4. Leanne Howlett - our first #MatExp, 'lived experience' guest

My first #MatExp guest!

Huge thanks to busy mum (and so much more!) my friend Leanne Howlett for sharing her experience of perinatal mental health and how she is using it to help others.

We are hoping this episode will be influential in raising awareness and spreading some of the, often very simple, ideas that we discuss. Please give us some feedback. We are really hoping to build the conversation.

Lots of lemon lightbulbs! 🍋💡🍋 
See 'chapter headings' for more detail and to pick out your favourite bits,  including:

• The importance of walking in the shoes of parents and finding out what actually matters to them
• Small, often very informal, things matter
• Don’t guess what people want, listen to them. 
• Use genuine coproduction; be brave
• Share examples – e.g. a simple video to help people know what to expect
• Don’t overthink; just be human and the rest will fall into place
• Build trust through relationships rather than tick boxes
• The community are there to support you – use imaginative approaches

Supporting resources

Leanne and clinical psychologist Kirstie read and talk about the wonderful paired ‘I’m fine’ poems they wrote as part of the Whose Shoes #MindNBody resources:

https://twitter.com/howlett_leanne/status/1070068078678024193?s=21
https://twitter.com/howlett_leanne/status/1070322658259156992?s=21

Leanne speaks at our #VirtualWhoseShoes postnatal event in Southampton:
Leanne Howlett - Whose Shoes postnatal workshop, Southampton - June 2021 - YouTube

Leanne‘s blog: https://leannejhowlett.medium.com/why-becoming-a-mum-is-the-hardest-thing-ive-ever-done-233293734cc3

Leanne‘s campaign asking the government to invest in life-saving health visitors: https://twitter.com/nspcc_press/status/1443597957861941248?s=21

Sign Leanne’s open letter and show your support:    https://twitter.com/nspcc_press/status/1443597957861941248?s=21

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I tweet as @WhoseShoes and @WildCardWS and am on Instagram as @WildCardWS.

Please recommend 'Wild Card - Whose Shoes' to others who enjoy hearing passionate people talk about their experiences of improving health care.

Transcript

Gill Phillips: 0:00

So it's so lovely to chat to you, Leanne. I guess you've put the children to bed by now. This is t he reality of MatExp, isn't it?

Leanne Howlett: 0:07

It is yes, just By the skin of my teeth

Gill Phillips: 0:12

I think you're going to give me good pr actice for when perhaps I do podcasts with Australian guests and so on, so we can do this stuff. So I first met you through a Whose Shoes workshop and we've become friends since, so this is really special. And I've followed your journey as a new mum, some of the struggles, some of the triumphs, fantastic leadership and peer support, and now a career change as well. So you've got so many different hats, but I'm delighted to say that you're our first kind of lived experience Wild Card podcast guest, and also our first#MatExp maternity experience contributor. So tell us a bit more about yourself. Leanne. And what's important to you?

Leanne Howlett: 0:54

Thanks Gill. So yeah, so I guess I met Gill at a Whose Shoes conference back in, I can't even think what year it would have been. 2017, would it have been Gill?

Gill Phillips: 1:05

Yeah, it's a while ago, it really is? Yeah, something like that.

Leanne Howlett: 1:08

And I sort of got into maternity, incidentally, at first I suppose, I had quite an awful traumatic birth with my son. And there were lots of things that could have been done differently. And I think for me, it became very important then to make sure I could be a voice for other parents. I think at the time, I was very aware that I didn't speak up enough for us. And after that I had postnatal depression. I think one of the things that stuck with me quite a lot was I was his mum, and why couldn't I fight for him? Like he needed things at the time, and health care professionals weren't giving us what we needed. And I wasn't a good enough mum to fight for him, and what he needed and I should have been his advocate. And I think it was only a year or two later, I thought, actually no, it's not that way at all. Because I equally needed that support. I was a new mum, I didn't know what I was doing. So for me, it became about then actually helping other new moms, and being an advocate for people that don't have a voice for themselves. And as I said, I had postnatal depression myself and felt quite alone with that. So I became involved in a few things, I suppose all at once. I got involved as a service user on a local, what would have been the MSLC then at a local maternity hospital just to input that way and feedback and try and sort of drive change. I'm never really a complaint sort of person. I'm almost like, yes this happened, but what actually can we learn from it? And what can we do rather than just moaning about everything that sort of went wrong. So I became quite passionate about that and became involved with that. And then also sort of wanted to do more to support parents that had, not just postnatal depression, but I suppose any form of perinatal mental illness. Because again, I felt really alone. When I was unwell, I didn't know what it was. I didn't understand it. Everyone else seemed really happy with their babies. And I felt like I was the only person who was really struggling. And I wanted to create a peer support where parents could come along. And I suppose where because it was driven by sort of lived experience that the barriers that I knew or barriers to me weren't there. They were taken down. And we just have all sorts of things. Now, as a group of parents, and I have parents say, I think it's great that you did that. And I think it's because I can be in their mind because I was that person. So quite recently, I suppose, we did a video when we run sort of a weekly stay 'n play, and we did a video for parents of walking into the centre, from the outside, from the street walking in, what do we go through where you go up the corridor and into the room. And it was just something simple it took about two minutes, I literally did it on my phone and it was nothing spectacular. But parents absolutely loved it and said it made a big difference to them. And for me that was born out of the fact that I hate going to groups. I hate going to groups on my own. I always will only go with a friend. I always like to know where I'm going, where I can park, where I need to go when I get there, because I just hate being out of my depth and being unsure or not knowing where I'm going. So I think I just have these ideas of things that sort of affect you as a parent and bother you as a parent and sort of I think knowing what sort of pre empting what sorts of things parents will struggle with just is a really nice fit. So I became really passionate about that and was running that group and then became more involved with my MSLC, or what was an MVP then, so I actually became the founding chair of our Coventry and Warwickshire MVP and chair that now it's been going for just coming up to two years and still run my little group and by my by my little group By Your Side is now about to open four more groups across Coventry and Warwickshire.

Gill Phillips: 4:19

Wow, didn't know that!, Really amazing. Yeah,

Leanne Howlett: 4:22

I've got a meeting tomorrow at a children's Ccntre in Bedworth to talk to them about starting there and then we hopefully should have some starting in Rugby, Coventry and Nuneaton as well which will be really nice.

Gill Phillips: 4:33

I love those stories and I love you just touching upon the things there but the informality of that video, the fact that it took you like two minutes on your phone, but I can feel that making such a difference and it reminds me of, now see what you think of this, there's a fantastic maternity team down in Cornwall, I work quite closely with them. And Sarah-Jane Pedler, their PMA, whatever that stands for I can't remember, Professional Midwifery Advocate is it yeah, these acronyms that we love, made a, she's a really smiley midwife, and she made a little video herself of putting on her PPE to show that it was still the same person underneath, still smiling. But you know, at the sort of hieight of the pandemic?

Leanne Howlett: 5:15

Yeah.

Gill Phillips: 5:16

And don't these things make a difference. A video perhaps walking into the reception area of a maternity hospital? You know, this is what it will feel like?

Leanne Howlett: 5:25

Yeah, I think it's sometimes, it's only the small gestures isn't it doesn't need to be grand gestures, it just needs to be. It's just sort of thinking, I suppose, about what it is that parents want to see, and for me that's sort of the beauty of coproduction, that is where the real value is, in getting into the minds of service users and seeing what it is they want to see. Because sometimes like, what they like, midwives always want to do great change, want to make great change, and they want to do these great things for parents. But sometimes they'll go to sort of really elaborate measures to do this. And actually, parents didn't need that. They didn't need to worry about doing all of that, like what they needed was maybe quite simple. And it's sort of I suppose, is having those minds come together, isn't it which I think that's what's sort of the beauty of it really.

Gill Phillips: 6:03

So something I didn't mention, but which you'll be very familiar of, is through these podcast series, we're hoping to collect kind of lemon light bulb moments or lemon lightbulb ideas. And, you know, we've already got those, like, get in the shoes of the parents and find out what actually matters to them rather than assume, and small things matter. So these are the kind of things that have come through MatExp, and language and so on. I mean, I was thinking how great it is that you're kind of creative, you've got so many different hats, as I say, and I dipped into your blog, and I saw that one thing that really jumped out at me is a quote, an amazing nurse once said to me, that she was holding the hope for me until I was able to hold it for for myself. And that kind of get like goose bump kind of thing in terms of something that somebody has done that's just made such a difference. But it's not something you can write in a manual, is it?

Leanne Howlett: 6:57

No, it's not. And it was funny because I said that to her afterwards. So she sent it to my nurse who looked after me after I had Miley, and she was so lovely. And she said it and I sort of took it in but didn't think much of it. And then when I was at my discharge appointment, I mentioned it to her. And she was really surprised that I'd carried it with me and sort of I remembered it and she said it was a mentor had said it to her, so her mentor had mentioned it to her when she was training as a nurse herself. A nd she took it on and used it sometimes but she sort of hadn't realised I don't think sort of the impact of it and how helpful it was. And I did actually work with her because she's left now which is a real shame. But she was obviously a nurse in our local perinatal team. And so we've just had made by a local artist who was linked to us, has just made some postcards with that on as a phrase and some like, like graphic around it. And the idea is we're going to get those printed and then we're going to hand those out to parents. And I can't remember the exact quote in my head what we've gone with, but it's something like that we're holding the hope for them until they can hold it themselves.

Gill Phillips: 8:00

These are the things, I mean, you know me quite well now but I just want to share so widely because they're so simple, you know, people seem to go, in the NHS, to such trouble to do the perfect video. And I mean, obviously it's different because we can just throw something together. And the quality standard is basically that somebody finds it useful - that's about it really. But yeah, people overthink things sometimes. And I mean, the other thing I heard there in terms of perhaps a lemon lightbulb, and it links in with other areas of my work which have been quite interesting, is either making or taking or whatever it might be the chance to feed back to people and how valuable that is for the healthcare professionals. So for example, I've done some work with London Ambulance, and you can imagine you know, paramedics or emergency care workers and they see a snapshot of something potentially awful that's happened and then they deliver that person and they've perhaps got quite close to them by chatting in the ambulance or to a family member and then more often than not they never hear what happens as result of it and some of these more imaginative schemes that perhaps link people back in and they get the chance to meet the paramedic or it's these sort of human approaches isn't it that are so important to people, I think, and not just the people with lived experience but the the staff as well, the healthcare professionals.

Leanne Howlett: 9:25

Yeah i think it is. I think you're right because I think she's almost said it as like a really offhand comment and then she sort of realised the impact it would have and i don't know i suppose I hope that now wherever she goes on to that actually she sort of takes that with her and remembers how important it was and how much it meant and will it again, sort of knowing the impact it will have.

Gill Phillips: 9:46

I guess the other story that really jumped out for me from your story was when you ended up I don't know about reluctantly, no I think reluctantly is the wrong word, but unexpectedly exceeding your own expectations, writing a fantastic poem. That's been really ... you see, you are so self deprecating ... but it has, it's been really quite influential, I think in maternity and #MindNBody, the project that we've done around perinatal mental health. And just that feeling of being a mum and being able to put into words, you know, some of what you felt.

Leanne Howlett: 10:22

Yeah, I think that always makes me laugh because even I'm quite impressive. poetry. But I do but yeah, I'm quite impressed with that. I don't think I could ever do it again. I don't know where it came from. I feel like that was probably in the moment, like came together by some sort of miracle.

Gill Phillips: 10:42

But it was it was so important. It was called "I'm fine" wasn't it? It explored ... I mean, perhaps we could even include it. I don't know eithere in the notes or in the actual podcast, but it came from that question that we all ask each other all the time. How are you? And it's just part of our culture, isn't it just to say,"How are you?" without necessarily wanting or expecting a full answer. But but then within healthcare services, If that 'how are you?' doesn't feel as if it's really teasing and wanting to listen to you and to find out what's happening ..."I'm fine" - It's just such a, you know, a natural thing to say, but not the real answer.

Leanne Howlett: 11:22

Yeah, it's always to me, it always seems like a brush across the surface sort of answer. And I always say to people, when I give talks, that if someone says 'they're fine', they're probably not. Because it's just not the sort of word you would ever say if you are. Yeah, it's just one of those really awkward ones, isn't it? But yeah, and I think it for me, it sort of encompassed that I suppose. Because it is that almost like putting on a bit of a shield, isn't it and hiding from how you're actually feeling and just just keeping a bit of armour on yourself.

Gill Phillips: 11:53

And I know, we've talked similarly, and I would be really keen ... I think there are some up in, say, children's centres, my 'Perfect Mother' poem. And it's the same kind of thing, the social media, and how people, we put only the good stuff on social media and the photos of the perfect family and the smiling pictures and it makes other people feel, I think, and obviously you'll speak more about this in terms of feeling lonely, or that you're the only one that things aren't perfect for.

Leanne Howlett: 12:23

Yeah, and I think what always resonates with me, and what I always remember is when I was unwell after having my first, I didn't tell anyone that I was struggling because I just didn't really want to, and when I did eventually tell a friend, and it was a friend I've been friends with before we had children, they're literally only three days apart. But we were friends anyway, before we had children just happened to be we had children the same time. And I sort of used to meet her once or twice a week, we'd take the kids out to rhyme time and go for a coffee and do things, so I saw it really regularly. And when I told her, she had absolutely no idea, she was genuinely absolutely gobsmacked that I'd been unwell because she said she would never have guessed in a million years. And she said that when she used to ... she breastfed really successfully her little boy probably until after she went back to work but she said at points when I was sort of there bottle feed I was sort of sat there bottle feed and thinking oh god how awful I can ever breastfeed and then she was sat there thinking I can't believe look at Leanne, she's got it all together like she knows what she's doing and she's you know, she's made a decision she's made a plan to do it and I would sit there she crying to my husband saying 'Leanne's got it all sorted and I can't even do this or that'. And she said I can't believe it, I would never have known, like I just thought you had it all together. And I think it's so strange now to think that actually yeah, like people do give us a craft and it's like we're all in this big conspiracy together to just like make every of them feel rubbish about themselves by pretending that we're okay.

Gill Phillips: 13:50

And there's just so many layers to that in a way, the fact that not just people who've perhaps typically met through an antenatal class or something but existing friends you know, people who know each other and then I'm sure you want to be open with each other but until somehow it gets unlocked and then when it does, the opportunity then to compare how it really is it's ... Why do you think that happens? Just because we're expected to be this perfect mother ...?

Leanne Howlett: 14:19

I think it is that, the shame of it, isn't it, because society expects everything to be okay, less so now I must say I feel like in the last couple of years, there's been a bit more of a change in society around actually being OK to say. "Do you know what? Being a mum is rubbish at times". It's not always nice. It is stressful, it is a pain, there are so many parts of it which aren't nice. And which we really feel we probably didn't sign up for. But then there are so many moments as well which are just completely amazing. And it's this big journey where you are on this roller coaster of balancing them all. I think it's become more acceptable, almost to be like that now. People like the Mumsy Mums and people like Anna Williamson and you know, people that really are quite open about all that side of parenting. But I think even now, to a certain extent, definitely sort of five years ago when I had my eldest, there was none of that there. So I think there is a need to just sort of just say I'm okay. I'm okay. Because it's actually really ... at what point do you turn around ... I always say, people ask you how you're doing or if you're okay, or if you're managing. But when they ask, It's like you were saying earlier, with the underlying question, they don't actually want you to say, No, I'm really struggling and go into some awful thing about how awful it is for you. So almost to make them feel more comfortable. And just because it's easy for you. It's so much easier to say, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, I'm doing all right. Or you just go along with it. And I think there's no real way. I don't know. Like, even now I say, like, people said, when people used to say to me the first time, all right, how are you? And I said, Okay, if I think back now, what would actually have happened if I said, awful, really awful. Like, they'd probably just like, look to me in a stunned silence, like people aren't equipped to deal with, or ways to deal with these things. I think it's a real societal thing, isn't it? And I don't know. And that's why I suppose I've always been braver, since I've become well, I've always been very vocal and very, very open about the fact that I struggled, because I think actually, once you have one or two people doing that, and then three or four people doing that, and then more and more and more, it's a snowball effect. Before you know it, it's actually quite normal to say, "Actually, I really struggled after having my child or my children and it wasn't easy for me, this is what I found really hard". And it's what opens up those conversations and makes it okay, I suppose to struggle.

Gill Phillips: 16:34

And I think you've been really instrumental in that. You and others like you, like you say, the more women who are sort of speaking out and being honest, then the more it is helping others. And I really would like to think that our #MatExp work and the#MindNBody project have helped with this because that's been over the last four or five years. And we found that by putting in scenarios that are real scenarios, it can really unblock things so perhaps for the healthcare professionals too. So they might say well actually, I know there's a problem there but my training just isn't enough that if someone says 'I'm fine' and we can move on with the conversation and perhaps I've got these massive tick boxes of things as a midwife that I've got to ask them about in a short appointment. But if they did say"no", if they opened up and started to say how they really are, you know, I'm worried that I might get myself into saying things that aren't perhaps quite right or unhelpful and then the appointment ends. And I suppose for me now obviously being being older, I'm and I'm a Granny now. It's been fascinating and very important, I think seeing not just perinatal mental health but all sorts of taboo subjects I think sort of coming out of the closet over the last few years because certainly I was brought up "Don't wash your dirty washing in public", you know, you get these phrases that stick with you and, from your parents and so on. So there's a big change, I think in society and I think it's very healthy.

Leanne Howlett: 18:02

Yeah, I do this I was literally doing some training with some health visitors. And I said to them, I was almost talking to them and said, it's not always about ... you don't need to worry about saying the wrong thing or the wrong thing because all parents actually want is to listen to them. As long as you can listen. And you're just a nice human being. You will never say the wrong thing but there is a real fear, you're right. People don't want to say the wrong thing. They don't want to make things worse. And I think yeah, I think it's about us all being aware and be reminded I suppose that if we just listen like it is just human nature it comes to us in that time you don't think it will but it does and it's just about listening especially as sort of your your healthcare professionals like that I think parents are very aware that a lot of health care professionals aren't mental health specialists and for me if I think that now with Miley particularly I suppose, my health visitor was great, because she would call like ... I'd have my perinatal team appointment, and obviously, they were really crucial. But they were more around like fixing things, and they had an agenda and we'd have stuff to do and almost homework to do from it. And it would be part of that. And yet my health visitor was just someone who was checking ... "just checking in, how are you doing?" and we just had a bit of a chat and it was just some a bit of luck in ear to listen to and a shoulder to cry on and someone there. Like I didn't expect her to do ... the perinatal team were doing all that side of things. I didn't want that necessarily. I just wanted somebody to be able to talk to who I knew would listen and not judge, and who I felt safe and comfortable chatting to. But you're right, you hear all the time that people just don't feel comfortable, don't know what to say and get worried about saying the wrong thing. I think it's about sort of educating people that it actually doesn't matter. You don't need to say the right thing. Just be a human being.

Gill Phillips: 19:36

And you don't always need to say anything. Just listen. And you've touched upon ... trust and relationships and continuity. The fact that you knew that person, so when she turned up at your door, you'd start in a certain place, big time really rather than .... someone whose job it is to come and check on you.

Leanne Howlett: 19:55

Yeah, I think it makes a difference. And it does because my health visitor after I had Miley was different to when I had Garrison. So it wasn't even as if people could say, Oh, you had that pre-existing relationship, because I didn't. She was new. But it didn't stop us building up that relationship because of the way she was and the way she came across. And I think that's what matters. But I think, as human beings, like, we want to fix things, massively! Everyone I used to speak to when I was unwell wanted to fix me. And I was thinking, "you can't!". But you don't need that, you don't expect everyone to do that you do just want them to listen. But we are massive over thinkers. I think just as human beings and we, you know, we overthink it, we almost talk ourselves out sometimes of saying things to people, because we don't want to offend them, or we don't want to upset them more.

Gill Phillips: 20:39

Or avoid them, you know, the classic kind of'cross the road because you don't know what to say ...'

Leanne Howlett: 20:43

One of our volunteers who works for 'By Yo r Side', she lost her son at 37 weeks, really suddenly. And he said afterwards, after it happened, people crossed he road to avoid her and she s id that was literally the w rst thing they could have d ne. But yet, at the time, they d d it because they thought the were saving her and them from, I suppose awkward conversatio s and not knowing what to say, a d sort of, them thinking 'I'm g nna make you feel worse', so I just will avoid her. And ye she said, like, 'it made me feel even worse', like you don't it again, it's part of th t we all overthink thing, I think, rather than jus going with it and sort of let ing human nature take over.

Gill Phillips: 21:18

But I think, you're so right. And it's so obvious, but people, all of us, you know, don't necessarily intuitively think like that. And that's where hopefully, this podcast, this conversation now might make a difference to somebody who's in exactly that position and doesn't cross the road and perhaps is just a bit braver in terms of 'She's my friend, so I'm just gonna go and give her a hug'.

Leanne Howlett: 21:39

Yeah, exactly. I think that's what I always love about the Whose Shoes workshops as well, because that similar sort of thing, isn't it, it sort of dares to have those conversations, and say those things that you would never otherwise say to healthcare professionals, or that healthcare professionals would say to parents with you all in the same room, just talking quite openly about things. I think that's what I like about it because it's almost ... you state the facts, you say things as they are .... And I think it just makes the other people in the room think 'Oh, yeah'. And just like that, I can fix this, or I can do this differently, and it will make all the difference.

Gill Phillips: 22:11

Oh, thanks. And you know, there's a clever phrase I really need to learn. You know, I work with the Darzi fellows at London Southbank university, I love it. These are healthcare professionals from all sorts of different backgrounds, using Whose Shoes to understand about co production. And Professor Murray Wallace, who helps run the programme reviews our session with the students afterwards. And there's a clever academic phrase, oh what is it?'Inanimate actor', I think that's right. Inanimate actor, which means it's like the scenarios are perfo rming a function, coming from the middle of the room, and bringing the real issue, the real world into the room, into the session. It's not one of them having to say something. So for example, if I've got a scenario in like,'Well, it's all very well, as a midwife, I've just worked a 12 hour shift. And I haven't got time for any of this because I haven't even had time to go to the toilet', that just goes, bang to the real place. And perhaps what people are thinking sitting around, rather than if people are bottling up 'Well, this isn't real. My perspective is so and so. And of course we can add scenarios so if we find out that, you know, we want to make it like real and controversial, provocative, because that's how life is. And then hopefully you can have those discussions. And it brings out these taboo subjects or these difficult conversations about staffing levels, rather than just glossing over things, I guess. But it's it's, it's a bit risky. And it's a bit of a can of worms, and I'm very grateful to the hospital trusts and organisations who you can feel that they genuinely want to have co production because they're willing to kind of let the conversation go, where it needs to go and to listen, rather than to just get people to come along to kind of tick

their consultation/ outcome box: 24:01

you know, we've engaged with people, tick. It's a very different thing.

Leanne Howlett: 24:09

And it is a really different thing. And actually, I did a co production talk to our local LMS board only last week. And one of the things I put in there and I said was actually the fact that it's not just about professionals seeing what parents want. It's about parents learning from professionals too, and that sort of joint learning. And the midwives, they said they really liked that concept. But they haven't thought ... I think a lot of cooperation, sometimes people see it as 'oh, the service users are going to come along and criticise what we've done or what we want to do, and will just want me to make all these changes, but they won't understand what it's like for us and the barriers we face and they will just make us feel bad about all the things we do wrong. And it's not about that and actually there is that real shared learning, and you can learn from each other and it is those different perspectives I think are really important. And often you'll have parents say'if I've known they hadn't had a break for x number of hours ... they should have had a break. But at the time, all they're seeing is a stressed, flustered midwife who's maybe starting to get a bit snappy because they're tired. And everyone sort of lives in their own little view of it, I suppose. And they don't share that. And then that's how... where the misunderstandings come from.

Gill Phillips: 25:15

It really is. And I know, again, mentioning a name if you like .... Ann Remmers, the clinical lead for maternity and neonatal care down in the south-west, has been an amazing champion of Whose Shoes, and she was coming along to all the different workshops in the region. So I was thinking, 'Oh, how wonderful is that? how supportive!' and she said, Well, no Gill, she said, it's the, it's amazing, it's the one chance I get really just to kind of sit and chat to parents. I mean, she didn't say as equals, but that's what it is really, from both sides. And she said, without it having a label, like a complaint, handling, or a debrief, or a meeting with a kind of specific purpose ... it's just chatting. And she said, some of the small things that come out, you know, we wouldn't normally find out because it's either ... I mean, obviously, there are other types of feedback and 'friends and family' and so on, but people are probably exhausted at that point, and they don't just put the little bits and pieces that

help: 26:12

the special people, the health visitor that made that difference. And, if you can get the chance to, in some way, perhaps as an organisatio, feedback to those people as well... Or perhaps create something, you know, as one of our pledges or one of the innovations around setting up a little system that lets people have that feedback a bit more readily. It's very, I don't know, it's just nice, and it makes people feel good. And then they perhaps do a better job because they feel valued. Yes, it kind of positive circle, I guess.

Leanne Howlett: 26:40

Yeah. And I think that's what that to me, that's what I like about Whose Shoes I like the fact that .... I've done a few now, but I genuinely believe you could go and sit in a different Whose Shoes every single week with different people and you would learn new things every single time, it's never the same is it, you've never learned having the same. Even if you got the same parents in the same professionals in a room, you'd never have the same conversation twice, or different cards can lead to different things. And I think that's what it is. It is really rich, because you could sit in hundreds of them and always still learn new things.

Gill Phillips: 27:10

You can be a Whose Shoes junkie then ...

Leanne Howlett: 27:16

Come to them all...

Gill Phillips: 27:16

But it's right. I mean, you know, if we get the same scenario on a different table, we say to them, you know,'don't be afraid of like, oh, what did the scenario say again?' Because whatever conversation, it is that you're having, that's the one that needed to happen, because the scenario or the poem is just really a conversation starter, not prescriptive

Leanne Howlett: 27:36

Yes. If you go off to something else, it doesn't matter. It's like you said - the important points will come out of it.

Gill Phillips: 27:42

So in terms of one or two other things I was thinking that I wanted to promote for you really, I know, some of the work that you've done around peer support has just been extraordinary. And the work that you've done, for example, putting together gift bags for mothers and babies coming out of mother baby units. So yes, just a few words about that. And then we'll come on to your perinatal mental health walk.

Leanne Howlett: 28:07

Yeah, so the gift bags ... so it's an idea I hads based around when parents come out of mother ... talking to some parents that have come out of mother and baby units. I mean, I was very lucky, I managed to escape that. So I suppose it was all the things I had to think about when I was considering going into one, because it was definitely something which was quite heavily pushed on me by the team. And I think that, obviously it's the right thing you need to do at the time. But then when you come out of it, you're actually going from what is effectively a 24 hours a day sort of care people around there with you, everything on your lap for you. So having to go it alone in the community, and parents say you come out and you've suddenly got a one year old or a nine month old ... and mums' friendship groups have already been formed by then, everyone's already going about their lives and these nine month old babies, they've been doing for the last nine months, and you're sort of new on the scene all of a sudden. And it can feel really hard. And then sort of other ideas around the fact that there's no memories, you don't have memories. So it's something that really sticks in my head that ... neither of my children really have baby books because I was too unwell at the time. People are filling in baby books to do them. And so I don't know how those nice little mementos that people might have of their baby ... and just

trying to I suppose look at : 29:16

when you're unwell, what do you miss out on? How can help give that to parents. So that was sort of the idea around the the mother and baby unit pack so every time a mother is released from a mother and baby unit and discharged back home, we can provide them with a hamper with just a few things to sort of help settle them in. But in COVID, we've actually changed it again. So now we do a COVID wellbeing pack. So now we've broadened out our horizons and what. so now it's almost any parent who might be struggling or feeling isolated or ... if they're particularly struggling in some way ... there are so many ways that obviously mums can struggle particularly ... not that anyone's sort of any more important than the others. But I suppose if professionals think it might benefit a mum for some reason, they can now refer them in for a wellbeing pack. So I think we gave out about 87 over the last year in COVID, before we ran out of money, and then we've restocked the money back up again, I did a bit of a GoFundMe, and also had loads of donations of things, which is driving my husband insane. We've got boxes in the hall, we've got got boxes in the kitchen. And the idea is, that's gonna become a long term thing for us. So whereas originally, it was just a short term COVID thing, we've now decided to open that more regularly. So now be there'll be, we've actually gonna have a referral form and referral link. And if a professional of any sort things a parent will really benefit from this, we will send them one. And it's sort of been extended now to include things like colouring books and pens, and just little things, it's so easy. And I find myself doing it now because now I'm issued a mental health nurse and going out and seeing these people from sort of the other side of it. And you'll say to people, have you thought about doing some colouring, distract yourself with colouring and all this, it's like, that's all good and well, but thought of going out and buying the colouring book and buying crayons if you haven't got motivation, because you're not well, it's really hard. So we tried to sort of give people all the things to sort of look up their own self care which they might need. And so we give them a colouring book crayons, a candle, hand cream, sort of a nice sleep bath, bubble bath type thing, a face mask, I can't even think of all the things we've got in there, a journal and sort of loads of things around that, that we're sort of trying to do to give to parents. And the idea is we'll just start handing them out as regular as and when people want them. And there's a great bunch of people called the Warwickshire Sewing Bees on Facebook, who just sent us hundreds of like bags, little sewing bags, to put the things in and send them out, which was really lovely. So that was something we'll just carry on with. Now a lot of as part of our fundraising, we can include it into our budget, so we will fundraise we'll get more money in and then those bags will be covered for another year. And the idea I suppose we could just keep doing that. Because I suppose I don't it's not just about paeer support for me, it's about literally what do we need to do to make parents' lives easier, having to go through mental illness when you've got a baby, it's just so tough, and it's like anything we can do, I suppose to make it easier for them, then I want to do it.

Gill Phillips: 32:15

So I don't think you've got any idea Leanne how many different things you've touched on there, like really big things. And you know, to come back to that conclusion, which I think is amazing 'to make parents' lives easier'. But all of those things that feed into that so you've just briefly touched upon involving charities or involving the communities you know, contributing ... it gives other people a purpose as well because sometimes it's a bit like clapping the NHS ... You know, I'm not very interested in clapping the NHS, I want to know what I can actually do that, that helps people. So for example, Joan Pons, LaPlana who's going to be speaking as another podcast guest soon, raises money for Cavell Trust, which is a trust to help nurses in hardship. I'd rather support that.

Leanne Howlett: 33:01

I nominated my nurse for a Cavell award, the perinatal nurse who looked after me after having Miley and she got it as well.

Gill Phillips: 33:08

So all these stories ... so you might end up speaking to Joan. So, obviously I'm building the podcast and totally making it up as I go along. but I was aware that you've got your perinatal mental health walk, and I was able to help your previous one 2 years ago, and then the virtual walk that we did in the lockdown a year ago, and it's going to be on the 3rd of October. So I think to put your podcast out on the 3rd October will be pretty special.

Leanne Howlett: 33:36

Yeah, it'd be nice. Definitely. Yeah, I'm so glad we can finally hold it, to be honest, and I'm not sure what it's gonna look like, I don't think it's gonna be as polished and as good as 2019 one, it's sort of now or never in a way cos we're in October, it's an outdoor event. And if we don't hold it, now, it isn't going to happen. So I'm just gonna do it. And it will be what it will be. But it's a celebration for everyone to come together, I suppose in the meantime, and then we'll hold another one in May, for Awareness Week, like we always do.

Gill Phillips: 34:06

So I think that's absolutely brilliant. And you know, other things you've touched upon ... GoFundMe, and just growing things organically, you know, dealing with little things like ... er ... the pandemic, and just kind of adjusting. So I think our final kind of 'lemon lightbulb' that I just heard, probably two of them. So #JFDI, polite version'Just Do It', and celebrate what you're doing, you know ... it comes back to your idea Leanne of not overthinking things that you're just going to do it. It's not perfect. It's not going to be as good as two years ago, but it will be something and something is good, and it will lead to other things. And that's what you do, Leanne.

Leanne Howlett: 34:47

Yeah, thank you.

Gill Phillips: 34:49

So many things have come up that I now want to ask you all about. You haven't even mentioned you know, you threw away in passing "And now I'm a student mental health nurse". That's a whole extra story. Just so we'll probably have to, to have Part 2. So it's been brilliant talking to you. Thank you for fitting it in after putting your children to bed even though it took longer than we thought and that's life and that's brilliant and that's real. So thank you so much Leanne.

Leanne Howlett: 35:20

Thank you Gill.

Gill Phillips: 35:22

Okay, speak soon. Bye