72. Maff Potts - Camerados and Public Living Rooms - A Christmas Cracker!

🎄🎧 A bit of a Christmas cracker (with maverick music included) 

A conversation full of humanity.

In this Wild Card – Whose Shoes episode, Gill Phillips chats with Maff Potts, founder of the Camarados movement and creator of Public Living Rooms - simple, welcoming spaces where people can put their feet up, enjoy no-agenda company, and look out for each other.

No labels. No tick boxes. No “fixing”. Just people. 

Maff brings stories (and piano!) from his journey: from working in homelessness, to advising government, and very intentionally returning to grassroots connection, where real change happens. Together we explore why kindness, laughter, and belonging aren’t “nice extras” - they’re essential.

🍋💡🍋 Lemon lightbulbs

🍋 “Where would you put the KPI for this?” The case for humanity, music and improvisation over metrics.

🍋 Public Living Rooms = connection + purpose (without needing a “service” or a diagnosis).

🍋 Permission to be a bit rubbish - and why failure/iteration can be a superpower (England vs Silicon Valley!).

🍋 A powerful example of language changing everything: when “Put your feet up” became “It’s time to talk #MentalHealthAwarenessWeek”… footfall dropped from 1000 people to 40.

🍋 The “how” matters: how we welcome, speak, listen, and create environments that help people feel human.

If you’ve ever felt weary of spreadsheets, assessments, and VIP top tables … this episode is for you. #NoHierarchyJustPeople

🫖 Want to start a Public Living Room? Find out more at camarados.org (and you might just receive a beautiful permission-giving box to get you going). #JFDI 

Happy Christmas everyone! 

Links:

Home - Camerados

“It takes a village” 

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Wild Card Whose Shoes Gill sets the scene: coproduction, curiosity, “walking in other people’s shoes”… and why this episode is a Christmas cracker
• 2:40 Enter Maff (with a piano fanfare) Imposter syndrome, humour, and a larger-than-life guest who brings music as an emotional crutch (and a joy amplifier)
• 3:29 Where would you put the KPI for this? Music as the perfect rebellion against tick boxes: humans are messy, improvisation matters, and spreadsheets can’t measure sunshine
• 4:32 Laughter as a life-raft Why joy isn’t optional when life is hard — and why healthcare spaces could feel more human
• 5:41 The hospital piano: instant connection Maff volunteers at the Churchill Hospital: a foyer piano changes the emotional temperature in seconds
• 6:31 “It Takes a Village” in Buckinghamshire Gill shares a brilliant example of playful, local, inclusive co-production (tables named after villages, friendly competition, real actions)
• 7:43 NHS Public Living Rooms: humanity under pressure Maff shares how emergency departments—where stress is highest—still make time for connection
• 9:28 So what is a Public Living Room? The simple magic: connection + purpose. No agenda. No labels. No fixing. Just somewhere to put your feet up and be human
• 13:26 The van, the sofa … and pavement activism Maff’s “illegal furniture” pop-ups on high streets: making connection visible, irresistible, and wonderfully unfiltered
• 14:58 The genius of “I don’t know” Why you don’t put up a sign saying “sit down for a chat” - and how curiosity invites people in without pressure
• 15:49 No hierarchy, just people Gill’s 'Whose Shoes?' workshop approach: no introductions, whole selves at the table, and the quiet power of dropping professional armour
• 18:03 Music break while Gill finds her thought A playful reset - and a reminder that maverick moments are part of the method.
• 18:36 “Brave” (and the mismatch between bold talk and brave action) Why organisations say they want bold … then squash it. A sharp look at courage, culture ... and what happens on Monday morning.
• 21:01 Leaders vs managers A punchy distinction: leadership creates direction and energy; management keeps the machine moving. (And why we need both)
• 24:21 How Maff ended up on the Kindness Conversation A lovely thread of connection: Connie Junghans, Community Health Workers, Bob Klaber - and the community that held the space (even when tech failed)
• 26:20 Not celebrating failure - normalising it. Iteration, learning fast, and why England’s fear of embarrassment slows everything down
• 29:46 “We love innovation… but it hasn’t been done before.” A painfully perfect cartoon moment - and Maff’s provocative truth: human connection isn’t innovative, we’ve just forgotten it
• 32:18 Campfires, stories… and Maslow’s missing truth The Indigenous roots of what Maslow actually learned: the answer is community - and why systems struggle to hold that
• 35:08 The NHS machine vs the human condition A powerful reframing: if you build for spreadsheets, you won’t get human outcomes. The “wrong tool for the job” problem
• 38:20 Life makes people ill Gill connects the dots: social determinants, mosaics of support, and the extraordinary network of people quietly building better ways
• 41:03 Bromley by Bow: the mosaic in action A real-world example of joined-up life-and-health support: housing, health, food, community, activity - all in one place
• 43:50 Community as pressure-release valve Maff’s big point: loneliness and “a rubbish life” show up in GP appointments - connection could stop problems reaching crisis point
• 46:12 The HOW is the work A goosebump moment: Maff’s scan experience (no words, no goodbye) - and why “how we do things” shapes healing and trust
• 48:19 1000 to 40: language that shuts doors The jaw-drop story: “Put your feet up” welcomed 1000/week … “#MentalHealthAwarenessWeek” dropped it to 40. Words matter.
• 51:27 How to start a Public Living Room The practical invitation: camarados.org, a chat with an existing host, the “permission-giving” box … and keeping it light, fun, and a bit rubbish
• 53:10 Dreaming of a White Christmas - our festive musical close! :)
• 53:49 Gill’s outro - Subscribe, review, share - and more wild card conversations in the pipeline!

Transcript

Gill Phillips  0:00  

My name is Gill Phillips, and I'm the creator of Whose Shoes, a popular approach to coproduction. I was named as an HSJ 100 wild card, and want to help give a voice to others talking about their experiences and ideas. I love chatting with people from all sorts of different perspectives, walking in their shoes. If you are interested in the future of health care, and like to hear what other people think, or perhaps even contribute at some point, wild card whose shoes is for you. So welcome back for another episode of The Wild Card who shoes Podcast. I'm really looking forward to the conversation today I'm talking to someone who is larger than life and full of humanity. So dear listeners, have you heard of Camarados or Public Living Rooms? You are in for an absolute treat, people getting together and looking out for each other, no strings attached, no labels or medical definitions. How simple is that? The absolute opposite of tick boxes and metrics. It's all just so simple and beautiful and human. So today I have the huge pleasure of chatting to Maff Potts, the founder of the camaraderie global movement. He is one of the most influential voices in social care in the UK. I first came across Maffs extraordinary work before the pandemic, and then we randomly met up again at the monthly kindness conversation run by Bob Kleber, where Maff was a speaker in November. It was extraordinary to hear how Maffs journey has progressed in the meantime to becoming a government advisor, and then very intentionally, coming right back to grassroots level, because that's where the real change happens. Maff brings together so many themes of this podcast series and my wider whose shoes work, people coming together as human beings, connecting, listening, having fun, no hierarchy, just people and indeed, music. So I hope that set the scene a little bit welcome. Raph, it's such a big story, I have no idea where to start, but I'm hoping that you do always

Maff Potts2:40  

important to bring you on piano in order to give yourself a fanfare. Well, you've really set me up there one of the most influential voices in social care

Gill Phillips  2:49  

I think so.

Maff Potts2:53  

It all sounds very portentous, and I've got enormous imposter syndrome, but that's why I bring my piano as an emotional crutch to help me through these kind of conversations. It's so lovely of you to invite me on though. Gill, thank you so much. It's amazing what you're doing.

Gill Phillips  3:08  

Oh, thank you. Maff, it's Yeah, I think this is a real coming together of two approaches that are very, very different, but so much synergy in terms of what we're trying to achieve and doing things differently, I think, and not not going down that measurement box of, you know, the only things that are valuable are things that can be counted and in control,

Maff Potts3:29  

really, yeah. Well, not a bad metaphor the piano or music. Is it? Because, how would you measure? How would you measure? Bring me sunshine. By more common wise, I mean, it makes you feel great, doesn't it, yeah, yeah. But where would you? Where would you put the KPI for this? And I'm also a jazz piano player, so I like to mess around you. Important to improvise and ad lib, and that's where the joy lies. So I think again, that's a kind of good metaphor for not staying inside the tick box arena, because humans like music. Are messy. No, we're not efficient, and we're pretty full of angles, aren't we, and imperfections which make us who we are, and it's hard to put that in a spreadsheet.

Gill Phillips  4:32  

And laughter, I mean, immediately you played that more common wise clip, it made me laugh. And laughter gets through so much crap, doesn't it? It really does. 

Maff Potts 

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. 

Gill Phillips  

It sort of helps you through these difficult times. Yeah.

Maff Potts4:45  

I mean, it's weird, isn't it? For years and years and years, I worked in very institutional and traditional organizations and settings, and it's really interesting that we never thought about the importance of having a laugh and being a bit happy. Yeah. Yeah. And you'd think that when you work with people in grinding misery, that that's actually kind of quite important, you know, yes. And it makes me think about health settings, because invariably, people in health settings are going through a tough time, so, you know, a bit of fun and laughter might help. But you don't necessarily get that invitation or that vibe for most of the settings where health exists, you don't walk inside a hospital and think, Oh, this is comfy and cozy and funny. And you know, now people would say that's because it's not meant to be, but actually, I think it might help,

Gill Phillips  5:34  

yeah, and just the occasional Hospital has got a piano, yep, in the entrance for you. And doesn't that make a difference

Maff Potts5:41  

Big time. In fact, I used to volunteer at the Churchill in Oxford, and I used to, I used to play the piano in the foyer, and they used to record it and use it for hospital radio. And it was really lovely to sit there. And you could tell that most of the people around me were obviously going for fairly scary appointments. It's a cancer specialist hospital, so you knew that there was some heavy stuff going on, and as soon as I started playing the piano, you could see everybody smiling at me. And you kind of thought, well, that's got to be a good thing, right?

Gill Phillips  6:09  

Yeah, it's just such a leveler, such a human connection, isn't it? And, yeah, I think this is my Christmas edition, so we will need some Christmas music as we go along. I think

Maff Potts6:28  

I'm available for children's party and weddings.

Gill Phillips  6:31  

Gill, perfect. That's so good. And I was thinking of, you know, in terms of fun. In a healthcare session, we did a workshop that, really, I don't know, we were proud of, and it was fun, and it was called this was only a couple of months ago in Buckinghamshire. It takes a village, and I've basically thrown out the challenge that, okay, we'll have a whose shoes workshop, but the more you can make it local and fun and engaging, and in terms of how you invite the people really inclusive and welcoming, and the opposite of, we need to hear your views, you know, just bring people along to start conversations. And they really, really embraced. It was the maternity team in Aylesbury. Oh, wow. And they had the tables were named as local villages, and they had a bit of a competition between the tables as to who was coming up with the best actions. It was just really, really good fun. But I think it takes courage in the NHS at the moment, because things are meant to be so serious and so difficult, which they obviously are, but they're still human beings wanting to come together and make change.

Maff Potts7:43  

I'd love to talk to some people who are under a great deal of Australian stress within the NHS, and ask them if, if that stuff eventually sort of has to come out, because, like, the only way you can keep saying sometimes is through humor. I mean, I know it's off quoted, but that this is going to hurt book by Adam Kay that is full of humor and jokes. Yes, it is. Yeah, it's interesting that when we put public living rooms in hospitals, and we did six NHS hospitals, and over three months, 130,000 people used them. This was pre pandemic, before they were all closed down, we found that it was the emergency departments where the most stress was happening that actually found time to come into the public living room and put their feet up. And everyone told me they would never have enough time because things were so crazy, but they make time because without a bit of company connection laughter and humor, they can't get through the shift. So yeah, it's actually a requirement. Do you know what I mean? So you're quite white, these are very serious situations, but that's all the more reason, therefore, to find humanity then,

Gill Phillips  8:50  

and you can find it everywhere. That's what I've found. You can just cut through that. Whoa, you know, not sure about this, and then people embrace it. Then you just discover the people, don't you, and they if you get a good team coming together, or perhaps a team that was struggling to come together, they come together through a bit of fun and through actually listening to each other. So Maff, I knew this would happen. Okay, we've gone, we've gone, charge again, and it's been great. And, no, no, it's very, very good. And I love the music, and we definitely could, could do more of that, but people need to know what public living rooms are, and I mentioned camerado. So what's it all about?

Maff Potts9:28  

I'll keep it simple, because I think some people may have heard of it and and also you can find out if you Google it. But we were moving, I started it in my bedroom 10 years ago, and then bit by bit, we have grown the idea that it was founded on the basis that what people need to get through tough times is two things, connection and purpose. The book I wrote recently is called friends and purpose, but actually, you don't even need it to be a full friendship. It could just be some form of connection. Yep. And those are the two things. Things that are a constant through people who turn their lives around from tough times and they're they're also the two things that the absence of is what plunges people into a lot of social problems. And so I kind of realized that after 20 years of working in homelessness, where we never asked anybody if they ever had any form of connection, and we never really connected them to their purpose, we just looked at housing and benefits. You know, both are useful, but they didn't actually turn anyone's life around. So started in my bedroom thinking, right? I got to work differently and and basically, after a lot of a lot of mistakes and cock ups and trying things out and not working, we eventually ended up on this model that people liked, which we call a public living room. Actually, you're, you're the CO production queen, aren't you? Gill, so you'll love it if I tell you that the name, the definition of camerados, came from other people, the name public living rooms came from people who use the service. Perfect. Yeah. Basically everything we do is from things we've overheard in conversations, and ask people anyway. So public living very, very simply is a space could be in your community, anywhere where people can go for some no agenda company put your feet up. Permission to be a bit rubbish. Mix with people who aren't like you disagree is okay. And what I'm naming here are actually the principles of the space, because when we first started people didn't necessarily use it to look out for each other and be very mutual and want it together because, because people come with hierarchies and we're all a bit weird. So we needed some principles in this space, and the principles essentially revolve around making it more human and mutual. Hence, permission to be rubbish, permission to disagree, permission to mix with people who aren't like you. And if you do these principles, what tends to happen is people kick off their shoes, they talk about biscuits for an hour with someone, and they feel connected and human, listened to, and useful and trusted, and all the things that we kind of often have missing, because they kind of fall between the gaps of services when you're hunting for an outcome, yes, so there's no outcome. Hunting allowed in a public living room. It's a no fixing zone. And what happens is, when you emancipate yourself from that that pursuit, what happens is a hell of a lot more gets done. And actually, brilliant ideas do come but they come up organically through conversation exactly, instead of someone sitting with a needs and risk assessment asking you very pointed and invasive questions, so a no agenda place for company and people do in hospitals, libraries, parks, community centers, wherever, and we send them a box of resources and and that gets them going. Think of it a bit like a knitting group or book club. It's very much in the civic realm. It's not a service. It's just people locally who give a damn and create a space, and they do it where they want and when they want. Some people do it every day as part of their community center. Others pop it up on a Saturday morning outside their house or Wednesday evening in a cafe wherever. And we've gone from my bedroom to almost 300 in six countries now, really taken off in the States. And so, yeah, it, it's kind of grown, and it's a little open source idea and a social movement.

Gill Phillips  13:16  

I think it's absolutely fabulous. And you mentioned they're just in passing outside their house as one of the examples. And I love the fact that you're outdoors as well as indoors. Yeah.

Maff Potts13:26  

I mean, a lot of people prefer the outdoors because there's no threshold to cross. You just sit down as you're walking past. And often opening a door into a room full of strange people is a bit of a turn off a lot of people. So outdoors ones are brilliant. I probably ought to point out at this point that I do something which is, perhaps some people think is, is how to do a public living. It's actually just a bit of awareness raising, which is, I do them on pavements in high streets up and down the country. And I do that as a bit of activism, to tell people about it, to highlight the importance of human connection. And hopefully they'll get in touch and they'll do a public living room in their library or their hospital or wherever. So I'm not saying everyone should do them in the street. It's more of awareness raising, but yeah, I after, well, after the pandemic made isolation mandatory, and then the cost of living crisis made it inevitable. I panicked, to be honest, Gill, because isolation, for me, is the root of all evil. So I, yeah, I hit the road in a van full of furniture, and I illegally put furniture on high streets, wing back to armchairs, sofas, and I sit down with the newspaper. And anyone who sits down, I just have Anna with them.

Gill Phillips  14:36  

And I think that brings in the other big one, doesn't it, which is curiosity, like, what on earth that guy doing in his wing back sofa on our High Street? And people will walk past, and they'd look and would they have the confidence to actually come over? So is it a certain type of person who, you know, if they don't know what's going on, would come and join you?

Maff Potts14:58  

Well, the whole person. Purpose of just sitting down in the newspaper and reading is, I want it to be completely unfiltered. So when they say to me, what is this? I say, I don't know. I love that, as if I've just found it too, because otherwise they'll see me as staff or volunteer. The worst thing to do would be to write something on the board like sit down for a chat. It sounds like come and talk to this strange man who wants to enter. So we just make it a place where you can put your feet up. And then inevitably, we'll notice each other either end of the sofa, and one person will say, weather's nice today, and you know, or you know, what's your name. And we just have an unfiltered conversation with no pressure, no agenda, and lots of people sit down, and sometimes they don't want to talk, quite often they want to fall asleep and just curl up, and that's fine, yeah, rest a while.

Gill Phillips  15:49  

So that's very similar in a way, like, obviously, what I do is different, but with a lot of synergy, I think. And we have workshops, so we get people around the table, and they deliberately don't introduce themselves, and we've got a big hashtag, no hierarchy, just people. And it's not about hiding who you are, but it's trying to make it as part of a normal conversation. And then we find things like, you know, really moving moments, such as, have a workshop around dementia, and the chief executives come in, and then you find out that her own mother's got dementia, or her child's got a learning disability or whatever it is, because it's people not talking in their professional roles. It's just bringing their whole selves to the conversation. Brilliant. So yeah, I'm loving this conversation. I'm really loving it.

Maff Potts16:36  

No, but that's great. I love that approach, because what you're doing, and so many people forget this, what you're doing is your whole event, and your whole approach is embodying what you believe in, in your values. And it's so funny how so often people will say, talk about involvement, participation, consultation, and then you'll arrive at their event, and there's a big top table of people talking at lots of other lower down, people who are not invited to speak. You're like, I'm not sure you really got this participation thing, you know? Yeah. I mean, I'm guilty of it in the past, you know, holding a conference about involving people who use our service, and then not having any of them speaking at all, you know, yeah, not noticing. So everything we do ought to embody the thing we're trying to do. And so often we don't. We don't do that in the same way as I'm saying, a lot of health doesn't actually create environments where you feel happy, yes, you know, or healthy, and it's not a concern, which is ironic. So yeah, I love I love you describing that. I like going to events where you have to write your name on a name tag, and I like being a bit provocative and just writing ask me on my name tag and to encourage people to actually talk to me.

Gill Phillips  17:55  

Yes, yeah, yeah. So I had a good thought, and I've lost it completely.

Speaker 2  18:03  

I'll put some music in while you think, Okay, have you remembered?

Gill Phillips  18:16  

How can I remember when you're doing that? Oh, see, my mind goes off on one I'm thinking that my intro and exit music for my podcast is called Brave. Cellos and violins,

Unknown Speaker  18:28  

brilliant. I like the sound.

Gill Phillips  18:36  

That is the name of it. And we started to look for the music that I was going to use, and Collum, my husband, was, you know, very helpful, and he was going to go and find 100 other pieces to compare, and it was the first one I listened to, and I loved the name, and I loved the music, and I love stringed instruments. So it was kind of like, No, we don't, we don't need to do that massive research exercise. We're there.

Maff Potts19:01  

That's great. I like the word brave in there. That's good. Yeah, brave tellers and violins. Funnily enough, there is a connection with our conversation there, because I don't know about you, but I wonder if many of your listeners would find this a familiar tale. But have you noticed how much stuff, whether it's in the health and social care realm, or anywhere in the sort of public sector or third sector realm is always talking about either looking for bold, brave ideas in members of staff when they're recruiting, or bold strategic vision when they're looking for, like, you know, new plans. And then when it comes down to it, actually, that's not who they hire or what they write. And I think there's this disconnect between how we advertise what we want, and then when it comes down to it, on a Monday morning, what we go for. And I really think at some point, if you're after bold leadership, you ought to probably. Recruit the odd bold leader. Just saying, just

Gill Phillips  20:04  

say, well, I can actually think of certainly one big example, and probably more than one, where, sadly, the organization did that and did recruit the bold person, and then basically squashed them down. And you know, when they brought those exact things that they thought they wanted to the table, they were not welcome. And you know, you get a terrible situation then, because the person's moved job, they've been excited about the new opportunity. It's a big one. They've brought their heart and soul to it that they were the bold person. But actually, you know, has the organization then got the courage to see it through?

Maff Potts20:43  

You're not describing in the first 20 years of my career. Are you there?

Gill Phillips  20:47  

Sadly, I'm describing a lot of people's career, including my own, in a way. You know, I think there's a pattern isn't there with with people who want to actually make a difference and organizations that think they want to be transformational. Another word,

Maff Potts21:01  

well, it's also, I think what you're describing is something I I don't talk a lot about, but I think there's, you know, there is a real difference between leadership and management. Yeah, and, and, I think quite often we think we've got leaders, but we've got managers. I'm not doing down managers. Goodness knows we need them, but there was a distinct difference, and there should be. And you know, I often shy away from the word leader, because I find it often full of a lot of ego and vanity, but the truth is, is that leadership is saying, here's where we're heading. And I know none of you think we can get there, but we can, and we'll figure it out, and it's going to make you want to get out of bed in the morning. And tap the steering wheel enthusiastically as you pull into the NHS car park, because you're part of something important. And we're going to get there and I'm going to be alongside you. That's, you know, that's kind of leadership. Management is a much more sort of technocratic, you know, nothing wrong with pragmatism, but it doesn't make you leap out of bed in the morning. It just makes you sort of manage a situation. Bit by bit. And unfortunately, management doesn't make you lift your eyes up from the doldrums. And it doesn't give fire in the belly. It doesn't give energy. And so people know they need it, so they hire for it, and then they expect you to be a manager and no leader, and I think it is really different. And, you know, dare I say it, though I have a lot of respect for the people running our country at the moment, they're managers.

Gill Phillips  22:30  

Yeah, yeah, that's powerful.

Unknown Speaker  22:35  

We need leaders, not managers.

Gill Phillips  22:38  

So talking about leaders in terms of the people that I'd see as leaders. So is it perhaps an opportunity to come on to how we recently sort of reconnected, for the people listening, I'd say, MAF and I knew each other quite a few years ago before the pandemic, and have been around each other's work and particularly on Twitter. And you know, perhaps hopefully inspired by what each other do a little bit. Certainly, I've been inspired by you Maff, but we came together, and I was just so excited. Listeners will have heard me banging on about my monthly kindness conversation, because I am a proper regular on that and people on that conversation. It's a global conversation that people join from wherever they are. So I've been known to Joan on a train as a passenger in a car, you know, on the beach, pretty much, and so does everybody else, because they really prioritize that six o'clock third Thursday of the month and one of my podcast guests, so I'm going to mention two was Cath crock Professor Kath Kroc from Melbourne, who is such A regular on that kindness conversation that she joins every month. Now think about it, 6pm in the UK. So Cath is joining at 345, in the morning from Melbourne. She's crazy lady, and she is the founder of something called the hush Foundation, which is around using music in healthcare, in children's hospitals. So another kind of massive connection, and she is one of the most extraordinary people I know. But also, I did a podcast with the lovely Bob Kleber. And Dr Bob Kleber runs the kindness conversation, and he always sends out little emails saying who the next speaker is going to be. And it was you Maff. How did that happen?

Maff Potts24:21  

It happened because I think another person whose part of the kindness conversation crew is a doctor called Connie Junghans, and she's one of the women running the fantastic CHW programme, community health workers doing amazing work in in London and Westminster. And she is, funnily enough, bizarrely, an old friend, just an old friend back from days when we were young and carefree and silly. And we've stayed in touch over 30 years. And she's now doing that work, and I'm doing this work, and I think she spotted it and said, Hold on a minute, ma'am, we're kind of in the same zone here. And. So, I mean, she's, she's just one of the most infectiously enthusiastic and incredibly smart humans that I've known in my life. Huge, massive heart, and brings that with her analytical brain to healthcare. And so we've kind of, you know, been in touch, and then she said, "Oh, Bob, would love what you're doing". And that's how it happened.

Gill Phillips  25:19  

And they did, and that community were so taken by what you did, I'd wondered quite how it was going to work out, because I know you are quite Maverick, and you know, it's a very polite community, in a way, because it's the kindness community. And I was watching this space to see what happened. And honestly, it was brilliant. I mean, I was in a breakout room of six people, I think, and one or two of the people that perhaps I wouldn't normally, wouldn't normally see as infusing on something and perhaps a bit different, they were, they really were so well done. You know, it really was a great session.

Maff Potts25:51  

Oh, thank you very much. Yeah, it was a bit daunting to be on a call with, you know, so many eminent doctors from around the globe. I was slightly nervous about it, and and then, of course, it's always those times when the tech lets you down. I couldn't share my presentation. No one could hear my piano. So, but then, to be honest with you, we have a principle in camaraderie, which is it's all right to be a bit rubbish sometimes, yeah. And so that kind of gets me out of jail a lot. And so I just used that principle, and everyone was fine with it.

Gill Phillips  26:20  

You know? I think that's true. I think if you set yourself up to be the expert, then you set yourself up to fail, but if you set yourself up to fail, and then that's kind of just how it is, and then that's very human.

Maff Potts26:32  

Well, you know, it's interesting. I'm going to talk to you about that because so many people, I don't know if you're familiar with this Gill, but when you talk about concepts and ideas and innovation and all that kind of stuff. People can receive it in a very black and white way. So they just, they hear an idea and they go, Oh, you're that guy, right? Oh your mental health, oh your loneliness, oh, you're or, you know, so, for instance, we talk about creating no fixing environments, and people say, Oh, you're anti fixing. Well, we're not, of course, we're not. There are lots of things need fixing in this world. All we're saying is that not in here, you know, we need space alongside it where there's no fixing. And so I think the being a bit rubbish thing. Some people think we're setting out to create failure. We're not, of course, we're not. What we're saying is that it's just maybe good to have a good take on it when it happens, because it will happen. You know, I'm lucky enough to do speeches and full of wounds with like 1000 people, and I will say to them, put your hands up if you've ever messed up or had a tough time. And like, every hand goes up, of course it does everybody. So if every hand goes up, don't you think it might be a good idea to have a fairly good take on when it happens, instead of catastrophizing it and kind of dealing with it with shock, fear or even indignation. Instead, just go well, you know, it's like, what a surprise. Yeah, I failed again. You know, hey ho, yeah, yeah, no shock. And you know, it's really interesting. If you think of whose The most successful people, let's say, let's use a metric that I never use in my own life, but let's use money. And you know, economic success, the most successful place on planet Earth is California. It's Silicon Valley. Well, when I went there, I had a bursary to go to Google, EA, games, all those kind of people. And Microsoft, I discovered that they're all about failure, constant failure every day, because the word they use more than any is iteration. And the problem we have in England is we have a paralyzing fear of it, a fear of it like an an endemic cultural fear of failure. It's the ultimate taboo in England. You know, John Cleese said that an Englishman is not most afraid of death, he's most afraid of embarrassment, right? So, so therefore, what you have to do in England is you have to write a business plan for nine months. Nine months, and then you have to run a feasibility study for three years, and then you have to decide not to do it, you know, in California, they've already built it on Monday, it's in the field. On Tuesday, it's being repaired on Wednesday, you know. And you just crack on and do it, and that that approach to prototyping in real time in the field, what happens is you get fantastic data coming back at you immediately about whether it's any good. And as long as you're okay, hearing that it doesn't work and that it's rubbish and that it needs pressure, then you can accelerate the development so much quicker. So in a few weeks time, it is World beating. Meanwhile, the guy in England is only, is only a ninth of the way through his business plan. Do you know what I mean?

Gill Phillips  29:46  

Yeah, and polishing it. Lots of polishing. I had a, it reminds me I had a cartoon in my very early work when I was quite frustrated, and it was, Oh, my goodness. You know, what a great idea we love. Innovation, but I'm really sorry we can't do it because it hasn't been done before. Wow. And it just summed up.

Maff Potts30:12  

I thought that was a sound effect you were putting on to accentuate your fun there for a second Gill.

Gill Phillips  30:20  

Hey, no, it's my phone going off. Another fail, just a sec. So wow, what were you talking about? I'm really enjoying it.

Maff Potts30:29  

That's okay. We were talking about your fantastic story that people said on my cartoon we'd like to innovate. And they said, Yes, we'd love that too. But the problem is, it hasn't been done before. A bummer, isn't it? I mean, isn't that the best, hilarious, kind of ironic thing? It's really interesting, though, Gill, because a lot of people come to us and say how radical and Maverick and innovative we are, because first of all, people love using those words, and they don't necessarily know what it means, and then they want to give you an award, so they tell you that you're innovative and stuff. And then they're always so terribly crestfallen when I say, Oh, I'm sorry. I think you've heard the wrong thing about us, because we're not innovative at all. And then, and then I say, and actually, you shouldn't give us an award, because we make lots of mistakes too. We're not, we're not actually very good. And then they're so crestfallen, but, but I just, I'm really tired of the nonsense about innovation, you know, because actually, you know something like what we're doing, human connection is one of the least innovative things in the world. People have been knowing the importance of love and connection for millennia. All we're doing is giving a cool name and a badge, you know? I mean, yeah, and to be entirely honest, the the white, supposedly Western, civilized, you know, industrial, middle military complex that is our part of the world is just forgotten. What Matters indigenous people, quite often in countries that are deemed third world have known this for years, and they have a fantastic sense of community, partly through necessity, because they have to, you know, it's just all we're doing in cavadas is trying to remind people that that's what it's about,

Gill Phillips  32:13  

and storytelling and music, they all go back millennia, don't they

Maff Potts32:18  

sitting around the campfire? Yeah, yeah, I always say a great relish in saying this to people. So people who know me will know I bang on about this all the time. But I used to be so frustrated in Maslow, because when I was working in the East End of London with homeless people, running a center and running a big shelter event for the charity crisis, people used to throw Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs of me all the time to justify sort of soup kitchens or housing, they'd say, you know, shelter and warmth are the most important things to get right first, when it was patently obvious to me every single day that if people didn't have relationships or any form of self esteem or purpose, they never held on to their housing for more than a few days, they ended up back On the street. Why? Because on the street they had all their mates, and they had a plan every day to get up and where they were going to go, but I would resettle them in a flat 10 miles away from anywhere, and get them a shelf stuck in job in Asda and and they were suicidal within a few weeks because they'd lost all their friends and all their purpose. Yeah. So I used to get so annoyed about Maslow's hierarchy of needs and tell everyone it was upside down. Anyway. I then found out recently that actually that's not what Maslow wanted to say at all. And 20 years later, in the 1960s he came out and said what I really wanted to say was, it's all about community. And the reason was, he'd actually spent six weeks living with the Blackfoot tribe, a Native American tribe, and he had completely discovered that the way it functioned was that what you're saying telling stories, looking out for each other, having each other's back, sitting around the campfire, making collected decisions as a community, but it wasn't deemed rigorous academically to cite indigenous people in your research in the 1940s so so Maslow was sat on to not say anything about that. That's so interesting. Yeah, 20 years later, he said the answer is community. I mean, the answer has always been community, but I don't know. Is it because capitalism can't make enough money out of community that that

Gill Phillips  34:23  

story and not getting can't control it.

Maff Potts34:26  

Yes, it's too messy. I guess it's too grassroots.

Gill Phillips  34:29  

It's too wherever it goes. And I find that with whose shoes that some people perhaps don't like the fact that it is a can of worms. It sort of builds itself as a can of worms, really, because you're not checking the people think what you think. You're actually finding out what people want to say. And, you know, the scenarios are just a prompt, so if they go way off piece from what the original scenario was happy days, because that's what they want to talk about,

Maff Potts34:56  

I suppose, within health. And I keep bringing it back. That, because I think that's the context in which you are. It is, yeah,

Gill Phillips  35:05  

but it's life, it's health, it's education, it's community, it's

Maff Potts35:08  

well, health is life, of course. I mean, I'm not trying to silo the conversation at all. I'm just sort of saying that, what does health mean in in our country? Well, health means NHS and and to live in our country is to be a fan of the NHS, even if we're critical of it, I think we're there's a deep love, a deep love and respect for it and an appreciation for it. It's got us out of trouble. It's been with us all, the birth of all my children, and every time they've got sick, they've been there for me. So the NHS is very loyal, steadfast, and they're in times of crisis, but they don't. You find that, because it is such an extraordinary concept that takes 100 billion pounds a year to run, or whatever it is, there's therefore immense scrutiny over efficiency, and it's a shame, really, because I think it's woefully misunderstood efficiency. So people try and apply logic model type efficiency, I you know, identify the problem, issue, intervention. Problem is fixed. You know, tick, tick box, they apply a sort of spreadsheet approach to efficiency and a logic model approach to efficiency that doesn't fit life and doesn't fit humans. So if you want to be efficient in the health setting, it has to fit humans. Otherwise, it's a little bit it's not very efficient to have a machine which is built and constructed to fail at the job. And I do feel that we build a machine with cogs and wheels trying to understand the complexity of humanity when the only thing that can understand the complexity of humanity is another human. And so actually, humans are the vital resource in the NHS because they're messy, because they bring with them their own experiences and baggage and their empathy and their ability to connect, you know, and I think that is the tool that will get you the most efficient approach, because you'll talk to people, you'll hear from people, you'll respond to people where they are if you use a spreadsheet approach to you know, efficiency means cheaper, faster, all of that. And if those are your bottom line for efficiency, you won't actually do the job in hand, which is deal with humans. It won't work. Do you know what I mean? And it's always infuriated me. It's like with homelessness. I spent 20 years working in homelessness, where every single report said the reason people are homeless is because of relationship breakdown. Single biggest reason always, and yet, I was working in a system for 20 years that wanted to house people. I mean, like, you know, that's great, it's useful, but that was the tick. So there's a problem over here caused by a relationship breakdown. We'll solve it over here with bricks and mortar. It's a little bit like your house is flooded and you call an electrician. I mean, it's like, it doesn't fit. No. You know, homeless should be all about relationships, because that's the single biggest reason people are there. But it isn't. Health is, unfortunately, about it's about, often, the Wong determinants for health. It's not about humanity. In the human condition, what people really need in their life. Does that make sense?

Gill Phillips  38:20  

It really does. And I mean, I mean, I'm thinking one of the most amazing people I know, and I've done a podcast with recently, but she's a friend, and I'm hopefully working with her quite a lot closer next year, which is brilliant. Dr, goody Singh, and she's just done an amazing, really amazing series of three episodes on BBC Radio, four, three ages of child. Brilliant. It is brilliant because she's a she's a doctor, and she's also a journalist and a researcher, and, most importantly, a really good listener and connector. So she's taken herself around the country talking to different people and how she's got it to be so coherent in 345 minute episodes, and the BBC have just repeated it, so it's obviously popular. Oh, great. But really getting to the root of like, the social determinants of health and as a doctor, so just like you're saying with housing, isn't the answer, I suppose this is perhaps the other side of the coin that if she's got a child, comes to her whose hungry and has got asthma, but actually she knows that they're living in poor housing or not good enough money for breakfast and so on. So I don't know. I suppose what my fascination is really with whose shoes is all these amazing people. I have got the most incredible network, and this podcast series, really, the whole wild card idea was to try and, well, let's hear from that person. Let's hear from this person. And you end up with this mosaic of people doing absolutely extraordinary things. Yeah, and very much in line with the same goals. You know, human beings. And helping them, rather than siloed. But yes, it's been a scattergun approach, really, in terms of, well, what difference can I make through that? You know?

Maff Potts40:10  

Yeah, I mean just realizing that the person in front of them, it's not about medicalizing the problem with a particular set of pills to fit a narrow diagnosis Exactly. She she's actually saying, Hold on a minute. This person's life is making them ill. Yes, and that life can consist of so many different variables and elements. I mean, I suppose there might be doctors listening to this thinking, well, how on earth can it be my job to sort out their whole life? Well, it isn't, but it should be the system and society's role in making it possible to connect all the pieces of that mosaic up. At the moment, what we have is a broken mosaic where someone over here is a bit of Mosaic doing health, completely unconnected with a broken bit of Mosaic over here doing their housing. Do you know what I mean? An education, and, yeah, an education and all of that. Bromley by bow center in the East End. I don't know if you know it, but

Gill Phillips  41:03  

I've been there. Have I went for a visit with my Darzi fellow friends? Oh, fantastic. Well, it was a bit like an apprentice visit. I was with all these young people and witnessing whether they were going to catch the right train to get there. It was quite funny, but that's an aside. I love the visit to Bromley by boat. It was one of the kind of showcase places that they would visit.

Maff Potts41:24  

Well, it's a showcase place, full stop for everything. And I'm what they call a friend of probably by bow in that I've been giving money to them every month for years, because I just think this is an enlightened way of meeting the challenge you are putting out to us. There. Gill about this mosaic, because you arrive and there's a reception for your housing and there's a reception for your health, and they're both right there, because the two are linked. And then, oh, by the way, there's a cafe where you can do some healthy eating. Oh, and if you're a bit bored, there's an activity in the garden you can get involved in Exactly, yeah. And, and a place like that is about all the aspects of your life, rather than just your physical health. I mean, if you, if you asked a GP, are you here to sort physical health or mental health? I mean, these days, they might say, actually both. But I think for for most of the last 100 years, doctors were about physical health. Were they not absolutely, yeah, not about, you know, helping people through life,

Gill Phillips  42:21  

my connection, like the way I ended up going to Bromley by bow, was through my work with the Darzi fellows, and as part of my connection with Professor Becky Malby, in particular, she invited me as part of the podcast series to do a little mini series around universal health care. And these were exactly the sort of issues that we talked about, you know, talking to a GP up in Leeds whose taking his health care out to rugby matches community, basically, to where the people are, yeah, and it gave me the opportunity to include on the podcast a really good friend of mine. He's called Dr Tom holiday, who I've met through the Darzi work, and he's a consultant pediatrician in London, and one of his examples was bringing together as a doctor, mental and physical health, brilliant. And that as a consultant pediatrician, he could be just saying, Well, I've run all my tests. There's nothing wrong. Whereas, clearly, if the child and the parents are reporting there's something wrong, there is something wrong. So who can we bring in as a kind of team to get to the bottom of it, rather than just refer you on from pillar to post? So that's the healthcare side, the NHS side, and hopefully the best people really coming together with joint appointments and so on. And then the community side, that if you can solve a lot of the problems, but they're not even coming to the healthcare system, it's fascinating.

Maff Potts43:50  

I totally agree with that last point, very, very strongly, that we could do an awful lot to help the pressure on, you know, acute services by, you know, creating more more places. I mean, I'm obviously going to say public living rooms, but more just general places that, you know, that it could be the local library, places that kind of bring people together to to talk and listen and connect, because a lot of the time chatting to someone either provides the solution you need or something that's worked for them, or I'm thinking of all the GPs who said to me that so many of their clients I've got, I've got a friend who works in GP practice in the south of Leicester, and he's he said that a huge proportion of his clients are just lonely with a rubbish life. And they announced this in the last minute of a 10 minute consultation as they're going out the door. It's actually I didn't come to see you about my knee or my back. It's that I'm lonely and I'm really sad and things like crap, you know, now, if they could sit in a public living room all day, have a cup of tea and talk about this with someone, they might not take up 10 minutes of consultation time, but the doctor can't really do very much anyway. If we had more community, I'm absolutely convinced. People wouldn't go to a healthcare professional to solve all their problems. I mean, you know, that is also the downside of the NHS. And I say this with hesitation because I'm a massive fan, but we have put it on such a pedestal to solve all our problems, and therefore people still, still very much trust medical professions more than they trust other professions which have lost a lot of trust over the years. So therefore, if I have a problem in my life, no matter what it is, I'm likely to call a healthcare professional, right? They'll fix it, as opposed to saying, well, actually, they're never going to be the person. You could probably fix it yourself with enough agency and confidence, with enough friendship, with enough a network of people around you, and then you never have to touch the sides of that service.

Gill Phillips  45:46  

Oh, boy, we're covering such a lot of ground.

Gill Phillips  45:55  

So how on earth are we going to finish this? Oh, Ma, if I could talk to you all day, but I think we've captured, it seems to me, the why of what we're doing, rather than the detail of the what. And that's, that's what's important. What do you think

Maff Potts46:12  

I would add this? I would say that the how is the most important. So it never gets much attention the how. And I think certainly in health, as I've already said, if we change the how we could we could get ourselves out of a lot of trouble. And that's how we speak to people, how we invite people to be involved, how we deliver our services, how we involve people. You know, I went for a scan recently, and the person doing the scan walked in the room, scanned me, and left without saying a word to me, so I didn't actually know it was over. Oh my goodness, and I was still there when the next patient came in, and the clinician came in and looked at me like, why are you still here? And I said, Well, you didn't speak to me, so I thought I had to stay. You didn't say thank you, goodbye or anything. So I ended up feeling like kind of some deeply unimportant chopped liver, and it was not a great experience. And you know, the how we deliver with people? People think, well, that's not going to lead to efficiency. You know, I'm sure it's much more efficient to come in, do the scan and leave without talking to the patient, certainly much more efficient from a time perspective. The thing is, I don't think you're going to find out as much, and people aren't going to, you know, recover from another illness quite as well. You know, I ran services where most people wouldn't turn up because the way we were speaking, people didn't want to come in. So if you actually want people to engage, turn up and kind of take part and use their agency and help you out, really think about how you speak with them and the setting, you know, the decor, the vibe, and you know that that doesn't sound very hard hitting from a health perspective, but the vibe will get people through your door and will get them better.

Gill Phillips  47:54  

Yeah, that's that's awful not to speak to, yeah. And a lot of the work that we do is around language and patient experience. In the NHS sort of context, we've got a massive campaign called Matt x, which has been running for 11 years now, which is maternity experience and language communication are just key to everything, really aren't then, how rude. How rude.

Maff Potts48:19  

So the best example of this, really, was in a hospital where we put a chalkboard outside our public living room and it said, Put your feet up, look out for each other, right? That was it. And we had a little infrared beam on the door to count how many people came in. And we had 1000 a week coming in. Wow, that's a lot. Yeah, it is a lot. But the NHS Trust then rubbed out the chalk, and in one week, they wrote, it's time to talk hashtag Mental Health Awareness Week. And then that week, instead of 1000 that week, 40 came through the door. So that tells you that the importance of language was kind of important, because a lot of people looked at that and thought, Well, I'm, you know, mental health. I don't have a mental health problem, even if they did, or maybe they thought, if I go in there, someone's going to be in my face asking me a lot of intrusive questions. Or it just put people off, you know, so how we speak to people kind of makes them want to come in or not. You know,

Gill Phillips  49:13  

that is a massive goosebump moment that is just such a brilliant example 1000 to 40. And on one of my most recent podcasts, I spoke to someone called Amelia Wilcockson, and we deliberately put the podcast out very tongue in cheek for World Diabetes Day. And this is a young woman living with type one diabetes, and you is a bit like you were saying earlier about awards. You know, you can sort of play the system, not because you want the award or because you want the Awareness Day, but because sometimes that's the way of getting your message out there. And we talk on the podcast about what we think about awareness days and so on. So it's a whole, whole other topic, and most of these things have got good, not so good aspects, haven't they? But I think. I'm gonna hang on to that story that you're 1000 people just coming for a chat and 40 people coming with hashtag mental awareness day.

Maff Potts50:09  

Yeah, yep. And I would just encourage anyone listening to this who might work in the realm of healthcare to realize that despite all your brilliant and good intentions, you could be putting a lot of people off because you haven't just gone that extra mile to think, how is this being received? And I speak as someone who's made that mistake so many, many times, we use a lot of exclusionary language. Even people who are real heroes of mine, they use language that make people just go, No, thanks. I'm good, you know? So we should really think about how we I'm fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do we engage people who they don't want that?

Gill Phillips  50:43  

Thanks. We've had a perinatal mental health pair of poems called I'm fine, and one was written by the woman with very serious perinatal mental health problems, and like on the other side of the door was her actual clinician, and how it felt for both of them, hearing this I'm fine, and knowing that it was the absolute opposite of I'm fine, and being able to unpick and create that trust to actually have a proper conversation. Yeah, so Maff. How do people, if people are inspired by this and want to set up a public living room, what do they do?

Unknown Speaker  51:20  

They go up the stairs, and then they come down the stairs.

Maff Potts51:27  

Sorry, I just wanted to play my piano again. They can go to camarados.org, so that's C, A, M, E, R, A, D, O, s.org, and they can find out all about us, and then they can contact us through that, through the website, saying they're interested. And what happens next is we connect them with someone who already runs a public living room. We've got these wonderful people in the community who do phone calls for us, and so it's very movement led, very people led. My team doesn't do the calls anymore. So they'll hear from someone who actually runs one. You'll have a cup of tea and a piece of cake over zoom for half an hour. And if at the end of that, you go, yeah, you know what? Actually, I think this is for me. Then we send you a box, and it's this beautiful box full of lots of goodies, and it's really a big piece of permission giving, but it's a lovely thing to receive, and it's got lots of lovely hand wrapped items and handwritten notes, and it kind of gives you a hand getting started, and then off you go. I would suggest that people think of it as something fun and lightweight, because if it's heavy and serious, people won't come in and sit down. So the biggest piece of advice I give to people is make sure it's a little bit rubbish, because then people come in and they relax, because no, they're not perfect. So think about where in the community you want to do you want to do it, and maybe just do it once for a couple of hours on a Saturday morning, see how it goes. And then, if it's fun, hey, do it next week or next month. You know, we have no requirement on when you do it, where you do it, how you do it, what you call it. Our only requirement is that to be a camera artist, probably everything, we kind of got to follow these six principles, which you can find on our website. And if you can get down with those, particularly the no fixing one, which most people struggle with, then, then, hey, brilliant, crack on, and you're in the movement.

Gill Phillips  53:10  

And I seem to remember one of them was, have fun. So shall we finish with a Christmas something? What can we finish with?

Maff Potts53:17  

Okay, you put me on the spot. Now, I think I've used all my Christmas songs. What? Is

Gill Phillips  53:26  

that White Christmas or something like that? That's White Christmas. So we're dreaming of a white Christmas.

Unknown Speaker  53:31  

Yes. Thank you so much for having me.

Gill Phillips  53:34  

Gill, Thank you, ma'am. It's been brilliant. And I invite people, encourage people to set up a public living room. Just do it. JFDI, thank you.

Unknown Speaker  53:43  

JFDI, that's the one. Cheers.

Gill Phillips  53:49  

Bye. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, it would be fantastic if you would leave a review and a rating, as well as recommending the wild card, who shoes podcast series to anyone who you think might find it interesting, and please subscribe that way you get to hear when new episodes are available. I have lots more wonderful podcast guests in the pipeline, and don't forget to explore and share previous episodes so many conversations with amazing people who are courageously sharing their stories and experiences across a very wide range of topics. I tweet as whose shoes. Thank you for being on this journey with me, and let's hope that together we can make a difference. See you next time you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai