Nepalis speak about their journeys to and lives in Canada

The number of Nepalis migrating to Canada has zoomed upwards in recent years, many of them first arriving as international students. They came for good education opportunities, free healthcare, and the promise of secure, stable futures.

Many are on the path to reaching those goals, but it hasn't been as easy as they imagined. 

Researchers Deepa Nagari (Toronto Metropolitan University and York University) and Richa Shivakoti (TMU) interviewed a group of Nepali immigrants for a working paper they published last year. They learned many things, of course. Among them:

• Persistent problems in Nepal were a central reason cited by many people for leaving the country
• Nepalis have great networks for learning about possible destination countries like Canada, but social media can present an unrealistic portrayal of life in those places
• In the post-Covid world, settling in Canada is tougher than it used to be
• Many Nepalis have a profound sadness about leaving their country.

That last point really hit me. Of course, I know how strongly many Nepalis are attached to their country and culture, including things like eating dal bhat and speaking their mother tongue. But as someone who always knew that I could come back to Canada more or less when I wanted to, hearing those sentiments I felt the pain of people who believed that they were leaving permanently.

I suspect that every immigrant carries that feeling with them, more or less, forever. 

Resources

Working paper on Nepalis in Canada 

Transcript

Deepa Nagari 0:00

There was like a sadness amongst most of the people that we mentioned. Yes, there were some that were very, very happy to migrate, but a lot of them really, really love Nepal and loved being there. And some of them did mention like a profound sadness at leaving.

marty logan 0:28

Welcome to Nepal Now. My name is Marty Logan. After speaking to former students in our last episodes, today, we're going to widen our view. We're chatting with two researchers, Deepa Nagari and Richa Shivakoti, who interviewed a group of Nepali immigrants for a working paper they published last year. Deepa and Richa learned many things, of course. Among them:*Persistent problems in Nepal were a central reason cited by many people for leaving the country.*Nepalis have great networks for learning about possible destination countries like Canada, but social media can present an unrealistic portrayal of life in those places.*In the post- COVID world, settling in Canada is tougher than it used to be.*And, many Nepalis have a profound sadness about leaving their country. That last point really hit me. Of course, I know how strongly many Nepalis are attached to their country and culture, including things like eating dal bhat and speaking their mother tongue. But as someone who always felt that I could come back to Canada, more or less when I wanted to, hearing those sentiments I felt the pain of people who believed that they were leaving permanently. I suspect that every immigrant carries that feeling with them, more or less, forever. Please listen now to my conversation with Deepa and Richa.

marty 2:00

Deepa Nagari and Richa Shivakoti welcome to Nepal Now podcast!

Deepa Nagari 2:05

Hello. Thanks for having us.

Richa Shivakoti 2:07

Yeah. Thanks for having us.

marty 2:09

So we have a lot of questions that we want to get through today, a lot of things that we want to discuss about your report. Let's get started with the first question. As I know, and a lot of my listeners will know, Nepalis migrate to different countries for different reasons. And I know that you interviewed only 25 people for your work, but from those interviews could you pull out the description of a typical Nepali in Canada? Is that possible?

Richa Shivakoti 2:37

Yeah, I will say that there is no typical Nepali in Canada or elsewhere. But for people to make it to Canada, there are different sets of hoops they need to kind of pass through in comparison to other places. So whether people come in as students or as work permit holders or as permanent residents to Canada, it is not a cheap or a easy process. Canada's own focus also on bringing the best and the brightest, whatever that means, right? is only open to Nepalese who can make it here. So they would have to come from a certain kind of education or socioeconomic background. And currently we see Nepali migrants who have come here through different pathways and are students or workers or permanent residents and citizens. But in the recent past, I would say that there has been some policy changes in Canada, which has led to a visible change in the newcomers from Nepal. I think in the earlier waves we would see more family migration, or people coming through permanent residency. But more recently we have seen a larger number of students coming in, at least for a certain period of time before there was a change in policy towards more restrictions for students.

Deepa Nagari 3:51

Just as a background we looked at the census report on Nepali immigrants in Canada. And, as our working paper shows, the drivers of migration for this group is very, very diverse. And therefore that's why we decided to focus on this group in particular. But most of them live in the GTA and Toronto and Ontario specifically. In the 2011 Canada Census Report around 9,780 people of Nepali ancestry lived in Canada. And in 2016 there were over 14,000 people that specified Nepal as their place of birth. And in 2021, this increased to over 19,000. So it just shows the steady increase of Nepali immigrants in Canada.

marty 4:35

Okay. Can you also explain how Nepali's in Canada would compare to the average Nepali migrant globally?

Current migration trends of Nepalis

Richa Shivakoti 4:44

Sure. So again, there is no average Nepali migrant globally as well. But as I said earlier, Nepalese in Canada are diverse, but they may be coming more from the urban, more from an educated and a more middle class upbringing in Nepal. But overall, when we talk about Nepalese migrating abroad, there is an increasing diversity that we see today. People are going to many, many countries for work, for education, for longer term settlement. And in terms of labor employment people are going to the Gulf countries, to India, to Malaysia in larger numbers. But right now we also see that Nepalese are also exploring newer destinations, especially in East Asia and increasingly to Eastern Europe. For education and long-term kind of settlement we're seeing movement to western countries like the US and Australia and parts of Europe. And we're also seeing an increase in multi- destination or stepwise migration, where people are going to one country maybe for work or for education before they move elsewhere again.

marty 5:55

Okay. Of the people that you interviewed, do you imagine that their experiences, the things they told you, would be similar to Nepalis going to the other so-called Western countries like the UK, US, Europe, etc?

Richa Shivakoti 6:12

Again, these are generalized kind of comments, of course, given the diversity that we just spoke about. But I would say that with all the caveats, I think the overall experiences and opinions may be similar given that they're, again, maybe coming from a similar background in Nepal to be able to make this movements to the Western countries. So I would say that would be something maybe similar.

Deepa Nagari 6:36

we did ask the participants about their decision making process and whether they considered other countries. Some said they didn't Canada was their primary destination because they had family here or friends here or other social networks. But then some did mention comparing different global north countries. So it Australia, the US, the UK and Europe were the most common countries that people mentioned. And the participants said they did a lot of like pro and con work before they chose. So for example, many said they didn't want to go to Europe because being able to speak English or understand English was a main factor. And some said they were concerned about the UK, but more specifically about the US and visa and immigration difficulties so whether they can get work permits, green cards and then pathways to permanency. But then those that considered the US interestingly also spoke about Canada as like proximity to the US and mentioned that they chose Canada because then they could maybe get to the US in the future. And then Australia was an interesting case because some of them mentioned that there are a lot of Nepali immigrants in Australia, so they didn't wanna move there. One participant in particular said she had all her family members move to Australia, so she wanted to choose a completely different country. So they did make these conscious decisions when deciding.

marty 8:00

That's so interesting because obviously there are many Nepalis who go to Australia because there are Nepalis there. That's why the population is so, is so high. But at the same time, as you say, some people don't want to be that close to such a large group of Nepalis. I found through, you know, speaking to some people they have very, very detailed knowledge of what's happening in other countries in terms of requirements like either for school or for immigration in general. And they really keep up on the trends, right.

Richa Shivakoti 8:31

Mm-hmm. People have such a strong network now in Nepal, and that was interesting that they're keeping tab of, you know, all these destinations and making very informed decisions. And doesn't matter if you're going as a low skilled kind of migrant worker to the Gulf or as a, you know, student and paying a lot of money to the US or something, migrants have that agency and they're using it quite well.

marty 8:59

Okay. So let's talk a little bit more about the Canadians sorry, the Nepalis in Canada. Some of them are Canadians. Now I know a lot of people think of their destination country, including Canada, as a dream country. Talk a little bit about what people told you about that.

Migrants expect struggles initially

Richa Shivakoti 9:18

Our interviews shared that in some sense they saw Canada as a dream country because of the stability and the long-term settlement options here. They also felt that the quality of life was gonna be better here than it would in Nepal. And they also came with the opinion that, you know, this country had so many good things going. So for example, they mentioned free healthcare, good education, high paying jobs, and stability. But they also said that they had to adjust their expectations quite a lot once they came here. So it is interesting that most of the people we spoke to, they actually knew that they would have to struggle at least in the initial years here in Canada. So it was not like all a rosy view. That, you know, because of their networks that they have they had heard from their friends and family about how difficult it was here to find accommodation or to find their first job. But they were also not quite prepared for how bad it was actually going to be here. And people also kind of shared that the Canadian dream itself has changed over the years, so now it's actually more difficult to achieve this Canadian dream, whatever they thought it was.(There was a) shared experience of struggle, of de-skilling and of difficulty in the recognition of education credentials, or experiences. And this is similar with other newcomers to Canada as well.

marty 10:49

Another thing I noticed is how people get a lot of information from social media. When I lived in Nepal, I was often asked about life in Canada, and I really tried to give a balanced perspective I think because I have a feeling that people didn't have that; so try to present some of the, I wouldn't say negative things, but challenges right. It's not, obviously as you just said, it's not all positives. There are some challenges as well. And I know that you talked about how people do get a lot of their opinions and viewpoints from social media. How important is that in the picture that they actually develop about the country? How realistic is their perception of what Canada will be?

Deepa Nagari 11:37

I think social media is an important factor. So we just talked about how migrants do their research and they weigh their options. But I think based on what the participants said, social media played a role in giving them a false sense of what Canada looks like. So for example, they mentioned seeing nice cars and nice houses on Instagram, and they said that this gave them an idealized image of Canada being like land of opportunities where you can actually achieve these things that they see other Nepalis or other immigrants achieving. But then when they realized here, as Richa said, that was obviously not the case. One of the participants mentioned hearing about Canada throughout his life... it was funny because he was saying when he thinks about Canada, he thinks of it as like'Canada, this land something to aspire for, something where you can, make a lot of money', and he seemed like he just wasn't enjoying his experience. He said that the sense of community, the sense of speaking to other people in the community, social interactions, were just not the same as he experienced in other countries, he came from Dubai. So there's this false sense of image they get of Canada when they look at social media. And then also many mentioned that Canada has changed, so from pre COVID Canada to post COVID, and participants said that they heard from friends and family that it was actually easier to settle in Canada before COVID or before 20 18. But post COVID has just become so difficult. One of them actually said how his relatives would call him from Nepal now and ask him to help get their children to Canada. And he says he just really can't do that anymore because it's so difficult here.

The culture of migration among Nepalis

marty 13:30

Was there anything that people told you that really surprised you, that you just weren't expecting?

Richa Shivakoti 13:38

I was surprised by the fact that the culture of migration in itself has increased so much for the Nepali population. Migration is such a constant factor now, and it is talked about, you know, with friends and family, especially with the use of social media, they're constantly talking to these friends and family in different parts of the world, right. So they're comparing these destinations, making their own kind of opinions based on this information triangulation that they're doing through various sources. And then they're making decisions based on what they see and hear. So there's obviously the official information that you can find through immigration channels but for Nepal, I think social media, but also consultancies, immigration consultancies, are so strong so they're using all kinds of networks to get information about any country that they're trying to go. Different migrants are still facing challenges, even though they are having all kinds of information. And I think especially for the low skilled migrant workers who are paying a lot of money to recruitment agencies and there's a lot of intermediaries that kind of are involved, you could see that. So yeah, it's interesting because all segments of the population, not just the wealthy and educated, but people going for lower paid jobs and everything, this culture of migration is very present in Nepal. Another thing that jumped out for us is the general sense of frustration with the long-term political and economic environment in the country. So there was a lot of dissatisfaction that people shared with us on why people decided to migrate or why in some ways they were almost forced to migrate because they just could not envision a future for themselves or their kids in Nepal right. So it's a little sad in that way. Again, this is the same for different classes in Nepal, and I've done interviews with labour migrant workers in the Gulf or domestic workers in the Gulf and they all also share this. And I think what we saw with the recent Gen Z protest in Nepal is telling us that there's a general sense of dissatisfaction and frustration within the country at large.

Deepa Nagari 15:58

One of the things that surprised me was that a lot of the participants mentioned how migration or moving is human nature. So despite all the challenges they faced, when we asked them, Why did you decide to move? And they did mention like political, civil, economic reasons, but they also said that moving and migrating was just something that humans do. And a lot of them also said that they may continue to move in the future and that Canada might not be their permanent place of residence as well.

marty 16:28

I got the sense talking to, especially young people, that some of them were moving in part to have an experience. Of course, they wanted to do better socioeconomically, but it was also just a chance to be somewhere else and to live somewhere else. That phrase culture of migration. Seems so apt because it's just everywhere in Nepal. and I've lived there and on since 2005 and spent a lot of time in Dillibazar area, where there are a lot of migration consultancies, and they have just... I bet you the number(of offices) has at least tripled in that time. So within the culture of migration, when everyone is talking about it and in many cases preparing for it, did you get a sense that there was a proportion of people who were negative about migration? Did they talk about someone in their family saying, Well, why are you going now? Wait. Or Don't go at all, or, I stayed behind, you can stay behind too.

Deepa Nagari 17:29

Maybe I'll just say that there was like a sadness amongst most of the people that we mentioned. Yes, there were some that were very, very happy to migrate, but a lot of them really, really love Nepal and loved being there. And some of them did mention like a profound sadness at leaving their country. Like a lot of them said Nobody wants to leave, we didn't wanna leave, but we had to because of these different things.

Richa Shivakoti 17:54

When we study migration, there's this often, like this dichotomy whether migration was forced or it was voluntary, right. And I think when we think about forced migration, we only, you know, usually talk about refugees and really severe stresses that force people out, but in Nepal and other countries sometimes people feel they're forced to leave, because they couldn't see this long-term future, right, because they want something better in their life for themselves and their children. Even though most of the people that we talked to were the urban, the educated, the middle class or upper middle class and in general, they said life wasn't that bad in Nepal, you know, so it was not like, It was terrible and I had to leave. It was like, It was okay, I had my family, friends and, you know, my whole life was there. But I had to make this decision because I had to think about my future, I had to think about the future of my children. So I think that sadness that Deepa just talked about is profound when we think about migration decisions that people really have to make.

marty 19:04

You kind of touched on this in the paper itself, but what was it that made you think now's the time to look into this Nepali community that has been in Canada for a while, and as you said, is obviously growing very quickly.

Richa Shivakoti 19:19

I'd have to acknowledge that this project kind of started because it's a part of a larger research project called Memo. It's a six year project, but it looks at internal migration, inter-regional migration, and intercontinental migration flows, from South Asia and Southeast Asia, from West Africa, and the Americas. For Nepali migrants, in this research we're looking at cross border migration from Nepal to India. For inter-regional migration we're looking at migration from Nepal to Malaysia and Intercontinental migration from Nepal to Canada. What we're doing is one part of this larger research but you know, this kind of longer term larger project really allows us to look at the different migration corridors from Nepal and other countries. And for us to be able to learn from our partners in other parts of the world. And this. Specific aim of this research is to kind of bring all of this together so we can see a larger picture in terms of the diversity of migration drivers and flows from different parts of the world, right. Secondly, this project now because there hasn't been much research done on Nepalese and even though we are a smaller subgroup that is often overshadowed by a larger South Asian group, it is an important group within Canada that is growing. in the past there really has not been many research on this population, so this was a good time for us to kind of bring some information out for our working paper.

Nepalis and other South Asian diaspora groups

Deepa Nagari 20:50

I think there's also the importance of focusing on south Asian subgroups and understanding the migration drivers of these groups in a post pandemic world. So things like, what has changed? What is the same? What are some things that are unique to Nepali migrants? And like Richa said, the South Asian groups are oftentimes lumped together in research, with the Indian group being the largest because they have the largest presence here, and therefore I think it's important to focus on a specific subgroup. And a lot of the participants also said We are distinct. Sometimes we get lumped into with other south Asian groups by Canadians. And so it was nice for them to have something that focused just on their experiences and their drivers.

marty 21:36

How would you compare the Nepali diaspora in Canada to other South Asian groups?

Deepa Nagari 21:42

As you said, the Nepali immigrants are a diaspora that's growing and they have networks forming in Canada. And I guess another interesting thing about the study is we thought that the GTA in Toronto would have the highest concentration of Nepali immigrants for our study, considering that these are the cities of the highest immigrant population and also the highest South Asian population. But we actually found that there was a growing and very vibrant community in Ottawa that was very, very vocal. We also as part of the project interviewed stakeholders who work in community organizations or cultural centres or are engaged in the Nepali community. And one of them who lived in Ottawa, confirmed that numbers of Nepalis in Canada has increased, and there's also like a shift in the demographics from highly skilled migrants towards actually more families, who are having diverse skills and are making roots here with their children as well. And one stakeholder specifically compared the other South Asian migrants, such as Indians, who have established roots in Canada since the sixties and seventies, but that Nepali migrants are actually building their networks here, and he expects to see like a similar process in this community as well.

marty 22:55

Being here in Canada, we know that the Government of Canada has made changes recently to immigration numbers. This obviously affects Nepalis. Do you think those changes will turn off Nepalis from considering Canada as they have been recently, even if maybe in the future the numbers again are allowed to go up?

Richa Shivakoti 23:17

This summer while I was in Nepal, I did interview some education, immigration consultants who were sending students to Nepal from Canada. And they have recognized a definite shift in terms of Canadian policy. So they expressed that there was an window of opportunity for a while for international students to come to Canada when it was a easier access to visas and admission to universities or colleges. But they recognize that that has now ended. So it was interesting that they understand that policy shift that is happening in Canada and you can sense that there is now a distinct shift away from Canada because the consultants are no longer promoting it as a great destination for students and now are changing the direction completely, going back to countries like Australia for student migration. I think the Canadian government will realize that you can't just turn on and turn off migration like a switch. Migrants are, as we talked about, continually weighing their options, and they're using a great deal of agency in determining their best options. So for Nepali students, at least, I think there is going to be a distinct shift from Canada for a while. It was also interesting because the consultants also said, we sent all these immigrants and it was kind of a new destination for many of the immigrant consultants too. And then they realized students were having such a hard time, especially for accommodation they were crammed into basements, you know, and that came back to them, people complaining and all of that. So then they had to kind of, I think, also take a step back and think that, Okay, maybe it is not such a great destination that we thought it was because so many students were really struggling.

Deepa Nagari 25:10

In terms of this study we did ask participants about future directions. And some of them did say that if they lose their job tomorrow, or if they cannot renew their work permit, or if policy changes drastically, that they will leave Canada, they have to leave Canada. They do understand that and they have that consciousness within them as well. And then some of the participants and the stakeholders we spoke to again also mentioned that they were recommending people in Nepal not to migrate to Canada without a stable job, some type of income or substantial savings. And this is also specific to students as well, which again goes back to how Canada's changed and the economic difficulties being faced here, as well as the policy changes towards immigration.

marty 25:54

That must also, for some of these people, be a bit of a burden, having that in the back of your mind that this could happen and you, you need to be kind of prepared to maybe make a move. Okay Deepa and Richa, thank you very much for speaking to me today about your work and about Nepali migrants in Canada. It's been very interesting and given me some ideas for follow up. So thanks again and best of luck in your future work.

Deepa Nagari 26:20

Thank you! Thanks for having us.

Richa Shivakoti 26:21

Thank you Marty! Thank you for having us.

marty logan 26:22

Thanks again to Deepa Nagari and Richa Shivakoti for sharing their time and thoughts with me. if you'd like to hear more of these conversations, you can support the work that I do on Nepal Now by clicking on the link called Support the Show, near the bottom of the episode notes. Send me feedback at nepalnowpod(at)gmail.com or text us by clicking on Send Us Fan Mail at the top of the episode notes. I'll talk to you next time.