Covid-19 devastated the lives of many migrant workers from Nepal

The Covid-19 pandemic in 2020 and 21 hit Nepali migrant workers hard. Thousands working in India were blocked from crossing the border into Nepal. Others overseas were laid off and confined to living quarters with little or no food, no money, and no tickets home.
 
We recorded this episode in the midst of that dark period. While it describes the terrible conditions and uncertainty affecting migrants, it is at the same time a good primer on some of the core issues around migration and Nepal. With my guests Bijaya Rai Shrestha of the NGO AMKAS and academic Ramesh Sunam we touched on topics including:

• the ban on women migrating to work in Persian Gulf countries
• the impact of caste on decisions to migrate
• the ‘invisibility’ of Nepalis who migrate to work in India and
• the need for stronger policies from Nepal’s governments.

Unfortunately it seems like some of the optimism you’ll hear in this episode was unrealistic —little seems to have improved in the migration file in the past five years.

Resources

AMKAS

Ramesh Sunam

Transcript

[00:00:00] We are supporting women migrant workers through our shelter, but when the government of the deed countries were prepared to send our migrant workers home, our government seemed to be not prepared at all. 


Hi everyone. The COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 and 2021. Hit Nepali migrant workers hard thousands working in India were blocked from crossing the border into Nepal. Others overseas were laid off and confined to living quarters with little or no food, no money, and no tickets home. We recorded this episode in the midst of that dark period while it describes the terrible conditions and uncertainty affecting migrants. 


It is at the same time a good primer on some of the core [00:01:00] issues around migration and Nepal with my guests, Bija Rasta of the NGO AMCAS and Academic Ramish Sunham. We touched on topics including the ban on women migrating to work in Persian Gulf countries, the impact of caste on decisions to migrate. 


The invisibility of Dalis who migrate to work in India and the need for stronger policies from nepal's governments. Unfortunately, it seems like some of the optimism you'll hear in this episode was unrealistic. Little seems to have improved in the migration file in the past five years. What do you think have conditions improved for Nepali iGrant since 2020? 

Let me know by clicking on, send us a text in the show notes. I'll talk to you next time with a new episode. First of all, I'd like to welcome you both [00:02:00] Ramesh and Bja to the podcast. Thank you mate. Thank you for like giving this opportunity and uh, hi Ramji. Hello. Nice to see you here. And thank you for the invitation. 


You're very welcome. So, BJA, let's start, uh, our discussion with you. Um, can you tell us briefly what your organization AMCAS was focused on before all of the pandemic, uh, changed our lives and how that, how your work has changed since then? Of course, AMCAS means means a women migrant workers group, so, uh. 


Is a, an organization of ly women migrant workers. So before this pandemic also, we were working like re uh, first of all, we are uniting ly women migrant workers into our network. And, uh, we, our main activity is of course advocacy because [00:03:00] there are so many laws and policies that is like discriminatory against women, migrant workers, and of course women. 


So advocacy. And the other thing is we do a lot of awareness because most of the women migrant workers who are migrating, they're illiterate and they are, you know, trafficked through illegal channel. That is why. Even, uh, many of them become undocumented workers in destination country, so they get exploited and face a lot of problems. 

So awareness program is another very main activity that we are doing. We work in the whole cycle of migration to make migration safer. Uh, dignified work for, uh, women, migrant workers and their families. So we work, uh, from the pre, uh, uh, departure to the post arrival. So the other thing is we also do, you know, our networking, we are very uh. 

Uh, strongly. Uh, we, uh, believe in networking. That's why we have, we are, we have local networks. We, we are also, uh, members of the, uh, our national network. There's a network called a ne, uh, national [00:04:00] Network for Safe Migration. And we are the member of that network. And we also, uh, member of regional network called Migrant Forum in Asia. 


And we are networks in the global network is get w So, and we are, we, that's why we, uh, you know, advocate from the local level to the global level. And also we, uh, another thing is we do a lot of, because there are so many women who are facing legal problems, legal, legal issues, because they're trafficked, they're cheated by the traffickers, recruitment agencies. 


So we do a lot of paralegal services. And another very important, uh, activity that we do is shelter services. We, we have a, we run a shelter and through this shelter we support, uh, distress returning women, migrant workers. Uh, in, in destination countries, and then we escort them from the airport, bring them to our shelter, and provide them all the necessary services that is needed. 


Many of them, I know 90% of them are undocumented workers because, uh, the main issue we are facing, uh, today [00:05:00] also, uh, when we started, uh, to working in this issue also is the ban that our government has imposed. To women migrant workers. And now also there is a ban for women, migrant workers, especially to domestic workers who are the most vulnerable ones, and they are the one who are facing a lot of problems. 


So, because of the ban, most of these women, they are undocumented. And these un they are, they are the one who we support in our shelter. Like many of them come with mental problems, psychosocial problems, and, uh, many of they come also, uh, in a pregnant situation. Now, most of these women do not have any choices. 


Whether or not they like it or not, they migrate that because that is the only option for them, which is cheap for them and easy for them. We, and then the traffickers, they easily lu these vulnerable women. Yeah. That's a very good overview and I think later we'll talk, uh, more about how things could change to improve, uh, the lot of women migrant workers. 


Um, so now you were [00:06:00] busy doing all of this work early this year and then. COVID-19 hit and suddenly things changed for migrant workers. How has that affected your work and this lockdown has, you know, affected women migrant workers more? I, I, I always say that they are double victimized because most of these women are the undocumented, right? 


So, and our government who are giving services, they say that they can give services totally documented as if these undocumented workers are not supporting or are not contributing out to our nation. So these women who are in this country, they were, you know, facing so much of problems because most of them, like these domestic workers, they were like kicked out of the house, you know, saying that okay, you are like Corona carriers by the employers. 


And we have been from day one of the lockdown, we have been, uh, you know, uh, talking and, you know, sitting meet, uh, in meetings with our government to sit with it, to tell them that we have to be prepared. You know, after all we are running a shelter, you [00:07:00] know, whether there's a pandemic, there's a lockdown or not. 


We are supporting women migrant workers through our shelter, but. But when the government of the de trans countries were prepared to send our migrant workers home, our government seemed to be not prepared at all. We, our government had prepared like some holding centers, some quarantine centers, but when we, uh, visited these quarantine centers and these holding centers, they were very like. 


Unmanaged Unsystematic, and I think so we are the only organizations, uh, civil society organization who is really, who are really working, uh, in this to support, uh, returning women migrant workers in the shelter. So, uh, it is a, it's a very big challenge for us because our shelter, it's, uh, the capacity of a shelter is only 20. 


But because of the social distancing, we were prepared to only, uh, you know, support like 10 to 10 to 12, uh, retaining women migrant workers. But we could not do that. There were so many women migrant workers in the holding centers, in the quarantine centers who are facing a lot of problems. So we, we could not, you know, just see and just, you know, bring only a [00:08:00] few of them. 


And we rented the rooms from the ho in a hotel, and we are supporting, uh, returning women migraine workers, the most needy ones because, uh, they are the ones, you know, who, who need a lot of support. Uh, especially the ones who are, who have returned with children who are pregnant and who have severe, severe mental problems, you know? 


Uh, so, and you know, Marty, now we have, uh, till now we have supported more than a hundred, uh, distressed women, migrant workers who are affected by this, uh, COVID-19. The, another big challenge we are facing is that, uh, you know, women, uh, who are, you know. Finally they are back home. But the problem is when they go to the community, they are not let into the community because the community thinks that these routine immigrants are the carriers of like Corona. 


So what we, we urge our government, we urge our government and we provided them some these PCR tests, right? So the thing is that when we, you know, uh, did this PCR test and they had the negative result and they carried this negative [00:09:00] result, uh, report on their, in their hand and they go to the community also, many of them were, you know, uh, accepted by the community, but few of them were still not accepted by the family, and so we had to bring them back and place them somewhere else. 


So these are the problems that we are facing, but we, we, we have not lost hope. We are still fighting to supporting, we're still advocating pressurizing our government. Right. Thanks. I mean, the, the issues are, it's a long list of issues to deal with. I heard also of one of the first batches of women workers who flew into the country. 


Some of them didn't even have enough money to go back to pay for the bus to go back to their home villages. And so that, that also became an issue. So this is about, uh, women, migrant workers, Ramesh, you, I mean, you study workers, men and women, migrant workers. Are the issues that BJA is just describing, do, are they affecting all migrant workers? 


Uh, in general? Uh, Luke Martin, uh, you [00:10:00] know, the issues are really important as, uh, BJA, uh, described and. Uh, what I liked about, um, CA is that, um, they have been focusing on undocumented and, and women migrant workers regarding the impact of, uh, this, um, coronavirus pandemic on migrant workers. Um, of course, uh, women are, uh, you know, they're disproportionately affected. 


Um, uh, but at the same time, in general, um, all the plete migrant workers who had overseas, particularly in Malaysia and uh, DCC countries. Uh, I, I think that, uh, they're losing jobs and, uh, a lot of them have also passed a reduction in their working hours. Basically, it means that, uh, they are losing incomes, uh, and, uh, their families back home. 

They're also being affected, uh, because, uh, their migrant family members have not been able to send s. Right. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for that, Ramesh. Um, [00:11:00] bj, I just wanted to, to follow up with a quick question from what you were saying. Do you have any idea how many women have come back because of the pandemic and how many are stuck in their countries and still want to come back but have been unable? 


Uh, Marty, I'm so sorry. I, I, I exactly don't know the number. Yeah. But we have supported, already supported in these 20 days, we have supported, uh, 101 women, rich women migrant workers, and, uh, 19 of them were, uh, in a pregnant situation. Okay, great. Thank you Vijaya. Um, Ramesh, I wanted to ask you something. You know, we, I think we often think of migrant laborers or there's more focus on laborers who go overseas. 


So they go to Malaysia as a big destination and Gulf countries also as we know. Um, but after Nepal locked down in late in March and shut its borders with India, [00:12:00] there was this dramatic return of tens of thousands of Nepalis from India. Where Nepali have been going to work for centuries, actually. Um, and we rarely hear about this group, but it became big news because they were stuck at the border and there were some reports, these dramatic reports of people jumping in into a river to swim across. 


And I, I was reading an article that we this week that says that this group of. Migrant laborers are not even considered migrant laborers by Nepali Law. They're actually legally different than other registered migrant laborers who go overseas. So why is there such a difference? Um, uh, Luke Marty, uh, this is very unc, unfortunate to see. 


Um, um, there has been, uh, some sort of negligence, uh, uh. Uh, towards, um, Nepal migrant workers who are in India, [00:13:00] uh, to see the least. I think they are, uh, individual and also, uh, largely unheard. Um, perhaps the Nepali state. Um, uh, think that, you know, uh, going, uh, to India because we have, uh, long historical, you know, um, uh, bilateral relationship. 


India, India, and uh, and, uh, we have open border and, uh, mobility much easier, um, uh, uh, between, uh, the Nepal, India and for I think, cultural and historical reason. Uh, the government, uh, is not very, uh, I think, uh, serious about documenting, uh, uh, Nepalese, uh, workers going to India. So unfortunately, um, as, as you, uh, just described, uh, you know, when the. 


A lot of Nepal migrant workers from India when they wanted to come back to Nepal, uh, the government of, of Nepal was, uh, very unprepared at that time. And, uh, um, and I think that they, uh, the [00:14:00] government of Nepal had some sort of, uh, understanding with the government of India and, uh. And, uh, they blocked, uh, the government of Nepal blocked a lot of migrant workers at, at the borders, and particularly, uh, because of this, uh, policy failure, I would say, uh, a lot of Nepal migrant workers, they took different, you know, clandestine kind of routes, uh, to. 


Enter Nepal. And, uh, as you can see, if, uh, we look at the statistics of, uh, uh, COVID, uh, infected people and, uh, you know, a lot of people who have been infected, they were coming from, uh, India because they enter Nepal through different, uh, channels, you know. I think, yeah, you, uh, uh, Ramish, Ramish G is right. I think it's, it's, uh, because of the treaty our government has, you know, India government, Nepal government has, and I, uh, why, uh, in, uh, migrants, Indian migration is not considered in most of the studies, and our government does not consider as [00:15:00] considered as migrants because most of the migrants who migrate to India are seasonal migrants because we have an open border. 


That is one reason. You know, in my, uh, opinion, it's one reason we have an open border, and then the, and then Indian migrants also, there are a lot of Indian migrants in Nepal and the lots of Nepali migrants in, uh, India. And the, I think they contributed a lot in the remittance also. These, uh, uh, our Nepali who are in, uh, because the economic, the remittance that comes from Indian, uh, migrants is, uh, uh, bigger than the remittance that is coming from, uh, other countries. 


That's what, uh, some research says. So I think Indian migration will be considered in future. Okay. That's great. So that, I think that was important to, to make that point about Indian migration because it does get overlooked. And we've talked very briefly about. Some conditions that migrant laborers are facing when they come back and, and how difficult that is. 


I wonder if we can kind of step [00:16:00] back a little bit and look more overall at how labor migration has helped to shape Nepal and Ramesh. You've just published a book, it's called the Remittance Village, if I'm not mistaken. That's, um, can you. Kind of give us an overview of what labor migration has meant and continues to mean to a country like Nepal. 


Um, thank you Marty. Um, as you know, um, labor migration from Nepal is a significant, uh, in terms of the scale, uh, of the Berg migration. Um, uh, you know, estimated, this is just an estimate. Um, one in five working with people. Um. From Nepal. Um, they are overseas, uh, for employment and this is a very significant, uh, figure. 


And in 2019, uh, last year, uh, Nepal received around 8 [00:17:00] billion in US dollar in remittances. Uh, this amount is, uh, equivalent around 21st 5% of the VDB, the gross domestic product. And, uh, as you, as you can see, uh, uh, many research that and scholars have, uh, uh, long described Nepal as, as, as remittance economy. 


So not only at the national label, if we look at the, you know, rural economy, many related Nepal, they have converted into sort of remittance related that this means a lot of families in rural areas, they rely, uh, you know, remittance incomes for, uh, you know, their livelihoods. For educating their children, for covering health expenses and for purchasing food, broadly speaking. 


It has lots of positive and negative impacts on Nepal's economy and, uh, society as a whole. Uh, if you look at the, you know, uh, figure of poverty deduction in Nepal, [00:18:00] remittance have contributed a lot. Uh, you know, we had, uh, a. Incidents. Uh, in 1995, about 41% it have gone. Poverty rate had have gone down to 25%. 


So, uh, there are many other, you know, uh, positive, uh, impacts of, uh, migration, for example, uh. Uh, many scholars have said, including my own research, so that, uh, uh, there are cases of gender empowerment, uh, Nepal, and also there are significant improvements in health education, uh, and in security indicators. 


And these are, you know, greater shipments. But at the same time, there are also several, uh, negative I would say. Uh, you can see the putting pool, you know, has increased in the pond, Nepali the agricultural country. But, uh, it imports a lot of food from India. Uh. Mainly, uh, because, um, a lot of able-bodied men, you know, working [00:19:00] with people, um, they are away from the country and, uh, we can see there has been a labor es and, uh, a lot of agricultural land has left uncultivated. 


So, uh, there is a decline in, uh, agricultural productivity. And, uh, socially, you know, uh, I think knows more. Um, there are, um, several cases of family breakdown, divorce and weakening, you know, family bonds, uh, mistrust between, you know, husband and wives, uh, because of the, uh, you know, uh, extended sense of from a family. 


Uh, and I would also want to highlight, you know, a lot of Nepali, uh, Nepalese migrants, they have died overseas. In the last decade or so, around 7,000 Nepali migrant workers have died overseas. Um, mainly due to poor working conditions and, uh, workplace accidents or in injuries. So, uh, you know, and [00:20:00] there are both positive and negative impacts of, uh, uh, labor migration. 


But, uh, when the, uh, we look at the, uh, labor migration, uh, in this, uh, COVID, uh, pandemic context, uh, I think, uh. Uh, what I would say is that, um, a neighbor migration from Nepal. Might resume, uh, in, in the next three to five years when the global economies or economies in Asia, in Malaysia, Japan, South Korea and uh, countries start, uh, recovering. 


Um, so, uh, uh, because, uh, these, uh, like, uh, in Malaysia and other countries, um, there are many, you know, global companies, although they are based in Asia. There are many international companies, uh, uh, in different sectors, uh, manufacturing, construction, and services sectors, and they really need cheap and flexible labor. 


And ly the migrants, um, are providing that kind of labor, low skilled, uh, [00:21:00] low paid, uh, and, uh, the global economic, the regime economic need, uh, simply able to make a profit. Um, the other reason behind, uh. You know, migration from Nepal. If we look at the demographic structure of, uh, some Asian countries, for example, Japan, South Korea, um, you know, population with aging, it is sort of an aging society. 


And, uh, there is, uh, uh, uh, very low below, you know, replacement label kind of, uh, block rate. It's very declining and there has been a. Huge shortage of labor, even now in Japan and other countries. So they really need migrant labor, foreign labor to, to keep their economic running. Uh, and then, then finally what I would say is that, uh, uh. 

The kind of labor market where Nepal, Nepalese workers are employed. It's, it's, it's sort of segmented. Uh, Nepalese workers are doing [00:22:00] kind of, you know, 3D you know, uh, difficult and there's a demeaning kind of work, which, uh. Citizen workers or native workers in migrant distance countries are reluctant to take off. 


So because of the pandemic, we can't, uh, say for sure that, you know, uh, this kind of treat d kind of work can be, uh, you know, taken up by, uh, native workers. Of course, there will be a reduction in jobs, but, uh, we can't say that, you know, there will not be any demand for migrant labor for, uh, these kind of low scale, low paid jobs. 


So for all these regions, uh, I would say that there will be demand for NEP migrant manipulate migrant workers, uh, in three to five years. But it is entirely, um, depend on the context of Nepal. If Nepal is able to create informant, uh, and create, uh, different sort of, uh, incentives for, uh, migrant attorneys and, uh, prospective migrants to retain them in the power. 


Right. [00:23:00] I mean, that's a very good, uh, summary of what I think is a, as you say, a very complicated issue. Right. So, I mean, just to look at a couple factors, you know, on one hand, positive, as you were saying, poverty reduction. On the other hand, negative migrant workers are away from the country and their families for, you know, years at a time. 


And that that obviously has an impact individually on individual families. But you know, perhaps even beyond that, let me ask one question to try to get at kind of the heart of this. And I'm not, I don't think one question can do it, but do you think that. Most Nepalese believe that in the near future, five years or 10 years, there will be no need for labor migration in the country that the country will have developed to a point where people can stop going [00:24:00] overseas to do that work. 


Or do people think it's just a part of, you know, working life in Nepal? Thanks for this, uh, interesting question, Marty. Um, that, uh, uh, I would see there are many opportunities, uh, uh, in Nepal to create employment for, uh, young people. Um, as long as, uh, we get, um, uh, you know, uh, the right policies, for instance, uh, uh, Nepal, um, kin treating to women for, uh, young people through agricultural line. 


Non agricultural, uh, uh, sort of, uh, businesses. Uh, right now a lot of people are migrating out of, out of the country because there are limited employment opportunity within the country, and agriculture is not being sufficient to meet the rising aspirations of, uh, young people. Um, and, uh, now, [00:25:00] uh, the government is, uh, very serious about, uh, developing programs, uh, and policies. 


Uh, to create employment, for instance, uh, the government is coming up, uh, with, uh, the Land Bank policy. The idea behind the Land Bank is that, uh, the government, uh, wants to create employment in agriculture. And, uh, they want to allocate, uh, unused or uncultivated land to people or, uh, you know, written migrants or other people who are interested in agriculture. 


And, uh, through this, uh, the government also, there will be, uh, a lot of agricultural enterprises and, uh, agricultural expansion. Uh. Uh, it might, um, you know, help to retain a lot of, uh, uh, people in the park. But young people particularly, they are not one interested in agriculture. Many young people, they want to, they don't want to live in a rural area, particularly dudes from well of families. 


They want to build their futures in cities and [00:26:00] towns. So I think the government can also work on creating, uh, employment opportunity in the cities and, uh, and in the towns, uh, particularly targeting the young people who want to, uh, see their futures in cities. And, uh, in relation to your questions, the migrant workers in the Nepalese migrant workers who are overseas, they are not facing, you know, very positive. 


Uh, outcomes there a lot of, uh, migrant workers are fear facing, you know, exploitation and, uh, precarity or precarious. They have precarious exploits. So once they return to Nepal, uh, they have, uh, kind of, you know, old view and kind of social limited ideas, uh, uh, you know, how they can run businesses in a better way. 


So what they have realized now that, well, you know, life overseas, you know. Life in the, uh, distance in countries in Malaysia or, or in the Gulf State. It's not that easy. [00:27:00] And, uh, they have this kind of experience, negative experiences, and I think that they have a sort of a feeling now that, uh, they want to do something in their own home country. 


Uh, they want to stay with their family. And, um, something in their own homeland. So they have this kind of, uh, you know, worldview now. And I think, uh, this is very important that worldview, uh, it has generated in the minds mindsets of, uh, a lot of Britain, uh, return migrants. So I would like to focus again that, uh. 


It all depends on what kind of policies and programs the government of Nepal can come up with. So if it, it facilitates, um, uh, return migrants or young people to access to land financial services, credit deed, I think it would help a lot, uh, you know, to establish new businesses, uh, whether it is related to agriculture or other, other sectors. 


So also, uh, what I would like to highlight [00:28:00] here is that I think the current, uh, um, you know, process in Nepal, uh, you know, for, for registering business and running businesses are very complicated. And at this time, you know, the government can simplify or relaxed rules for registering, you know, uh, registering, uh, enterprises, uh, and businesses. 


Thank you Ramji, you, you gave a very, uh, uh, nice overview of, uh, what, uh, uh, your research was and it's good. Yeah, and I totally agree with every point you said about the, the two sides of migration, the negative and the positive. You know, we always say also I think for women, migrant workers also, migration has been. 


Positive and a negative. It's an a big, big opportunity for them also. And the other thing is they face a lot of challenges. Many of these migrants, when you, you know, ask them, when we do certain researchers, we have done certain researchers and we have come to know that most of them migrate is because of poverty. 


Uh, and you say that poverty line has also, you know, [00:29:00] dropped down. The rate has dropped down. It's definitely yes. And the other thing is domestic violence. So that is one another way that they are saying that that help might be better than this help. So that is another reason they are easily lured by traffickers or the local agents in their community because when we ask them, most of them, the agents are the ones whom they know very well and they are from there. 


Most of them are from the same community and uh, they go as undocumented workers. So. Yes, migration has both positive and negative. And, uh, about the question that Marty, you, uh, asked of course. I think, uh, looking at the scenario of migration, the trend of migration, I think the unskilled migration or maybe low paid migration. 


Might decrease because when I started working on migration issue, women migrants issue, uh, 20 years ago, uh, like women, they, they used to earn around eight to 10,000 Nepal rupees as a domestic worker. But nowadays women, they are not, you [00:30:00] know, um, uh, interested in going for that amount of, uh, salary nowadays. 


Even if they go for, as domestic worker, they expect the salary of more than 20,000. Right. So I think the low skill migration might. Like decrease. But still the high skill migration, because it's a globalization era of globalization, migration will never stop. And, um, uh, maybe, uh, people will be more aware of their rights and there will be more policies, uh, to, for them to. 


Fight for their rights, but migration will not stop because migration is a, an is an opportunity. And why people want to migrate is because of the unstable policy, the unstable politics in our country. It's, they, we, we always say that our policy, our politics is never going to like, uh. Uh, become good or improve so that they can, this, uh, the citizen of Nepal can, uh, live happily in our own country. 


So, and that is one reason and the systems are not, uh, you know, the development is, uh, [00:31:00] that the development is fast, but. Uh, you know about, look at the, the, the agricultural thing, and once upon a time, we used to say Nepal is an agricultural country, but now if you go to the village, most of the land are barren as, uh, uh, Ramish g mentioned Just now, we, now our government has a, a policy, new policy called the Land Bank. 


I don't know whether it's going to work or not, because, but I think I, hopefully, uh, it, it'll work because most of the migrants who have gone in a low skill, low skill migrants, or semi-skilled or unskilled migrants. Most of them do not have enough land also. But the thing is that now in the era of technology, our government has to in, uh, like, uh, introduce technologies, new technologies, if. 


Our government really wants to work on, uh, agriculture. So people are expecting those kind of things. That is another thing that attracts, uh, Nepali migrants to, to migrate for foreign labor migration because at least you know, they can like, uh, see the new technologies, [00:32:00] enjoy the new technologies, enjoy the development of the countries, which we cannot enjoy in our own countries. 


So that is another reason, but. I, uh, I have to say that our government has to work with the government of the destination country to, uh, to come up with policies that will, that is a kind of win-win situation for both the governments. Um, yeah, I think, uh, which the indicated that, uh, uh, we might see a decrease, uh, in the migration. 


I think, uh, uh, she's right. I think we have to also look at the. Uh, demand side context. That means, uh, from the side of a migrant reshipping country, you know, Japan, South Korea, Malaysia, and the Gulf States, they want, uh, Nepalese workers because they are sheep and they can work at, uh, uh, you know, the low end of labor markets in the ma the, the [00:33:00] kind of jobs. 


In which, uh, you know, native workers, citizen workers are not interested. So, uh, particularly in Asia, there will be a demand, uh, for a loose skilled migrant workers. And I, I wonder there, there will not be, uh, uh, I think, uh, you know, demand for high skilled workers from Nepal precisely for the reason that, uh, uh, you know, high paid and well ruminated jobs. 


Uh, will be, I think, job for ci, the citizen workers, for example, in Japan where I'm now here, you know, uh, low paid, low skilled jobs are job for migrant workers and, uh, well rated, highly paid, high skilled jobs are. Usually, you know, retain for Japanese people. So there is kind of, you know, segmentation. There is a labor division here. 


So, uh, I wonder whether this situation will change in the future or not. We'll have to see. And [00:34:00] also, uh, to compare between Australia, the US and Asian labor market in Australia, uh, for migrant people, there are pathways for permanent settlement there. Migrant workers, if they stay there for a long time, they can obtain permanent residency and they come, they become a citizen relatively easily, easier, easily compared to Asian countries. 


For example, in Japan, even if I'm here for, you know, for 10 years or 15 years, uh, I wouldn't be, uh, it'll be very difficult, relatively difficult for me to become a citizen here. But, uh, if, uh, in the case of, uh, the US or Australia, it's a lot easier there for permanent settlement. So, high school people, they want to go there, uh, because the, they can find a, um, you know, pathway for permanent settlement. 


And regarding the Land Bank, uh, I think, uh, I'm also, uh, like, uh, I don't know whether [00:35:00] it'll work or not, but, uh, um, because I also work on, you know, agricultural development. Uh, uh, I have done some research based on my experience. I think this policy, um, I'm a cynical about this policy land bank policy because it may help, uh. 

Uh, particularly the poor people and, and, and, and, uh, landless people in Nepal, uh, they might, uh, uh, lose, uh, their access to land because of this land bank policy, because the, the land bank would provide land to people who are capable of doing, um, in agricultural activity and businesses because poor people, uh, you know, they lack collateral and also other capabilities. 


I think when the bank assesses land, bank assesses their capabilities, uh, they may not pay well. Um, I want to go way back to something that you said a while ago, Vijaya, and I feel that I should know this [00:36:00] already, but it really startled me when you talked about the number of women who go to work overseas or go as migrant laborers because they're escaping, uh, violence and abuse. 


Is there, is there a rough figure about that? Is it half of the women who leave or 10% or 90% or can you just say a little bit more about that? Definitely, uh, Marty, uh, uh, last year, two, I think 18, 2017, we did a small, uh, research on women migrant workers, the exploitation, and we found out, we, we did interview, we interviewed 60 women, so like out of 60 50 of them said that they, they wanted to escape domestic violence, and they thought that, that hell might be there better than this. 


Hell. They, and, uh, you know, uh, many, uh, few of them, like, uh, they, they had only, they, they gave birth to daughters, two, three daughters, and then the husband left. And the, the in-laws treated them very badly. So she wanted to migrate because nobody was, uh, her husband [00:37:00] was not supporting her children, her daughters, and, uh, uh, many of them, the drunken husbands, the addicted husbands. 


So that is, that is why we have, we say that. Most of these women, they migrate due to the domestic violence that they are facing and that it's very easy for the traffickers, for the, the, the agents, the local agents to lure them, you know, to cheat them, you know, to, to go to the as domestic workers. 


Um, uh, I just would like to add something to what Bija said, uh, Marty, I think, um, yes. Uh, yes, there are economic regions behind, uh, uh, labor migration from Nepal. Uh, what I would like to add is that, uh, uh, a lot, uh, a lot of, uh, people from, uh, uh, the look, uh, the so-called look as. Community, the BA lot of, uh, uh, Bali people, they are migrating overseas, they living country, uh, to distance themselves, uh, uh, from, you know, [00:38:00] exploitative and it was cast license. 


Of course they are poor and they want to generate incomes, but at the same time, they also want to escape, you know, uh, caste based discrimination. Right. Okay. Uh, just again, highlighting how complicated this, this issue is, and we could probably do, you know, 10 discussions on, on this issue, but, uh, unfortunately we obviously don't have time. 

So if we're looking to the future, obviously one of the main. Topics that people are discussing is migrant labor and agriculture, and how to have returning migrant workers. 

Get into agriculture. So that's one, one of the main opportunities that is presented. Another that we hear about often is people starting the small businesses and there's the fact that they need to, you know, be given assistance and the process needs to be streamlined.[00:39:00]  


I'm wondering are there any examples, uh, and Ramesh maybe start with you, of countries that. Or maybe a bit ahead of Nepal in terms of the labor migration curve and have already made, uh, provisions for migrant workers to reintegrate and where they're having some success. If we look at, uh, you know, labor sending countries, uh, or, or migrants sending countries a source, communities a source countries, uh, in Asia, the Philippines. 


Uh, Vietnam, Indonesia, Laos, uh, and, uh, uh, Sri Lanka, Pakistan. There are many countries, uh, uh, who have been, uh, uh, sending, uh, the people overseas for work. I think, uh, what, uh, I could see is that, uh, this liberal migration is, uh, you know, like there are many [00:40:00] positive aspects, uh, but uh, uh, in the most part it is like a trap. 

Uh, it's a trap in a sense that, you know, once people, uh, you know, get involved in the labor migration, international labor migration and this kind of cycle, uh, continues. For example, you know, uh, I did, uh, uh, some, uh, research in, uh, some delays in Nepal, uh, in ra, in lowland area and in the middle hills. What I could see is that, you know, uh, the cycle of migration. 


Uh, it's continued. Of course, people are migrating because, uh, they are, they're facing poverty. Uh, they have, uh, uh, small, uh, path of land, uh, and agricultural productivity is declining. And what migration is doing is that it is, you know, ing the existing problems, development problems. People are migrating because agricultural really not helping them to meet their [00:41:00] aspirations, to meet their, you know, uh, living expenses. 

And what is this, what this migration is doing that, uh, you know, because of the shortage of labor, you know, it is, uh, again, you know, making agriculture, uh, worse. And that's why, you know, more people would have to migrate. So it is not addressing, it is not addressing the co addressing the cause of migration itself. 


It is not, uh, creating opportunities, uh, in source communities, in, in migrant sending communities, uh, so that, you know, more people would not, uh, uh, have to migrate. So, uh, so what I would say is that, um, uh, of course some countries, the Philippines and Indonesia and other countries are, um, doing their best, you know, uh, to, to retain. 

Return migrants now through different policies. Uh, but, uh, uh, it have not been successful. The migration cycle, you know, uh, continues. So I think, uh, the [00:42:00] country, uh, has to be really innovative, uh, to, to to, to, uh, retain and, uh, engage, uh, the return migrant workers and prospective migrants. I would give you one example, uh, from, uh, it's dava in Indonesia. 


Uh, from where, uh, you know, a lot of women are in Singapore or Hong Kong or in Taiwan. Uh, women are migrating in Nepal. You know, mostly men migrate overseas, uh, from Indonesia. It is, uh, women, they are migrating overseas in significant numbers. So women are sending the remittances back home and, uh, their husbands are using that to, to. 

Uh, for, for, you know, region cows, dairy cows and, uh, and other agricultural activity. And, uh, they have been able to do that with the support of the local government. The local government is providing them, you know, some kind of access to forest and land. So they are [00:43:00] utilizing the remittances productively and, uh, um, they're being able to enhance, uh, their household incomes. 


So that when they're, uh, you know, white, they return home, uh, I think they may not be able to, they may, they may not have to migrate again. So to create this kind of situations where, uh, migrant families or migrant workers, uh, would not have to, you know, repeat migration, I think, uh, uh, the role of the local government or central government is important. 


So policies and pro programs of the government matter more than, you know, what individuals can do. So if there are no good policies, uh, coming from the government, I think, uh, uh, rural people, poor people will have to, again, uh, they have, they will have to pursue the pathway of migration. Okay. Can I share my experience, Marty? 


As I told you earlier, that, uh, we, from day one, we wanted economic empowerment, economic empowerment of retaining women, migrant [00:44:00] workers because until, and unless a woman is not economically empowered. Uh, uh, you know, this unsafe migration will go on and on. So what I, uh, uh, what we did was, uh, in 2000, uh, 10, I think, uh, it was un fm again. 


They ke uh, they supported us with one, uh, reintegration program. It was, it's, it was called soc uh, economic Security for Retaining Women Migrant Workers. Because, you know, we have like, uh, we have members, we are, uh, a member of a regional network called Migrant Forum in Asia. Through that network, we had this opportunity. 


We had this opportunity to, uh, visit, you know, uh, Philippines I think is the best, uh, country who are doing a lot of reintegration program and economic empowerment for returning migrants and their families. I visited, uh, one of these, uh, some of these, uh, returning migrants who were, uh. Uh, uh, under this program. 


And they, they were doing agricultural work, but they [00:45:00] seem not to be satisfied. They said, oh, we are doing this, but you know, we don't have a good market and our government is not helping us with our, uh, market policy. And then we wouldn't have a, a good market to sell our crops. So I think like, uh, uh, being a migrant was like, uh, better for me. 


So. I thought, okay, so this is actually not working. We were, it'll work in our country or not. I was thinking about it, but, and in 2010 when we started this, uh, uh, the, this project called, uh, so, uh, economic Equity for Retain Women, migrant Workers, we, uh, we trained. Uh, 750 returning women migrant workers. So we know, uh, we, in, from this project, we were successful. 


700 of them. I immediately became small scale entrepreneurs. They started earning from, uh, 8,000 to 15,000, uh, Nepali rupees. And at that time in 2010 that it was a, a good amount of money. To make this project successful, we had to do a [00:46:00] lot of handholding, you know, a lot of, uh, support to these migrant workers. 


Uh, uh, out of these 700, many of them, I think they have changed their, their business, but they are still, there are some of them still with their own business, like, uh, like Handloom, uh, small, uh, handcraft Industries, handloom Industries. Some have set up a small stall. Some of them have started a grocery shop. 


So, uh, so, and I think it was a very successful project. We did it very well, and many of our immigrants, our members, was very happy at that time. I think Nepal was, uh, one of the best, uh, in this reintroduction program after Philippines. So I think reintroduction program is working in many of our country of origin. 


So, and in Nepal also. Retention program like, uh, now e even if the government is not coming with the, uh, retention program, civil societies has learned and, uh, with the support of from the partners we are doing, uh, reintegration programs and economic empowerment or income generating programs by ourself. 


For [00:47:00] example, in di during this, even in this lockdown situation, uh, there are so many women migrant workers who are returning and they, they have, they are not accepted by their family. So they, they, they are in our shelter and then said, okay, uh, madam, I, we cannot go home because my husband has left me. My, my, my mother-in-law is not going to accept me. 


My family is not accepting me. Please find a job for me. So we have settled around 20, 20, 30 of these kind of women migrant workers in Katmandu, and look for them as they are working as domestic workers in hospitality sectors. But during this pandemic, all of them lost their jobs. So they were asking me, so, uh, what we, what can we do? 


So what I did was I trained 30 of our migrant workers, our returning migrants, so I trained them virtually, uh, uh, a virtual, uh, training on mass making. Uh, one day mask making training, uh, from an expert. We hired a consultant, a mask making trainer, and we gave them, provided all these 30 of them a mask making training, and we provided a sewing machine. 


[00:48:00] So they have started making masks and now we are selling masks and. They are, you know, they have started, I think, uh, it's just initial, uh, uh, initial phase. I don't know how they, how much they're going to earn, but at least they are, they can sell. They said, okay. I, I sold two masks today and that with that money I bought some vegetables. 

So that is kind of, uh, you know, income genetic program for them. So these kind of, uh, things are working in Nepal. So it sounds like you're saying that reintegration can work, but it needs a lot of support. So on one hand we have government, we have civil society, we may need to do some training or retraining, although. 


The women might also return with new skills and there probably needs to be a financial component as well. Is that That's true. That's true. We have to provide them with seed money. Yes. Uh, that also in earliest, uh, program also, we provided them seed money and here also we provided them all the materials, all the sewing machine, everything. 


And plus seed bunny [00:49:00] also, we provided them and they are doing very well. You are organized in the, is involved sum thing to this, um, uh, sector. So you have been doing great things, but you may not be able to reach out to, all right. So I think, um, uh, perhaps the go, the, the, yeah, the government can, I think, uh, get some, uh, some insights and they can, uh, develop some kind of policies so that it can be scaled up. 


There must be, uh, tens or hundreds of organizations now working in this area in migrant working with migrant laborers. No, there, uh, to tell you the truth, we have a national network for safe migration in Nepal, and it has 20 organizations. And, uh, I think, uh, out of this 20 organization, I think few only like, uh, two, three organizations are only working, you know, totally, you know, all in all in migration, the migraine cycle, but other organizations, it's a migration is a component for the organization. 


Right. They work, like they do work [00:50:00] on domestic violence and migration is part of, uh, their activity. Maybe some of them are working on trafficking only and then migration is a part of their activity. So we need more, uh, organizations working on, uh, migration issues. Exactly. Uh, especially not only in the national level, uh, we all working in the, uh, in the local level. 


Also. There should be a lot of organization. We have networks in the local level. Uh, our, uh, members in the local level, they have formed networks. They're working in, uh, like five, six districts for us. But there should be, you know, this kind of, uh, organizations working on migration totally on migration workers in all, uh, all the seven, uh, provinces and all the, you know, districts. 


I, uh, I think so. Only then reintegration is, uh, it will work? I think so. Okay. Right. And, and that, uh, brings up a good point and maybe Ramish, you mentioned it earlier also. Now we're under a federal system. Nepal has a federal system of gov government. So we have local governments, uh, municipal governments, and also [00:51:00] provincial governments. 


So, d does this offer some opportunity for, for greater support? For former migrant workers in terms of integration or, or just so that people don't have to go, uh, to migrate in the first place to work. Um, is there some promise there working with these different levels of government? Yeah, Marty, I think, um, there are, uh, huge opportunities, uh, uh, for the local government. 


And what I would say is that, that, you know, in the case of reintegration, uh. The local government should be at the forefront. Um, and, uh, some, some, uh, I have heard some, uh, local governments, rural municipalities, uh, uh, that they have developed, uh, programs to support, uh, migrant return. Uh, for example, uh, providing them, uh, some sort of financial incentives. 


Uh. [00:52:00] Seed money to start the businesses, uh, in agriculture or other sectors. Uh, and also pa facilitating their access to land. Uh, and also there have, uh, um, a lot of, uh, providence, uh, some, some, uh, local governments have, uh, you know, started. But, uh, I think, uh, we'll have to document these, you know, positive, uh, or success stories, you know. 


Okay. Okay. Well that's promising. Let me ask you one final question, which is, uh, a couple of weeks ago or 10 days ago, I read in the paper that the government is already planning flights. To send people to go work as migrant labor. I was a bit surprised because we were still talking and focused so much on what will happen with the migrant labor who are returning because of COVID-19 and here at the same time, plans are being made to [00:53:00] send people abroad. 


I mean, what is your overall reaction to that? Uh, both of you? If they, if the government ask me, I'm totally against that because our government is, has not been able to bring all the migrants who wants to come back, who are prepared to come back, but not migrants from our country to be sent there because the situation of COVID is still, you know, the, it is still not, uh, you know, I think, uh, done yet. 


So I think, um, yes, the governments are planning and, you know, there are some migrants who have already. They got their working visa and then they had already booked their flight and they were not able to go. They have been asking, you know, because I'm working on one of the mobile application also, and there is a question answer portal, it's called, and there's so many, you know, uh, of them asking our potential migrants saying, okay, uh, when is the flight going to start? 


We want to go for, uh, to work in over, go to overseas for work. You know, so I'm always telling them it's so, it like. Uh, we are not done with bringing back [00:54:00] migrants from the country and, you know, going to work there is like, it's uh, it's far away. So don't, uh, uh, think about going to work now. Maybe it will take a year. 


So I think the government has to be fully prepared and say that, okay, we are fully out of like, danger from, uh, the Corona or the COVID. Then only I think the government should start sending migrants. Um, thank you, Zi. I agree completely with, um, uh, zi. The, the government should focus on creating employment opportunities and business opportunities within the country. 


Uh, it's important, uh, given that crisis, uh, are recurrent. Um, you know, we had, uh, uh, you know, global financial crisis in 2008 onwards. At that time also, the whole process of this international labor migration was disrupted. And a lot of Nepal migrant workers, uh, returned at that time as well. And we had, you know, I think it was in 1998, we [00:55:00] had the Asian financial crisis at that time. 


A lot of, uh, you know. Southeast Asian countries, uh, were affected by that. A lot of migrant from, uh, you know, Indonesia and other countries were affected. So, you know, this kind of global crisis, uh, it is related to public health or economy. I think these are very recurrent, I think, and it is in the best interest of, uh, Nepal, uh, to, uh, you know, develop policies, uh, for creating, uh, employment, uh, and other opportunities. 


So that, you know, a lot of people would not have to migrate. Okay. I think go, I think, uh, the government is also not sure that, uh, it'll be able to create, um, a policy environment or employment opportunity. I think for that reason, I think government, uh, may not want to completely stop, you know? Labor migration for, uh, from Nepal because it might lead to, uh, you know, a significant issue of unemployment, which is already, uh, a key issue. 


And, uh, and this is also related to, um, you know, [00:56:00] social and a lot of, uh, political problems. It might lead to, you know, political unraised, uh, if there is a, um, too much on unemployment. So for that region, I think, uh, uh, the government doesn't want to hinder, uh, this, uh, labor migration from the power. Okay. 


Well this has been a fascinating discussion. I just wanna say thank you. Thanks again for taking the time, Billy Marty, thank you for the invitation and I really enjoyed the discussion. Yeah, me too. I think we have spoken a lot, Marty. I.