SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome everybody to episode seven of the Who Am I podcast with me, Paul Garragan and my partner Carly Skelly. So today we are going to be talking about something that for me is quite crazy that's out in the world and I watched a programme a couple of weeks ago called Inside the Manosphere. So we're going to be talking about that today, which for me is a element of masculinity that is drawing in vulnerable men to step into purpose, to step into domination, to step into sexualization of women. And they are selling it as a product and a program that is misleading, it's misguided, and it is not complete masculinity, and it is unhealthy and toxic. So after watching it a few weeks ago, myself and Carly were speaking around bringing this topic onto our podcast and sharing a little bit about what we think and feel about this type of masculinity. So, Carly, let's dive straight into it in terms of um, you know, the manosphere, in terms of what happened when you watch the programme and what you think about this type of masculinity.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Yeah, I don't think I've heard as such that word, the manosphere, since until the documentary or the series.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

And but now looking into it, I'm seeing that that's been like something that's been going on for a long time. So I actually just kind of like research what's the actual meaning, because there'll be a lot of people that'll be in the same position as me that mightn't have understood what that meant. So I just want to read out like what it kind of is, like defining what it is so that people do understand it. Because people might think, I don't know what that concept means, but then they'll fully get it when it kind of reads out because it is so so like alive right now in the world. So what is the manosphere really? Online spaces, really, where men discuss identity, relations, uh, relationships and self-improvement, but it's often through a male-centric lens and very controversial. It's things that exist, like on the likes of YouTube, TikTok, podcasts, and we're seeing how a lot of our younger generations are learning life and and finding meaning in the world on social media and on these kinds of online resources. The emphasis is all really about status, about money and sexual strategy.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

So I don't know what came up for you when you were watching that programme, but I know for me before I'd even watch that programme, like this sort of um Andrew Tate like mentality in terms of it's quite um you know, it's quite brutal in terms of how they look at women. Um the views on women, it's quite patriarchal, um, it's very status-driven, like you say, it's about money, it sounds like quite toxic. Now, that are parts of what they say in terms of men are struggling right now in the world. You know, men are being made to feel um weak in ways men have it seems in some capacity feel disempowered in the world. We only have to look at what's going on with mental health with men, with suicide and these type of things. So there is a problem that they're talking to with this type of man, but the way in which they're doing it for me is deeply disturbing after watching that programme in terms of some of the men that were on it, how they were talking about women, um, mainly, um, and you know, the actual reach that they've got in the world to some of these younger men. I think there was one of them on it called H. Is his name, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

English one, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Yeah. And I think he had a fight in it. He was talking about um his girlfriend, about sex, about how they misuse these things. Um, and when we look deeper into his upbringing and his background, like I know a lot of the men on there, they've had issues growing up with their own father, or they come from broken homes, and they've got this maybe fracture view of what it means to be a man in the world that isn't complete. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I feel like when I first watched it, I can't even lie, I felt quite disgusted and quite scared. Um because obviously I work with young people and I work with young boys, and I'm seeing a lot of young people lacking healthy role models. It's something I speak about. Having a good role model, it's going to set you up good for life because you're learning the right way, the healthy way. Now, when people don't have this healthy role model or a male role model, because I'm a big believer that women need good women around them and boys need good men around them because I can't teach a boy like I'm a mother of two boys, I can't teach them how to be a man. I can teach them good things in life, but I can't teach them to be a man because that's not what I am. So I feel like there's a lot of young kids in the world right now that are lacking that male role model, and I see it a lot. Like we live in Liverpool, and it's probably across the board, there's a lot of broken families away from a lot of young kids that pay their parents are in jail, their dads are in jail. Now, when they've got that void, which it is, it's a void, there's an emptiness there. These then, they're their next kind of like role model. Unfortunately, if they were sitting there on TikTok and Instagram and watching YouTube, they're finding these toxic, vile, vile men, that isn't another word for them. In fact, there is this wounded little boys. I don't even think we can call some of these men. The wounded little boys that haven't been able to find healthy support in that void in their own lives. And yeah, it is terrifying it terrifies me because young men are gonna learn from little boys, so we're gonna see this ripple.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

I suppose that's what a lot of us as men grow up with that maybe conditioning and belief that we need money, we need women, and we need external success in order to be a man. And I think they pry on that maybe that vulnerability that in which is deeply, deeply encoded within men of your life that that we're always seeking things in the external world, and to be successful means that we must have money, we must have cars, we must have women. Um and something that you you know you're mentioning is in terms of obviously the childhoods that that a lot of men, including myself, including the men that I work with, have maybe been through in terms of you know, the father might have been present, the father might not have been present, the father mightn't have been alive, the father might have been in jail, um, the father might have been there, but he was emotionally not present. Like what this sort of way of operating in the world as a man says to me, it's it's very head-centred, it's very disconnected from the heart, it's very abusive and dominating in the world. They're trying to dominate every situation, they're trying to dominate women. I mean, I've got some of the quotes down here that we looked at that Andrew Tatus said, um, saying that I think that women belong to the man. I think women are meant to lead, uh, are not meant to lead, they're meant to follow. Females are the ultimate status symbol, and you can't be responsible for a woman that doesn't obey you. Um and the last one was an 18 to 19-year-old woman, women are more attractive, they've been through less. So these are some of the maybe womb-based beliefs, if you like, and this is like the lens that these type of men are are looking through.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

And I want to go back to something you said to the very beginning, then obviously there is there is a struggle with men at the minute, and and and maybe some of the stuff, and I say this carefully, some of the stuff that some of these men say I can understand to an element that men go out and get it, and and and we have our roles as man and woman, although that's changed with evolution. But because of this like old paradigm of like the way men speak of and and treat women, this causes more crisis than in women because we like as you've just said, there's an epidemic of mental health and it's massive in men at the minute, like there's a big, big kind of like push to to for men to speak. There's like a lot of advocates of men, like you know, telling them it's okay to be vulnerable to talk. And I understand it, it's neat, it's needed, but how I I just want to make it very aware that there is a massive issue going on with women as well. And when men are becoming unhealthy, thinking that they're striving, you know, you're Andrew Tate type people who are pushing that way, that then has a byproduct on women being more abused and feeling more or less herself and only enough if she is. So I feel like the whole situation really has an impact on not just men, but men, women and children. And we're seeing this really now expand to a societal and a problem against all people.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Is this though the male answer to feminism? So what's been pushed down men's throats for a long time for the past maybe 10, 20, 30 years of the rise of feminism in the in the country or in the world, of the empowerment of women, but at the sometimes the breakdown of men and this empowerment of like, you know, female power, women power, um, you know, men are from Mars, women are from Venus, or you know, all these types of like like you'll have been aware of, like maybe toxic feminism. Yeah, if you like that's driving masculinity down and trying to push men down. And I'm not against by any means women being empowered, but I believe we should be both empowering one another. It shouldn't be we shouldn't be trying to pull another each other down or disregard the roles of one another, whether you know whatever you want to go and do in the world. But is the manosphere sort of are they trying to create an a sort of alternative for the man that is struggling because of the feminist movement? Because a lot of men in the world right now are feeling castrated, they are feeling purposeless, they are feeling like they you know they haven't got a place in the world. We're more disconnected than ever, we're in jobs that we hate. Testosterone levels are dropping, you know, they're at an all-time low. Relationships are breaking down now more than ever. You know, it's so easy and accessible for men to go and watch porn and all these different things that they don't need to go and seek a relationship anymore. And on top of that, obviously, you know, the feminist movement that that you know for me has maybe for a lot of these type of men has driven them to sort of show the wounds of masculinity and try to be an answer to something that um you know maybe could have been done in a lot smoother of a way if the men that were doing it and leading it were more conscious.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

So two things firstly, I think it's a really, really good point. And I as soon as you said it, I did think so. When you said is this just kind of like the the I don't know what word you said, but the response to the feminist movement. So first the first point is I think that's a very interesting point because feminism and the movement has become so toxic and so unhealthy that we only have to look at things like, you know, relationships breaking down, women having control and power over the kids, men not being able to see their own kids. That's just like a little, little kind of like thing of like the control that women can have and feeling like you know, we have so much power as a woman to where we're using it and we're abusing it. Um there's a lot of there's a lot of ways where the feminist movement has become really unhealthy and toxic. However, two wrongs don't make a right, but are people consciously like stepping into this or again? Because we only have to look at it, and this is where I said it it can get interesting because I don't want to go deep into any any rabbit holes, but we only have to look at where the feminist movement was funded by. Yeah, okay, I think it was like in the 1970s, the um is it the Rockefellers or the yeah, the Rockefellers were actually a big funder into the feminist movement. So again, that just goes deep into one story that I'm not gonna touch upon today, but we're seeing that maybe things are being funded and kind of manipulated to suit a narrative to cause more dis ease within the world.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

And that's something they spoke about on the um on the programme now as well, wasn't it? That sort of like they did speak a little about a bit about conspiracy theories and that the world is trying to weaken men. Now, again, we only really I do actually believe that is true in terms of maybe the powers that be in the world. I do think men are, you know, we're maybe moving the body less than we've ever done, we're not having to go out and hunt food and gather and and do the things that we used to do. Um, you know, the pubs are shutting down now more than ever. Like men are really, really seeking sort of brotherhood and connection. Like there's a there's an element of crisis, I would say, happening with men and masculinity. Like there is, I do believe in the world, like there is maybe an attack on the family unit, there is an attack on masculinity, there's an attack on femininity, like women aren't being made to feel good enough to to maybe unless they're out in business and starving and and being like men in the world and pushing and pushing and pushing. Um, and then we're seeing, you know, how kids are struggling now more than ever because both parents are at work. Um, you know, we've got relationships that are breaking down more than ever because maybe man and woman aren't meeting eye to eye because they're both out there in the world starving and pushing hard as much as they can. Um both parents are paying tax. You know, there is for me a bigger picture of things that are going on. Again, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole of it, nor do I know the rabbit hole of it. I'm not interested in it. I'm interested in what I can control in the world and what I can influence. Um, but you would definitely have to say, Carly, that there is sort of some sort of attack going on, and I have to agree with the part of Manosphere that says that that is happening. I do believe that men are being weakened. I do believe that men right now are at their most vulnerable, and that's why a lot of men are, you know, unfortunately struggling, unfortunately, you know, having struggles with mental health. I do believe that's why relationships are breaking down, and I do believe that's why a lot of men are taking their own life because of the stress and the strain and the the loss of identity of what it is to be a man.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Yeah, definitely. I think it's it's it's so complex. It's really, really complex. Um, and what I was gonna say to you when I spoke before was do you feel like because of all of this that is going on, because of this like dysfunction in the masculine role, the feminine role, and the family breakdowns and all of that? Do you feel because of all of this that the likes of these influencers or YouTubers or these men who are, you know, who are making like a lot of money and and getting a lot of lot of like exposure? Do you feel like a lot of people are really looking up to those because of the dysfunction that you know the world is is offering?

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Yeah, and I think because a lot of men, and these men in particular, a lot of them have been misguided by the men in their lives. Some of them didn't, like them the men who are these influencers didn't have male role models. Um they mightn't have had the father present, like I said before, the views on what um success means. Like, you know, I work with men personally who are super, super successful, but yet there's this internal void of emptiness that's going on inside of them. They've got the partner, they've got the kids, they've got the money, they've got the cars, they've got the holidays, they've got the house. There's still something missing within these men. Um I do think that they are preying on, like I've said before, they are preying on the vulnerability that is happening within men and within masculinity. Rightly show there is a vulnerability there. You know, they're not they're not wrong in what they're trying to fix or what they're trying to correct, but the viewpoints and how they're trying to do it. And for me, I can't see beyond. You know, I can look at the lack of identity, I can look at the lack of purpose, I can look at the lack of brotherhood, and that's something that I work with men on specifically, but not to the domination of women, not to the abuse of women. Um, you know, some of the if you watch the programme.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

So can I just I I've got some quote here that I wanted to to kind of like touch upon. So Myron Grains, sorry, Myron Gaines. Yeah, I was disgusted in his whole approach, his views, his perceptions, like everything about him was toxic. He was the one that's at the podcast, he was an American fella, he's got a podcast, and some some quotes coming from him. So this is from his podcast. This is one of them that he's speaking to a woman. He says to her that you're huge, you're not attractive, and you're an embarrassment to society. And when he's actually speaking to the women on the podcast, they just kind of like sit and laugh it off, or they don't really speak off of themselves. Um, another one. You lit literally have a a vagina and titties, and basically that is your only response and and and worth to the world. So we again it's this objectification, like without being an object, we're nothing. We're useful for nothing but to appease men. I think that was, yeah, that was and I understand them. So I know what's best for them. Again, it's this control element.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

I think the challenge what he's saying though, I think number one is how can we as men understand a woman when we're not a woman? So therefore that that viewpoint's completely flawed.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Yeah. Like I just said at the very beginning, I can't teach my sons how to be a man because I'm not a man. So how can he understand a woman better? He's not a woman.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Yeah, yeah. And what was the second quote you said?

SPEAKER_02 17:22

The second one that he said was, well, the first is about you're huge, you're not attractive, and we're an embarrassment to society, which does have an impact on young girls' mental health. So you were speaking then, and instantly as you were speaking, the first thing that came into my head was because you were talking about success and everyone's striving for this success. I work with young people, majority are boys, but I do work with boys and girls, and I always ask them about what it is they want out of life, in in a job perspective, maybe, and a lot of the time they don't know. So I always ask the next question, do you want to be successful? And they're like, Yeah, of course. But I'm like, okay, so what does success mean? Because we need to understand what success is if we're going to be able to go and get that in life, and always for boys it is a car, money. Um it's all it's all of these external.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Women will be in there for sure. They might not say it at a young age, but it will be.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

It's it's literally money, boss car, travel, and like be able to go everywhere. And even some of them say like holidays, i beefer, all of these kinds of statements.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Dubai is another one, like a lot of them say. And then with the girls, they quite often say, um, I want to like have a nice family, like a nice husband, and like nice kids and all be happy and healthy. Now, that is a belief system. So you've spoken a little bit about the belief system of men of men have been conditioned from a young age to feel like they've got to go and get them not just on the bedpost, they've got to do all of these things, rightly so. If that's the way they're brought up, how do they know any different? But for girls, we we feel if we don't get married and have this family that we're wrong, we're we're not good enough. So, you know, I feel like that's a big driving force as to why women are always, you know, trying to look a certain way and be a certain way. Because we're always trying to appease other people. We're never just being who we truly are as a woman, because the world hasn't provided that opportunity for us. So every woman is like got this. Well, I say, sorry, I shouldn't say every woman, a lot of women have got this story of I'm only enough if X, Y, and Z. If I look a certain way, if I meet the right man, if I have the house of the white picket fence, but without all of that, I'm a failure. And when we think we're a failure, mental health comes into question and and then we have our own issues, then.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yeah. So the the way men, if you like, on what I what I touched on a little earlier, is we as men, I feel, and a lot of men, and I can't say every man again, but I believe like within the condition of Liverpool or within the condition of the of the world, you know, I would like to see what the stats are of every woman. If you like, that's a man, even on say a night out or when they're younger, that is tried to be maybe manipulated sexually by a man in some way, just so a man can go and tell his mate a story, just so a man can say I've done, I've had sex with this woman, just so a man can can take away something to gratify and um you know his own ego. If you like, I I believe that that is something that's deeply encoded within men. And it's something that again I see I seeing a lot when I was younger. It's something that I still see a lot now. And something I always say is the way we're raised and the way we treat women when we're younger, if somebody's to treat our mother like that, and if somebody's to treat our sister like that, would we be okay with it? But yet we're okay with saying X, Y, and Z about this woman or that woman or have done this or have done that, and treating and speaking down to women in some way, but when it comes to our own family, we'll step in and protect. And that's got to be the biggest contradiction that I've ever heard. Yeah. That we'll something we'll treat women ourselves this way, but if somebody treats the woman in my life in terms of my daughter or my mum in that way, that's not okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

It's something I highlight with a lot of the young boys I work with because I hear them saying things that aren't okay. And as soon as I put it in that way, they're like, I'd be like, I bet you'd you'd want to fill them in. Because I'm I'll talk to them and like I'll get on with them and say, like, if somebody was to speak to your mum or your sister in this way, you'd want to fill them in, wouldn't you? And you'd be like, Yeah, of course I would. So I was like, Well, let's like, let's lose the arrogance. Like, what makes you any different to be able to do it? So, you know, it is, it's like it's a naivety, it's an arrogance that is being instilled within young people. But I just want to touch about what you were saying then about like, you know, when girls do go out and they're constantly like harmed and harassed. I work with a few organisations that work with women who have been through sexual abuse, rape, and domestic violence. Now, I think people think sexual assault has to be rape alone. It it it goes on so many levels, it's being spoken to. In you know, in ways that feel intimidating and comfort uncomfortable, it's being pressured to sleep with someone and doing it just because you you are fearful of saying no. The whole sexual assault is more complex than just that initial kind of like incident. And I feel like young boys need to be educated on this.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Yeah, they probably don't know the lines of sexual boundaries and what's okay and what's not okay because we've seen it growing up, we've seen it in I've seen it around me, um, where men are overstepping these lines and doing certain things and grooming and manipulating women into certain situations to get what they want met, if you like, and to make fun of it.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Yeah, it's it's it's massive.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

And for men, men are given a high five and a well-done auntie off the lads, but for a woman you're called a slag, you know, or you mate skit you, or a lad skit you, or you're made to be like this bad bad person.

unknown 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Which then fits into that whole dynamic, isn't it? If a girl feels like, you know, everyone thinks I'm a slag, she's going to feel really vulnerable, and then she's going to be more less sure of herself and fall into the arms of maybe these predators that are out there. So it just sets people up for the spiral, spiral loop of trauma.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

And then I think at the root of a lot of all this type of stuff, and what we're seeing with feminism, and maybe the inflated or toxic side to it, and then when we're looking at the same for manosphere and the extremist side of it, um, at the root of what's driving this behaviour, yes, we know things are happening in the system, but you know, at the root of it is how we choose to show up as men and as women in the world, and what we can do about showing up differently, about you know, us doing our own for me, our own inner healing work. And that means that we must understand our own emotional world. And when you were watching this program and looking at how some of these men were operating, you can quite clearly see how disconnected they are from their own heart space, how disconnected they are from their own body. You know, they're only living in the head or in the balls, they've got no connection to the body whatsoever, or any connection to the heart space because of how they're operating, how they're showing up in the world, and maybe like the trauma wounding that they've got in their own life. And you know, you'd have to say for some of them and how they're showing up with misogyny and how they're showing up in their own relationships, there's got to be a lot of like complex trauma relationship issues that have gone on in their lives.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

So, can I ask a question now then? Knowing that maybe some of these, you know, unhealthy men are wired and where you know the root is deeper than you know them just being toxic. It's it's came from a story, whether it's an absent father, whether it's been being around abuse, whether it's been from just dysfunctional patterns in the family, and they are only you know, they're up here, they're down there, but they're not here. Can you can you have compassion when you watched that show? Did you feel like you know you know what led them to become a yeah, or you know, what did you actually feel? Just curious to see as a yeah, how you perceived and and and tough.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

I think there was parts of me that felt quite angry, like how misguided it was because I do a lot of work with men and a lot of the work that I do will be to help men with the purpose, will is to create brotherhood, is to get men out of isolation and is to help them reach the full potential. But in order to do that, I don't want them to run the world over. It's no good being successful if you're the only man left on the earth. Yeah. Um so for me, you know, a lot of the work I do is about getting men back into the body, getting men connected to the heart space, getting men to show up better in the relationships, because let's have it right, we've never been shown how to show up properly with a woman. Um, you know, we look at our own fathers in uh in uh in the relationship, certainly with my dad, with my own mum. Did I see healthy, you know, conflict, if you like? Did I see conscious communication happening? Probably not. I could probably say the same to you in your house. Did you see that? And again, you probably say no. Did most of us in our age group and in our sort of generation see healthy communication, healthy boundaries, healthy makeup making making up when there's maybe been arguments, you know, healthy disagreements, have healthy connection and healthy days out and family days? Probably not. So for me, I think you know, we're learning on the job, all of us men and women, we're learning to try and deal with the wounds that we've got ourselves, we're learning to relate better to our partner. Um, but watching that programme, I'd have to say, yeah, you know, there was look that I was a bit angry, I was frustrated watching it that the viewpoint in the world is is still the way it is. You know, I couldn't respect a lot of what they were talking about or a lot of the views because it's completely, you know, womb-based and misguided to what I'm seeing. It's not, they're not, we're not talking about men who are conscious men here when we're looking at this. We're talking about unconscious men who are driven from, I would say, the darker side of masculinity, which is very savage style-based, it's very David Goggins-like mentality. It's push, push, push, drive, drive, drive, go, go, go. Do as much as you possibly can. Dog eat dog. No fuck the bitches. It's all like bro science, bro talk, um, you know, high fives for grabbing as many women and having sex with as many women as you can for and having a million pounds in the bank. Like it's all this toxic, toxic culture that's driving, you know, a lot of these younger people to even follow them. So I can be compassionate and understanding, but I also think some of these men need to slap across the chops to be around real men, spend time with some real men, like come and do a retreat with me, go and do retreats with some of the men in the world, some of the incredible men who are doing the deeper work to undo a lot of what these unconscious fools are teaching in the world. Like they should come and spend some time with real men doing real work, you know, addressing the roots, the vulnerabilities, the way the pains, the wounds that they've got, the fact that the mum and dad split up, the fact that the dad wasn't there for them. They come and address these type of things, and then they can go on into the world and help other men, but not have to do in such a misguided and toxic way. Because it's just any any sort of um movement, if you like, any sort of movement or cult that's trying to push down other people in the process, whether that's women, whether that's men, whether that's different sexualities, whatever that is, that can't be hard-centred at base, at the base of it and at the root of it. So if anything for me, if you ever are going to do any men's work or you're looking for your man to do any men's work or even going to do any women's work, make sure it's hard-centered, that it's not making everybody else wrong, and that it is centred around empowering you as a man, as a woman, as a father, as a son, you know, as a wife, you know, make sure that we we become the empowered person within that dynamic because we do become a product of the people we put ourselves around and the product of our environment. And I know you know all this, but it's it's important for me that men in particular come back to the hard speech because I do believe a lot of what's happening in the world is because a lot of men are struggling to know what masculinity means. A lot of men don't know how to lead, a lot of men don't know how to emotionally feel or connect. I think men do need to be tough, but they equally need to be soft. I think men do have to lead, but we also have to be led. I think men do have to, you know, show up with vigour, but we also have to show up with emotion and raw vulnerability because we're looking at the yin and the yang. We need to be both. We can't just be all yang all the time and go, go, go and push, push, push, because look at what that's done to the present state of masculinity. And I think in the programme they were talking about trying to be mates with Donald Trump. And we're looking at Donald Trump and what he's doing to the world, like that to me is a wounded man leading one of the most powerful countries in the world, and they've just gone in and absolutely you know tried to obliterate Iran, and they've caused chaos in the region without a plan of what they're doing, and it's just disrupting the lives of all of us, and we could go into the conspiracy theories of why that's happening, but at the end of the day, we've got an absolute fool, trigger-happy fool, who's maybe a very wounded man who's leading one of the most powerful countries in the world.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

To bring in that obviously, like you're speaking as well, being a man who does men's work, so you're speaking a lot from that angle. Do you feel because I know we've had conversations about the movement in femininity and the evolution and how women are becoming very more able, more capable, less in need of a man, very more physical. So, you know, we only have to look at how many women now find exercise like a high, high priority, a lot of strength type of exercising, a lot of a lot of a lot of women's body shapes are looking a lot more in a masculine way. Like these are conversations that a lot of people are having behind the scenes, but a lot of people are scared to bring it to the forefront. So the point of why I'm saying this is do you feel like if men and young boys continue to follow this movement at this manosphere, that that is going to push women further away to their truth and become more masculine? Because, you know, if if that's what the men are around us, the toxic, the the misogynists and and the and the the vile, like is that gonna have a big, big issue on relationships and and and families and and and that kind of element? Like what what do you think on that?

SPEAKER_00 31:19

I mean, is the fact that women are so driven now in the gym so much now, you know, like you mentioned maybe about certain body types of women now, in terms of maybe looking more muscular, is that driven from the fact of men being unsafe to be around, of women have to step into a more masculine role within their own life that they're having to really, you know, toughen up if you're like they're having to be stronger.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Um I think it was around the 60s, 70s potentially. I think in the 60s there was laws that men were still actually allowed to like hit their wives. There was just like there was rules around like the timings that it had to be, and you know, if it was going to be with like a stick or whatever, it couldn't be bigger than the fun. Like these were all kinds of things. And then even like, you know, stra uh rape like in in a in a marriage, that only became like uh a law that it wasn't okay for a man to a woman to say like no to her husband. Like that was only in the 70s. So I get it, a lot of women have built this kind of like response to be thinking, I'm not safe unless I'm you know I'm strong within myself. But it's quite sad, isn't it, really? Because it it's messing with the natural dynamic, then the natural flow.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Yeah, it's almost as if women have had to adopt these tools, maybe, is what you're saying. To because of maybe the um the wound, and that's taking place within you know marriages or relationships, how women have been treated for you know hundreds of years, if you like. Maybe beaten, abused, overpowered, you know, um made to do things they didn't want to do, have to fit into a sort of societal role that that they were told that they had to play. Um, and then we look at maybe religion, elements of religion and sort of no sex before marriage, and and you know, all these type of rules and things that were put in place and women were shamed if they were to ever do, if you like, you know, are we seeing maybe the you know the inflation if you like of some of these wounds and maybe the suppression of what's been suppressed for such a long time from you know or two women? Are we now seeing like the overspill of that coming out because they have been made to be maybe kept in a box for such a long time? Um are women having to, like I say, you know, are they having to be stronger, they're having to step up and and maybe be the try and be the father in the household and the mother, you know, the the working, the flat out relationships which you've mentioned earlier is you know have never broken down so much. So women have there's never been so many single women maybe with kids and raising kids on their own. Um who are also out there working in the world.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

And a lot of a lot of like couples that are out there that have now maybe intention of like having a family as well. Like there's a lot of people that and again I think maybe that's just because the world, the way the world is now, like to bring new life into the world, like it it's very complex.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Yeah, like sort of you're saying that there's a lot of people aren't having kids anymore, is what we're saying, yeah. So within relationships, they're not you know, people are feeling that maybe that the world isn't a place to have kids, or maybe you know, we're becoming more of a selfful or selfish um, you know, race, if you like, where where we're where where we're looking after us predominantly, is that survival-based? Like you wouldn't want to bring a kid into this world the way it is right now because is it dangerous, you know, is it uncertain, you know, with the rise of AI, with with what's going on and with wars, there's lots of different things. It it feels like it can be you can get lost to the fear quite easily in the world right now.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

And if that's kind of like where we're driven from, then it's showing that a lot of people are running from five flight, all of those responses of the nervous system, so there's not enough people walking around in this like natural state in the world, is that?

SPEAKER_00 35:04

No. And you'd have to say, you know, a saying that I use quite a bit is if we were to look after some flowers, me and you now, Carly, and we were looking after the flower and the flower was dying, yeah, whose fault is that if we were meant to be nurtured in the flower and the flower started to die? Is that the flower's fault or is that our fault?

SPEAKER_02 35:25

It's ours, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 35:26

If we're creating an environment for the flood for the for the flourishing and for the nourishing of our kids, if the system is creating, you know, the environment for the flourishing and the nourishing of the people, then we would all be reaching our full potential, wouldn't we? But there's something categorically off in terms of how we're being asked to live. We're not living in our nature, we're not living in tune with nature, we're living in the head, we're living from ego, we're living disconnected, no community, loads of people are trying to keep community right now, and there's you know, people trying to, you know, maybe you know, set up different things, you know, such as um, you know, like the retreats in awake and obviously the stuff that's going on in awake and stuff like that. People are starving for this sense of community. But if we're only having community maybe an hour a week, two hours a week, but we're on our phones all day, we're stuck behind the desk, we're not seeing our kids, we're not seeing our partner, we're always stressed, we're always burnt out, we're always thinking, you know, these devices have always got us thinking that we need to look at something. If we're always focusing on what's gonna happen in the future or what may have happened in the past, and we don't do the work to resolve some of this stuff, then for me, what is the future? What's gonna happen for us, for men, for masculinity, for women, for femininity in the world, we're gonna be controlled, we're gonna be easy to control, we're gonna be weak, you know, we're gonna be stressed, we're gonna be diseased, we're gonna become reliant on the systems, on the governments, on other people to be able to support us through this because I don't believe that no matter how much work I do on myself, if the systems and the power that be don't change on a collective level, and I do believe this is like collective trauma. If you like, this is collective trauma that we're in, that we keep repeating the same processes that aren't working. Like we've seen it with some of these like community initiatives, for example. You know, let's go and I don't know, do a bit of fitness with kids and then give them a CSCS card. Has that ever worked in order to get kids to stay in work? Has that ever worked? Will that ever work? No, because we're not addressing the root cause of what's going on with the child and we're not addressing the root cause of getting them to create a life that's going to set them up to go and do what they need to do. So there's for me, there is a societal problem, but we only need to look at, you know, we're not challenging the system enough. I think like oil prices and gas prices and something I speak to you about, petrol prices keep going up. Nobody's batting an island, like it's nearly a two-part to fill your car up, polite it or something like that. Like nobody's batting an eyelet, no one's doing nothing about it. Everyone's just home, oh yeah, okay. Nobody's doing nothing. You get told the COVID, everyone needs to wear a mask, nobody's doing nothing about it. Like we get we're getting told, I think we're going to Liverpool grant. Every time I go to Liverpool game, now you've got to get in there like an hour before because you're getting searched, going in the grants, nobody's saying nothing about it. Like, why why are we why is that happening? We're letting people violate our rights for our safety. Like we walk through a metal detector within the grant, that's all we need. If something's wrong, we get stopped, we get searched, and we deal with it. But we're being controlled, an element of for me of us is being controlled, and nobody is challenging the systems or the powers that be. We're just sort of nodding dogs and getting on with it. So we do believe we need strong men to rise, to stand up, to challenge these things, to challenge the electrical companies. I don't know how that looks, but it absolutely infuriates me that we seem to nobody is doing anything about it, and we're just accepting what we're giving and and taking what what the powers that be are doing to us.

unknown 38:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Went off on one there, didn't I?

SPEAKER_02 38:57

Yeah, I'm just sitting here thinking I do come back to that. Um what what do you feel going back to like the the film that we've been talking about, then the manosphere? Yeah, what do you feel the answer is because you've said to me that there's parts of what some of these men say that are true, that are important, but they obviously cloud it with a lot of bullshit as well, and a lot of shit, like like toxic stuff with it. What what's the answer? Because for my my concern is as much as you know you do incredible work, Paul, and help so many men, and my my aim is to try and hopefully do the same for women, and I know there's a lot of people out there, there's a lot of good you know, advocates who want to support and guide people to be the best that they can be. But how can we move forward when all of the younger generations, if you think about it now, are learning life through devices. This might slightly take us into devices a little bit now, but you know, we've we've got kids and we can see how how they you know they are easily addicted to the phones, and we have to really manage that. Otherwise, without us being there, they would be sitting there all day, TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, and what they're actually watching sometimes is is bullshit. It's it's a waste of time. So, you know, how can we change this this toxic masculine kind of I don't know, can't even get me the right word, but you know, we're teaching young men how to be men in really unhealthy ways, and unfortunately, young boys are looking up to these unhealthy men because they're so available, they're all over social media. Yeah, young boys mightn't have access to you because you know, maybe you haven't got the same follower, and some of these like Andrew Tater, they're the ones, they're they're they're massive, aren't they? Yeah, how do we stop young boys becoming the same, learning the same, you know, unhealthy messages when devices are such a such like a concern?

SPEAKER_00 41:03

I think we need obviously more men out there doing this type of work, but we need more fathers showing up as fathers. But again, this ties into the system. Like if if fathers are being made to go out there and grind and push, and they're maybe single now because they're not living with the mum, or they are living with the mum, but they're struggling because of the cost of living and all this type of stuff. Men are constantly pushing and starving and grinding, then how is that gonna affect the child when they're not getting time with the father, when they're not getting to go to the footy with the father, or they're not getting to go you know here or there, or spend time with the dad, or when they are with the dad, the dad's on his phone all the time. Like, what does that say to a young boy when your dad's on his phone all the time, every time he's trying to talk to you? It says that your phone's more important than me, that I'm not good enough, I'm not enough, because I'm not whatever's on that phone is more important, whatever you're looking at work's more important. So then we're teaching our kids, you know, it's monkey see monkey do. They see us on our phone all the time. What are they gonna do? I mean, how many times do we how many people have Sunday dinners anymore? How many people sit around the table anymore to eat food as a family and there's no devices? No, how many that used to happen every every day for us, maybe five years ago, and it doesn't so much anymore. And for a lot of other people, it probably does more than most, but it doesn't happen, does it? Like how many of us go to see our family, like the way we used to, like you'd always go and see your nuns, your granddads, your families, they come round, like it's sort of something that's that that's a dying thing for me.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

I seen a um there's a video of a doctor who's pushing in parliament now for the phones for the devices for social media to have some kind of um she was basically saying did you know like gambling's an addiction, but it's a behavioural addiction. She was saying that we need to have this now as a class addiction because it's a behavioural addiction, and we're seeing this addiction in, you know, very young people as well. So it's actually being pushed now in parliament by doctors, and obviously she reeled off the the, you know, the all the other byproducts. So with the addiction, it's like it it can cause issues with the eyes, it can cause issue with you know the emotional and mental um cognitive development and function. And it the list was like too long for it to fully go from. But again, like I said, this these are phones are becoming a behavioural addiction. And would you say this is part of the problem with the likes of this manosphere? Is because people are so able to find them and see them because of the devices and social media.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

If the devices weren't about, then you obviously wouldn't have manosphere doing what it's doing. But I think, you know, if you're ever tried to get your kid off the computer when you're when they're on like FIFA or what's the other game they used to play? Like, what are they like when you tried to get them off the device?

SPEAKER_02 43:41

Something I have to say, because as soon as you said that, like I felt like a trigger inside me instantly. I remember having a conversation with somebody saying, Oh, I just can't get them off. And I just think fucking bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

You can't get them off the computer.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

Yeah, get it's bullshit. You're the parents, like you've got a role. And I'm sorry, but I don't I don't really like that statement, or I just can't I just can't get them off. Yeah, you know, we've got a responsibility as a parent to actually put these boundaries in place for, you know, we're not always there to be our childmates and to be our friends. And in reality, if you look at what the role is as a parent, the parent isn't to always be involved in your child, it's to guide them till they come of age so that they can then go off into the world on the on their own. So your job is within that first 16 years to 18 years is to prep them ready for the real world. So that statement of like we can't get them off. But again, you know, it takes you deep into another conversation, doesn't it? So, like, well, two parents working, you haven't got eyes on them all the time. And again, this goes into the whole dysfunctional masculine, feminine polarity of like, because men and women now have to work. We haven't got that maybe support at home, so the kids are more likely to go onto these devices because they shouldn't be left on their own as long as they are, as young as they are, and in systems and schools that maybe you know aren't the best place for them. So, you know, for the for a lot of kids, these phones are their little outlet, they're they're they're they're they're runaway, they're they're escape for them, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Yeah, yeah. I think using you know what with anything, it comes down to balance. You know, how much you use your phone, how much you see your kids, how much time you're spending with your partner, how much time you're working. Like anything that we overdo in the world, and I say this knowing that I overdo in some areas, and I'm by no means the finished product, that the more we live in balance, the more we live in harmony, the more we live in equilibrium, the more we live in homeostasis. If we can't find an element of balance within what we're doing in the world, then that's gonna push us out of balance, and then we're gonna have feedback from our own immune system and from our own um you know stress levels and mental wellness or mental illness on how we're showing up in the world, and if we're mentally feeling ill or drained, there's something majorly out of balance with certain pillars in your life that you need to address, and one of them in particular that we see in a massive surgeon is obviously you know the use of devices, the use of phones, see it with your own kids, you know. We see it with ourselves if you like needing to get stuff done, needing to get everything complete before you finish, you know, maybe answering messages at nine o'clock at night, how that affects stress and how that affects burnout. Um but what I want to flip flip it back to you before we finish is um it's obviously bringing it back to manner's fear. It's how would you say as a woman, how does it make you feel seeing that type of programme with men out there in the world being like that and being a woman maybe who's been treated like that by men. How does that make you feel, like watching that type of man and watching, you know, some of this information that's being given to young men and how women are being treated and mistreated?

SPEAKER_02 46:50

I think my initial thing when I first saw it, I was like absolutely triggered and thought what vile, vile men that they were. And my second feeling was fear, fear that are, you know, like you said, I've been around very toxic men. And and I say boys, but I when I was a young girl, I was probably around boys and men, very toxic men who would have drug dealers, just you know, just vile, vile people who completely had the same kinds of viewpoints as these men in this Manisphere film. So I learned how to be a young girl around all of this toxicity. So my my mission has been for a long time to help women become the best they can be, regardless of what they've been through in their own lives. So to see that it's it's still out there to keep men in that way is really sad because how can we make change when it's been given such an opportunity and a space to to kind of like keep it going, keep men being in these unhealthy predators, these these unhealthy, domineering, toxic people. Like, how can we move past it when you have got social media and they're getting all of these like platforms to all of these young boys in the world? So it it terrifies me because I know because of this type of like thing that's happening, this manosphere, there's gonna be a lot more girls that are gonna get hurt. There's gonna be a lot more girls that get abused, and I work with women who've been abused, I work with young girls who've been abused. It's like, how can we put a stop to it when they're getting such an easy ride? It'd be like, you know, they're like superstars, some of them. Like they are like little superstars, and they think they're little superstars, like that Harris or Haddison Sullivan, the one who was like the British lad. He's over in was it Marbella, like living this life, thinking he's one of the boys, and the way he was speaking to the girls of like the um he manages girls who are on OnlyFans. And I just think like, wow, like he thinks he's like this little superstar, and people are treating him like he is, people are going up to them, like you see him on the show. People are going up to them, like you go up to like a superstar. Like, if I seen like you know, Mike Tyson, I'd be all over him, made up to see him. You know, he's achieved something in the world, he's boxed, he's come from nothing, and made an absolute incredible life from where he's come from. And then young boys have run to these men who have done what? Like, what have they done? And they're looking up to them, and they're looking up to them just because they've got a million or two followers and they think that the like people are famous now from YouTube and TikTok. Look, don't get me wrong, if you can make a life out of these things, good, if you can earn money from it, but make sure your messaging's right, like these men aren't messaging the right stuff to people. If you want to go and be famous, message it in a way to go near your money, be famous, but don't do it at the detriment of young people and people's mental health and people's emotional health. I I think you can see them just absolutely triggered by the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Yeah. So I'm obviously I'm just aware of time. I'm we're nearly done. So have you got any final words of what you'd say to any of these men? Have you seen them face to face? What would you say?

SPEAKER_02 50:07

Well, as an ex-professional boxer, I'd probably f flatten the lawyers. Um yeah, I'd like to um get in the ring with you and show you. But yeah, like if any of them did, you know, ever get to see this podcast, which is probably not likely, but you're vile and you're you're a danger to the world. Okay, and I hope they get the help because they are wounded little boys, they're not men. And equally, if any young people, young lads are watching this podcast, just just know like it's not the way forward, it's not the right way. And always try and put it back to yourself of if somebody treated your mum, your sister, your family members the way these men treat other people and are encouraging you to be, how would that make you feel? And if you know the answer is like not good, you know that it's not okay for it to not be done to your family, you know it's wrong. Because that's why I asked you that question before. Do you have any compassion towards them? Because we can say they're wounded and they've been through stuff and that's the way they are, but but at the same time, they're fully grown ass men, and it's like get do the work, mate, and do the work properly. Because once you get that name as an influencer, or you know, as a if you've got that kind of status, you become a role model, yeah, and then you impact the world. Make sure you'd impact the world in in in a good way.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Yeah, I was actually when we were watching it, I was thinking of some of the stuff they were saying. I was thinking, how is it even allowed?

SPEAKER_02 51:32

It takes me back.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

How is it even allowed to like without any prosecution? That it's they're allowed to maybe speak about women in that way, or they're allowed to do certain things in that way. How is it even allowed to happen that they're allowed to have them viewpoints so loudly and globally without anything being done about it?

SPEAKER_02 51:46

I remember when I was boxing, and and again, like there was a period because there was a boxer at the time, and I was boxing that started to really sexualise the sport.

unknown 51:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

And on weigh-ins, and since this like boxer, I think it was Ebony Bridges, she would like wear like really skimpy underwear for her weigh-ins. Okay, and again, she's made herself something from more of a her old image than her actual boxing skills. But what that does is I say to everybody, again, if you want to go and earn your millions one way or another, go for it. But when you're in the public eye on a big state at a big level, you become a role model. Do we want to be teaching young girls that it's okay if I get my body out, my tits out, that I'm gonna make it? Is that the right message? No. So it's it's it's a big thing for me, I feel like. If you've got status in this world, it has to be used in the right way because whether it has to be or not, you become a role model. People do look up to you when you've got a lot of followers on social media, people look up to you. So your messaging, your attitude, your behaviour has to be so right.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 52:51

Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Okay, so we're gonna wrap it up. Have we got any final words before we finish the show?

SPEAKER_02 52:58

No, no, no. I feel like I've just like went out of there for that last little bit.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Okay, thank you. So to everybody who's been listening, that's our thoughts any bit anyway on what's going on inside Manosphere. And if you've got any comments, if you'd like to share what how you found the podcast, or you'd like to find me or Carly, then please give us a follow on Instagram. For me, it's at Paul Garragon, at Coach Soddy Paul Garragon. And for Carly, what's yours?

SPEAKER_02 53:24

It's at Women's Packed.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

It's at Women's PAC. So thank you very much. P A C T at Women's Packed. So thank you very much for watching it, and I'll see you again soon, everyone.