The Who Am I Podcast - Episode 7

Episode 7 of the Who Am I Podcast 🎙️

In this episode, I sit down with Lokendra, an Isha Hatha Yoga Teacher who spent 8 years living inside the Sadhguru Ashram in India searching for deeper meaning and understanding of life.

What followed was one of the deepest and most honest conversations we’ve had on the podcast so far.

We spoke about masculinity, mental health, spirituality, relationships, purpose and why so many men still feel lost even when everything looks fine on the outside.

This episode is for the man who’s achieved things but still feels disconnected inside.
The man who’s tired of distractions, noise and chasing validation.
The man who knows there has to be more to life than just surviving and performing.

Topics we covered:
• Masculinity in today’s world  
• Spirituality and inner peace  
• Mental health and emotional struggles  
• Relationships and connection  
• Purpose and self realisation  
• Why external success doesn’t always create fulfilment  

This conversation will make you reflect differently on your life 🌿🔥



#podcast #menswork #selfrealisation #spirituality #mentalhealth #masculinity #innerwork #ishayoga #sadhguru #growth

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome everybody to episode six of the Who Am I podcast with me, Paul Gargan and my partner Carly. Today we've got a very special guest on indeed, and he is one of my closest brothers. He's been living in India for the last 10 years, is it? Yeah. Yeah, spending time in Sadhguru's ashram and doing all things yoga, spirituality, and uh self-development. So, Lohi, thank you for joining us, brother. Thank you for having me. Okay, so let's just get straight into it, brother. What happens when a scouter ends up moving to an Aslam in India when it is?

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Absolute carnage, I guess. I don't know. I'm sure we can retrace our steps, but it was very funny. Um I definitely had like a bit of imposter syndrome there for a few years for the first two years, and it was a distinct experience that like what am I doing here? Like I really shouldn't be here, and and uh especially like sitting there in the hall, the hall that they teach. It's a consecrated space, which means it's being energized in a specific way to have a certain impact. And this was done, I think, in front of 10,000 people. Adiogy Aliyam, I'm sure it was 10,000 people maybe. Um, and for me, it's the most significant and supportive place on the planet for practicing Hati Yoga. That's what it was designed for. It was actually designed for teaching and practicing primarily teaching. And I'm in there teaching to let's say 200, 250 people with my Liverpool accent, and there's a big picture of Sadhguru to the right that's always there, and I'm just looking at him while everyone's got their eyes closed as if, what have you done here? Like, how have you done this? And I remember speaking to a friend, and we said, it must have been like when no disrespect to mad dog Tommy Gravison, but you remember Thomas Gravison left Everton and went to Real Madrid, yeah, and like Zidane and Ronaldo and Fiegel and that are there, and we were saying, Imagine what he was doing, walking on the train, and it's like, what's going on? And that's how it felt as if like how I ended up here. It was so surreal, it really was. Um it felt very natural. At the same time, having said all of that, it also felt very natural because I was just seeking something I didn't know what, and I was practicing a lot of yoga. I actually practice yoga and meditation all around the world, and I've said this a few times before when I've had this conversation. It's no discredit to anyone else that's offering yoga or any other teachers that I've been with because yoga started for me as a proper ego trip. I remember, do you remember the first one on County Road? Yoga Nation. Yoga Nation. Yeah. So my mates who I used to go out with, we used to go out and party, and then we'd be in yoga and whatever training through the week. We used to do very intense training, and they said, Oh, we're going to this hot yoga, and you cannot stay in the room. Like, you're absolutely it's just not possible to stay in the room. And honestly, when I say it started with ego, it was full-blown ego, where I was like, I won't leave that room. Yeah. And he was like, No, no, our mate, uh Anthony, who used to play football. They were like, even he left, and I was like, I don't care, I will not leave that room. So it's funny and ironic that it actually started as a major ego trip. And then I was practicing different styles of yoga. Planet yoga was huge for me. That was huge in my journey, and I think so many other people's journeys in the city. And it never necessarily happened there, but I just remember after I went traveling, I came home, and yoga I was practicing. I I just had the feeling that something is missing, but I don't know what, and I don't really have the authority or I don't have the understanding of why I know something is missing, but something is missing. And then a very beautiful set of circumstances and journey that led me in front of Sadhguru. Um, yeah, I had like a real calling that I had to go to India and study yoga, and I don't know where or why or what. Then the next day a friend called me. It's a very beautiful story in itself, which I don't know whether now's the time to share, but it's a bit long-winded. But anyway, he called me on an old phone that I had while I was traveling. I it was switched off for like a few months, then I switched it on this particular day. Went, I was in like a sort of guided retreat, let's just call it. Went there, I had this experience that I need to go and study yoga in India. The next day I came back and I had two miss calls from him. So I called him and said, What's going on? He was going through something at the time and he just he was speaking to me about life, what are you up to? How was it going? I've just been through this. Then he said, Anyway, I've there's a teacher giving a talk in London and you need to go and see him. Now he didn't say it as do you want to go and see him. It was like he didn't give me an option. He said, You need to go and see him. And I'm like, okay. So then I searched online. He said, I said, what's his name? He said, Sadhguru. Now I'd never heard of Sadhguru before up until this point. I searched it, and the first thing, Sadhguru's done many, many things around the world. What do they call it? The flagship program is called Inner Engineering. He's done many um like ecological programmes, a lot of different programs for um the environment and humanity, like villages that really don't have anything like under the privileged underprivileged villages. But the first thing that came up was 17 and a half hundred hour Hathioga teacher training programme. So I was like, okay, but this is the day after I had this strong feeling. So I'm like, like it's it's just lining up here, you know what I mean? Ten days later, I'm sitting in front of Sadguru, and I think even before he came out, like I went and seen there was a stall where there was Hati Yoga teachers, and they were talking about the programme, and just the way they were, just the way they were holding themselves, I knew I don't even need to see what Sadhguru's got to say. But anyway, we went in there and he's talking, and again, I still I've seen many people like Alan Watts and um Eckhart Toll, I think I was into a little bit. Different, different people, but never really saw anyone like Sadhguru and didn't really even know what the concept of a guru means or anything like that. But he's sitting there, he's got these like really nice clothes on, this big nice watch, and the way he's talking, you've heard him, he's like a comedian, isn't he? And I thought, like, is he a comedian? Like, what's going on? I knew it was a spiritual talk, of course, but he didn't strike me just as like a spiritual teacher. But questions that I had for a lifetime, he was just slapping them away as if like the pathetic, and a couple of things that he said, but the main thing was I'd literally just travelled 15 months around the world, we maybe come back to that, but he's sitting there and he said Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, Patanjali is considered as like the the father of modern day yoga. He says that he didn't create yoga, but yoga was happening in many ways. He assimilated it, which means he brought it together and just like organized it basically uh into the eight eight uh eight limb path of yoga, uh, which is ashtanga. And I think it's ashtanga, I might be getting that wrong. Um, but anyway, the eight limbs of yoga. But he says in the book, he says the first sentence is and now yoga. So he says, What does that mean? And now yoga? Like, why start a book just with that? So he says, what he's saying there, or what he's implying, is you've tried money, you've tried love, you've tried family. And it was so funny. He said, and you've just travelled the whole world. He literally did that with his finger, and I'm just thinking, like, he's just talking to me. Because it was like, it was like time stopped in that moment. He was like, you've just travelled the whole world, and you've seen that that's not going to satisfy you, and now it's time to practice yoga. Basically, you've tried everything else, and now this is it, and that just like it blew me away. And then I had just some really big experiences in front of them, and it just felt like everything in my life had been leading to that moment, so I was just like, this is it, I've I've just got to go. And then um, even that it was like it was crazy, and it was a miracle of even the steps that happened. Honestly, when I look back now, it like it really wasn't in my control. I just had to kind of apply myself to some aspects, but things were just happening in a way where yeah, yeah, in a very graceful way, let's say.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yeah, so what's maybe happened in your life prior to you going on that journey into yoga, like what other things, because we know like self-development's a big thing in the world right now. Um, and you know, people are reading many books, many podcasts, like trying to figure out how to be the best version of themselves, and and you know, people are investing in certain things, and there's so many like fads or different modalities that are out there, like it might be meditation and cold water and exercise and dieting and fasting and yoga, hot yoga, uh bikram yoga, all these different types of modalities that that people are looking to get into. Low key people plant trying plant medicines, yeah, ayahuasca and mushrooms and stuff like that. Like, what had led you to the points of yoga? Like, what was that journey? Like, what things did you have to try along the way and what worked and what didn't work for you that brought you to the stage to go now yoga?

SPEAKER_02 10:51

I'm thinking as well, like when you've just said all of those things, you started this journey quite some time ago where a lot of this stuff wasn't as available, accessible, known about, like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Yeah. I know. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

We all need a little sip, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

So where it started for me, that's yeah, I don't know how far to go back, but um I think I always from an early age I suffered with depression from a very early age and and just lived with it silently and just sort of understood that this is how I am. And I cannot say I we had nothing when I grew up. It's like it's easy to turn it into the rap song. We didn't have as much as many, but we didn't have nothing. You know, when you go to places like India and Africa and parts of South America, different places, you see what nothing looks like. Do you know what I mean? Or you see what the bare minimum looks like, let's say. We're very blessed, honestly, so blessed to to live in the UK, where even if you have got, let's say, nothing, nothing, let's call it call that a job or an income. The government takes care of you in in so many ways, as much as we slander them, yeah. I've got a deep level of respect for them and a deep level of resentment, you know, because they do a lot for us, but they also do it in in a very manipulative and calculated way. That's the rabbit hole, which we don't need to explore. Um but anyway, growing up with not that much seeing thinking that money was gonna bring me happiness, money and the love of like a woman, and um this American dream that's being painted basically.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Like the lie was all this was a condition growing up, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Exactly, exactly. So I always remember this seeing someone, he's a football player, I won't say him, but he had dunno, maybe if I say this, yeah, everyone knows who it is. But he had the reputation of being like a little bit miserable, and that was never the case, actually. But he drove past the shops and in this really like nice car, and and I just remember think that even though I knew he was not like that, that when people talk, it just gets into you, doesn't it? Do you know what I mean? Like it's a very dangerous thing, actually. Like what we say, what we take in, because even if we don't believe it, it impacts us in a certain way, and I just remember thinking, like, when I get everything, I'm always gonna be happy, I'll always have a smile on my face. And the first, if I can say, real awakening happened, not under a tree in India, it was like in Las Vegas, in front of the Bellagio fountains. Um, because at that point I realised that I had everything that I dreamt of, like a beautiful girl in my life, uh, all of the money, or more money than I ever knew. Uh, I could do things that I never could have dreamt of. But the level of unfulfillment and it was even heavier, like there was so much disappointment that wow, I'm here. Like, then I started that was the first time I ever questioned like, what am I doing? Like, why am I living my life the way I'm living it? If this thing hasn't made me feel happy and what have you, and then many things happened from that point on, and it again when I look back and really attached to that, it's like everything happened very specifically, um when it was meant to, really, even if I didn't want to believe or accept it at the time. Had yeah, certain things just came into my life at the right time. I explored everything, everything means everything. And yoga, like I said, it started off as a it was very funny because it started off, like I said, in that way of just a very physical challenge. But the more I started practicing it, and I remember there was I did a half marathon and I'd torn my meniscus in preparation, but I'd already taken some money from people for we were raising money for someone um who just passed away, or yeah. So because I'd already done it again, I was taking it taking it as a challenge. I just went ahead and did the half marathon. After that, I couldn't walk. And in the physio was like, okay, you don't run anymore, you stop running, but again, I always needed to be doing something, so I thought, okay, cool, I'll start practicing yoga a few more times a week. That started doing something to me unknowingly. It definitely started making me become conscious. I had the first time I experienced what it was like to be unconscious. I became aware of being unconscious. Unconscious means I'm here now, but I'm thinking about what's gonna happen in 20, 30 minutes. And I just remember thinking, why if I've made the effort to come here, I'm in this uncomfortable position, in this uncomfortable temperature, but I'm thinking about what I want for my lunch. Like, why am I not here right now? So that was the first time I'd ever had that experience. I it was not such a significant experience now, but when I look back, I think, okay. And I was doing many things, and many people just thought I was crazy. I was very much acting very crazy in terms of what society or what people around Liverpool would deem as normal. I don't ever want to be normal, just to set the record straight. Yeah, actually, no, do you know what I'm craving a bit of normality currently in my life? But yeah, not that stereotypical normality. So people were actually concerned. The way I was living my life, it was very dysfunctional. Drinking alcohol, taking drugs, um, staying out all weekend. Uh, like I said, very, very materialistic. Um, the clothes, the tables, the which is the norm for most people in this city, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 17:50

I was about to say, do you know when you're doing all of that, then so you're living the normal life?

SPEAKER_01 17:55

That's what I'm saying, the normal life.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

You probably got like a lot less judged, didn't you? So people are more acceptant of you putting like you know, poison into our bodies, living in ways that isn't isn't healthy, it's very dysfunctional. But that is the normal for a lot of people, isn't it? And then I suppose you come on this journey and then people think you're crazy when you're actually starting to really deeply find yourself and go beyond these.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

It's funny because people would say to me, Now I'm saying I did that to the hilt, I took that to the extreme of like tables and we we were living in Ibita in Ocean Club every single day on beds and things like that. We were like all of the clothes, and and I started somehow taking the piss out of it, but while still doing it, as if like, what are we doing? Do you know what I mean? And I started, but the like the humour that I was coming up with, there was meaning in it, and people were like, he's acting a bit crazy, but semi-talking a bit of sense at the same time. And I just started like looking at the way I was living, we were all living our lives. I'm like, this is insane, and not only that, I was like, I was very popular around the city, especially on the party scene and like that. And every single week, without fail, every single week, people would phone me and say, You've got to come to this, like you need to be here. We're going out, it's my cousin's birthday, you need to be there. And yeah, that was really high energy and like really looked very happy and what have you there, but then I'm depressed sitting on the couch on my own on a Tuesday, my mum getting to see who the real me is. Do you know what I mean? And I've been thinking about that as in like this face that we put on to everyone outside, but then it's like the closest people in your life get to see who you really are. Do you know what I mean? And then I started thinking, what is this all about? Like and yeah, I just started questioning everything in my life, but at the same time, so at the time I started doing these, like created these events. I had an event downstairs actually in Camp and Furnace just before I left England and won an IBTA, and I felt it could really be something, but I seen I'm living a very dysfunctional life. This doesn't have the foundation to be sustainable or stable. Do you know what I mean? That kind of lifestyle, and but prior to that, I'd I remember a friend. Um very beautiful, honestly, when I look back at just how everything has played out very naturally, not forcing anything. I'd been to a friend's funeral, and then the next day I'd been skirting or flirting with the idea of going travelling around the world. I don't know why. Not really as a holiday, I just knew I wanted to travel. And I remember the day after I'd been to this funeral, I was out all night, got in at maybe 3, 4 am. But the moment I opened my eyes, I just went, I'm going travelling. And from that moment it was on. Then plan this trip 15 months around the world. Then, because these events were happening, I started. People were saying to me, You like, don't go anywhere now, like this is gonna be something. And I felt but uh something was driving me away. And honestly, after the night in here, we were there, probably had about 250 people. There was so much love in the room. Honestly, it was like it was like it's funny. I've got a picture I'll show you in a in a bit, of like where I was. I was in the centre of the room with everyone around me, and it was like, but then we went to there was a bar just on was it Jamaica Street? What's that road that the back of Box Park is on the big road that leads down? Not Jamaica Street, Jamaica Street goes on to that street. Anyway, there's a bar elevator there. We had the after party there, and I remember at about 5 a.m., 6 at 5 30, I Started having like a semi-panic attack where I thought I've got to go to the hospital and I am actually losing my mind. And I just I managed somehow to keep it together. And three days later, I was leaving England, and then when I left, everything just started breaking down. Like the whole facade, everything started breaking down. But I wanted to say that as in everyone was saying to me, You've lost it. And I used to just say humorously arrogant. I'd be like, I found it. Like I've found it. But I didn't know what it was. And then when I went away travelling, that 15 months, it certainly wasn't no just vacation. It absolutely wasn't that. It was like I was really going to restructure every side, every aspect of my life. Like I left. What year are we talking now? 2013. 2013. 2013. And I left. So again, you've got to understand, I left as drinking alcohol, taking drugs, eating meat, party animal. Being very casual with who I went with in terms of like women and what have you. Living my life in like such in in that standard normalized way, let's say, what a lot of us know. And then I came back like a raw a raw teetotal vegan who just does yoga and meditation. And people had seen this character who'd left duly. And like when I came back, I'd lost all of this weight. I just I wasn't drinking. And I was very lost, to be honest, because my whole life changed. And I hear someone talking, I'm forgetting his name, you might have heard the comment, I think you will have. And he says, there's a very lonely chapter of when you've stepped away from who you don't want to be anymore, but you you've left your friends from that part of your life, but you you haven't developed yourself enough yet where you're with the new category, or not category, I'm trying to categorize, but you're not in the place where you want to be, where you've met your new friends or the new people that are around you. And it was really difficult. And like you've just said, not to be like I was doing all of this first, but there wasn't many people that I could relate to or talk to about. Like, and I mean, I was doing everything from deep in the jungle to like meditation retreats, silence, vipassanas, uh tai chi in China, anything and everything. It was all it was full-time self-development, too much actually. But I was very scattered because I was I I met a teacher in Vietnam and she said, just try everything. She was a Kundalini yoga teacher, and she said, just try everything until you find a thing that fits for you. So I was like a blue ass fly trying this, this, this, this, this. And I just felt I'm all over the place here. I need guidance. Yeah. I was actually going from China to India to look for a teacher. I still didn't know what the word guru meant. I just knew I need a teacher.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

China's a very intense place. India's a very intense place. And my plan was to go from China, India for three months. For some reason, I flew into Chiang Mai and just had the feeling like, wow, I'm home. It was such a surreal feeling. When I walked about five, ten steps into the airport, it just felt like I'm home. And I was meant to be there for two weeks. I spent three months there. And three, four people said to me in two days, you don't need to go to India. Everything you're looking for is right here. Like said the exact same words, and I was like, Well, I guess this is it. So I spent three months there, and I knew again somehow I was saying to people, India is gonna be its own five or six month trip.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

And that happened less than 12 months later when I went to the teacher training. Um but still I was very lost in the midst of I just realized that the thing that I realized was and I don't say this with any offense, that I just when people say you've lost it, I'm like, yeah, I realize I had lost it, but I realised we've all lost it. We've all lost the plot of what life is actually about. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? That we feel we need to go and put ourselves into the ground to like buy clothes and and look a certain way and and have the new phone and the new coat and be on this table. And do you know what I mean? And I remember I was on I was never into social media, and I got on Facebook and things primarily because of these events, but then that segued into me going travelling, so I thought, okay, let me post so all of my family and friends can see what I'm up to. And I was in Australia, people are saying to me, You're living the dream, you're a rock. Like, we used to all have this thing saying, like, we are rock stars. So funny. We believed it to the point where it became true. Yeah, we ended up living this kind of lifestyle, which was very much like what we were doing, going to Ribeta, Glastonbury, everything. But and so I remember my friends saying that, wow, look, like the life that you're living, and then behind that Facebook smile, like I was in Australia, I got diagnosed with clinical depression, and I realized at that point that it doesn't matter what you've got, it doesn't matter how much money you've got, if you're living in a palace, if you're crippled inside, none of that is gonna take it away. For me, honestly, I feel it just makes it worse. Yeah, because when you're in a place where you've got everything, it makes it even more difficult to accept that you still feel so bad. Do you know what I mean? Where I I was in a place where I could have done anything at that point, I could it and it wouldn't have mattered. I could have gone to any beach, any mountain, any resort, it it just wouldn't have mattered, it wouldn't have taken that feeling away. And it was like the whole structure of this personality and character that I'd built. When you go traveling, all of that dissolves because you know, okay, we know him, he's done this, he's done that, these are his friends, this is who he rolls with. But when you go traveling, they only see what they see in front of you. And I started seeing that like that character character, it just evaporated. And I realized that I've been doing I was so lost, so lost within myself. Um and I remember the the doctor said to me, I want to put you on medication. Like I couldn't get out of bed, and at the time, like I'm saying, I'm living my dream, but this is how I felt, and I felt too embarrassed to to call anyone, even my mum. Didn't even call my mum and tell her.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

I know you're on your own at this time, like while you're traveling with like no one to yeah, just like so lonely, so like I think a lot of men mates I didn't you know, I certainly related that mate from going through my own process and my own journey, and I think I probably started off thinking I was going a bit mad, and you probably thought I was going a bit nuts and losing it a little bit, and ending up with really bad anxiety and panic attacks, and then going to doctors and taking medication myself, if you like, mate, and then trying to figure it out on your own and just being embarrassed and full of shame and guilt as like feeling like a failure of a man. That what was going on? I had two kids, I had um I had a partner, I had a house, we had cars, we had holidays every year, we had money in the bank, I had a good job. There's no reason to not be happy, but internally, mate, something was just breaking down for me, like my internal structures or your ego, or you know, whatever you want to call it, brother. It sounds like you know you've gone through something similar at the time, yeah, although different, um, in your own process. And I remember we went for some food a couple of weeks ago, didn't we, for your birthday? And um when you were sitting there talking to Thomas, obviously my little lad, around um he was saying I just want money, yeah. And you were like, happiness won't come from the outside, mate. So you were saying something to him having a conversation with him.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

I just asked him why.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

I just asked him why, and I loved it. 13, isn't he, Thomas? Yeah, I loved that I'm able to pitch a question to him and he couldn't answer it. And I was like, why? Why do you want the money? And he was like, It'll just bring me happiness. And I'm like, but like, why why do you want to why do you want to be an electrician for money? Okay, why do you want money? Like, and no one knows, but it's just spoon-fed and rammed into us.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

It's a big thing, isn't it? I've I work with lads, I work predominantly with lads when I'm in the schools, and that's the th first thing I always say to them, it's like I'll ask them like what do they want to do, and a lot of the time they don't want, they don't know, and I'm like, okay, so do you want to be like successful in your life? And I'm like, they're like, yeah, yeah, of course. And the first thing they identify success is always money. Talvez money, money, money.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Slide you out of the middle, slide out of the bit of a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Toby's like money and cars, and I'm not sure. And we try and say this to our elders, they don't, it's so hard to break that belief system down in younger people.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

But I'm saying, and it was very interesting for me because I'm like, kid, listen to me. I've lived it, I've done exactly told them exactly like a bit about my background, and I'm like, I've done everything to get there. I'm telling you, if flat out doesn't work, and he just wouldn't entertain it. He was somewhat, it was penetrating him a little bit, he was at least acknowledging the question, and I was so blown away that at such at 13, he's even just been like, I'm sending him Alan Watts videos, like, what if money didn't exist? And I'm like, but I also listening to you say that, I also think at 13, even if someone would have spoken to me, would have I accepted it from them. Because I don't know. When I look at my role models, and even if I look back, some of them did try to tell me, you know, you don't need all of these 500 pound codes and things like that, but I didn't listen because it was edged into me that that's what was gonna make me happy. And I think, yeah, we often chase the things that we've been deprived of when we were kids, but I don't feel Thomas is deprived of money, but still it's in his head that it's like, and that this comes from the book. I don't know whether you've read it, Simon Sinek. Start with why. Because if like it's a top, top book, and it's like you've got to know your why, why you're doing anything, because in 20 years' time, when you ask that, when you sit there and let's say you've got the house and you've got the money and you've got everything, you've got to know why you're getting out of bed every day. Basically, it comes down to purpose. Yeah, it's the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

So important, and I don't just think like it's always been spoken about for the past, you know, since I've done men's work, if you like, and it's a big thing that I help men with. And I've worked with some men, low-key, like ridiculous amounts of money, million, a couple of million bar businesses, miserable. Yeah, they haven't achieved what they want to achieve, they're getting out of bed, they're just they're not satisfied, they're feeling depressed, the relationships are breaking down. But I also think like there's a big element of that happening with women as well, Carly, isn't it? Like with lack, like feeling this lack of purpose in their life, lack of meaning, um, because they're being asked to go out into the world now and obviously do much, much more than they ever have done before with the busyness of life, aren't they?

SPEAKER_02 34:05

Definitely, yeah. I think women for the past, maybe to maybe since like the 60s, since like the feminist movement and stuff, women feel a lot more empowered in ways. But then I like I always bounce it back to them. Has it actually brought us happiness having more empowerment? Like I I always say, I if I was born in the seven sixties, seventies, I wouldn't have been able to have boxed, I wouldn't have been able to do certain things, but at the same time, I only have to look at like how stressful families are because they're having to now have two parents going out and getting it. That's the thing and that's having impact, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Do you think it's healthy? Do you think it's healthy?

SPEAKER_00 34:42

I think relationship statistics means a show and no because they're breaking down now more than ever.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

It doesn't, it just generally, even from a natural perspective or a natural standpoint, it doesn't, it doesn't seem natural. Like it doesn't mean when I say this, I say this with the utmost respect for women. I've got the I've got insane levels of respect and gratitude for women now. But the woman was always the one that takes care of like the home and the child, and not because like they're any less, it's just women are naturally more caregiving.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Do you know what I mean? And nurturing, and and is it not a blessing to have those first seven, ten, thirteen with your kids for like full time, anyway? It's not even full time because the schools have got them for like eight hours a day. Now, and they've done it again, it's been so like manipulative the way they've done it, they've done it in stages, but I think us as a generation can see how it's happened because you used to have the the pair, the man would go out and earn the money, and the woman would be the homemaker. Yeah, like in India. I think here there's a big stigma around it. If you ask a woman what do they do, and they just say nothing, they're like nothing, and they're trying to say I'm just a stay-at-home mum.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

And I always say, like, there's not that that is like the most powerful, incredible job you can be.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Even even just look, listen to the difference in in the language here. I'm a I'm just a stay-at-home mum. If you ask an Indian woman what do they do, very proudly they'll tell you, I'm a homemaker with a certain sense of power about it. Do you know what I mean? Because it's like, but the way they've done it is in they've made things expensive over a period of time. Where now, so the man, or let's say the father, I don't know what to say there, but he would go out and earn the money. The mum, like, would take care of the house and the family, and that was enough to live on. Now you've got two work two parent working families, and it's still barely enough.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Do you know what I mean? And now the parents are not seeing the kids that much, or when they are the boat spent and cannot really give them the kind of time and involvement. And I'm I fully appreciate that women are able to do a lot more now, but it's just like, how far do we let this go?

SPEAKER_02 37:06

I believe, truly believe, that had women not have gone through so much suppression, I think that's the biggest thing. They would have much more connection to wanting to be that homemaker. Yeah. But because they've had this suppression for for many years, there's like I wanna, I wanna have more.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

No, it's like an extreme backlash, isn't it? Where it's going to the other extreme. Hopefully that teepers down a bit. Do you know what I mean? But yeah, I just it takes you back to the why.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Why do you need to have all this? Why do you need to do all of this? Like, is it because you you know you feel like, well, we've got to have the women's back like, well, women can do it just as much as men, women can do it. Women women are incredible. We can do anything we put our minds to, but again, it's like, do we want it deeply, truly? Like, is it fulfilling? Is it is it helpful? Is it healthy for the kids?

SPEAKER_01 37:55

I think you spoke about it as well, Paul, didn't you? That on like a call, that was for me the most impactful call. But like, it's a very masculine quality to go out and earn and strive. And yeah, do you know what I mean? And I I that really hit me when when you said that because it's like it's not that women don't have that, but it's not a very feminine quality. Do you know? Is that what you were saying? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Yeah, it's more if you're looking at qualities within men and women, like more of a doing an action and drive and push is more of a masculine, maybe um, you know, trait that you would say that we as men and women, you know, when we're saying masculine, I'm not saying I'm not talking gendered, exactly. I'm talking like an energetic or an action that that is deeply encoded within us. And a quality within us, mate, yeah. And equally, you know, I think a lot of men are always like you'd say, me and you sometimes, mate, can be very driven, can be pushing, can be trying to find things, and and sometimes we need to tap more into being able to rest, to be receptive, to allow to be in flow a little bit more. So I think you know, it's finding balance for people to understand how the energetics work within us. But I think for what's happening within the family dynamics, if you like, and within relationship dynamics, there's like this um it's like hyper individuation of both the man and the woman that they're both constantly pushing, whether that comes from wound and that men have maybe caused to women over you know generations, um, you know, even misusing power. If you like with finance and using finance as a weapon within the relationship, these are all things that that that that probably happen in relationships, aren't they, on some level?

SPEAKER_01 39:30

I feel we are in a very confused time. Absolutely. To be honest, I think that's the word. Well, it's very funny. I don't know whether you've seen this quote from Sadhguru. I won't be able to get it up. Yesterday I sent it and he said, A friend is when you realize there's another being as confused as you, but you're still able to support each other. And I'm butchering that, I'm like uh paraphrasing, but it's I'm in a group and it sent off a whole discussion. My friend was like, I don't agree with that. Like, I don't agree, like I'm not confused, I'm not like, and then we had a lot of back and forth, but three of us all had a very different, we all read that message very differently, and it's not a confusion as if like you don't know what's at order on the menu, it's a confusion as in we don't even know why we're here or what we're doing or what this means, but we're able to support each other through this journey and acknowledge each other. And but he said something very beautifully like, I'm not you can be confused about what you're doing in life, and you can be have the ultimate confusion, like, oh man, sweat lodge John, what a guy he was. Take your legs off the moon.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

What a guy he was. Some some lads while we were talking, one of them men um had his feet on on the rocks while we were talking, and John like interrupted the whole like chat, didn't he? And was like, Will you get your feet off the moon?

SPEAKER_01 40:58

Just like that, just and it was funny because I was very self-conscious about it. I was looking at it and I was like, Yeah, you don't even mean honestly, I was walking around it to walk inside where people were just stepping over. I just felt that doesn't look right. Just me. Do you know what I mean? I'm a little bit whatever on that, but I was it was just how blunt he said it. But coming to why I'm saying him, he was talking about the great mystery. He just kept referring to life as the great mystery, and I'm like, what a brilliant way to put it. Not God, not like the source, not the creator, the great mystery. Yeah, because it is a mystery, and he says, Sadhguru is like, what is a mystic? He said, Things that are mysterious to you, or that's a mystery, it's not for me. Do you know what I mean? That's what a mystic is. They can see behind the curtain or the game or the mechanics of what this is. But when he he said that the great mystery, I was like, What a beautiful way to put it. And he was saying, Me friend, in a in an amazing way, he was just saying, like, life is a gift, like the sun rises every day. You don't have to do nothing, and you shouldn't even question why. Yeah, just like he said, someone gives you the gift, you don't ask them why did you do this? Yeah, you just accept it. But that falls into the next thing of our ability to accept. Do you know what I mean? This is a big thing I'm really going through at the moment of fully accepting, accepting support from people, accepting myself completely. And I think that's this is a big thing. I think real acceptance is such a such a difficult thing.

SPEAKER_02 42:38

When you say that, obviously, because obviously being with you so long and knowing what you're like, is that something then you can say, like, really, you know, as a man, it's hard to maybe accept that support. Because like you said, then in when you're in that feminine quality, you're in that receptivity. Yeah. Where sometimes like I'm I'm guessing like it's a struggle more for men because they're more in that masculine pole.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

It's very well that I remember hearing this word, and it's a perfect word for it. It's very demasculating. It's very demasculating having to ask for help and ask, and and that's really a thing in in India where I've been living, because I was like a full-time, I was a volunteer for eight years, which means wasn't earning money, wasn't like didn't have anything coming in for the longest time, and and he sets that up, particularly in the ashram. And this is a very I don't want to use this word like because it doesn't necessarily have to be spiritual, but this is a big quality, and that's why you see a lot of like Buddhists and people like that, they go out and beg for food because that in itself is such an ego crush where you've just got to put your like how do you feel? One thing you're sitting on the road and you're asking, What is that doing for you? Like you've got to. Lose all humility to be able to do that, you know what I mean? But he said it was always an essential pat for a genuine spiritual seeker to go out and ask for biksha. Bhiksha means you're begging, but it's it's seen in a in a more of a respectful way, especially if you're on the path of like you're a monk, you're you're a yogi, like you find these people living on the street, they're not homeless because they don't have anywhere to live. You know, you've got people who are like top IT professionals, and they've left very, very intelligent people, they've left everything and they've gone like in in pursuit of the ultimate, which is whether you look at liberation, enlightenment, um whatever term you want to call it, they see that everything in the world is futile. This is the reason why we're here. So they consciously decide to strip away how if you want to get somewhere, if you want to get to the top of a mountain, would you carry like a backpack or would you carry two suitcases? If you want to get to the top of the mountain and you're gonna carry a home or a house, it's like the lighter that you are, the faster you're gonna get there. Do you know what I mean? So that's why the reason that they sort of they don't want to be attached to anything basically. Um so these people you find them living on the streets, but they're glowing. You look in the face and they're glowing, do you know what I mean? And they've got to ask, but people respect it because they see the people, the society, people, the family, um, people that live in families, they understand that these people, if they get there, they're gonna be like beneficial to the planet if they reach these states like a Buddha or a yogi or whatever. So there was a great form of respect. It was even more so back in the day. In India, it was a whole system. Do you know what I mean? It was an honor to be able to feed someone who's on that path, like, and you take blessings from them. But why I'm saying that there's a great sense of humility, and it brings down a lot of ego already just by accepting. Um so in the ashram, they they call it the big shahall. Um and you'd eat in silence, you you'd eat on the floor with your hands, and it's so natural, it's so beautiful. But so I really had to come to that term that right now I I I literally am. I'm a I'm a beggar. Do you know what I mean? And it does it does something to you, like you said, the shame thing, and and uh yeah, I'm still going through it at the moment where I'm still trying to reintegrate back into the society and slip back into the machine of what I do here and like that. And yeah, I've got some very beautiful people around me who who supported me, but but yeah, I definitely do. I do feel there's a lot of shame in that.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Yeah, and I think that's a big thing for memes, is firstly, it's being able to ask for help or understanding that you might need some support in getting to where you want to get to. And this might not necessarily even mean just mental health, it might mean in business, it might mean in relationships, it might mean in any area of your life, but you know, how can we maybe get to that place without having to go to India or without having to leave your home? Yeah, and how do we at the same time like merge, you know, what you'd say is a lot of people are maybe waking up to certain things in the world and spirituality or these practices are becoming more accepted by by the modern world, if you like, yeah. Um in the West. How do we integrate the spiritual aspect of life with like the material aspect of life where we don't have to just ditch everything and go?

SPEAKER_01 47:49

Exactly. Well, I feel a blend of both of them is very important, and I think that's why Osho is so significant because he really was. Honestly, I'm reading a book. Uh I'll send you. I've got a Google Drive of all of these PDFs, so I don't know whether I've sent you that.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

I think you sent me something recently. I haven't got my hand to it, yeah. Um I don't know whether it's what you're talking about now, but he sent me something.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

I plan to yeah, but it's a book on Sufism, like Sufis, Sufi mystics, like these are the the mystics of Islam, and um anyway, that's a different story, but it's a very beautiful. I was reading it yesterday, but I know you love Osho, but why I feel he was so significant, he was he was a yogi, but he was also a psychologist, and he he was trying to merge the two, do you know what I mean? And it's kind of like that's at least how I felt. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Uh again, I'm not speaking with an authority as if that's what he was doing. That's how I feel and see what this man was. And I've even heard him saying that you need to take an aspect of the east and blend it with the west. And honestly, even before I went to India, I felt that. I felt I need an element, you need to meet in the middle. Someone said this, I was thinking, I need to go and live in Istanbul, Constantinople. That's that's the meeting point, isn't it? Yeah. Of where East meets West. And but that's honestly where I feel right now. So coming to that, like my friend says this. I've been in India and I've done an insane amount of yoga and self-development and inquiry and things like that. But I see there's still struggles there that have been there for a lifetime. This whole process, it's been so transformative, it's changed and saved my life in ways that I cannot imagine. Those foundations that I spoke about at the beginning, about with the events, I definitely feel it's done that. It's given me solid foundations, but I cannot deny there's certain things that are still happening within me that the yoga has shined, like these big, bright, shiny lights that we've got in here. It's shined so much light on them. It's given me the understanding of where these traumas have come from, where these insecurities and fears and doubts have come from, but it hasn't removed it. Do you know what I mean? And that's where then I do feel the Western approach is also needed of like a therapist or uh support systems or looking at different modalities for these things that are there. Do you know what I mean? So again, I'm going around the world to say these things, but it it I I feel personally, after having done all of that, it definitely, at least for me, I'll talk for me, I feel a blend of oath is required.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:43

But I just think I think for me, a big thing is community because we've lost all sense of community in the world with this globalisation, like you look at these social media things, like we're all connected, but all more disconnected than ever before. Yeah, you've got so many friends, so many followers, but have you really got anyone to phone and say I'm really struggling? I'm really in despair right now, and I just need to speak to someone. Is there even even yourself, really? Yeah, is there many people that you do that to? No. Is there many people you do that to, Carl?

SPEAKER_02 51:21

No, there is even and that's what I think really sad is women are a lot more like embodied and and and we should be when we're in fullness, like more connected and more open. But because the way women have become now and the way the world has pushed us into this driving way, I feel like we've lost that, so we haven't got that deep connection anymore. And as you were talking, then like what came to me was when we were in Slovakia in January on the retreat, I actually said, I think in in one of the videos about one of the biggest healing modalities is connection. That's it. Like it's not this big mad like thing. It's something so simple as connection. And I think a lot of the girls got that from that week. They were like, wow, just being around women who were so open and easy to to be around and understanding. And we said, like, you know, we're gonna stay connected and already said it to you today. We were we were catching up and and I understand we get busy, but the amount of people that couldn't make off like first like meet from there, you can just see the the Western world suffering people back in. And it's like we say we want something, but yet we don't fulfil it. And again, that's not having a dig at anyone, it's me being truly honest to say if you want it, you've got to make that time you're for yourself, you've got it, you've got to understand connection for me personally, connection connection and nature are two of the biggest healing modalities that we really take for granted and just don't even honor.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

I was thinking that like one thing when you were saying connection, I also feel just feeling safe. I think most people, because now I I'd asked someone recently, I'm so happy, like this recent generation, they're just giving the booze, like they're not really into it the way our generation was, Hardy. Do you know what I mean? And I asked someone, a friend was over with their daughter who was like 26, and I said, Why is that, do you think? And she said, Probably because of smartphones, and people don't want if you're rotten drunk and acting like an idiot, someone can quickly just capture you, and the next minute you're on TikTok. And I was like, Wow, I didn't even think about it like that. So I think people are a lot more self-conscious. Give them the face, mate.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

There's enough heavy footage of me or Daddy.

SPEAKER_01 53:45

Seriously, man, we just have stated, and there's already some heavy metal material in the out there, to be fair. But I just look back and I think, like, so that one in terms of feeling safe now, and that's the extreme example, but I mean safety in terms of you share something with someone, are they gonna tell someone? Is it gonna end up on social media?

SPEAKER_02 54:08

Oh, definitely. Do you know what I mean? I think for women as well, so many women have got this like sister wound if they've been let down, so they don't feel like they can't open up anymore. Whereas again, that is women being so disconnected from the true nest, because women, again, if you look at like tribal communities and how women used to be, they'd be together in communities and they'd share the wisdom and stories with each other. It's it's there's there's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 54:31

Can you flip it to like the man, the man's wound as well, though? Like for me, which we speak about okay, like how many men have grew up without a close relationship with his father, how many men have grew up without being able to be emotionally felt by the father and understood, and I think father taught how to regulate and and learned how to be a man in the world. Like, there's a big disconnection with men being able to trust being safe with other men because we've been condemned since the day we were born for showing anything, any emotion.

SPEAKER_01 54:57

That's honestly why I feel right now. I feel like men's mental health is one of the worst things that's happening on the planet, other than everything that's going on in the Middle East, like literally for someone that's going through it myself. Do you know what I mean? And it's an unbearable pain that if you haven't experienced that, you're not able to articulate or explain it like the depths of what you go through. But I know so many other people are going through that, and everyone just feels embarrassed. And I again I'm saying that now, being honest about it, because I carry shame. I carry shame that I've done so much work, why do I still feel like this? Yeah, but it's there, and now really I'm really just starting to acknowledge it and being like, okay, like if I had a broken arm, would I feel embarrassed telling you that I've got a broken arm?

SPEAKER_02 55:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

But if I've got like uh like anxiety or depression or something going on within me, why do I feel like we've been made to feel like this is a major embarrassing disability?

SPEAKER_00 56:00

Yeah, there's still a heaviness around collective ache means I think in men, you know. Like I do believe a lot of the men I work with, Loki, when I start speaking with them, it's like they're just just this emptiness. Yeah, it's just this emptiness and this void that that no matter what they do, it's not enough, that they're not satisfied in life, that they're not content, that they always need to be doing more, that they can't be present, that they're overthinking, they can't sleep.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

And not only that, I mean it's a great thing, honestly. It's a big, big thing that men are even talking about these things now. Yeah, because 20 years ago, was anyone speaking about this? Like, was your dad? Would you never have got your dad speaking like this? It was so it's it's a big, it's a fortunate thing. I really feel like we are a very important generation. Like, I look back at like my mum, and they never had the luxury to even explore these things, they never had the access to explore these things, they never do you know what I mean? And I know how difficult it is to step to these things, so when I look at them, like I just really feel we've seen we've seen that transition into modern day technology. Do you know what I mean? Modern day connect like connection to the world in a way that no other generation ever has.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

We've we've spoken about that before, haven't we? But we we're like a generation that's known no technology, and then we're gonna know the full spectrum of what we've seen both sides of the fence, the age of AI think we're like.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

We're like the only like generation that'll love like be a part, like both. It's it's significant.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

I really feel it is. I don't just say that, but I genuinely feel it is because it's like no other generation had that, and no other generation will. There might be other quantum leaps that go very far advanced with technology, but what we've seen, even just the transition into a smartphone, because if you look at it, that's been the game changer, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 57:51

Look at even like ChatGPT and all these AI like chatbots at the minute, mate, like they they're taking over now, aren't they? Like it used to be Google a couple of years ago, and I was like, have you asked ChatGPT?

SPEAKER_01 58:00

That's it, that's it. So, but what I wanted to say to come back to what you said, we're just so disconnected and like connection and nature, and I swore I'd never go. I went to a zoo in Chiang Mai and seen a panda full-blown depressed, and I was never aware of these things, it would have just been like, Oh, look at the nice panda, but like I could see it actually depressed, and I thought that's the last zoo I'll ever go to, but I didn't. Sadhguru used to always talk about he grew up in Mysore, Mysore's a place in India, like a city, and he he often speaks about Mysore Zoo, and I was there, so I thought, okay, let me go in and just check it out. And and I seen this bear walking in no bigger space than this room, it was probably from like the camera to to the end there, and it was just walking up and down, it looked demented, and I just thought that is going crazy because it's so far away from its natural habitat. But look at a city to not think we're doing it. That's what that's what I'm trying to say. We are living in that way.

SPEAKER_00 59:06

If if we as a system and society are struggling with mental illness and what's going on like in the world with addiction, with drugs, with relationships breaking down. I know we can do what we can do as individuals, but equally the environment is gonna affect how we show up, which is what's happening with the animals in the jungle.

SPEAKER_01 59:25

It's such a battle, it's such a battle because you're just like, what do you do? Like, you just go and live in the forest on your own. Show it. I'm ready.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

That's what I always say. We live in a concrete jungle. I say it all the time.

SPEAKER_01 59:36

We we say that, but we actually do like it. We say it, and maybe that's just true for me, but we say it as if like it's just it's just like a tagline, but it actually is like that.

SPEAKER_00 59:47

But we're not meant to be living, we're living out of our nature, but it's to be happening.

SPEAKER_02 59:51

It's and it's continuing to get more built up that there's less green, there's less nature, and as that happens, the statistics and mental health in men, women, children, the ages now are even younger than that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

I think that's the thing, no, what you've just said, though. Like we're going into the age of like artificial intelligence, but are we just living artificial lives? And because we're living outside of our nature and we are living artificially, it's destroying us.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

Absolutely. I think that's like so true. I believe there's so much truth in that. Like, I believe the more things build up and become more artificial, more it what's the word I'm trying to think of?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Just just phones and technology and because even like people's bodies, Botox, like everything's become unchanged and different and artificial, and the teeth and and everything's shifting and changing, not nobody's being themselves.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

Naturalness and nature have kind of dissolved and it's all false and pretentious and built and look at Instagram, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:47

Is anyone ever saying, like, how many people are sitting on Instagram saying I'm deeply, deeply in despair here? Like I really don't want to live life anymore. And you know, if someone did, you'd probably get a better response on that, but everyone's so scared just to say how they are. Yeah, even me, I had to delete the app because I'm just like I'm posting and I don't feel like this. People are in India that are saying, Wow, you look like you're busy and you're active, you're living the life, and I'm just like, but I don't feel like this. Yeah, so I just like I cannot do that. It's so inauthentic, honestly. Man, and it like that's the thing. You're seeing people almost getting run over because they're just sucked into this thing. Yeah, now again, what you do, you don't have one, like you need one to connect. But I think I think the awareness, everything probably that we've spoken about, I think it's just awareness. It comes down to that the awareness of how you use these things. It calls them tools, Sadhguru. He's like the tools, smartphone, it's a dumb phone if you're not using it properly. Like it's the awareness of yeah, we've got these powerful tools and devices in our hand, but we need to consciously use it, but we need to not let that stop the connection. I know you can easily use it. It's using us, isn't it? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

It's not enhancing us, it's using us.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:08

Like, how appalling is it when you're in a restaurant and you're seeing, let's say, a couple sitting there both on the phone.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:14

I do that quite often when I go somewhere, I like observe and I'm like, wow. No, but I'm like, I'm like, they look like they're on a date, and they've barely spoke to each other. Because sometimes you'll get your phone out because you'll work on your phone and that, and I'm like, no, like no.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:33

Yeah, it's we are all weird. Even last night, even last night, I was sitting in a room and I was heavily on the phone and the laptop all day, and I was going down for for tea or dinner with my mum. And I went to leave the bedroom and then I went to step back to get the phone, and I thought, is it a problem if the phone stays here for two hours, an hour and a half? Just go and be with it, you know what I mean? Not that you're necessarily gonna speak every every moment of that. When anyway watching we're on another device, watching the television, but it's just that thing, and as soon as I pick it up, she picks hers up, and it's like it's wrong, man. It's really wrong. Like, are we not divided enough in every single way? Now you've got a house with four people. I'm sure there's moments in yours where the four of you are just all on your phone, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

Yeah, and it's scary, mate. It is using one person will catch the rest, won't they? That's what I find happens sometimes.

unknown 1:03:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:35

I might come off my phone and then see three people on the phone, and like, can we get off the phone? And we do try to have a rule as a night, no phone in the living room and phones off at a certain time.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

I think again, just approaching it with like a little bit of awareness. I remember Mark does these digital detoxes, and we were saying, like, and I remember saying to him, because he goes into the schools as both of you do, we need to develop a program, which we actually should develop this. But I'll get to the the point of it. Is in we need to develop this to go in and teach kids how to use the phones consciously. Then I went, oh no, no, sorry, we should start with the parents. Oh no, no, sorry, we should start with us because like who are we to teach anyone? Like, can I say I've got an amazing grasp on my ability to consciously use the phone? Like, it's the addiction, it's that WhatsApp addiction, isn't it? Like, has anyone messaged? Yeah, and it's like, okay, I've got a couple of little habits that I do that, like I won't look at it after 9 30 pm.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

How do we break that though, brother, with with with these devices set up like there's what's it called on Netflix? Um, social dilemma, is it? Yeah, like they're designed to addict us. I know. And they know how the human brain works.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:57

Like, like fall into these bad patterns, like we're we're being pulled. So it's so hard, like you say, be aware, be conscious. But again, when you're all aware and you're all conscious, but you're all like having to work and to to pay for life, you can easily get a bit tired, get it, slip up a little bit, and then it they're so easy to pull you down.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:17

And it is, I mean, even if you're working on a project, I remember I was away with someone in Thailand and he works online. He's got like this like yoga retreat websites. If you're putting a retreat on, you book it through theirs and people can find it. But anyway, what I'm trying to say is he works primarily online, and he says on his break, he goes onto Facebook. Do you know what I mean? Like on his break, he goes onto YouTube, so he's already working online, and for him to take a break from work, he goes into these other things that are also online. So I don't know where's it going? Do you know what I mean? But I know again, where you said about artificial intelligence, how Vast and quickly people are able to earn money nowadays. And that's only people pretty soon are going to have more time on their hands than they never than they ever have because of artificial intelligence. And he says it's a guru. He said pretty soon the wealth is going to be, and he said sanity is going to be a form of wealth soon because there's going to be such a lack of it. Because people are going to have more time pretty soon than ever before and not know what to do with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:30

I think we're seeing that that's why it's evidence. We're seeing in COVID. People had time and we're seeing domestic violence go up, separation go up, mental health go up. Like this, you know, these types of statistics all rose when people had time and space.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

That's the thing. And it's like, and I know it myself, I'm really become very aware of a pattern that when I'm into a project or I'm travelling or a conversation or any activity, I'm good because it's a bit of a distraction away from what's really going on. But when that all stops and then things start slowing down, things come up to the surface, and you're like, Yeah, these things that I'm I'm kind of sort of choosing not to look at by involving my and that's why I realize I involved myself so much. It was it was very interesting. Years later, I was addicted to playing football when I was a kid, just as much football as I could play, and I didn't know why. And then I realized later on that that was an escape from my reality because when you're playing football, you're so fully involved that you forget everything else that's going on. And I realized because I didn't enjoy my reality so much, that's why I just had to be engaged.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:46

Um It's why we see some of the issues in the world when people are trying to just escape their reality, they end up sometimes in maybe situations that aren't always the best. So when you said that, obviously I work with young lads. Some young lads are trying to escape their reality that they find their place in in like gangs and all of these. And a sense of belonging because that's what we're all looking for, but connection is one of the biggest healers to the finding something that is a human need. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:19

And relatable because these other kids probably don't know. Get it on their lifestyles, backgrounds. Same with even drugs, do you know what I mean? People are like taking drugs to get to this place, to get to this. I was in Pasha and I was like, there's more spiritual seekers in here than than in temples and churches. Because look at the look at the intensity that people are just trying to get to a place. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And it's like that definitely is possible without it. But it's like it's not an easy road, man. And it's a long, drawn-out road. Maybe not even drawn out, but it's a long road.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:56

Yeah, and I suppose like the importance whether of having obviously you've been on your journey, you've been on your journey, I've been on my journey, and we still are. Yeah. Um, it's a never-ending journey for me. But I think it's never been more important to have certain tools in place that can help you, you know, pull you out of certain situations, that can help you grow in consciousness, that can make you more aware, that can get you off your phone, that can get you connected to other people, where you can spend time in nature, you know, whether it is breathing, whether it is yoga, whether it's reading, you know, all these different tools. You've got so much access now.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:30

It's just maybe too much access, where, like you said, the whole list of the um yeah, the whole menu, spiritual menu that is out there. But it's great. We cannot complain because it's like we've got more access to it than ever before. It's just finding what fits for you. Do you know what I mean? I practice a lot of yoga, maybe that's not good for someone else. And even now I'm exploring like really getting fit and getting strong, which I'm happy. I want to bring back into my life a bit of boxing. Um but yeah, ultimately, like you said, connection, connection, and but I do feel lad. I I I genuinely feel like we've got to let go of the shame, man. Shame is such a big thing, especially and as I say this, like Liverpool, we're a very proud city, but the pride kills us. We're so proud that we don't want to admit to anyone what's going on. And it's like I always have said that, as in look at the tragedies that bring the city together. There's not a I don't know if there's another city on the planet that comes together like Liverpool when something happens. But you get everyone to come to a celebration together. And remember Liverpool brought the they won the league last year. I went down there to me, Everton kit. I was the only one in an Everton shirt. Having a bit of banter with everyone, and everyone was like, What are you doing? And then I put it on Insta, and all daft Everton fans were like, What are you doing, you divvy? This is a proper woke mentality, and like and I was and then that accident happened. That accidents, that incident happened with the fella who drove through, and then everyone's like, Oh, we shouldn't be having this our city, and you're like, No, no, 30 minutes ago, we all should have been out celebrating together, but now like a tragedy happens, everyone wants to rally together. It's like we've got it back to front, yeah. It's like when we should all just be supporting each other anyway. When the shit's the fan, take like horrific things to bring. When the shit is the fan, we'll deal with that. But why are we just not supporting each other anyway?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:35

The well-being of nature, mate, is interdependent, isn't it? Yeah, it's an interdependent, interrelated network that that the more that we collaborate, come together, support one another, the more we're gonna prosper. Yeah, and the more we're all gonna grow together. But it's just like there's such an egoic mind, not just in Liverpool, but just in the world, that that it is like a dog-eat dog condition, and that's certainly bred into us to go out. And we are from a city that maybe you know, we we've been brought up maybe not having nothing, like you say, but where maybe money was scarce for a lot of people, and you've had to figure things things out and you know, duck and dive a few things to find your way into places and and and in the right circles if you like to get to where you want to get to, and we are the best at doing that sometimes, mate. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:19

Um it's a very resilient thing, but I think like you said, that competitive mindset is in embedded into us at an early age, and it's not healthy. Yeah, it's not healthy because it's like we come from this mindset of scarcity that if I I if like if I let them in, that's only half for me, or it's like not like we can share it all, man. Like, literally, look how incredible this planet is with just a little bit of human consciousness. This could be a paradise for every single every single life form on this planet, but just because humans with a bit of crazy ego and like major fear, look at what we're doing to the planet, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:04

Just imagine it like every human being a cell on the planet, light or dark, if you just switch the light on to be a bit more open and conscious, then the whole world looks lighter. But I feel like now we're seeing a lot of darkness in the world, you know, seeing what's going on now.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:20

You've got to look at it, you've got to look at it, and I'm trying to look at it on a positive spin as in like COVID, just because we're being pushed so far, is it a process of like from unconsciousness to consciousness that like because we're seeing it so bad that we're really having teracity? I'd like to hope that that's why this is all happening. Yeah, because now if you look at it, it's now more open and visible than ever before.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:49

And I suppose when people do become conscious, quite often when they've hit the deck, that's been on the knees for the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:54

That's what a lot of people are being driven.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:59

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:00

And I feel it's not that it's gonna happen, it's happening. Do you know what it's already happened? But I think it just is gonna just require enough of us just to come to one place and just be like, no, enough now. That's enough. We're not entertaining this no more, and I think more and more it's happening, but still got a bit of time to go. I've got two minutes left that I've not answered anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:25

No, it's cool, brother.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:26

I'm just thinking, um I feel like I didn't say anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:30

For me, what I'd like to just speak on before we finish, mate, is obviously Men's work. Yeah, yeah, you're a you've you're obviously a part of Men's in the Master The Academy and a big part of that, mate. And I know when you came home, um obviously I'd heard of your name when um when you were in India because I've been doing a lot of yoga the past couple of years, and you came up a couple of times and Julie or Lokendra? Both, I did both names, I did both names Julie now Lokendra, like I've heard both names, um and then I was itching to show us a catch up with you in a meeting, and I know Carly was like dying for me to hurry up and meet her to sort me out.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:07

Like you said them earlier on, you were you were on a journey where people were like didn't get it, thought you were going crazy, and I've absolutely thought to say.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:22

So I do I do get it. Yeah, but again, go on, what do you want to ask?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:27

So with more brother, obviously, we met and think it was like September, October time, and then you got involved in men's in a mastery academy. Um, you know, how has that been for you, brother, in terms of stepping into men's work, being around men, not just from this city, but a little bit further afield? Like, how important is it for you that men do this type of stuff, and how much do you feel it's helping you and what's it like for you?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:50

I feel personally that men's work for me now is the most important work on the planet because, like you said, like most people grow up without fathers and without present fathers and role models in their life. Um and I grew up without a dad and didn't know of anyone to educate me or guide me on how to be a man. So I just feel again looking into men's mental health. I think men's mental health is the base. Do you know what I mean? And then once that is sort of the foundation is set, then men's performance. So I really just feel it's very, very important and it's been huge for me just to be like on the calls with men, being open, being vulnerable, sharing what's going on with them. Like honestly, I feel the biggest part of it is just seeing men feeling like they can share because I just don't feel they ever feel safe enough to be able to. Um, so that's a big thing for me, and again, I I felt two things were really important men's mental health, men's yeah, I'm gonna leave it at men's mental health because that's the baseline and community, yeah. And I feel your group is definitely ticking both of them. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Because it's like even though we're looking on performance and becoming the best version of ourselves, I feel the baseline is always you're just okay. I've got to get it. Do you know what I mean? You've got to be there, and then you're looking at okay, how to keep developing. Yeah, and again, just I just feel that the community, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:30

I think as well, obviously it's like speaking about men's mental health, obviously being a woman, working with women, I can echo the importance of men's mental health because if men are showing up the best that they can be, that is gonna have such a positive impact on the women of the world. Absolutely, and I see now so women who have been going through a lot of things in separations, domestic violence, you know, abusive situations, and again, then that impacting young boys, and then them young boys have been, you know, unfair and un and very challenging towards their their mums, women. So I think more men stepping into this work helps the whole balance.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:10

I don't I don't say this with a discredit to women and how important their mental health is and how important like their day-to-day lives are, but like you've just said, I feel the man has such an important role on the relationship with the woman, on the the relationship and the example. If you look at it, the son, even though there's always this father-son conflict of domination or territory, that it have you felt that yet with Aiden? Oh yeah, yeah, a few times.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:44

He thinks you can take me, done it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:50

But that's always there. But if you look at it still, that he's the role model. Then if you look at the the impact that he has on the daughter, he's the example of who they're gonna go out to be with. Yeah, do you know what I mean? And if they're seeing them not showing up or being a bit violent or being a bit abusive, again, unconsciously, they sort of take on that. That's what a man looks like. Yeah, and then they sort of navigate to that and bring that into their lives, and you just so for me, that's what I'm saying. I just feel it is, and me personally, I I just feel this is something that I really want to do. And you've made me look at even with all of the work that I've done, you're really making me look at what it means, what masculinity actually means, yeah. Um and what that looks like, and the sorts of areas that I'm not really seeing, okay, like so many things have been brought up where I'm just like, okay, yeah, I see that happens in my life, and I'm not really giving it the um the attention that it needs.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:54

Thank you for sharing that, brother. Just looking at the time, so we're just nearly on time. So um I think if you had one word to say, yeah, one word to say to any man or woman listening to this podcast who is maybe struggling or they need some help or support, maybe a sentence more than one word, yeah. Um what would you say to that person to do? What would be the number one tool or advice or feedback you give to anybody who's watching this, brother?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:26

Lose the shame. Lose the shame. Honestly, that's where it starts. It's lose the shame really. Community is so important, reaching out and getting that support, but honestly, it has to be like, and again, I say that from myself right now. I say that's what's true for me, isn't it? I think we're all very shameful, or we all feel very shamed about asking for help and being honest about where we are beyond all of the props that we wear and that we live in, it's like yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:04

If I was to ask you that question then, because I feel like that was a good question.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:08

I can't remember what I asked them now. Repeat it to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:12

Just what advice would you give to any man or woman who uh just wanting to show up and be the best that they can be, if they're struggling right now in life. You've obviously shared a lot about shame being something is like the heaviness. There's something different you could you could invite. What would that be?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:29

Um if somebody was struggling right now, the first thing I would probably invite is to connection, is to connect with somebody. Um connect with whether it is something free, whether it is picking up the phone to someone, whether it is telling somebody that you're struggling. I think connection is a big thing, whether it's connecting on watching some YouTube videos of my stuff, of somebody else's stuff that might just be relatable to you, whoever it is, start to look at stuff that might just start to help you, um, and just to connect with somebody who's maybe been where you are and has come out the other side. I think knowing that you're not alone.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:01

Relatable is an important word that you just use, but I'm gonna ask you the same question. What would you say?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:08

I'd have to say connection. I think connection's like really important. It's something I've probably been searching for, maybe as well, hasn't it, for the past couple of years? And again, it's hard because sometimes you you put yourself in those spaces and then it's not you're not feeling like reciprocated, yeah. And you sometimes like the the stories can come back up as like, oh, and we have that expectation sometimes, don't we? It's like because I do it, why is it not done in return? Kind of thing. But I know anytime I'm in those spaces where there is that community is when I feel the fullest, yeah, and it can be obviously connection with family, but then again, when you've got somebody working so hard and people being so busy, it's hard even as a family to have meaningful connections. Meaningful connection, yeah. The meaningful needs to come in with it, like bullshit connections doesn't really matter. Exactly. It's gotta be meaningful.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:55

We've seen on the retreat this weekend, brother, and even like you know, sometimes on the calls, yeah, it's great, but when we get to the in-person stuff, like the magic happens, and that's where things click and and big shifts happen for men. You know, some men were there this weekend that and the men, some of the men that are there, by the way, they're like fucking men. These are like like working men, tough men, um, men who have maybe struggled to express emotion that are going home, and you know, the the the open-hearted, the crying to the partner about how happy they feel, about so much gratitude. Some of the messages I've had this week are just absolutely mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:28

Yeah, even here, and one of our men's share, like he's having insights about the way he is with his dad, the connection that they've had through what what they've gone through, and and then he said it's just making me really think about the kind of connection that I want to have with my son. Do you know what I mean? And and I do, but when you both say connection, definitely connection would be my thing, but I just feel there's a step before connection of like accepting that you want to connect with someone and not feeling you're putting yourself out there or putting yourself on someone, yeah, like you're the burden to other people, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is man, come together.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:06

Thank you, brother. Any words to close, Carly?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:10

No, it's just it's just nice to just again, like even though we're connecting right now, and there's like a sense of calm, and I don't feel like I felt this sense of calm when I come in. I felt a bit like, oh, there's been a lot going on today.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:23

I feel the same, to be honest. And I was really interested how this was gonna go on, but yeah, I read a little passage out of the Zen book just before I come in, so maybe that was it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:33

My nervous system's definitely feeling a lot more soothed and settled anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:38

Well, I'm gonna take the credit for that, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:40

Thank you very much, Loki.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:43

Any final words with that? No, just thank you. It's it's been really beautiful for me, honestly. Like, I always think back the first first, honestly, I haven't said this, but the first time I seen both of you look at me for the first time. Yours was down at the I Am project on Softon Park, and you were just looking at me, and you're like, hi, uh, my husband wants to meet you. And I'm trying to like load things into Mark's car. And I was like, Oh, does he? Where did he? And you're like, He's an Indian. I was like, okay. And then, but I could see you just had this excitement to be like, Yeah, I think Mark had said, I need to go and introduce you.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:20

So he introduced us, and I did think, Oh, hopefully you can be the person I can come and talk to. But I don't get I haven't been able to get all of your journey, but now you still got each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:30

And I remember when you first looked at me, it was in a wake, and I had this, I'm teaching this the kids arm, and it went down like a lead balloon. I'm trying to teach them, and they're just taking a piss, and I'm like, uh, some kid, I'm saying to him, Do you know that on your television there are only three basic colours like red, blue, and green? Did you know that? Out of these three basic colours, they make every other colour. Did you know that on your TV? So I said, Is there a kid? And he went, is it? And I said, Yeah, and he said, Prove it. And I was laughing, you know. And it was just like, and but I remember seeing you just there, and you're like, just like looking at me, I was thinking, okay, and then I seen him with you, and then we met, but I always remember that look, and I haven't even said it to you yet. But now for me, I think I've just really appreciated meeting both of you and spending time with you, and like even meeting meeting your lads like Aiden and Thomas, and yeah, it's just been really special. And for me, I said this to Paul, like because I can see so many qualities in him that were there within me, which is why I'm just trying to be like just fast tracking it, where it's like it's not needed. And the other day when we were on the retreat, I said it to you. It was like when I first taught him, uh I did a correction session with one of the practices he's learnt when I first come on, and he was like, just relax, man, slow down. And this fire was there in his eyes. No wonder he's uh burning the house down for you. Um I just felt that um that sense of ease had come into your eyes and you'd relaxed a lot, and it was as much as I know you're going through a lot of things at the moment. I just even the way you're sitting here now, I just feel it's very, very different. Maybe you're putting this on for the for the people at home. But um, but no, it is, and I don't know. I'm just really grateful to uh to have this connection and yeah, excited to see where it goes from here and just learn and grow and share with each other. Do you know what I mean? Because this is what it's about. Us. So yeah, so we don't get you charged on a drawer. Let's wrap it up.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:45

Thanks, Sean, brother. Okay, thank you very much for coming on meeting, sharing your journey. Harley, thank you. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:52

Thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:53

Thanks.