Training to Teach: In Conversation with Annie Gouldsworthy

In this episode, we catch up with Annie Gouldsworthy, Director of ITT at The King Edward's Consortium in Birmingham, to have an engaging and informative conversation about intitial teacher training in the UK.

Annie’s teaching career began in 1994, following a few years post-university in various roles. Entering the teaching profession, she gained experience via curricular, pastoral and leadership routes and working in mixed, single-sex, state, selective and alternative provision contexts. A feature of her work in schools throughout the years has always been training and mentorship of trainee teachers and early career teachers. A move out of school-based teaching beckoned and
Annie stepped into the position of Director of ITT at KEC in 2022, to lead school-centred ITT for the King Edward VI Academy Trust Birmingham. Annie is a Fellow of the Chartered College of Teaching and a contributor to national organisations and events.

The King Edward’s Consortium (‘KEC’) is a partnership of 23 schools throughout Birmingham and the surrounding area, providing SCITT (fee-paying) PGDE + QTS and QTS-only programmes in a wide range of secondary subjects. Trainees gain hands-on experience in their schools from the very first day of their training, which includes experiences in primary schools and special schools. KEC has been training teachers in Birmingham since 2004 and as a smaller provider it is able to offer a bespoke programme of centre-based learning at the training centre in Kings Heath, alongside four full days in school each week under the direct supervision of expert mentors.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

So, welcome everybody to today's episode of the Independent Teacher Podcast. And I'm really pleased to be joined by Annie Goldsworthy. Annie, welcome to today's show. Thank you so much. It's lovely to be here. Now, we are going to be talking about all things teacher training today. So, could you stop by just telling our listeners about your current role?

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Yeah, um, certainly. So, Susan, as you'll know, um I've had a varied and very rewarding career in education spanning more than 30 years and involving work in a huge variety of educational contexts. I've worked as a classroom teacher, including special education and pupil referral units, and I fulfilled curricular and pastoral roles and been a subject leader in diverse and different schools, and I've worked in school leadership and I've loved it all. So now I am director of initial teacher training at the King Edwards Consortium in Birmingham. We're a skit, that's school-centred uh initial teacher training, and we are part of the King Edward VI Academy Trust Birmingham, working with all of the schools of King Edward VI in Birmingham along with many others. People are often surprised at the diversity of the schools that I work with. I'd say that in comparison to what I've done previously, this particular role stands apart in that it affords a very comprehensive overview of processes and practices in so many different schools. It's a role that entails a great deal of responsibility. And as a curious person, I really enjoy it. And I like being in a position of trust where people respect my judgment. So, of course, I do have to make sure that those judgments are right. I love all aspects of my work, especially the ones that see me out and about in all of the different schools around the area. That's my favourite part of the whole thing, and that's something that I do frequently and throughout the training year. The role as director of ITT also involves a lot of collaborative work with other ITT providers. And although we are nominally in competition with each other, I'm pleased to say that we cooperate on many fronts, which makes perfect sense. And I also work with various national educational organisations. So when we get down to the nitty-gritty of it, Susan, I've been I'm involved in every aspect of recruitment and training here. That's those initial teacher trainees from start to finish. It is an all-encompassing role. So I'd say that, yeah, sometimes it can be quite draining because I find myself offering a lot of moral support as well as pedagogical support and objectivity. So basically, I set standards and then I hold other people to those standards. Uh, and I'd say that those aspects make it quite a unique role. Um, I always smile because my my parents are no longer with us, but I know for a fact that um they would be amused now to know that I'm more often than not seen as the person with all of the solutions. And in some senses, there's a there's a lot of parenting involved in this role too. I know that you will have had contact with initial teacher trainees while you were um yourself in education too. So while it doesn't make my role too different to any school-based mentor, I'm also extending that support all day, every day, not only to trainees, but also to their mentors across our schools. So, yeah, it's a role with significant responsibility and it requires a lot of clarity and I hope professionalism. Um, growing up uh and as a little girl, I often wondered what it would be like to be the boss. It's great, but of course, uh because I fulfil all of these roles and oversee everything, it also means that it's all my fault. Um, I can live with that. I think I'd recommend this role to anyone who loves teaching, to anyone who is interested in evidence-based research and evidence-informed practice, and anyone who likes people, really.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Do you actually miss being in the classroom or being in a school-based role rather than the one that you're doing there that you described? That's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Uh, and I guess my answer would have to be yes, because I get to be in the classroom as a teaching classroom practitioner much less than I would like to these days, very rarely. But I am able to counterbalance that with the fact that I do have a teaching role here. You know, we teach people how to teach. So, of course, there is a teaching role involved in that. It's not the same because these are um very different pupils. These are adults, these can be career changers, but I really do still involve that aspect of teaching because we have a whole load of pedagogy, the science of learning uh to deliver here. And I have a really strong role. Uh, well, I have the role of designing the curriculum and also delivering quite a lot of it, as well as delivering and then marking and moderating all of the master's level work that goes on beside that. So intellectually stimulating, yes, but if I'm perfectly honest with you, yeah, I do miss that interaction in my own classroom that is now rarely afforded to me. But it's of a great deal of comfort that I do find myself in school a lot, talking with young people and um working alongside the trainees in their classrooms.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Okay, so what I'd like to do now is just discuss with you some of the routes of teacher training in 2026 because I know it's an ever-changing area. Have there been any significant changes since you joined the consortium?

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yes, absolutely. So we provide initial teacher training for graduates. Uh, we offer fee paying and salaried routes, uh, but of course, there are other routes into teaching. And there, you're quite right, there have been some recent developments in what is now on offer. And that, by and large, is an effort to ensure that there are appropriate routes to people who may be at a stage in their lives where they frankly can't afford to go back to university or a university type environment for a year, they may need to accommodate that in different ways to fit in with the directions that their own lives have taken. So there are, for example, uh assessment-only routes, um, and that's where you're training on the job with very minimal support from a mentor in the school, and that can suit people with very considerable um experience as unqualified teachers in schools. You'll find a lot of those. There are also now apprenticeship routes, uh, they come in the form of postgraduate and undergraduate um routes. The postgraduate is the most recent one to be added to the arsenal, and so that's slightly experimental at the moment, but again, those that can appeal to people who have teaching experience already, albeit in an unqualified um paid as an unqualified teacher. So those are gaining in popularity, and I think for people who may have had a working life and now had a family and are looking to qualify as a teacher, they can offer an ideal route into teaching. And then, of course, there are the more traditional routes, uh the postgraduates like uh postgraduate routes like ours. I'll give a quick mention to undergraduate, where you will study for three or maybe even four years at university as an undergraduate and emerge with something like a beard, for example. But our postgraduate route is for people who have a relevant degree, so that's a degree in the subject that they want to train to teach in, or something that's closely related. Um, and they may approach us in already as a graduate wanting to train to teach. We speak to a lot of people also who are about to graduate from their undergraduate studies. So, like any tertiary provider, a fee is charged, and most people tend to cover their own fees via a tuition fee loan. Um, every now and then we also have a salaried trainee, and that's quite an unusual situation for us. So, what they're doing is um training to teach while being paid as an unqualified teacher in just a short period of time, and that's quite a specialist, uh a specialist route. More generally, in times of change, since taking on the role at the consortium, ITT as an animal has undergone really quite radical change in the re-accreditation process. That was between 2022 and 2023, when absolutely every ITT provider had to reapply in order to continue delivering their programs. That was quite a brutal process, one that I walked right into and had just a few weeks to get our uh application in. Uh, not the most stress-free three weeks of life, I have to say. Uh, but as I say, quite a quite a brutal process. And uh the outcome of that was that almost a third of all ITT providers no longer um continue to deliver, they were excluded by by that process. Um, and of course, we've got a new offstead inspection framework now, which we are um now beginning to know and love. Um and I'm gonna cop that quite soon as well. Can't wait, as I'm sure you can imagine. It's a very complex uh framework for inspection, but uh I do think it is a good framework for inspection, which will make sure that trainees are getting a level playing field when it comes to entitlement and high-quality ITT. Good.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Um, how attractive do you think teaching actually is, either to career changers or to postgraduates? How attractive is it now?

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Well, of course, I'm more than a little biased uh on this one, Susan. I'd say, of course, that teaching um as a career is a great option, which provides someone with variety, intellectual stimulation, um, the opportunity to share your love for your subject, the chance to build and develop uh generations to come. And I'm sure that everyone will be able to remember a great teacher from their own education, uh, no doubt a few terrible ones too. I know that I certainly can. Um, but I think there are a couple of fundamental secrets to enjoying uh a choice of teaching as a career. Firstly, I'd say that you need to like spending time around children and young people. Um, I know that sounds really obvious, but I've been in this game for long enough now to have met too many people who clearly went into this with their eyes closed. Um, children and young people are absolutely brilliant. They are clever, curious, hilarious, um, also really annoying and sometimes just really hard work. Um, I think, secondly, humility, resilience, and humour are also key characteristics that someone must either already have in spades or be prepared to uh develop very quickly. Humility, because as a teacher, you are, of course, the adult in the classroom, and you'll very often have to be seen to lose face. Um, you will need to accept, uh, take on board and act quickly on advice and guidance from other adults, especially as you're training. Um, that's not always easy. Resilience is essential. Um, you'd be mistaken if you believed that teachers work from 8:30 in the morning until 3.30 in the afternoon. That's simply not true. The teaching bit during the day, of course, is the easy bit, um, but there are many more hours to be put in when it comes to prep and planning, marking, report writing, trips, parents' evenings, and all of the extracurricular activities that, of course, you'll get involved in when you love your subject. So I think with all of that in mind, I'd say that teaching as a career must remain honest about its rigour if it is to address this problem that we've got with retention and personal satisfaction. Um, for the reasons I've outlined, I think it's understandable that graduates, for them, it may not stack up very favourably beside options that initially appear more attractive when it comes to remuneration, for example. I'd say it's a little different for career changers who come to teaching with perhaps more life experience, and maybe you could say a more realistic take on what working life will entail. But it's not an easy journey for either group, and uh we recruit from both sources, and our trainees do brilliantly. I would say that teaching is relatively well paid, but the profession offers many rewards other than financial ones. Um I'd say that the public perception of the teacher role has evolved considerably since even I came into this particular role as director of ITT. And I'd say that public perception has evolved alongside a real shift in what people are generally prepared to tolerate in terms of working hours, for example. Um, a significant increase in the incidence of special educational needs and disabilities. Again, a significant increase in uh, or or what should I say, really, an exponential growth in the incidence of the social, emotional, and mental health difficulties experienced by our pupils in our schools means that the profession has faced increasing challenge. And I would also say, I think, that uh irrespective of the background that they come to us from, um we find that all trainees um all struggle a bit to begin with. And and the problem that we have is this if you are lucky enough to have had a great teacher who made you feel seen, made you feel heard, um, made you feel valued, and made you enthused about your subject, you will never have known how hard they will have worked to make it look that easy. And that's one of the things that we spend a lot of time unpicking.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

And in terms of uh the different types of schools that uh trainees can do placements in at the consortium, uh, the majority will be going into the maintain sector, but you also offer opportunities for them to have placements in independent schools as well. Um do trainees have a preference?

SPEAKER_01 16:20

You're absolutely right. We do offer main and second placements with this uh within the state and the independent sectors. Our curriculum here also um provides our trainees with experiences in primary schools and special schools. I think it's wise to get an overview of the most wide possible picture of the context of education. And our trainees can now also undertake a second placement in a special school. That's something that we've done in earnest for the very first time this year, and it's worked brilliantly. And do you know, Susan, we find sometimes that a trainee may come to us with a very distinct preconception of what type of school they want to train in or what kind of school they would like to eventually work in, and that may be a state school, and that may be a selective state grammar school or a fee-paying independent school, etc. Now I've often been known to change people's minds and to make them question their wisdom, but when it comes to the state versus uh, you know, the maintain the state versus the independent sector for placements for teacher training, I can tell you without a word of a lie that there is no difference in the teacher training experience to be drawn between those two contexts. And that's because I have identical expectations of planning, delivery in the classroom, um, maintenance of discipline and professional conduct. People are often surprised by this. Uh, it also enables us in our teacher training to offer a real contrast between the main and second placement uh in terms of addressing some preconceptions that people may come up to us with. So, yes, while we work with 23 very diverse uh excellent school contexts, none of them is better or worse than the other. They're simply really different.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah, that sounds brilliant. Um, I just wondered what what are schools, the schools that you work with, trying to do to retain new teachers to the profession? Another great question.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Um, well, of course, I'm in the business of recruitment, uh, but my worry all along has been far more for retention rather than recruitment. It's all very well getting these people into teacher training, but you want them to stay in teaching. And you know it's a cause of eternal frustration for me. The way that the the figures that are banded about when it comes to people leaving the profession always include a very significant group of people who never intended to stay in the profession for that long anyway. And that's um routes such as Teach First, which by its very name infers that you go into teaching, you do fantastic work, and then you'll move your career onwards to maybe civil service or uh private industry, wherever that might be. That is a very valid route into teaching, but it always frustrates me that those figures get lumped in to people leaving the profession, and it's a natural consequence of something that's set up in that particular way that most people would be leaving after three to four years. And I think it does it does rather affect the figures adversely. Um, but I know that schools work incredibly hard to retain their staff. Um, and to name but one problem: schools have now been fighting through decades of successive governments who have progressively stripped away budgets and therefore time to cope with the mentorship demands of introducing uh and inducting staff new to the profession. The old nomenclature for that would have been NQTs, we now call them ECTs, early career teachers. And the mentorship demands that are placed on schools for ECTs as well as trainee teachers are now huge and unsustainable for many schools, I have to say. Here at King Edwards Consortium, we're really lucky to work with a dedicated group of head teachers and mentors in schools who support ITT and who really commit to supporting their mentors in turn. I do not take that for granted. Does that answer the question?

SPEAKER_00 20:48

It it it does. What I do want to touch about in terms of the retaining is the workload for teachers to the profession. I can just remember looking at some of my friends who, for them, it did seem a nine to five job who weren't in teaching. And then for me, it was like, well, actually, no, I can't go out because I've got to prepare my lessons, I've got to do the marking. Um, you do so much more work outside of the classroom. So have you seen that as being an issue? So workload, um, also looking at flexible working. It's very difficult to be able to make it as attractive as some other professions, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 21:27

You're absolutely right, yeah. I mean, I don't think we would get away with the or oh gosh, I'm working from home today, or uh, you know, that that that that simply doesn't work. It's one of the most personal, as in person-to-person professions that that um that you can can get. And workload, without a doubt, um, is is an issue. I do know that schools and their leadership teams all over the country are working, are continuing to work so hard at being able to, wherever possible, provide that flexibility. To provide um part-time hours where wherever that's possible. And I think you know, there's been a lot written in recent months and years about that huge gap that's emerging between the needs of um working mums in the profession and what the profession is able to offer. So we we all need to work harder at that, I think, in schools. Um I think, you know, one of the things, you know, perhaps we'll go on to talk about it, but one of one of the things that has the capacity to begin reducing workload is generative AI. Uh, you know, this is something that we're beginning to think a lot more about at my stage in in the the teaching process now. Um, but schools are trying to do that, yeah. You know, everything from the nitty-gritty, like the the writing of reports, for example, it's changed um beyond measure from when I first came into teaching a long time ago now. Um, but but you're right, there is this mentality, isn't there? Gosh, oh you know, can I come out? No, not on a school night, because we're either so exhausted by giving so much of ourselves during the day and then cracking in a marking a pile of books at the end of that as well. We do need to try and preserve um some of our weekend for ourselves, for example. And yes, you know, there's the perennial, oh, not another holiday. And of course, we're all thinking, you know, yeah, if if you only knew, you would understand that we need every minute of that. Otherwise, we're not getting back into that classroom. Certainly, as a as a trainer of initial teacher trainees, we spend a lot of time talking about workloads, about having realistic expectations, about looking after yourself. Because at the end of the day, you and I both know that students do not want perfect teachers, they want happy teachers. Um, I think we all remember someone, you know, one of our own teachers perhaps who was obviously a bit bitter. Now we reflect on it, overworked. Um, so so we do try and avoid all of that, and we end up buying in an increasing amount of external expertise and adding our own layers of expertise too, to how to keep the workload manageable, how to balance it, and when to say enough is enough. Um, I think it's easy generally uh in teaching. We do rather focus, don't we, on even better uh if, you know, not the what went well. So people are always striving for for perfection, and I always recommend against that. I can rarely think of a case where good enough has not been good enough because I'll often find myself explaining to an exhausted trainee that um those pupils are not bothered about the border you've used on that slide, trust me. Or, you know, that they're not bothered about you know how many stickers they've got on that page. They they just want succinct they want you on side, they want you to be happy, they want to know how much you love your subject. But workload, I think, is a big bugbear, something we've not cracked yet. And I think coupled with um, you know, I'll go back to what I mentioned earlier about this exponential growth in um social, emotional, and mental health um difficulties that people everywhere of all ages are facing. It's quite a heady mixture to work your way through. But you know, that they make it, our trainees make it. It's not easy. Um, but yeah, it it's a difficult one. I cannot pretend I have all the answers on that. I know what we do works, but I know every year we have to change it in the light of um what our trainees are showing us and teaching us.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

I think for me, I I was one of those people who, you know, I worked really, really, really hard. I was absolutely exhausted. I needed those holidays, but it wasn't until I finished teaching that I realised what I'd how much I'd actually given up. Um and do you know I hadn't hadn't actually been to a concert. I'd been to school concerts and school and I've been to plays and things, but I hadn't been to a pop concert ever since I'd I'd been a teacher. So from 1987 until just recently, now I'm going all the time, I've never been to a concert because I never felt able to go out on an evening. Most of the concerts are in an evening. And I would say to my younger self, just like just get things into perspective. Sometimes it's just worth it um just to be tired for one day afterwards, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Yeah, well, as they say, don't they? All work and no play. I'm I'm so pleased to hear that you are again embracing your little rock chick season. That that's that that is great to know. But you make really you make a really valid point. Uh, and I try to lead by example here and say, you know, um a little bit about what I've done and what and why I chose to do it, because I think we need to be kind to ourselves sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Now you mentioned uh generative AI there. Um what what are you doing within the consortium to um prepare trainees for the increasing role of AI in education?

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Okay, well, uh it it's a big issue, and I think my my intuitive response is not enough, because I don't think right now we can ever do enough because it's moving so quickly. I, for one, are still waiting for an AI mirror uh in my bathroom, which would be tremendously helpful. But what I would say in response to your question is that I think we are approaching this very consciously and very deliberately, and again, this is one of those areas where we've had to buy in quite a lot of external expertise because I am no expert. This is a real evolving aspect for us, as it is with every profession. Uh, we're constantly adjusting our program in order to provide the best introduction and practice in um to the huge potential of generative AI to reduce teacher workload. I'd say that it's easy when change comes upon us, it's easy to be a bit scared and defensive, and we're usually a bit afraid of what is new, um, and we don't like change, do we? So I think it it is an enormous tool for potential good, but I'd say what we also have to do is to be very careful to, in equal measure, introduce our trainees and of course, um, by consequence, their own pupils, to the potential capacity of AI to limit trainees and their students' intellectual growth and to provide false proxies for achievement and attainment. But do you know when it comes to those hours and hours of generating things like a worksheet or this, that, and the other for use in the classroom on a more generic basis, I know already that AI has a huge potential to reduce that, to summarize things where appropriate. But I think we need to be very careful not to buy to bypass the process of learning, uh, that idea of cognition that we spend so much time talking about in teacher training. We can't forget about that because there is no AI substitute for that. Um, so whereas part of me is wary, I embrace it and I understand completely that this is the way forward. What things will look like in 20 years' time, I have absolutely no idea. Um, fortunately, by then, if my pension keeps amassing, I'll not still be doing this by then. But uh yeah, I have high hopes for it. Um healthily um aware of its potential pitfalls, is what I would say.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

I hope that's not too cagey. No, no, not not at all. Right, so um moving on, we've got a couple of more questions. This is the question where you get to be creative. I mean, if you could change one thing about the teaching profession, only one, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Oh uh I think I would alight on something which do you know it almost sits outside of the teaching profession, but it is part of what I've spoken about earlier on. In short, I think I would like to find a way of informing and altering public perception of the profession. I just wish that people would reflect on the nobility and the value of the work that teachers do alongside their enormous pastoral role. I do think that we are what you might call a soft target. And of course, the media these days only seems to shout about what goes wrong rather than celebrating and singing about all of the things that are achieved and the difference that just one great uh teacher can make to um to a young life.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Yeah, I agree. And you know, you don't this is what I'd say to your trainees. Sometimes you just don't know the impact that you're having on young people until many, many years later. Uh and I I still get, and I know friends of mine, we still get contacted by former students from maybe 20 or 30 years ago, and they say to you, you know, you made a real difference to me. So yeah, I I agree. It's a it's a very important profession, and we can be scapegoated sometimes in the media.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Absolutely. And do you know those moments where you catch up with those students who you had such a long time ago, they're really precious, aren't they? Unfortunately, most of mine seem to happen when I'm at the supermarket with a really dodgy looking trolley. Um thinking, my gosh, you know, how how far she has fallen, things must be really fast. You know, just that opportunity that you know they remember and you'll hear it, Dan Miss. Yeah, and you're thinking, I don't know about you, but I always remember the the the surname before I remember the first name, and and and we get there and then just talking about old times, and you're right, you know, do you remember that trip you took us on? And you you'll never realise what a difference you made, and I'm doing this now, and these are my children. And um I you know that there are there aren't many other jobs like that, you know, possibly the medical side of things and and midwives and that, but we do put our stamp on those young lives, and I think you know, maybe that's another aspect to change that we should believe in ourselves a bit more, yeah. Give ourselves a bit more credit for the huge effect that that we can have.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Yeah. So Annie, we're coming to the end of our uh our conversation. If we've got any listeners who are considering uh a career in teaching, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Oh gosh, um, I would say that they should give it very careful consideration. Um, I would say they should get out and find out more about the programs of study in the subject area that they would be interested in training to teach, and even better, get out into a school and sit down with teachers and students to find out what it's really like. Um, I would suggest that someone takes a look at the gov.uk website or does a search simply on get into teaching, and that will bring up useful links and information. If they're thinking of applying to train uh to teach on a programme that begins this September, they shouldn't be waiting too long to do that. Um, applying to train to teach um can only be done via one um route, and that's via the very imaginatively named Apply website. And I think they need to be real about this. Um, that doesn't mean watch a few episodes of Waterloo Road uh or Grange Hill, because you and I both know that doesn't reflect the reality. But Susan, I'm always amazed by the number of people who come to meet me to discuss a career in teaching, and who are obviously thinking, how hard can this be? All I have to do is stand at the front and tell them what to do. And you know, there is so much more to it than that, and it is so much more than that. It's amazing. So uh something you should go into with your eyes open. But if you love your subject and you like young people, absolutely uh give it serious thought.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Annie, perfect way to end. Uh, can I just say it's been a pleasure catching up with you and having a chat today all about things related to teacher training? It's been brilliant and really inspirational. So thank you for joining us on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

Thank you, too. It's lovely to speak with you, Susan. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

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