"endTime":1598.69,"body":"profession. And that can filter"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1598.69,"endTime":1602.77,"body":"into teaching where teachers"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1598.69,"endTime":1602.77,"body":"feel like they need to present"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1602.77,"endTime":1606.76,"body":"themselves as confident and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1602.77,"endTime":1606.76,"body":"knowing a lot of stuff. But"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1606.76,"endTime":1610.6,"body":"actually, my preference would be"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1606.76,"endTime":1610.6,"body":"that teachers were really open"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1610.6,"endTime":1613.24,"body":"and honest about their own"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1610.6,"endTime":1613.24,"body":"limitations, not pretending to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1613.24,"endTime":1616.6,"body":"know more than they did and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1613.24,"endTime":1616.6,"body":"working with the students there"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1616.6,"endTime":1620.53,"body":"and saying, how could we find"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1616.6,"endTime":1620.53,"body":"out, how can we learn more? What"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1620.53,"endTime":1624.07,"body":"is it that we would still need"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1620.53,"endTime":1624.07,"body":"to do after this point in order"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1624.07,"endTime":1628.87,"body":"to to get to where everyone"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1624.07,"endTime":1628.87,"body":"needs to be to do their future"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1628.87,"endTime":1631.63,"body":"practice and developing"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1628.87,"endTime":1631.63,"body":"principles for ongoing learning"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1631.66,"endTime":1633.22,"body":"after the end of the course?"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1634.7,"endTime":1637.58,"body":"So there's a lot"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1634.7,"endTime":1637.58,"body":"to take in there, Tim, - that"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1637.58,"endTime":1643.34,"body":"whole idea about honesty and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1637.58,"endTime":1643.34,"body":"openness and vulnerability and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1643.37,"endTime":1647.27,"body":"working together to get the best"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1643.37,"endTime":1647.27,"body":"for everybody is one of the key"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1647.27,"endTime":1650.24,"body":"things that come out through"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1647.27,"endTime":1650.24,"body":"this session. So thank you so"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1650.24,"endTime":1653.51,"body":"much for that. And I wanted to"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1650.24,"endTime":1653.51,"body":"...so you picked up on the point"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1653.51,"endTime":1656.33,"body":"that you wanted to make and it"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1653.51,"endTime":1656.33,"body":"kind of builds into it really. I"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1656.33,"endTime":1659.48,"body":"did a bit of crowdsourcing to"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1656.33,"endTime":1659.48,"body":"say, you know, what questions"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1659.48,"endTime":1663.65,"body":"should I ask Tim on our podcast"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1659.48,"endTime":1663.65,"body":"today? And one of my Darzi"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1663.65,"endTime":1666.8,"body":"friends, a wonderful"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1663.65,"endTime":1666.8,"body":"paediatrician, who's now"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1666.8,"endTime":1670.34,"body":"Associate Professor at the"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1666.8,"endTime":1670.34,"body":"Health Systems Innovation Lab at"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1670.34,"endTime":1674.42,"body":"London, South Bank University"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1670.34,"endTime":1674.42,"body":"Dr. Tom Holliday would like to"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1674.42,"endTime":1675.95,"body":"ask you a question. Is that"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1674.42,"endTime":1675.95,"body":"OK?"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1676.35,"endTime":1677.1,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1677.85,"endTime":1680.82,"body":"So do you think"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1677.85,"endTime":1680.82,"body":"the current system adequately"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1680.82,"endTime":1684.27,"body":"prepares trainees for the"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1680.82,"endTime":1684.27,"body":"complex reality that they will"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1684.27,"endTime":1688.59,"body":"be faced with when they qualify?"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1684.27,"endTime":1688.59,"body":"And if not, where do you think"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1688.59,"endTime":1691.23,"body":"the gaps are? And how could they"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1688.59,"endTime":1691.23,"body":"be addressed?"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1691.99,"endTime":1694.78,"body":"Thanks, Tom. There's"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1691.99,"endTime":1694.78,"body":"a big question. And we're"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1695.41,"endTime":1700.21,"body":"getting close to the end of the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1695.41,"endTime":1700.21,"body":"session. But there are I think,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1700.39,"endTime":1704.2,"body":"it doesn't adequately prepare"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1700.39,"endTime":1704.2,"body":"people, but then I'm not sure"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1704.2,"endTime":1708.49,"body":"that it ever could. So I think"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1704.2,"endTime":1708.49,"body":"that we need to think of it not"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1708.49,"endTime":1712.18,"body":"so much as you know, graduates"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1708.49,"endTime":1712.18,"body":"are ready. But really, the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1712.18,"endTime":1717.97,"body":"undergraduate is just a step in"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1712.18,"endTime":1717.97,"body":"the bigger process of becoming a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1717.97,"endTime":1722.8,"body":"clinician who really knows what"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1717.97,"endTime":1722.8,"body":"they need to know or is ready."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1722.83,"endTime":1726.64,"body":"And you could even argue, are we"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1722.83,"endTime":1726.64,"body":"ever really ready, given the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1726.64,"endTime":1730.93,"body":"uncertainty that we will be"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1726.64,"endTime":1730.93,"body":"practising? So if you think of"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1730.93,"endTime":1735.1,"body":"undergraduate as just one step,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1730.93,"endTime":1735.1,"body":"and the postgraduate is another"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1735.1,"endTime":1739.12,"body":"step and And beyond that, as"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1735.1,"endTime":1739.12,"body":"another step, we need to just"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1739.12,"endTime":1745.24,"body":"keep going forward. But I think"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1739.12,"endTime":1745.24,"body":"that there's an issue in terms"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1745.24,"endTime":1750.19,"body":"of dealing with uncertainty and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1745.24,"endTime":1750.19,"body":"complexity, that we could do"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1750.19,"endTime":1754.81,"body":"better. And then again, this"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1750.19,"endTime":1754.81,"body":"issue that I brought up about"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1754.84,"endTime":1757.6,"body":"imperfection and honesty, I"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1754.84,"endTime":1757.6,"body":"think is really crucial here"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1757.6,"endTime":1762.37,"body":"that we shouldn't pretend for"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1757.6,"endTime":1762.37,"body":"one thing that when someone has"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1762.37,"endTime":1765.73,"body":"done their undergraduate"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1762.37,"endTime":1765.73,"body":"training, they are fully"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1765.73,"endTime":1769.96,"body":"fledged, because we know really,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1765.73,"endTime":1769.96,"body":"that that's not the case. And"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1769.96,"endTime":1772.39,"body":"it's not the fault of the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1769.96,"endTime":1772.39,"body":"graduates. And it's not really"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1772.39,"endTime":1775.63,"body":"the fault of the teachers. It's"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1772.39,"endTime":1775.63,"body":"just that it isn't really"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1775.63,"endTime":1780.22,"body":"possible in that structure, in"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1775.63,"endTime":1780.22,"body":"that space of time to get people"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1780.22,"endTime":1784.6,"body":"... most professions, anybody"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1780.22,"endTime":1784.6,"body":"that I am aware of, as far as"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1784.6,"endTime":1787.87,"body":"they need to be, especially if"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1784.6,"endTime":1787.87,"body":"they're not really embedded in"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1787.87,"endTime":1791.86,"body":"practice in a way that they're"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1787.87,"endTime":1791.86,"body":"actively participating. So I"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1791.86,"endTime":1796.75,"body":"think there is always more to be"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1791.86,"endTime":1796.75,"body":"done in allowing students to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1796.99,"endTime":1802.51,"body":"participate actively in practice"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1796.99,"endTime":1802.51,"body":"settings as part of teams. And"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1802.51,"endTime":1805.06,"body":"again, I would bring that"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1802.51,"endTime":1805.06,"body":"relationship building and trust"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1805.06,"endTime":1809.08,"body":"and things in there. We need"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1805.06,"endTime":1809.08,"body":"somehow to be able to trust"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1809.08,"endTime":1814.6,"body":"students to participate at a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1809.08,"endTime":1814.6,"body":"safe level, in practice, and in"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1814.6,"endTime":1817.12,"body":"a way where they are part, they"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1814.6,"endTime":1817.12,"body":"feel like part of the team and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1817.12,"endTime":1820.57,"body":"everybody knows who they are."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1817.12,"endTime":1820.57,"body":"And you actually have these"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1820.57,"endTime":1823.42,"body":"personal connections between"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1820.57,"endTime":1823.42,"body":"more senior members of the team"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1823.42,"endTime":1827.11,"body":"and more junior members of the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1823.42,"endTime":1827.11,"body":"team. And in order to do that,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1827.17,"endTime":1830.2,"body":"we probably need to think a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1827.17,"endTime":1830.2,"body":"little bit differently about the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1830.2,"endTime":1834.34,"body":"relationship between patient"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1830.2,"endTime":1834.34,"body":"care and education, which we"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1834.34,"endTime":1837.01,"body":"tend to separate. And you'll"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1834.34,"endTime":1837.01,"body":"have noticed a theme of mine is"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1837.01,"endTime":1840.31,"body":"like, worrying about these"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1837.01,"endTime":1840.31,"body":"separations and trying to break"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1840.31,"endTime":1845.38,"body":"them down. Does education have"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1840.31,"endTime":1845.38,"body":"to be separated from patient"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1845.38,"endTime":1847.84,"body":"care, because if it is"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1845.38,"endTime":1847.84,"body":"separated, then it will always"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1847.84,"endTime":1852.43,"body":"be marginalised, it will never"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1847.84,"endTime":1852.43,"body":"have priority over patient care."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1852.43,"endTime":1855.94,"body":"But if we can think of them as"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1852.43,"endTime":1855.94,"body":"stuff that happened together,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1856.42,"endTime":1862.57,"body":"education as part of the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1856.42,"endTime":1862.57,"body":"practice of healthcare, then I"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1862.57,"endTime":1867.73,"body":"think we have more scope for"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1862.57,"endTime":1867.73,"body":"building it into practice. But"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1867.73,"endTime":1871.27,"body":"there's a real cultural change"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1867.73,"endTime":1871.27,"body":"that would need to happen,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1871.3,"endTime":1874.39,"body":"cultural perspective. And I"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1871.3,"endTime":1874.39,"body":"don't know if we have space to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1874.39,"endTime":1878.8,"body":"discuss all of that right now."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1874.39,"endTime":1878.8,"body":"But it comes down for me to"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1878.8,"endTime":1885.7,"body":"trust and relationship building,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1878.8,"endTime":1885.7,"body":"openness, vulnerability, and a"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1885.7,"endTime":1891.04,"body":"valuing of education and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1885.7,"endTime":1891.04,"body":"educational expertise, as part"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1891.04,"endTime":1895.75,"body":"of this negotiation of like,"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1891.04,"endTime":1895.75,"body":"practice and education at the"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1895.75,"endTime":1896.47,"body":"same time."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1897.35,"endTime":1900.71,"body":"Brilliant. So I"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1897.35,"endTime":1900.71,"body":"can just feel an amazing. I"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1900.8,"endTime":1903.86,"body":"don't know if you've picked up"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1900.8,"endTime":1903.86,"body":"on our #IntentionalCoffee that"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1903.86,"endTime":1908.06,"body":"we launched recently at the"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1903.86,"endTime":1908.06,"body":"COLab partnership event, but I"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1908.06,"endTime":1911.27,"body":"can feel, at some point, an"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1908.06,"endTime":1911.27,"body":"'intentional coffee' coming on"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1911.27,"endTime":1914.93,"body":"between you and Tom Holiday."},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1911.27,"endTime":1914.93,"body":"Because Tom is really into"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1914.93,"endTime":1919.67,"body":"wicked problems, and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1914.93,"endTime":1919.67,"body":"uncertainty and complexity. And"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1919.67,"endTime":1921.74,"body":"I just think that will be"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1919.67,"endTime":1921.74,"body":"fascinating. I mean, perhaps we"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1921.74,"endTime":1924.26,"body":"could even host that as another"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1921.74,"endTime":1924.26,"body":"podcast at some time. It's all"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1924.26,"endTime":1929.51,"body":"evolving. I would love. So, OK,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1924.26,"endTime":1929.51,"body":"well, we have come to what we"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1929.51,"endTime":1932.78,"body":"thought would be a good kind of"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1929.51,"endTime":1932.78,"body":"time so that Tom and others can"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1932.78,"endTime":1936.68,"body":"listen on his commute on the"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1932.78,"endTime":1936.68,"body":"train. So thank you so much,"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1936.68,"endTime":1939.62,"body":"Tim, for being an early guest in"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1936.68,"endTime":1939.62,"body":"this podcast series and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1939.62,"endTime":1941.69,"body":"believing in what we're trying"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1939.62,"endTime":1941.69,"body":"to do here. It's been"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1941.69,"endTime":1944.66,"body":"fascinating to talk to you, and"},{"speaker":"Gill Phillips","startTime":1941.69,"endTime":1944.66,"body":"thank you."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1945.29,"endTime":1947.33,"body":"You're welcome."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1945.29,"endTime":1947.33,"body":"Thanks for having me, Gill and"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1947.33,"endTime":1949.7,"body":"all the best with the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1947.33,"endTime":1949.7,"body":"I'm sure it's going to be"},{"speaker":"Tim Fawns","startTime":1949.7,"endTime":1951.77,"body":"absolutely fantastic. Thank you."}]}