Covenant in a Disposable World

In a world where everything feels replaceable, relationships included, what does it mean to live out a covenant?

In this episode, Grant and Joan talk honestly about the tension between a culture of convenience and God’s design for commitment. Marriage today is often approached with the mindset of “if it stops working, move on.” But covenant tells a different story; one rooted in faithfulness, sacrifice, and a promise that reflects God’s unwavering love for us.

Grant and Joan unpack what covenant really means, why it matters more than ever, and how choosing to stay, forgive, and rebuild in hard seasons is not weakness but, strength. This isn’t about pretending marriage is easy. It’s about understanding that the beauty of covenant is often forged in the middle of the struggle.

If you’ve ever questioned whether it’s worth it to keep going, this conversation is for you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Welcome back, Mr. If you're new here, our podcast is about real marriage, real faith, and the battles that happen every day on the front line of family life.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

Well, we hope everyone is doing well. Um, over the past few weeks, when we've been kind of processing and working on podcast ideas, um we were talking about the format of this podcast and how we want those conversations to start to unfold.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

So from here on out, our episodes will follow more of a rhythm. We'll start with a frontline moment, which will be a personal story or two from our own marriage, and then we'll reflect on it through a biblical lens, and then we'll wrap it up with something lighter like rapid fire.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

Or how about a session on Ask the Husband and just see how a husband would answer questions? So many women out there would probably love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Yeah, that sounds good.

SPEAKER_04 1:25

And our heart is that somewhere in all of this we can encourage couples who might be walking through their own very difficult seasons.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Yeah. One thing we've learned over the years is that marriage isn't just about romance or compatibility, it's really about commitment.

SPEAKER_04 1:41

And so today we're gonna talk about something that feels quite counter-cultural. Um, covenant in a disposable world.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Yeah, our culture it tends to treat relationships like contracts. If things stop working, people walk away.

SPEAKER_04 1:58

But we know that the Bible describes marriage very differently. It actually calls it a covenant, which is something deeper, something more lasting.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Yeah, because a contract is based on mutual benefit. So if those terms stop working, which they do so many times, it can be broken. But covenant is built on promise and faithfulness, especially when things aren't easy.

SPEAKER_04 2:24

This is gonna be our frontline moment, so a real story from our marriage that kind of helps fit into the concept of covenant and commitment. Um, there was a season in our marriage that really tested to us what covenant meant. Um it was a time when Grant um you were really ill, like you were emotionally and mentally struggling. And I remember you saying to me one time that you actually felt like you just hit a wall. Um, you didn't, I don't know, you didn't even know where to move forward. So you actually began withdrawing. So sometimes Grant would leave the house and just like randomly just leave. And I know, I believe now, like I learned back, or sorry, I learned now that we we talk about it, that he would just go sit alone in a parking lot, or sometimes he would go to hotels just so that he could be by himself. Um and unfortunately it was there during that time too that he was doing like a lot of the bad habits, smoking and drinking. Um, it was a really painful season for our family. And for me, of course, being at home um alone, it felt incredibly lonely. I had the boys, and of course, I'm trying to hold things together, and there were moments when I wondered if things were ever going to change. Um, there were actually times when I even thought it might be easier if I was just alone with the kids rather than carrying the weight of all the things that we were walking through. I know people sometimes would ask me, why, why didn't you leave? Um, or why don't you leave? And honestly, I I never had a clear answer. All I could kind of think is that I'd grown up in a home where parents were committed to their marriage, and I think there was that part of me that felt embarrassed by the thought of failure. Like the last thing I kind of wanted to do was call my parents and tell them that my marriage was falling apart. Um, but even more than that, I can remember many times this turning to the Lord over and over again and praying for Grant, and I remember surrendering him and just letting it go. Um and I would commit God, I would commit Grant to God because I didn't know what else to do. Um, and even in the middle of that hard season, there really was part of me that still loved Grant deeply, and I loved and I missed the friendship that we had together.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah, that that season was difficult for me too, in in many ways that I didn't fully understand at the time. But I remember feeling overwhelmed and uh uh emotionally exhausted. It felt like that I had reached a point where I just didn't know how to carry everything that was going on in my life. I couldn't do it anymore. So withdrawing became a way to cope. You know, sitting alone in a parking lot or going somewhere quiet felt like the only way I could clear my head, the only way that I could rise above the noise and the and the clutter that was going on at home. Uh looking back now, I can see how painful that must have been for Joni and the kids. But one thing that's interesting uh is that even during that time, leaving the marriage was never something that I ever considered. I had grown up in a family where divorce had already happened, and I had experienced divorce myself just after my teen years, uh, before Joni and I were married. So somewhere deep inside me there was a conviction that I didn't want to repeat that cycle. At the time, I might not have even described it as spiritual, but looking back, I can see that God was protecting our marriage even when I wasn't fully aware of it.

SPEAKER_04 5:42

So that season really raises a question that we kind of want to ask in this episode. So this is a question that we would ask listeners that were kind of looking back and asking ourselves was there a time when marriage felt especially hard? So, of course, that would have been a time for us, and that when staying committed required a decision to consciously make a decision. And for me, yeah, that definitely was that season. Um, I remember realizing though that commitment means staying even when you can't see how things are going to get better. So just one day at a time, sticking it through one day at a time, and yeah, just you know, things you can't see a solution on the horizon, but just kind of sticking it out and again, trusting the Lord. But yeah, it it uh means staying when you don't have any idea if there's going to be changes.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Yeah, and I think that's that's the time where marriage shifts, it stops being about feelings and then becomes more about faithfulness. Because we know that, of course, feelings come and go, but commitment is what carries a marriage through those difficult seasons that Joni and I just described. And often you don't realize until much later that those hard moments were actually strengthening something deeper.

SPEAKER_04 6:51

Yeah, because you know, you look back and the feelings definitely are so powerful, like the feelings of loneliness and fear and anger, and that can totally shape what you're thinking, and and and that can totally end up sometimes controlling people's decisions. Um, but we know I think that commitment is also quieter than something that we expect. You know, it's not always this big emotional moment. It really is, like I said earlier, it's just about choosing to stay just one day at a time. So you're not making big, big motional or big um grandstand things. It's just really quietly choosing to stay one day at a time. Uh so Grant, in that time, was there a time like when staying committed, did it require a decision for you? Like what how did you process that time? Looking back now, how would you say you processed that time?

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Well, for me, that decision was made on our wedding day. And at the time, I don't think I fully understood the weight of the promise that we were actually making to each other. But during those difficult, as we as our marriage progressed and got through the stages of all these difficult seasons, and then you started uh relying more on faithfulness, uh, in those difficult seasons, something in me kept going back to that moment, uh, to the moment where I made a vow and and we made a covenant.

SPEAKER_04 8:08

And I mean, and of course, I think we talk about this often, Grant. Like, I don't even if you look back at our wedding video, you know you can just see us um the looks on our faces, like I don't think we had a clue. Yeah, we definitely the the impact of that promise, like don't have a clue, but I think it's really cool that that you would say that that you can now look back and be like, wow, that you knew something, like God was stirring in your heart even then, like you knew something was profound about that.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

And I think I think that day uh certainly you were thinking more about the pageantry of the wedding and things that were, you know, my you know, my wedding, you were looking forward to your wedding day, right? And uh we both both did not realize that there was some work to do after that wonderful day.

SPEAKER_04 8:50

I know I often I think I say sometimes they will be driving by a park and there's people getting their wedding day pictures taken or whatever, and I'm I kind of feel like jumping out and being like, You have no idea what you're getting into. Like, just you know, just go in there with eyes wide open, you have no idea. But I wouldn't want to ruin somebody's day. But one of the reasons we wanted to talk about covenant today is because the way our culture views marriage has truly shifted over the years. Today, marriage seems like it's often built around those feelings, um around compatibility and whether expectations are being met.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

That's a big one.

SPEAKER_04 9:21

Yeah. And when those things change or people can't make meet your expectations, then people just assume that your marriage has failed.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

But of course, scripture gives us a very different picture. Malachi 2.16, we read one passage about God's view of marriage. It says, For I hate divorce, says the Lord. But the heart of that passage is really about covenant.

SPEAKER_04 9:46

Yeah, because just before that, that's that's Malachi 2.16, and just before that, um, in 2.15, God says, Um, be on guard and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth. Like she's your covenant, and she's your or sorry, she's your companion and she's your wife by covenant. That word covenant is again means a sacred, binding promise before God. It's not just emotional and it's not based on how we feel in the moment, thankfully.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Yeah, it's a vow made before him, right? So, what was happening in Malachi's day is that people weren't just ending relationships, they were breaking something very sacred. And God uses really strong language. He says it's like covering yourself with violence.

SPEAKER_04 10:32

Yeah, wow. Which shows us that covet or sorry, that breaking a covenant is not something neutral and it's not something that goes unnoticed. It wounds. Um, breaking a c covenant betrays and it tears at something that God created to protect and nurture. And that context is really important too, because at that time men were abandoning the wives of their youth, they were walking away from long-standing promises.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

And God calls that faithlessness. He even warns do not be faithless to the wife of your youth.

SPEAKER_04 11:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

There's something else that really brings this into focus. So when you stand at the altar, you're not just making a promise to each other, you're making a covenant with God. You're saying, God, I promise you I will be faithful. I will keep showing up for better or worse. In every season, I'm making that promise to you.

SPEAKER_04 11:30

Yeah, you know that, Grant, that just shifts everything because now when you look at it that way, the foundation of your marriage isn't just your spouse, it's actually your relationship with God.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Exactly. Your spouse becomes the recipient of that covenant, right? But the promise is made before God. So powerful. Yeah, if I'm walking rightly with him, that's going to shape how I love Joni.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

Yeah. That's good. And it changes the focus thing of things too, right? Like instead of asking, are you meeting my needs? It becomes, am I being faithful to what I promised God? Like if that doesn't make you stop and think, right, wow, um, because the covenant marriage again reflects the very character of God. Throughout scripture, we see that God remains faithful to his people even when they are not faithful to him, right? Even when we're not meeting anything, expectations otherwise, he remains faithful to us.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Yeah, and that's relevant because marriage was designed to mirror that kind of love, something steady, something enduring. You know, it reflects something bigger than just two people, it reflects God Himself.

SPEAKER_04 12:44

Yeah, and I think that, you know, in society when we treat marriage lightly, we end up really missing that picture of God's faithfulness. And that's really sad.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Well, and so what does that mean for us today? Marriage is a covenant before God, not just a private agreement.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

And in that covenant, God calls us to something deeper. He calls us to faithfulness, protection, loyalty. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Yeah, and it's not about convenience, it's about commitment. Especially when things are hard and they're gonna be get hard and they're gonna be hard many times, right?

SPEAKER_04 13:22

Yeah, and and through that hard time, and when you're staying committed in in those hard times, that is where it creates something that creates something that's actually super important in a marriage, you know, and that's safety. Because when walking away isn't the option, when you feel safe enough that you can stay, um, couples can actually face problems together instead of running away from them.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yeah, and I noticed that's the shift that I noticed the biggest in is we just recently, uh, as we just continue the work and continue the work uh after years and years and years, now three decades, uh all of a sudden Joni's responding differently to to my sarcasm or my playfulness or my or you're hurt or you're words that's yeah, or or or yeah, or in her yeah, she she would interpret that as as me hurting her in some way in words, but if I'm joking or if I'm you know trying to get a rise out of her, you know, or like that. Back in the day, she would be oh man, our our I she didn't feel safety, so she would want to just and she was a runner back then, so she wouldn't want to run away from from the situation, which she interpreted as a problem, uh, but it wasn't. And now that she has that, now that we've done that, the now as our marriage has shifted to that safety, it's just so much, it's really obvious. It's uh it's a lot of great playfulness, and right? How do you think that's a good thing?

SPEAKER_04 14:42

Well, and I would say like that's a really good, I think that's a great topic and concept for marriage is that safety piece. And um, you know, you need to feel safe in in in so like and it's not just safe about I think the protective safe, but safe to to make mistakes, safe to be heard, um, yeah, and and that you feel protected, and that your spouse isn't gonna be the one that's gonna take you and hurt you and hurt you, right? Take you down and hurt you. So you do create that that place that it should you just feel safe, and that's what it should be. Your marriage should be the place again, um, where you come back to where you feel safe. And when you feel safe, then like I think the the question will shift from for me, it would have been like, how do I get out of here? And then it might shift to something like, well, how can we walk through this together? Yeah, how can we go through together instead of just one of us running away from each other? It's let's let's get down and do this together.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

So and we and that's the thing she's we're and we are not afraid to go anywhere. We're not afraid to talk about anything. Before we might have both been fearful to talk about a certain subject or whatever that subject would be to us, but uh now we're that's that safety piece where we're we're able to talk about anything and without fear of being hurt or without fear of that person ru running away.

SPEAKER_04 15:53

And you know, and yeah, just even like a little thing might be for me, like even I I think financially, which is it is kind of sounds minimal, but you know, at the same time, I I've had before fear of oh ask, you know, talking about money and the grant's gonna you know think that I'm spending too much, or just just a fear, and then and then it becomes I'm dealing with my own or I'm starting to hide things, or you know, you're doing things that you shouldn't do. But when I know that I can feel safe in his response, that we are working together and it's not um yeah. So again, just that safety. I think that's really important. Everything is more super important.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yeah, everything is much more transparent.

SPEAKER_04 16:26

Yeah, and you feel yeah, yeah, and I just feel so comfortable talking about anything.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Another verse that has meant a lot to us over the years is Ecclesiastes 4 12. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

SPEAKER_04 16:40

Yeah, and then again, through the covenant and talking about that husband, wife, um then of course that third strand is God. You know, I think there were seasons in our marriage where God was the only one that was holding everything together, like there's no way, like we were just threads, we were ter tattered threads, and so he was the only one that was holding us together.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yeah, well, because sometimes two people just don't feel strong enough on their own. No, but if you have that, if you have God and you and when God's part of that covenant, his faithfulness will sustain us when we can't, when we don't have the energy or the strength to go any further.

SPEAKER_04 17:13

Yeah, and the man, people who don't have that, like that's again, that's where marriages are falling apart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

And that begs the question so why do many, so many marriages today struggle if this is God's design? Well, one one reason is that many people have not seen covenant lived out.

SPEAKER_04 17:31

Yeah, like if you have never seen or witnessed a family or anyone around you a marriage make it through hard seasons, then I think it's easy to believe that um when things get difficult, people just walk away, so it must be over. Like we see that because we live in a culture, you know, instant gratification. If something breaks, we replace it. If something stops working, we move on and we go get something else. And marriage has taken on that um framework as well, right? If it's not working, I don't love you, you're not meeting my needs, we just move on. But that's not how God intended marriages. Marriages should don't grow that way, should not grow that way, because healthy marriages are built slowly. And so they're gonna you're gonna go through really hard times, but but it's like you can't just quickly dump it and run. You gotta it does. It takes time. Um, they're built slowly. You you need to practice forgiveness and patience and perseverance. Um, again, they're not sustained by feelings alone, but by that covenant, the covenant that is not just between husband and wife, but with God.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Yeah. And and it's that covenant that holds uh strongly when emotions are wavering, when circumstances feel overwhelming and the road gets very, very hard to travel. Because often the the hardest uh seasons are not the end of the story. They these seasons are the very places where God is doing his deepest work, refining, strengthening, restoring. So if you're in a hard season today, don't assume it's falling apart. It may be that through your commitment to the covenant, God is building something stronger than you ever imagined.

SPEAKER_04 19:13

Yeah, that's a really beautiful way to wrap that up, Grant, and to just to like summarize that because yeah, and this has been really on our hearts a lot in the past few months. Like we've just have seen so many marriages falling apart, and that is why we kind of wanted to reflect on this and and talk about that covenant piece and that, yeah, like we can't do it alone. And it's so so important that we are walking with the Lord and that He is our and I like I love that too. I love what you said earlier, Grant, that you know you you're making the covenant to God, like you're making that promise to God, and that your spouse actually is the one who just receives that, is blessed to receive that. And as long as our relationships with the Lord are moving on and forward, then then our spouses are gonna benefit from that. So that's a great now, that's a great way to kind of summarize all that up. So I uh yeah, I hope that that somewhere in there that that makes some sense for people and that encourages someone. Um, you know, hard times come, they come all the time, but we're so grateful that God will use them. We know God uses them, we've seen him use them in our lives, and so we're grateful for that. So before we end today, again, we kind of wanted to go through all that, share our hearts, and then just end with something a little bit lighter. So um we're gonna just do um maybe a couple rapid fire questions. Um again, I think it is it this speaks into the playfulness that we've developed in our marriage through the years that we are just able to be comfortable and silly with one another. So, question is, Grant, let's see, the question is Who apologizes first?

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Well, definitely me, but you eventually get there.

SPEAKER_04 20:49

But that's like the wrong, the wrongest answer. I honestly I I've said I said this to him, but I think we were talking about this funnily, oddly, just the other day. And I can probably count on one hand, maybe how many times you've actually initiated an apology on your own. And and I know your heart is sincere to apologize, but the words they do not come quickly. You've got to admit that.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Well, well, we see some things a little differently.

SPEAKER_04 21:13

No, come on. Honestly, honestly answer that question. Like how many times do I have to say how many times do I have to say to you, Grant, say?

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Yeah. She gives me the script to say the apology. I like to take the time to make sure that it's uh um a very you know uh a good apology. It's a it's a heartfelt apology, not just going through the duty of saying, I'm sorry. Well, because then right, what will you say? I'm sorry for you're sorry for what? Oh, yeah, I so I have to identify, I have to think, I have to mo go over what exactly I'm sorry for.

SPEAKER_04 21:49

Which is great because I often do say I say to the kids too, even at work with the kids, and they say sorry, I'm like, sorry for what? But at the same time, when you take sometimes I think people, when you take too long, then the person who's been offended or hurt feels like again they're not being heard, right? So I just would encourage you to try and move swiftly through to your process.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Well sometimes the pro that's a bigger problem is I don't really know what I did wrong.

SPEAKER_04 22:13

Hence the script.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Many guys out there will know that feeling. And uh so so yeah it's it's it's a little bit more than just who apologizes first. So it goes a little deeper than that like most things.

SPEAKER_04 22:25

But I do think that I actually do it first. Okay, the second question Grant do you want to take that one?

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Well who's more stubborn?

SPEAKER_04 22:35

That might be a tie depending on circumstances. Although I think you're you're a lot more mature wise that you maybe maybe you um what's the word that you give in to me quick more quickly because you don't want to like it's not worth it because you like you often talk about wasting emotional energy or any kind of energy. So I think that I am more stubborn but then also more immature.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Or maybe we're equally stubborn but like I said your maturity rules the rules that yeah the well the the the the question goes again a little deeper. It always ha has to go deeper. It's not as simple as who is more stubborn. Right? I just tend to the difference between you and I is I tend to just pick my battles um for uh clarity and have the have the wisdom yeah maybe there's there's some a little bit more wisdom there to pick the battles and see what and understand what I can control what I can't control.

SPEAKER_04 23:32

You know guys that is again just spent being with somebody for almost 32 years and just learning that about each other, right? Like I don't know it just because I've learned I mean he's got literally has gained so much wisdom in that and and knows when and and then I'm able to receive that from you better than I used to be. But um yeah I I can I think that's stubbornness and then I my st yeah stubborn and then and I pout if I don't get my way.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:56

Maybe I don't know do I do I pout. But then that's when my blue like my emotional oh my emotion the b the emotional um loving part of me comes in with color personalities whatever because I'm um gold color meaning highly driven and organized. So I think that's probably why that's that I'm more stubborn. I'm stuck to what I want to do and then your emotional w warmth.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

I'm blue uh color blue which is uh everything gets dealt with through my emotional response first then you have to get taper that and tame that because that can get out right that can get out of control.

SPEAKER_04 24:32

So yeah that's that was true. Anyway so bottom line I don't think it's a tie now I actually am thinking that I'm more stubborn. Are we gonna fight about who's more stubborn? Because we're gonna dig your heels anyway.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

No I pick my battle wiser than that.

SPEAKER_04 24:44

Okay. Um and then the last one I don't know what's the silliest argument we've had can you think of any like we have had uh we've had a million arguments many of them silly obviously and believe me you need to have a lot of arguments conflict is is underrated silly arguments it's worth it I can't think of anything like silly I'm sure there's so many in the beginning years that are just absolutely ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

I well I don't know I didn't remember I would say that that not not a specific topic or or or anything or just the silliest arguments arguments we have are when we realize after arguing for an hour that we both wanted the same thing.

SPEAKER_04 25:26

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

That we both literally wanted the same outcome and we're just yelling at each other because someone got hurt someone's feelings got hurt and then you go down a bunch of different thousand different rabbit holes then you come by and how many times have I said that's so true.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

Well I think I think we're on the same team right but only on the same team we literally want the same thing you're absolutely right yeah and I think that might be the youngest children us just again stubbornness but yeah it's so many times and it's just the way I'm wording them and I also think we're not listening to each other. Like we're just both talking and not really stopping to listen which has gotten better again through the years it has become better.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

But that's funny Grant that's absolutely sometimes it'll go for an hour an hour and a half and then we go oh we we want the same thing okay I love you okay that was a waste of energy so though so that there you go that's uh that's those are silly arguments and we still we've cut down on those yeah for sure for sure just because you go through the mud like that so many times the repetition matters yeah and then you realize we're not going to do that anymore.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

Yeah so okay well those are fun and I again I you know ask each other those questions and see what kind of answers you get but we appreciate you joining with us again today and again we hope that something that we share with you might have been touching your heart and will help you grow and your relationship with the Lord and one another.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Thanks for listening everybody stand on the front line together and don't let the battle steal your blessings.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

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