Today we are walking - or should I say running - in the shoes of Joan Pons Laplana. Joan is one of the most interesting JFDI people I know. We all want to support the NHS, but Joan adds fun and creativity, so that we can all feel part of his adventures. Joan has just run the London Marathon , dressed as a pint of Guinness, raising money for Cavell Trust - supporting nurses at times of hardship.
Joan is exactly the sort of person I want to speak to in this podcast series – Full of ideas about how to make changes in the NHS, courageous in his thinking and actions, passionate about helping people, pushing boundaries … definitely a Wild Card!
Lots of lemon lightbulbs! 🍋💡🍋
See 'chapter headings' for more detail and to pick out your favourite bits, including:
We LOVE it when you leave a review!
If you enjoy my podcast and find these conversations useful
please share your thoughts by leaving a review (Apple is easiest to leave a review) and comment on your favourite episodes.
I tweet as @WhoseShoes and @WildCardWS and am on Instagram as @WildCardWS.
Please recommend 'Wild Card - Whose Shoes' to others who enjoy hearing passionate people talk about their experiences of improving health care.
Today we are walking - or should I say running - in the shoes of Joan Pons Laplana. Joan is one of the most interesting JFDI people I know. We all want to support the NHS, but Joan adds fun and creativity, so that we can all feel part of his adventures. Joan has just run the London Marathon , dressed as a pint of Guinness, raising money for Cavell Trust - supporting nurses at times of hardship.
Joan is exactly the sort of person I want to speak to in this podcast series – Full of ideas about how to make changes in the NHS, courageous in his thinking and actions, passionate about helping people, pushing boundaries … definitely a Wild Card!
Lots of lemon lightbulbs! 🍋💡🍋
See 'chapter headings' for more detail and to pick out your favourite bits, including:
We LOVE it when you leave a review!
If you enjoy my podcast and find these conversations useful
please share your thoughts by leaving a review (Apple is easiest to leave a review) and comment on your favourite episodes.
I tweet as @WhoseShoes and @WildCardWS and am on Instagram as @WildCardWS.
Please recommend 'Wild Card - Whose Shoes' to others who enjoy hearing passionate people talk about their experiences of improving health care.
So today we have the huge privilege of walking in the shoes of my friend Joan Pons Laplana or should I say running in his shoes? Joan is one of the most interesting JFDI people I know. We all want to support the NHS, but Joan adds fun and creativity, so that we can all feel part of his adventures. Joan's just run the London Marathon. I felt as if I was there, Joan, every step of the way. But obviously I wasn't! You were dressed as a pint of Guinness, raising money for nurses. Congratulations, Joan, you did it. You're indeed a fellow Wild Card. Thank you for joining me today, Joan and can you, tell us a bit more about yourself and what's important to you.
Joan Pons Laplana:A bit about myself. Obviously, as you can hear by this accent, this is not a Yorkshire accent. I was born in Barcelona, Spain a while ago and, from the beginning, I was very curious. I always used to explore a lot of product like Legos and everything and I was growing up, then I also like to, to make to make a difference to to make things better. And that's why I was inclined, I used to love science, I used to love nature and everything and, and then I decided to, by chance to became something connected with health but I didn't know exactly what, but nursing basically chose me by pure chance. And then I became involved in nursing. And I did love that action. Awesome. I'm actually I don't like the same things. Um, I found the place in A&E. And destiny again, brought me to United Kingdom over 21 years ago. And really, since then, I've been trying to make a difference I've been trying to, to turn also to become a rebel and to turn the NHS upside down. Because I think the power, the structure of the power is in the wrong place, we should give more power to the frontline, and to the patient. And believe me, if we do that, I think that everything will be a lot smoother. And we will get things right a lot quicker, and a lot cheaper. That's my philosophy. And since then I've been going into this journey. And I've been, I'm not anybody quite high up in the NHS, but but social media and other platforms have given me an opportunity to be more visible and to make nursing more visible. And I took full advantage of also showcasing the NHS and the good things and sometimes the bad things, but trying always to to bring some positivity to trying to make it better. And engaging. I love engaging with people and listening and stories. I learned I'm quite good at storytelling, and that's who I am.
Gill Phillips:So already, I think we're connecting in terms of you know, neither of us are in a position of positional power, but through social media and through the way that we kind of do things through storytelling and so on. That's what connects with people, isn't it? Yeah, I've just read your book, I think it's fantastic that you've actually managed to put your story into a book destiny and hope and I really recommend it to people, but it's full of little stories, isn't it? Stories of ups and downs and... tell us a bit more about that.
Joan Pons Laplana:Stories are what connects with everybody when we were born, everybody loves to go to sleep with a good story. And also the from history, from the beginning. That's how the knowledge was transmitted them from from town, village to village they used to come people telling the stories and and things. And that's why also the people learn more, the people don't learn reading PowerPoint presentations during the day, they like the stories the human side of that. And I think that's very powerful to find these connections. And these stories I thought, what I tried to do onto this book is, it is a serious book about my journey from from leaving Barcelona and my ups and downs in the NHS, but also try to give tips of what I did wrong because I did a lot of things wrong. So what can we do people who tried to make change and be a rebel, do it on a safer way because I was a bit of a kamikaze sometimes. And I think also I was one of the pioneers of using social media and all that and I just wanted to pass this knowledge . But also, I wanted to be honest, I want to open my heart and to show that nursing is a very beautiful profession, but it comes also with a price. And emotionally. It can be very hard too sometimes and basically that is the story because then I got involved in politics where I talk about while trying to make the NHS better and, but also is, is to want to show that I have no plan. I just walk my journey and take every day as it comes. And I grab every opportunity that comes to me with open arms. I, as I say, I'm very curious, I like to explore. And I like to see where it goes. I don't like to plan too much in too much I like to spontaneity and see where it goes. Sometimes it goes nowhere. A lot of times, they can go somewhere like this weekend I was in basically in every major television with my pint of beer. It's how it goes and I love that uncertainty sometimes that the you know that you make your way as you walk along.
Gill Phillips:So how did the pint of beer come around?
Joan Pons Laplana:Well, basically is obviously, as a nurse, I did work on the front line, I redeployed to the front line and it was quite hard for me mentally. And I started running as part of the treatment. My counsellor said why don't you run because I try other ways of, of expressing my feelings and everything. And that didn't work. And then I started running. And then I got the place in the London Marathon. Pure lottery because I applied other times and everything, never got in. And I wanted one of my bucket list is to have a Guinness World Record. And but everything, I think it was fate, everything coming to one place, because also the London marathon was moved to October, October is a month that I normally raise money for Cavell Trust, who you know is very close to my heart who help nurses going through hardship and everything come into place. And I say boy, I want to raise also visibility from Cavell Trust. But I also I want to celebrate to celebrate the fantastic work that all the frontline have done. And what can be more iconic to run as a pint of beer to celebrate and say cheers to everybody who can see and raise a smile also. But I wanted also to tell the story behind and raise awareness of mental health. And also, as I say, increased visibility of Cavell Trust. And if any nurse or any frontline out there, show me and then we'll get help. For me that's that's mission accomplished.
Gill Phillips:Yeah, I think I mean, honestly, Joan, it's really inspirational. In that I looked at the London Marathon, I got drawn into the whole thing. I saw your interview at the beginning, you've got the combination of promotional, properly promotional, you've got Text 'CheersNurse to 70085'. And it's just such an easy thing to do. And if you're watching that, and you're drawn into the story, people are busy. And you know, you can think I can just do that. So you know, the GoFundMe or whichever kind of big fundraising campaign, people have to actually log on. And, you know, a different type of person, probably your more serious supporters, but everybody can just that cost of the pint of wasn't it just a pint of Guinness. So the Guinness Book of Records - it's clever, and it's engaging. And of all the telephone boxes, and the rhinos and elephants and the wonderful costumes and the wonderful charities. And the reality is you're competing with all these different charities. So to come up with a truly compelling story that draws people in. And one thing I loved is, you know, the whole idea of like clapping for the NHS, it's fine. But like, if we really want to support the NHS, this is a really practical thing that people can do. And the power of social media to back that.
Joan Pons Laplana:Yeah, in a way this is the thing that I learned from my quality improvements and a lot of things that I've done. The key to succeed, any project or any campaign is simplify it and make it fun. If you have these two things together, the community they will be more successful because people are very busy in their lives. People get complicated, they are bombarded by emails and everything. But suddenly, if you see something is fun, and also, it doesn't take you more than one click or don't need to have a Master's to be able to do it. People will be a lot more engaged and everything. And I discovered that when I was a quality improvement nurse that I used to go to the wards, and everybody used to put me off and say, Oh, I'm too busy. Now I have 25 tasks, and then I realise, but if I make the project fun, and instead of trying to teach them during half an hour, if I do that five minute sessions of sepsis and everything, then I then got their attention. And people want to learn. I've discovered is people want to learn a lot. If they're having fun, they will remember you better and they will open the door and then that's when you can start engaging with them.
Gill Phillips:Yeah, and I've got a great story to tell you actually literally from this morning and I think you'll be really chuffed with this. So in terms of a future podcast guest, I've just been chatting with Jamie Waterall, Deputy Chief Nurse, really senior person but equally engaging, caring, compassionate, you know wants to reach out beyond the data. And draw people in. And I said, I was chatting to you later this morning. And he said, Oh, yes, he said, I remember. And he pretty much told me, and I've just read the book. So I've just read the proper version of how you first had a bit of a kind of epiphany moment I call it in terms of this is what nursing is in the ICU unit with the young man. So tell me that story. Because obviously, that had stayed with Jamie from years ago. And that's proving what you've just said that people remember the stories and they therefore remember you and your message.
Joan Pons Laplana:And for me, that was a very powerful moment, obviously, I never, when I was growing up, like a lot of youngsters, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I know what I wanted to be somehow health related. Then I became a nurse. And then I was a bit young, and I used to love gadgets. And but my focus, I went into A&E, and then I went to intensive care, when I came to England, my focus was more on the gadgets and it for me was fascinating, you know, and I'm playing with them to see if I can make it better. The patient laying in the bed was, was there, but I didn't pay more attention. Until I discovered a very powerful moment with that patient who was in a cubicle. And he asked me to, to see if he could see through the window. And when somebody gave me a challenge. I'm not the kind of person who normally goes away and says, No, I cannot do it, I always look to see if there is any way I can do it. And that goes in my mind. And then that challenge, that vision that he was connected to a lot of tubes and drains and everything they gave me because he wanted to experience to see outside, because he had been in intensive care for quite a few months. And he was depressed and he was not going anywhere. And then I did it, it took me nearly three hours to move out the equipment and everything. But I did in secret, I closed all the doors, I closed all the windows and everything because I didn't want to ask anybody because I knew the answer was going to be no, because I was gonna break a lot of health and safety rules. But I thought ... I always say, Well, if that's the right thing for the patient, let's do it. If you break health and safety rules, if I can justify it, I will do it, because that's the kind of thing that I will do. Because unless you break rules, you will never, you never go anywhere. History is full of people breaking rules. And now we have a lot of rights, woman rights, and, you know, and and all these other rights, that otherwise, we will still be in the Middle Ages. The moment that I put him in the window, I leave his bed, and he looked outside, I sat with him, that moment is, I still now have goosebumps, all my skin, I have goosebumps. That moment, I realise that the most powerful thing you can do is to make a difference to somebody and to and to, to realise that I did that, that with my effort and everything I have, I made somebody else happier, I transformed the life of that patient, but also that patient transformed my life. Because that patient that was on that unit, not going anywhere surely got better. And we didn't alter the treatment we did, the only thing that changed is that I put him in front of the window. And the doctor said, I don't know what happened, everything I say I know what happened, I put him but I couldn't tell it because obviously I did it in secret. And then then when I say what I did, and I was called by the matron, I the matron, told me ,"Joan, you know, you cannot do that. That's not safe and everything". But I say, I gave that patient something that was missing. I give that patient hope. And that hope is more powerful that any medicine, that patient visualised himself outside and that moment decided that he wanted to be outside and in less than a week, he went from intensive care to HDU and then to the to the ward, I never see the patient again. But also what that patient did is transformed my life because I discovered what I wanted to do for the rest of my life, I wanted to try to have the same feeling that feeling that if you can make a difference to somebody, it is the most powerful thing in the world. Unfortunately, sometimes there's a lot of barriers to be able to do that. And like any organisation, NHS sometimes is quite strict. It's getting better and everything is because we have a lot of rebels now and and we try to take over but at that point it was 20 years ago. It was quite unheard of that somebody like me, try to break the rules and isobey the command chain from top to below. But the problem is, the matron asked me,"Joan, don't do it again". And I told her, I'm always very honest so sorry, I cannot guarantee that. But what do you mean? Because if that means the patient will get better, I will break any health and safety rules, any other protocols, if that means that is the best for the patient. So if you do that, Joan, I will discipline you. So be it.. And, a few years later, when I moved to A&E, my philosophy carried on, I have a strong belief that always patients should be first. I got sacked, because I disobeyed some of my managers. But I will do it again and again and again. I'd rather get in trouble for doing the best for my patient than not following protocols and rules that are not in the best interests of people.
Gill Phillips:So that literally gave me goosebumps as you were describing how hope, that word hope. And we all need hope in our lives don't we - without that there is nothing. And the other thing that is obvious, really, when I think about it, but you just made me think about it, as you were telling that story is our mutual friends. So'Jenny the M', she climbed the ladder, to write 'skin to skin' across the theatre wall because people weren't listening, and she knew she was gonna get into shedloads of trouble. And she did. But we need, like you say, we need those rebels. We need people with courage. And that's the word ..., who are prepared to... you're shaking, I think in some of these situations, because you know, you're going to get into trouble. But with the vision of the patient, in Jenny's case, the mum the importance of skin to skin in that first hour, it mattered so much to her. And clearly equally, you know, to you and other rebels within this group. And I guess the other thing I was thinking is what a sense of community we've all got from linking up with each other, sharing these stories, and getting that kind of friendship and community ... and bit more courage.
Joan Pons Laplana:Yeah, that helped me a lot. That's why I love social media. Because Initially, I felt very isolated when I got sacked and everything, that was before social media started. And what I discovered in social media is that I was not alone, the day I discovered that there were more rebels in the system. And I discovered that through Helen Bevan and the NHS change day when I went to London, and I joined the first NHS Change Day, I did cry, because I found my tribe, I found the people where I belong with the rebels. And then I started connections. And suddenly, I started learning a lot and how to survive in this environment. Because alone, it's very difficult. But together, we are more powerful. And that also gave me more opportunity. And that's when also I managed to gain a lot of success with my ideas or my projects and everything, I've managed to break a lot of boundaries, because I learn from other rebels how to how to survive. And that's also my legacy that I've done in this book, I'm trying to help other people who come to want to be rebels. I'm called to survive in the system. The first thing they want to do if you're a rebel is to shoot you down.
Gill Phillips:Yeah, yeah, that's a powerful thing to say is that the first thing they want to do, to use a rebel is shoot you down. And I think from my experience, also in terms of how I came to set up Whose Shoes, there's something around human nature, that's not very nice, sometimes in terms of you see people either rising above their station, or moving outside the box that you kind of define them by, then there can be a tendency not to be supportive. And I see a lot of people who, you know, I guess like yourself, like, Jenny, like many others, and probably myself really, that you kind of end up getting influential on a national stage, and people are really learning and, you know, supporting you in terms of what you're doing, and you're encouraging them to be more bold, and so on. But sometimes that doesn't fit with your actual place of work or ... that might be a difficult thing to talk about. You don't then have to talk about that. But that's just a reflection on my
Joan Pons Laplana:Yes, it's difficult. Because to be a rebel part. also, you need a manager who allows you, you need the space, you need also the support, and that's quite difficult. And that is changing now. I discovered that to be a rebel also you need to have a space, a safe space where you can try. And that's I think it changing and Leadership Academy, the NHS have done a lot of work to create leaders who allow this creativity, the best thing that you can allow your staff is to be creative, because I always say, if you have a problem, the best person who you need to ask is the patient and the staff because they live with that problem. And I'm sure that a lot of them, they have already the solution. We just need to create the space to try to have the solution and a lot of managers, middle managers. The problem in our managers is ... they are like a sandwich, they have pressures from above, because they have targets and they have pressures from below, because they need to deliver. And they have the staff. And the key thing, when you have a lot Yeah, that's been such an incredible network and as are of pressures, you go to a safe mode and safe mode is not to take risks. And that's the worst thing you can do.The best thing you can do is to allow and trust your staff, to, you know, to do the job, and not micromanage and create that space, that we can challenge the system and try to find solutions. And that for me, is very, very important. Middle management, I think is the key for the NHS. And there's a lot of variety, the pain is a lot of trusts that you go to, they shoot you down, other trusts are quite good. And yes, I have hadvthe luck, the ability that I've been able to move, and I've been to some very good thrusts, and other ones not so good. But I think we get in there. But some trusts are very risk adverse. Because obviously we are playing with people's health and everything. And I always remember when I went to one of my projects, and the chief executive didn't want me to do this project. And he said, Oh, well, how can we go if you go wrong? And I say, Well, what happens If it goes right, say, okay, what's the chances of it going right? Say, but I don't know. But can we carry on doing nothing? And they say, Oh, no, that's true, Joan, but what do you propose, I mean, at least, if we do something, even if it is outside the box, we have the chance to succeed. But that makes chief executive and the management very nervous, because with everything that you try there's the possibility of failure, but we need for this, we need to break that stigma about failure. You cannot succeed without failing, it is impossible. Nobody anywhere in the world have succeeded without failing and failing and failing again. But by failing, we need to learn and do and then carry on and do it better. That's the only way is you learn that from from walking from childhood, the only way you can learn to walk is falling, falling the same riding a bicycle, unless you fall a lot of times, then then you don't ride the bike. And here in the NHS, pretending that we don't need to learn anything, we just got to find a solution automatically. It's impossible. You need to try and try again. And then you modify things. And then you'll get the resolution. That's why I love Qi systems and all quality improvement that I learned with Helen Bevan and Jackie Lyton - they had a big influence on me. the whole school for healthcare change agents and so on. It's very special. yeah, Yeah, that's well, no, I do. I was one of the first I was on the first cohort of the school for rebels at that point was they were calling the name change agents are a bit more, you know, people are more able to go to your manager and say, I want to be a rebel, they'd say you know, but if I want to be a change agent, it's a bit more you have a licence to change, that's a bit more commercial and better, but the spirit is still the same, it is to show and to teach rebels. How to make it better, to survive in an environment, that they're not ready for you to be a rebel.
Gill Phillips:And the whole What is it? 'Do it first and seek forgiveness'? Well, yeah, , it's a philosophy, isn't it? It's good fun.
Joan Pons Laplana:I do it and then yeah, as I say, by the time normally by the time that you ypou.ve done something ... but I learned that jobs need to get results,data. I used to hate maths at school but now maths are my best friends and I always gather the results and evidence because I know what I'm going to get in trouble when I do some changes. But if I come back and say, hey, look, yeah, I changed that but have a look at, you know, we have reduced the level of infections by 2%. Then the manager says, okay, carry on, Joan, carry on, you know, but normally, because I was very frustrated and because every time I wanted to do something different, I needed to go through a chain of command and meetings and meetings I'm at a time that sometimes by the time that they come back to me "You can do it" we are six months down the line. And I said well, that's too late I want to do it now and then I realised Oh, let's do it. I'll do it. And then when they call me because they realised that I was doing something I said, Yeah, I'm doing that. But I learned to believe in myself, did they have a look at the statistics, you know, we managed to see more patients because we have reduced these these and these and that also have saved me a lot of problems.
Gill Phillips:I think that's clever. I mean, I think sort of doing things within the system. So you realise what's important to the system. Yeah. And how to make the changes that you're making more palatable, more acceptable, and just give yourself that bit more licence. I guess.
Joan Pons Laplana:You need to learn the language. It's not the same talking to a manager as talking to somebody on the front line. Like the manager has more focus on make making sure the levels and infections are down, making sure that length of stays are also as short and improved things; the front line, they want to make a difference. And that means that always flexible in my projects, when I talk to a manager, I talked to them in a language same when I talk to nurses, or I talk to doctors, they have a different language. And learning the language for me is quite powerful. It's called Learning English or Spanish, every tribe they have their own language, and you need to learn what motivates them to be able to engage with them, because you need all of us to engage on that project. Because you cannot do the project alone, that's also what I learned very quickly the language to be able to the people who are on the fence and say, Oh, I don't know what Joe is doing, to bring them with you And then when they're with you it's very powerful.
Gill Phillips:And I guess that's where, you know, from my point of view, the Whose Shoes approach comes in, in terms of looking at things from different perspectives. And you know, people think, Whose Shoes is about putting yourself in the shoes of the person or the patient. And of course it is. But it's not just that, because it's understanding what it's like to be the frontline staff. And we need people who like yourself, you know, are fired up to want to be part of that profession, to want to stay in the profession to have the freedom to actually, you know, you want people to get out of bed in the morning and kind of be wanting to come to work to pick up and, you know, to build on what they're doing and to make a difference to people. And similarly, you've got to live in the real world of, the data and the infection control, and the statistics, and so on. And when you can actually bring all those different perspectives together, that's when through co production, you find the solutions that actually work.
Joan Pons Laplana:Yeah, that's what I found in my 20 years of nursing that the only way you can guarantee an increase in succeeding exponentially is by coproduction. and unless you coproduce with everybody, then your chances of fail8ng are quite high. And I always remember that data, that Helen always told me. Every time you do a quality improvement project, you have 70% chances is to fail but with coproduction I think, we aew in the 30% chance to succeed. And that.s why it's important. And I always say you need to involve patients and front-line and sometimes a lot of managers doing qualty improvement, they forget who is going to deliver and implement these projects and they think they have the solution but sometimes you believe tgat you have the solution but your patients and you staff tell you otherwise. You need to trust them because I always believe that they know better. I learned that when I was a community nurse. One day, I was teaching a woman about diabetes and I stopped and said hang on a minute, how long have you been a diabetic? And she said "I've been a diabetic 45 years Joan" and I said, who am I to teach you about diabetes, you probably can tell me everything about diabetes. The problem that you have is not that you don't know about diabetes, it's, something else that meams that this is not well controlled. And when I started this conversation, she told me the reasons why she was missing some insulins,and then we created a plan together how to improve and wow, that lady didn't have any more hypers or hypos and it was because I had empowered that lady to do what she wanted to do and my advice to make it safe. And that's the role I think that a nurse needs to do. We don't need to tell people what to do, we need to empower them to make the right decision.
Gill Phillips:Well, I think that's great. We said we'd try and keep to about 30 minutes. I know we could talk all day Joan and to kind of bring the podcast almost full circle in that at the beginning , literally at the beginning you were talking about turning the NHS upside down and letting the patients and the frontline staff lead. And I think probably that's the key lemon lightbulb, the key message from this session, would you say?
Joan Pons Laplana:Yeah , I think that trust your patient, trust your staff and have conversations, engage with people, learn about other people, be curious. Curiosity is one of the best drivers. And sometimes when we became adults, we try to kill curiosity. No be curious. If you have one quality, explore, be curious, and learn. Never stop learning. Because life is, for me, It's been exciting when you learn new things.
Gill Phillips:Brilliant. Thank you so Joan. That's been just so lovely to talk to you. And especially so soon after following you so closely on the London Marathon. Congratulations and no doubt you've got plenty more projects, which you may not even know what they are yet because I know you take each minute as it comes, which is fantastic.
Joan Pons Laplana:Thank you very much Gill .