Stop. Sit. Surrogate.
A mother and daughter podcast educating others on surrogacy from a surrogates point of view. And the point of view from the intended parents, children born from surrogacy, the agency, legal professionals and IVF doctors for the science behind it all. Together we have brought 8 beautiful children into this world and it’s been an insane rollercoaster ride! Good and bad, the sweet and the sour, all coming to light about the truths behind the best and worst surrogacy journeys. Stop. Sit. Surrogate. Is a podcast that is able to give well rounded information about surrogacy from every point of view. We hope to give as much education as we can provide, to those who want to learn and know more about surrogacy.
Stop. Sit. Surrogate.
Building Bonds Before Birth: How Joint Sessions Transform Surrogacy Journeys
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Rachel’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rachelgoldbergtherapy?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
Step into the emotional landscape of surrogacy with licensed therapist Rachel Goldberg as she pulls back the curtain on the psychological aspects of gestational carrier journeys. What many surrogates fear as judgment—psychological evaluations—are actually thoughtful assessments designed to ensure everyone's wellbeing throughout this profound experience.
Rachel reveals why joint counseling sessions between surrogates and intended parents should be standard practice before contracts are ever signed. These facilitated conversations create safe spaces to discuss difficult topics like selective reduction, communication boundaries, and post-birth relationships. As she shares, "We're building the foundation so that when cracks happen, they remember there's a foundation first."
The most compelling insight? Nearly everyone initially resistant to these sessions later expresses profound gratitude for the experience. Through real examples from her practice, Rachel illustrates how these sessions prevent misunderstandings and establish authentic connections between parties who might otherwise struggle to navigate their different communication styles and expectations.
We explore what really happens in psychological screenings (hint: they're looking for human, not perfect), how agencies are increasingly including mental health benefits in surrogacy contracts, and why even experienced surrogates benefit from professional facilitation of difficult conversations.
Whether you're considering becoming a surrogate, seeking to build your family through surrogacy, or simply curious about this unique journey, this conversation offers invaluable perspective on the human elements that make surrogacy journeys successful beyond the medical procedures.
Subscribe to hear more conversations that bring transparency and education to the world of surrogacy. Have questions or stories to share? Reach out to us on Instagram @stop.sit.surrogate or email stop.sit.surrogate@gmail.com.
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Welcome. We are a mother-daughter podcast about all things surrogacy. Together, we have brought eight beautiful babies into this world and we would like to share through education and knowledge about surrogacy with those who want to educate themselves on the topic. This is Stop Sit Surrogate, sit Surrogate.
Speaker 2:Hi everybody, welcome back to Stop Sit Surrogate with Kennedy and Ellen. Hey everybody, we have a very fun guest today. I'm going to let her introduce herself. Would you like to give your name and what your profession is in this?
Speaker 3:field. Yes, my name is Rachel Goldberg. I'm a licensed therapist. I work in reproductive and mental health, perinatal infertility, surrogacy, pregnancy, postpartum, all of the above. I do evaluations for gestational carriers, donors, I do consultations for intended parents. So I've always been really interested in the overlap between physical and emotional health.
Speaker 4:Wow, that's very cool Cause, like I really want to know, like how did you get into the specialty? Like that is such a little niche, right that happened.
Speaker 3:Were you always interested?
Speaker 4:or did somebody say hey, do this for us, and you were like I love this?
Speaker 3:both kind of. I was always into, um, health psychology. So, um, I I went when I was at UCLA, I worked with a health psychologist and so I kind of learned a lot about it and she was pregnant at the time too, so I learned about pregnancy. At the same time, um, I was also a personal trainer. So when I put myself through grad school, I was a personal trainer and I had a client who, um, I was working with a lot of pregnant women and she had to have a hysterectomy and then had to use a gestational carrier. So that was my introduction to gestational care. And then after that I was in West Hollywood as a personal trainer.
Speaker 3:So I feel like that kind of paralleled with a lot of third-party reproduction. So it was around me, it was very common, it wasn't like this taboo thing or this weird thing. So then after a while I just continued down the same path of my perinatal, but in as I was going to school I was becoming a therapist, I stayed in that lane of perinatal infertility and then over time I started getting into evaluations and it just feels like it was the natural fit for me to just continue in that path. So it's always kind of been around me, but I didn't actually dive deeper into it until I thought, oh wow, there's actually something you can do in this. It's not just you know this big field if you think about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is kind of the Wild West, but you know it was like oh, mental health professionals actually have a role in this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's interesting that you were, that you had it while you were at school, like you kind of knew about it and so you could kind of direct your lane and just kind of stay there and not, you know, dive off Right. It's just very interesting to me how this whole field just I don't say exploded, but just oh, it's huge, so needed, it's so needed and I just don't think there's enough of them that handle that specific of you know all the things that you're doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't think there's any, and in some ways that's a good thing and not such a good thing. But right, we want more. But at the same time, um, it really does take like a specialized training and I think that, just having you know, sometimes you'll get a pair of um intended parents who say, well, can my therapist just do it, but without specialized training, not really. No, no, yeah, they're not going to help with the specifics of what you need really from that Right yeah, very interesting.
Speaker 2:So then I mean, I'm going to ask the question that you know that we were talking about before this. So I mean, I've been on several journeys myself and I've had a psychological evaluation every single time. The questionnaire like 300-question thing, like that's very new to me. Oh, the PA is it really?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, so I'm a PI or PAI.
Speaker 2:I've had four psychological um evaluations and I've only had to do that once and that was on my my most recent one.
Speaker 4:So and that's I mean I started my journeys in 2017. And I had to take it on all three.
Speaker 3:Oh, you did, Because I was going to say it's not new.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I had to take it on all three and that's like two decades ago.
Speaker 3:So I mean, the guidelines do say you are supposed to do it and most clinics are supposed to require it, as well as agencies. So if you didn't do it they were not following ASRM guidelines. And I don't. It's not a test. People think of it as it's test. It's really just an assessment we're trying to figure out. You know, your personality, where you are mentally like, how truthful you are. It's meant to just kind of give us a feel, for is this really something you're ready for in your life? More so than just the clinical interview. They kind of both of them together give us a much better picture than just one separately. Both of them together give us a much better picture than just one separately Right that?
Speaker 3:makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just like a brain quiz really. When I took it I was like these are easy, it's just about me Right, it asked you in so many.
Speaker 4:I mean, I remember when I did it was so long ago it had so many questions that were so very similar, but there was one or two little off lines Like wait, I just answered that. Wait, how did I answer that?
Speaker 3:one. So the reason for that is to see if you're being consistent. Because if it's inconsistent, then it's invalid right and maybe you're hiding something.
Speaker 2:So we're looking for consistency. Interesting. That's very interesting. And now with surrogacy journeys, you don't hear I mean, I don't hear a lot about joint sessions, but they seem like they're becoming more of a thing, which I really wish I had my third journey, but what is the like? What is the purpose? I can think of a purpose for myself why I personally would like a joint session.
Speaker 4:Can we? Can we define what a joint session is first?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Really go and lay yeah. So of course there's like a joint session If you're going to have like a Zoom call with your case manager and you know them. But this is different. This is like one done by a mental health professional, and so it's when intended parents and the gestational carrier and her partner, if she has one, all meet together and sometimes it's the first time that the intended parents are meeting the partner and that the partner's meeting the intended parents. And it's really just a way to bring in not just like the hard topics, like to really talk about them, but also to try to strengthen the bond before it even all begins.
Speaker 3:And then, yes, we do talk about the hard topics, but when you're, when it's done in this kind of setting, it's basically taking what you've already agreed to on the document and now saying it out loud to each other and how does it now feel. And you know it also gives us a way to talk about what do you expect in this journey? You know what's it like and it brings them to bond over who. They are right. So when you kind of see how they are interacting with their partner, how they're maybe interacting if a kid comes into the you know picture. You know just how their house is because you know picture. You know it just how their house is because you know they're all on zoom, just the way they talk to each other, the way they talk to me, the way they. It just brings up upon like a rapport that maybe hadn't been there or that doesn't come to much later in the pregnancy. So it takes away a lot of that awkwardness from the very beginning.
Speaker 3:And again I get to ask these hard questions whereas you know maybe they had the questions but they didn't want to ask what's your diet going to be like? What's the lifestyle going to be like? What are travel restrictions like? And we're actually talking about it now out loud to each other, which can be awkward, yeah, and so it's. You know a lot of people think, oh, it's meant to like make sure we're really a match and you know she's going to break us up. But that is not the point at all. We want to strengthen the bond. Also, if I talk about you know, how did you get to this place? To the IPs, you know it helps the gestational care understand like maybe what's happened for them, how hard this might have been. It gives them a better picture of what they're going into no-transcript.
Speaker 2:A big hard one to talk about like out loud. It's hard to like. Also, market down on the papers how you feel about like reduction and things like that. So I'm assuming that is probably a topic that you bring up 100%, 100%.
Speaker 3:All that, vaccinations, termination, what would you want to terminate for? How would it be? How would you guys communicate about it? How would you communicate after All of these things? Right, Because it can be a very awkward thing. Right, it can be very uncomfortable, and sometimes people are blindsided by it because they think, okay, well, it would only be, you know, very early on because they found out something really bad.
Speaker 3:Right, but things happen. You know, maybe you had the 20 week scan and they learned that the heart is growing outside of the body, and maybe and maybe the doctor says, oh look, we could do many surgeries after the child's born and we don't know if they'll be successful or not. And now that's a different gray area. And so it's not that I can bring up every single thing, but I can say, sometimes gray areas happen. You know, these are kind of gray areas, and both of you agree that in a gray area, usually this is what happens now is, you know they've matched well, and so you say something to the fact of you've agreed that the IPs have the decision in this, you know, if it's something like that, and then now she can say, yes, right, so although when it actually happens.
Speaker 3:It's a lot harder and a lot, you know, in this, the emotions are, way, you know, more difficult and that in those moments, you've talked about it. You've talked about what each of them need. Do they need space, you know? Do they want to communicate more about it? Like, do they want the caseworker? Do they need a mental health professional? They've already talked it out a little bit enough, so it doesn't feel, as you know, blindsided by, like what we all need in this moment, or you know what we agreed to.
Speaker 4:Yeah it, you are exactly right when you say you're not. You can talk about it and you can understand what you might say. But unless you're in that situation, you don't realize it, cause I had triplets for a couple right, and they wanted to reduce and I already signed my life away saying, yo yeah, they're baby, blah, blah, blah. No one ever thought we'd get pregnant with triplets, ever, right. And it came time to reduce three healthy babies and they wanted to go to two and I really felt pressured, um, that I couldn't really speak up because I already signed it away. That was not a topic that was discussed at all and luckily we carried all three because there was a something that happened and they looked at it as a sign. But you're right, I mean just emotions and just you're frustrated and you're angry and you're hurt and you're you just want to bring life Like that's. That was my big thing, you know, and we won't go and delve into that.
Speaker 3:But're exactly right, you, you can think how you're going to respond, but until you're in it, it may change and a lot of these gestational you know, gestational carers, look, they've had good pregnancies, right, so they think that it's not going to happen to them. You know, for good reason. But these things do happen. And at least if we said even in your case, right, at least if we had said like, if this up, how will we come together to discuss this Right?
Speaker 4:Right and we didn't come together. That was the sad part. And again it was 20, you know, 20 years ago. So we didn't come together. It was, you know, everybody was in their corner. It was yeah.
Speaker 2:It's something like this OK, so? So let's take this scenario Right. So you are addressing the possibility of this happening in a joint session, unfortunately, down the line a couple of weeks later, whatever it is, a couple of months later this does come about, and this is an actual thing that now has to occur. Are they sent? Are GC and intended parents like sent back to you to talk this through, or like no parents like sent back to you to talk this through?
Speaker 3:or like no, usually not, but they can, they have that option, and now they have a rapport with me and now they know I exist and so maybe they think you know what this is really hard for us to do on our own. Can we, you know, bring her back in, you know? So at least that's their option. So when we do the joint sessions there, it should be done before even contract, right, because you're really kind of getting to the harder topics before they even sign anything, so you can really talk about them in an open way and they can really understand what they want in the contract, as opposed to trying to hide behind just words or oftentimes the first time gestational carriers just thinking like she just kind of has to, you know, waive all her rights, right, everyone. Just pleasing everyone, you know in the beginning rights, right, everyone's just pleasing everyone, you know, in the beginning.
Speaker 3:So this it just brings some of these harder conversations at the very beginning. So at least it's been talked about and it's going to be a lot different if you say, if the gestational carrier says yes, openly, very out loud, to everyone in, you know, in the room, and says, yes, this, this will not be, you know, an easy decision for me, but yes, I would do it if you guys wanted me to. Then, if the time does come, they remember this is going to be really hard for her. Maybe we can find a way to support her. We know that this is going to be really hard for her. This isn't just, you know, a decision that she can easily do. We know she's suffering. What can we do to help? Okay, do we? We know she's suffering.
Speaker 2:What can we do to help? Okay, so say some cause, some. Sometimes tragedy happens in the in a journey and IPs and GC. The communication is either cut off, it's lacking. People are grieving in different ways If there is a huge divide, right, Can the GC call you directly, Like if she is not coping well, or like being able to like mentally figure this out and like navigate through it. She knows, like she's obligated to do you know things, or that this tragedy is happening. No matter what, what is her lifeline support to you? Yeah?
Speaker 3:Well, it pretty much it's cut off once we're done, but she can absolutely go to her agency and she can say you know, I would like to speak to that person, right, and you hope also that in gestational care contracts, now that they are actually putting in mental health professional benefits, right, so a lot of them are now putting in some money towards it, right, so that you hope it is going to be there for the, you know, for the gestational carrier if she needs it.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I mean she has every right to ask and even if it wasn't in the contract, right, she has. So I had a case once where she did have to terminate, um, she had to do a termination at 16 weeks and she was just heartbroken about it, heartbroken Again. She had signed the paperwork, she had said it's fine, but now, when it came down to it, she was felt attached and like how can I let these you know it was twins, how can I let these babies go, right? So she said you know, I need to talk to someone, I'm really having a hard time. And so they had no money in escrow. But basically the agency stepped in, asked IPs for some funds and I think if the IPs had said no, they still would have paid for it on their own right. So having just a few sessions to kind of talk it out is really important. So I think in that situation a gestational care should speak up and say I need some support.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree, I very much agree.
Speaker 4:Sometimes it's hard when you're especially when you're first time surrogate.
Speaker 3:You know it's like yeah, like am, I, like am. I going to be a problem, and it's like right and also why I'm asking to use the mental health benefits. Like oh, am I like right? Like the IP is looking at me as if, like oh, I'm the one who needs the help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, am I not going to qualify to do this again?
Speaker 3:That's why I think it's really important for agencies to say, hey, this is really normal for us to put mental health benefits, or even say, like we, we offer this, you know, once a month if you want to do it. So I think it's really important for them to open it up to the intended parents and say you know, we really encourage our gestational care to use mental health along the way, so that it doesn't feel like it's some kind of taboo thing. Agreed, agreed. Yes, very much.
Speaker 2:Very much so. So then you, so then the joint meeting and meeting with you really is just like a normalcy of it. Right, would be just the one and done, and then, if needed, throughout the journey, then maybe you're brought back in, and things like that.
Speaker 4:Right, and how long approximately? You're looking at 90 minutes. You're looking at trying to keep it within the hour.
Speaker 3:I would say it's typically about an hour. It can go over, depending on, like, how talkative each person is and how much they're really like bonding with each other. Sometimes it's a little bit more stiff. Sometimes you know, and if it is stiff too, that my job is to try to loosen it up a little bit, maybe tell some jokes, you know, like have everyone laugh at me. You know the whole point is to get them to bond. Right, we want them to bond. Yes, we talk about the hard things, but also we want them to feel good about this. Already, you Like, we want this to feel good. We talk about the communication. How much do we want to communicate? What feels okay, all these things.
Speaker 3:And I will ask Cargwell so if I hear a gestational carrier say to me I have a really busy life and you know I don't always answer on time and you know I'm going to try, but sometimes I don't and then in the meeting she says, oh, yeah, whenever you text me I'm going to answer, I'll say, wait, you know, I remember you telling me you had a really busy life, you know. So I can almost speak up for them. And the same thing for the IPS. But essentially what you want. The goal is I would do the evaluation so I get kind of a feel for what the gestational carrier's personality is like, what she wants, the thing she tells me separately. Okay, I meet the IPs, I hear what they say to me separately, cause I do, you know, the psychosocial consultation with them and then I bring them together and now I know what each person has already said and what each person wants and I can facilitate it in a way that feels comfortable for everybody.
Speaker 3:That makes sense.
Speaker 2:That makes sense and that's interesting to hear that you do psychological evaluations with intended parents on their own. None of my intended parents had to do a psychological evaluation, so not evaluation.
Speaker 3:So the different it's a consultation and the difference is yeah, but everyone says about you and I think that's intended parents. When they hear that, they always think, like, why should I be evaluated? I could be a parent, you know, and we're not evaluating and we are not determining if they could be parents. What we are doing is we are sharing these are the things that might come up. We are asking them what kind of communication do you want? Like, is there, is there a lifestyle you want her to have? Are there things that would bother you about her? What have you gone through in your journey that might trigger, be triggering if, like you know, this happens in hers, right? So we just kind of like really talk about the different things that could come up, really try to prepare them for what's to come.
Speaker 3:It's different when it's like a second time intended parent. You know, I think they know a lot more, but you know you can still, at least, if it's required, you still can at least ask a lot of questions like, well, what did you like about the first one? What didn't you like? What can, what can be better? You know all those kinds of things. So, but yes, they are supposed to do, one to really just kind of. And also we want to make sure that they understand what the gestational carrier needs, right, we want to make sure that this is a journey that is great for everyone involved. So we want to explain to them certain things.
Speaker 3:Like, maybe they come in thinking that the gestational carrier is supposed to do everything. They ask all the time, you know, and we're like, actually she also has a life right. Or maybe the opposite. They think like whatever she wants, whatever she wants If she doesn't want to talk to us. You know, I've had that before too and we're like, no, no, that's not how it works, right, she wants you involved. Sometimes I'll have intended parents think like I don't want to overburden her right, and they don't even realize the gestational carrier wants them to ask questions, wants, wants them to ask questions, wants them to be involved.
Speaker 2:Yes, agreed, that's very sweet. I like, I like the. It's like you're like a buffer, and I like that because it's you're going to force the conversations and like not force the bond, but like basically lay a path for it to happen in like a very controlled manner, rather than being like wait, wait, wait, being like wait and like, rather than somebody walking away thinking like over, I'm an overthinker, so if somebody says something and they didn't mean it like that, I'm gonna take it a hundred different ways and I'm gonna like go into the night and be like and like stress myself out and think that they meant something else so right, exactly right, and if you kind of know their personality a little bit going in, or even hear something you know from, know from what their partner says.
Speaker 3:So maybe the partner says I know she's telling you right now, she's going to answer you right away, but I, you know, I guarantee sometimes it's gonna take an hour and now they have an idea or you know they might say just so, you know my wife, she writes novels, so just expect really long's huge yeah just a lot of different things can come out of it that you wouldn't expect. Or they bond over a movie they watched you know um just it really just helps bring them together, yes, so are the questions?
Speaker 2:do they overlap, like meaning, like the, the, the conversations that you're having with the gc, what you know, one-on-one with her, and the conversations that you're having with the ips, one-on-one with them? Now you have them together because when I we talked about this a little bit before we started so I've only ever done one joint session and this was this therapist first time ever doing a joint session so she was like I have no idea what to ask, so I'm just gonna ask the same things that I asked in your guys's like one-on-ones.
Speaker 2:And I was like okay, sure, yeah, that makes sense makes sense, like I like, like I know, like you know so it was very basic. It was like, and she basically kind of went over the the things that, like, we agreed to in the contract per se, like oh, how do you feel about?
Speaker 4:you know, right there, it should be done before the contract. Right, that's the big. I think that might be the biggest difference. It should. This joint session should be done before the contract. Yes, it should be done, rachel, right when you just said your contracts were done.
Speaker 2:Well, we didn't sign, but we had them, right, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, was it helpful.
Speaker 2:The joint session.
Speaker 3:Yeah, did it do anything?
Speaker 2:Um, oh, that's a loaded question. Because of that whole journey I didn't go on a journey with them the joint session itself, I think because it was so like not organized. I don't think we benefited from it, because we had already talked, we had talked twice before then and it seemed more organic. And then with this, it was like we all felt really weird because, like, the person that we were talking with had no idea what she was doing.
Speaker 3:So it just kind of made it more like like, right, it sounds like maybe she just dived into these harder questions, whereas I think part of it is to just you know, I try to open it with just saying, like you know, how did you get here? Like, what do you guys know about each other already? Maybe, you know, try to bring up something a little bit more casual before you dive right into the harder questions. You know, if I already know something about each party, I could say it. But then some of the harder things, so, like you said, yes, some of it is like overlapping of what we have already asked, but just making sure now everyone states it out loud together.
Speaker 3:And then some of it is other things, such as you know the diet and the lifestyle, but like what, what does that mean? Eating healthy? Like how, what does healthy really mean? Will you know someone be checking in on it or not checking in on? Do they want to trust you know, like these kinds of things.
Speaker 3:And then also to bring up harder things, such as hey, you know she's been on a journey before and she had to terminate at, you know, 16 weeks and that was really hard for her.
Speaker 3:Did you know that? You know telling the IPs, kind of letting them know where she's been, you know, because maybe she doesn't want to bring it up herself, but it's. I think it's an important thing to bring up Right. So, and sometimes I do bring up like things that are uncomfortable for everyone, such as you know I know you've maybe read this, but I want to just make sure it's okay and you understand that her partner vapes and now he does it outside, and then he say, and he can kind of build that rapport and say, hey, I get it, this is your baby and I am going to respect it and I will always do it outside Right, like almost like a man to man or you know kind of thing. So I think these kinds of things again help build the trust and make everyone not feel like there's some mysterious thing possibly going on that they don't know about.
Speaker 2:Right, I do like that and I'm and I'm in. I mean it's funny because with my current intended parent I we didn't do a joint session but we have such great communication and we're very transparent and we talk about anything. But it would be. But she only just recently met my husband. So the joint session would be interesting because I've been on a journey with her for over a year.
Speaker 2:So the joint session I, I, I see a lot of benefits from it and a lot of me really wishes that I had it and one of my journeys, because I think that it would have gone a lot smoother and a lot better. Because you're basically just opening dialogue, like it's just like, hey, like I'm not, you know, I'm like the overthinker and thing like that. So it's oh, just because you read something one way, I like I hate text, like that. So it's oh, just because you read something one way, I like I hate text and so like, when you read something one way, you're going to read it, you know seven different ways, whereas if you explain it and you have the emotion behind it and you can see their body language and everything like that.
Speaker 2:I think it definitely puts a different ease.
Speaker 3:Right, and you could say I'm not great at texting, but I'm happy to do a FaceTime every three days.
Speaker 3:You know, even if it's just five minutes, all these things you can say out loud and that makes it feel better. The other thing is I try to tell you know when people do sometimes have pushback about this, and when people do, I try to say look, the worst case scenario is that you guys just have an hour to bond and talk about fun things, and that's the worst case, right? So fine, it feels like a wasted hour for you, but at least you guys got to joke around and you know, appease the clinic and best case is you really start to learn about each other and you really grow a bond and you talk about the hard things in a different way than you did prior. So if they already did a lot of this, you know, then again, the worst case scenario is now they have an hour that they get to all four of them If there's a partner involved or, you know, if it's not a single person, like, bond together. Yeah.
Speaker 3:When are you going to really get to do that with everyone having busy lives Right when you?
Speaker 4:say you get pushback, are you getting it from both sides or is it more on the GC side?
Speaker 3:No, you mostly get it from the IPs, if anything. So the GCs are totally fine with it, the IPs, and I'll tell you why. Sometimes you get pushed back Because, first of all, they've already done so much you know, and it's like this is just one more hurdle they have to get through. And it's like why should we have to do this? We already know her, we already talked to her. And then the other time that you'll get pushback for it is if it's a friend or a cousin, someone they know.
Speaker 3:So let's say, but to be honest, that's sometimes the most important time to do it, because if it's a friend or a cousin or a sister, there is maybe a family power dynamic. There is already expectations that each person is going to have that probably never said out loud. And now is the time for you to open up about these expectations so we can say wait a minute, hold up, also to talk about what are we going to say to the child later, because now you really are very much involved in their life. So these are conversations that they think well, we know each other, we don't have to do this, but that's sometimes when the worst communication can end up happening. Right, agreed.
Speaker 2:So then, is the therapist that is conducting the joint session already representing one or the other parties, or is the joint session meeting meant to be conducted by a neutral party? But it's just you, the whole time.
Speaker 3:Right, right, hopefully it's not always. Um, you know, it can be done differently. Sometimes maybe the IPs already did a consultation before because they got rematched, or sometimes they don't have to do one, so it's not always Also just by state licensure. Sometimes there's an issue with everyone doing it, but you hope that all three can do it. It is the best case scenario when all three are done by the same person, because then there is everyone. Everyone already built the rapport with me, so they don't feel like I'm taking a side. They think, okay, she's just here to take both our sides because we already talked to her and we hopefully liked her, and then we you know the GC did. So everyone already feels like some closeness to me in a way. I've already helped to build the rapport, so they trust me to now navigate it together with them. Yeah, I think that's ideal.
Speaker 2:And where does the request for this joint session come from? Because in the beginning you said clinics. You know sometimes want certain things. Is this an agency request or is this a clinic request?
Speaker 3:So okay, so the ASRM guidelines do put this in there that a joint session should happen. Agencies will sometimes have it in their you know requirements of things that have to be done, but often it's because the clinic required it. So it's the majority of the time that it's done is because it was a clinic requirement, and so the agencies follow suit. Or if it's an independent journey, the clinic says, hey, you guys have to do this first. So that's typically. But there are some agencies, especially now more and more, are starting to require it on their own, even if the clinic doesn't, because I think they're seeing the benefit of it.
Speaker 4:I think we're going to see more and more. I think it's going to become a standard. I really do.
Speaker 3:It just makes the entire ride more smooth from the very beginning.
Speaker 2:And it makes just sense, like each do their own, like each each talk about their own feelings on their own and then if, especially if it's just with one person, then that person, like yourself, can just come and be like hey, like I think we should talk this out, because you guys are somewhat similar but somewhat not so like, let's just like figure this out now rather than when it actually happens and emotions and feelings are heightened yeah, I, I mean even just the subtlest things, and so these these subtle things happen the entire time, right?
Speaker 3:So like I may be naming the big things, but there's just little subtleties that I can help kind of smooth over a little bit, yeah.
Speaker 2:Everybody talks differently, everybody. You know, some people are more articulate with their words, some people just kind of word vomit I tend to word vomit and then I, and then I hear it afterwards but it's like a delay. So I'm like let me put some context behind it, but by then it's already in their head and it's like wait, hold on rewind. So yeah, that's I mean. Yeah. So I mean I think I know the answer. But I also just want to ask because I'm if you're a new surrogate, I don't want them to assume who is fronting the the bill for this oh yes.
Speaker 3:So I mean, yes, look, at the end of the day we know who's fronting the bill. It's the intent of parents, right, always they're fronting, they're paying every bill. But, um, oftentimes it's like in the package. So if you know the agency's already paying for all the you know evaluations, evaluations and consultations, then they are paying for that too. Of course, at the end of the day it's coming from the IP's pocket, but they're not seeing it directly. If it's intended you know, intended, I mean independent journey then you know they are paying the fee directly towards me. So, or you know, sometimes it is kind of coming directly towards me from them, but from the escrow, so they don't see it as. But basically, the intended parents are paying the cost at the end of the day.
Speaker 3:And so that's also some of the reason there's pushback right. It's like here's one more thing we have to pay for. And look at the end of the day, the price of that is a.
Speaker 4:You know this is some yes, it's trouble, like compared to everything they're paying and so I, but I get it right, like why even pay anything?
Speaker 3:but I will say one thing I'm pretty sure, like maybe I don't know, maybe once I don't. I can't even think of a time where every single time they say the same thing to me again. This was so helpful and lovely. I'm so glad we did this. Oh, I'm so glad.
Speaker 3:I've even had, like the last time I did, I even had someone apologize to me, said I felt like I was kind of like bitchy Um, that's what she said to me and I'm I want to apologize for that, because I just thought this was going to be a waste of my time and this was actually really great. Wow, wow, I am amazed.
Speaker 4:Right, that gets out there as more people do joint sessions and surrogates talk and I piece and people just, yeah, this is normal, this is a good thing. Nobody's judging you Like you're not about judging. This is when everybody hears about psychological tests, like people just get it in their heads. I was there a long time ago, but now it's like yeah, talk to me, figure out my nuances, figure out what's up with me, yeah.
Speaker 3:And even when I'm doing evaluations, I'm not looking for someone perfect. I don't want someone perfect. I want someone who is human.
Speaker 2:Human yes. Right exactly, and I think, a lot of the times I mean I can't speak from an intended parent's point of view, but as a surrogate gestational carrier it's very like we all have this fear in the back of our head, like what if I say the wrong thing Now, I'm done. I met these wonderful people, I'm out. If they find out something about me, I'm out. And it's, and more times than not, the thing that you're afraid for someone to find out.
Speaker 3:It's not.
Speaker 2:It's not going to disqualify you, but there's this fear that's been built in us.
Speaker 3:That's like and sometimes the agency perpetuates that if you're like just, you know, never make sure that they, they know this is completely altruistic, that you're just doing this because you love, love being pregnant, and you know, and that's look, we know that there is a financial component. You know, we're not, we're not naive, you know like.
Speaker 4:But I did my third one to pay for nursing school, that I am 100% okay saying that. I'm 100% okay saying that.
Speaker 3:Great. It's like we're not naive about this now. Yes, Maybe there's people who will do an altruistic journey, and that's great. I love that. But also it does benefit gestational peers and there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2:No, no it's not, there's, there's. I always say, if, if it's okay to be a nanny and to be compensated to watch your child earthside, then it's okay to treat me as a nanny pre-earthside. So the compensation it doesn't. I don't understand. I never understand why that's always a topic.
Speaker 3:And I will say most intended parents. They're fine with it, like, and in fact, after it, I think they're actually grateful that they got to help. So I'm actually grateful that I got to give back, Right, yeah, yeah, we hear that.
Speaker 2:We hear that a lot too when we talk to intended parents, they're like nope, we're happy to you. Know they're doing something that's priceless, like it's. You know you're doing it with compensation.
Speaker 3:It literally helps everybody Right. You don't have to go into it, even if she's getting just that feeling that she gets to see, you know that she helped the family. That's also something she's gaining. Yep, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4:And it just spreads itself out like a fan, because grandparents are being made from right and aunts and uncles and on the side of the surrogate if it is going for a down payment of a house or what have you maybe putting herself through school, whatever it is that's going to benefit her for the rest of her life, like this isn't just a one and done, it's going to benefit families for years years Right. Yeah, so it's phenomenal to me. But yeah, okay, back to psychology. Sorry.
Speaker 2:Do you have any advice? Like, do you have any advice for people that might be like nervous or this is their, this is their first journey? Like either on on either side.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I mean, admit you're nervous. That, I think, is the best thing, right, when you come on and you say I'm feeling nervous, that already kind of like takes it down a notch and lets the therapist know that this is really hard, you know, and then helps me to understand, to guide it in maybe a different way. So I already know if I'm going with a gestational carrier, like doing an evaluation, who's done this maybe two or three times, I know she's probably going to show up differently than the first time, right, and so I can, I can be more gentle in the beginning. I can build that rapport first. You know I want them to feel safe with me, that I'm not here to judge them, that I'm here just to make sure that this is the right time in the right place for them and then to guide the conversation when it's a joint session, to just really guide them together so that they feel so good and so strong at the start so that even though things might happen that might, you know, fracture the bond a little bit, that they know they can recover. They know there was a strong bond to begin with.
Speaker 3:If you think about like a relationship, right, when two people meet and they're dating, if they start off strong and they have a good start, then when things happen, when ruptures happen, it's easier to come back than if their starts, you know, was like a little rocky and awkward and you know, maybe I don't know they had like some kind of weird hookup in the bathroom and then that, you know, turned into a relationship right after, without any. You know, foundation Right. So we're building the foundation so that when cracks happen, you know they remember that there's a foundation first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Very true. I, as I'm, as you're talking, you're like you're saying all these things and I'm like, oh my gosh, I should have asked this question first, before I asked the happy question. But like, okay, so red flags for you when it comes to because I feel like there's going to be red flags when you talk to a gestational surrogate, because, again, you're not evaluating the intended parents, you're evaluating is this like the right you said the right team, the right time, the right place for her? Are there anything that comes up like that, that would come up, that you're like you know what? This isn't the right time for you.
Speaker 3:Oh, for sure For a gestational carrier.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, and I hate when that happens, right, and it is rare, because I think agencies do a really good job of screening.
Speaker 3:But look, there are things that come up sometimes that you think this is not the right time.
Speaker 3:If someone started this right, but then, as she's going through it, her partner cheats on her and now they're thinking about breaking up and the house is like tumultuous and you know there's maybe a custody battle going on, you know that it doesn't mean she can't one day do this, but this is not the right time for her to do it, right, right. So if you see a intended parent who is going to be very invasive or who's saying to me like well, I kind of want her to live in our back house, or doing some weird things, like showing up when they're not supposed to to the screening because they want to like be so involved, you know, and they never even said it like. Or saying I'm going to make sure she can't eat this and I want to know every day what she's eating, you know, I think then you have to say, okay, let's step back and let's do a little bit of education first and make sure, because we want to keep the gestational carrier safe too. Right For sure.
Speaker 3:Because that's a lot of pressure, yeah, and I think that's the thing I think gestational carriers go into this thinking like we're against them and for the IPs, which I think maybe sometimes feels like that with the agencies, right, but that's not our goal. Our goal is to make sure this is the right fit for everybody.
Speaker 4:Yeah yeah, I don't know why they're all not making it happen. I think this needs to be in every single, whether it's a single intended parent and a gestational carrier or two parents like I. It needs to be in every single journey, like hands down. Sorry, I think it does the guideline.
Speaker 2:I'm shocked to hear it's in the guidelines and it's not being right, being like yes, has to happen, Because there are a lot of things on there that are like no, those have to happen. So you would think that this would be one of them.
Speaker 3:One of those that can be skipped.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I'm hoping eventually you know, maybe the next years or so it won't be skipped, because I think it's invaluable. I really really do think it's invaluable. I know it's another hour or an hour and a half out of everybody's life. It's another check thing that you have to do before you can move on. But you're creating life for someone else, like it's a big, big deal. It's not just oh, let me get pregnant, carry this baby and I'll just here you go. That's not what this is. It's people's lives are at stake. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right and why not start strong? Instead of try to hope that that builds as it, which you know often it does and it does, and it can still be beautiful journey, you know, without, without this right. But why not start it off with that strong foundation and just get a feel for how their mannerisms, how they talk to each other? Are they casual? Are they more serious? All these things are just. Even if you're not like vocalizing it, you're noticing things by interacting with them. Yes, agreed.
Speaker 4:I agree If somebody takes the lead in the conversation and the other one's maybe not as accessible, and because that sometimes happen, really just one parent wants to get all the information and the other one it's relayed to them later because maybe of their job or whatever, and they're just not as accessible. Know that.
Speaker 3:Know that right, and you touched on this a little bit before. Sometimes the most helpful part of it is even just the partner gets to see what's. You know, sometimes they don't really. They're just like, yes, signing off on it. They're like, yes, my, you know, my wife really wants to do this. I've read enough about it or I talked enough about it, and so I get it. But now they get to really see the other side of you know, they get to maybe hear a story that that feels touching for them. They start to now feel a lot more involved too and that also helps them be even more supportive for the gestational care, because now they really see there's people on the other side of this that really care and that are really thankful. So I think all that is super helpful for them to see.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh yeah, I think so for sure. I mean, they're not strangers anymore.
Speaker 2:Like I said, I've been on this journey with my IM for over a year, at like a year and a half, and he just met her, like not that long ago, and it was like they were like, oh hi, we never met. And I'm like, but y'all know me, like right, we should have met, right, but there was just never a, there was never a session, there was never anything where the both of us needed to, where it was required that the both of us needed to be here, and so it just we just went off my schedule.
Speaker 3:so and think about too, for for intended parents how much better they will feel when they know who the partner is right that they know, maybe the partner is a nice guy, whereas I don't know what they're picturing.
Speaker 3:You know, maybe they're picturing something not so nice, or maybe they're picturing the nicest guy, and then now they actually are freaked out because they see that he's like super aggressive with her and yells, you know. And now there's an opportunity at least to say this doesn't feel right. So I mean, look, that doesn't really happen, but every once in a while it could. I just think that knowing what you're getting into with both people is so important.
Speaker 4:Oh and also the kids meeting the surrogates child or children, because I mean I all moms, I can't really speak for them, but I'm going to put a generalization out there. We take pride in our children, Like mine are all adults and I still take pride in my kids, Like so they're clean clothes and they're and they're cute and they're funny and they're personable, Like that's. These surrogates helped shape and mold them, so they're going to help do the same thing for the baby they're carrying by keeping it safe, If not safer, if that's a way to do it. But I, when I carried, it was always like, oh my God, these are not my babies, I'm not my baby, I, oh God no. But if it were mine, like it'd be like okay, okay, I can do that, or I can and not, not negative things, no, like.
Speaker 2:I could have a. I could have an extra Coke today, coca-cola today, you know like, but with like a surrogate babe. It's like no, it's not going to do any of the caffeine, that's good.
Speaker 3:Right. And imagine too, if you know they're on a call with a joint session and the gestational carrier is constantly talking about how their kid did this or they're, you know, they kind of like joke about their kid a lot or they bring up their kid more than now the IPs have a clue, ask about their kids. You know the gestational care likes to talk about her kids. That's a way to bond, whereas if she really just never really talks about them, you know, even if I bring something up like what is your schedule like with your kids, and she just kind of like brushes over it, now the IPs know she's a little bit more, you know, protective of her kids right now. Again, like it gives an idea of how to talk about things Right.
Speaker 3:Or you know I can bring up things too, like, again, this goes like there's so many things right, like, let's say that I intend to parents, maybe she's had miscarriages every time. You know, sometime before the 12 week scan, right, and so I can say you know what will it be like for you when she goes to the six week or the nine week? You know, like, is it something that feels comfortable that you want to like be a part of Do you not want to? And she might say you know what? I don't, I'm not sure I'm going to be one apart, I'm going to I don't know. And that's great Cause. Now the gestational carrier knows not to be offended if she says I just can't right now, right, right.
Speaker 4:Cause that could be. That's how it's misinterpreted. That's right if it's not talked about, and then it's right from the start.
Speaker 3:Now you're not. You know you had this like weird thing and so now you don't know how to like navigate it. And then later on, maybe at the 20 week, you know the intended parent wants to be more involved and now the social care is confused because I thought she didn't want to be right again. All these things we've talked about from the very beginning.
Speaker 2:Now we're on the same page yeah, yeah, but it helps, especially if both parties are first timers or if one's a first timer, to have someone like you to bring up these questions, because you know the things to bring up, you know the things to talk about, you know the things to address, because as you're saying that I'm like oh that's interesting.
Speaker 2:That happened in mine literally never clicked until right this second, Because it was just never talked about, and then the baby was here. So we were all like woohoo baby's here, Like we're happy now, Like so interesting Right.
Speaker 3:Because the gestational carrier, she goes into this thinking this is going to be celebratory, Everyone's going to get so excited, I'm going to be lovely. And maybe she doesn't realize you know the pain that the intended parents have maybe been through already and so maybe she feels, you know, overly enthusiastic where the IPs are not matching that at all. And again, now, if we talked about it already, she already knows what to expect. It's not a surprise why my IPs are a little bit, you know, reserved Right, Yep.
Speaker 4:Wow, this is going to be incredibly helpful, I think in more ways than one. Like, and I'm like I just if a surrogate or gestational carrier is just like oh my gosh, I have to do another session or I have to do something, what are they looking for? Like, I think this is going to just squall all that stuff.
Speaker 3:It's just curious for you, cause you said to me you thought maybe the gestational carrier was one who would push back. What, why do you? Why did you think that? Is it something that you thought maybe you would push back on? I?
Speaker 4:did push back on it A hundred percent. I pushed back on psych evals.
Speaker 3:Yep the evals they're not a joint session or just the evals.
Speaker 4:I never got offered a joint session because it was so long ago, but I pushed back on the on a normal evaluation, you post back.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I did. And here's why let me get to. Why the first one? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That's what I was. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. When we got to the third one, um, I kind of knew the ropes right. I'd already I just did a triplet pregnancy. I was like we can just get this done and I'm like you already have my. I went with the same agency, you already have it from before and I just, and I, I did. I pushed back a little bit. I had to get another one. It was okay, whatever, here we go, but I just wanted to move Cause I had a timeline. I'm happy, I am.
Speaker 1:I can say that I had a time but you almost died in that journey.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you should have had a psychological evaluation.
Speaker 4:How did we know that was going to?
Speaker 2:happen. How did we know that?
Speaker 4:was going to happen.
Speaker 2:No, I know, but I'm just saying if that was, if that's what happened in your second journey and on your third journey you pushed back for a psychological evaluation after you basically like had to have a blood transfusion and everything like that, Like yeah that's fine.
Speaker 3:So on your second, when you had to have the blood transfusion, third yeah, it was triplets and all the placenta stuck and I yeah.
Speaker 4:So it doesn't wait.
Speaker 3:but so you know right, you know that you're okay to go on the third one, because you're saying why do I do it? I know I'm okay, but not everyone else knows that. Correct.
Speaker 4:And not the intended parents, wouldn't have known that. So had we had a joint session, that stuff could have come up. But I was like being very defensive, like Nope, I can do this. My ut doctor said everything's great, I'm cleared, let's go. Yeah, now, seeing everything that's happened before and I'm seeing all of this through the podcasts we do and all the stories we hear, this is invaluable. Joint session, like, honestly, this needs to be pushed for and put in everybody's journey. I, it's invaluable. I, how could it not be? I, yeah, I don't see anything negative about it, I just don't just like time consuming. That's it.
Speaker 3:Right Like yeah, I don't see anything negative about it, I just don't. It's just time consuming. That's it really Like.
Speaker 2:Rachel said the worst that happens is that you guys get to know each other a little bit more and it wasted an hour of your life, right, but? And you?
Speaker 4:have a buffer, you have a person who's like the intermediate, the mediator. That's huge Cause you can honestly your journeys. You got on zoom calls and your agency jumped off and it was just you guys and you guys were talking. Yeah, my psychological.
Speaker 2:So, oh, you know what? Actually, my third journey. Now that you mentioned that, the reason it didn't pop into my head is because the my, the psychologist that was there. She was there for two minutes and then she left and jumped off and that was the worst journey I've ever had you know that's very unethical.
Speaker 3:I hope that wasn't supposed to be a joint session I don't know what it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know what it, because also the case manager was on there with us, but the psychologist was there with us too, and it was before contracts and it was after, like my personal psychological evaluation.
Speaker 3:So they was. It was the just like uh, the psych colleges. Were they like um contracted or were they an employee of the agency?
Speaker 2:no, they said that they were a third party, but it's the only year then they work with very, very weird.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's, and I only remember that because she like texted real fast goes, you want to come up and meet them. And I was like I went upstairs and like I got on and said oh, oh, hey, how you doing Like cause you were solo, you were by yourself for that Almost.
Speaker 3:I think about you know even if you do that, like I get why some people say, well, they'll just talk, you know themselves in the beginning. But what if it's two really shy people or you know two again people pleasers and they don't want to say some up the hard things, right? I mean, even I don't love doing it. It's not like I'm like, hey guys, let's all talk about termination, this is not like that. But I know it's my job and I know I do it well. I know I can navigate it well, so that's my purpose, right. And you do it in such a safe space.
Speaker 4:I keep saying the word safe in my head going. I would need this If I were to do it. I would need this joint session to just feel good. Going in just okay, things are cool, but also the comfort that comes with it.
Speaker 2:Okay, the comfort that comes with it, Cause I'm an experienced surrogate. So, and because we do this podcast and I know what what kind of goes on but if you're a new surrogate.
Speaker 2:I think what sticks in the mind of psychologists, like having to like go and talk to them, even if it's a joint session, it's like what are they going back and telling the agency? Like what am I, are they my teacher? Like am I being told on? Like things like that. And so I'm just going to like bluntly ask is that what happens? Like right.
Speaker 3:So what we do, we write a report and in the report we will only put things that we think are very relevant to you know. So if we hear something that is completely unrelevant, that maybe they went through and I don't think it's relevant to the journey, there's no need for me to say. But if something happened, like sexual trauma or something I won't, I won't explicitly say what happened, you know to her. I won't explicitly say what happened, you know to her. But what I will say is she had experienced, maybe, sexual trauma. She worked it out, she had therapy. I'm, you know it's not a concern, right? So I don't need to put a bunch of details, but I do need to say something.
Speaker 3:Or if there's some kind of legal battle going on with the you know husband with his work right, it's, it's, it's could possibly cause some kind of conflict, and it's not to say she can't now do this, but I think it's important for the agency to be aware this is going on. So it's not that we're trying to out them, we just want to make sure she's supported, right? So if they know this is going on, maybe they check in on her about that, if they're going to do this right now, or they look into it a little bit with with the attorney to make sure that you know it's okay to keep going Like. We just want to protect everyone, so we're not trying to eliminate. I don't want to eliminate people unless I really think that it's not good for them, that this is going to cause a lot of conflict, right, Okay?
Speaker 4:And at that point a professional is the one who decided, or along with the agency, or who just yeah, that this wasn't a good thing, and I'm sure it doesn't happen a whole lot, but when it does, it probably needed to, like that's I mean, right.
Speaker 3:If anything we try to, we want this to work. We would hate going back and saying this isn't great. You know, that's I. That's like the worst feeling, you know. I know that this listen. Sometimes I'll have a gestational carrier. This is rare too, but it does happen where she is kind of like skirting her partner coming and kind of being like vague about it and their partner has to be there for that clinical interview. If there's a partner, I cannot in good faith say yeah, you know I'm not breaking up families here, jeez, oh wow, but it's always in the best interest of the surrogate whether they
Speaker 3:realize that, at the moment or not.
Speaker 2:Wow, this has been wonderful. Yeah, this has been great. I really do hope that this is like 100%, like instilled in every part of every journey. This becomes part of every single journey.
Speaker 4:Right. It becomes every journey. It needs to. It needs to. Is there anything we forgot? Is there anything we didn't touch on? That you want to, that you want to put in? Do you want to touch on it?
Speaker 3:I guess the only thing is you know, if you are a gestational carrier, you know, try not to think of us, as you know your tattletale, you said, or you know the, the teacher who's going to get you in trouble, like we're, we're actually on your side here too. You know, we want this to be like really great for you, like I will also teach them how to advocate for themselves if I see that they are like. I had one recently who who said I, I will terminate if they want. The only way I would not terminate is if my life is on the line. And I'm thinking wait a minute, that sound right? I'm like you're telling me that if your life is on the line, she's like I have to protect the baby. And I was like do you, do? You think you have to say that? And she's like well, yeah, isn't that what you have to say? And I was like no, you do not have to say that. I was like absolutely not right.
Speaker 3:So like sometimes, because you look, I know that everyone goes down the facebook rabbit hole and so many gestational carriers already have watched tiktok videos and they know so much about it and oftentimes they have a great agency who tells them all about this stuff. But that's not always the case. Sometimes you get people who really are a lot more. You know what's the word I'm looking for. They're a lot more. Yeah, I didn't want to say a little bit, because they're not naive, they're just. They're just.
Speaker 2:Maybe you know not as well versed, yet right right, they, they.
Speaker 3:The idea was great. Maybe they saw an ad, but they're not well versed yet in what it's really about. So that you know at least. I'm here to tell them a little bit more about what it's about, what, what to expect, what you know, rights they have, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:Oh goodness, Now if people I have one more question Go If they are doing an independent, if an intended parent comes to you and they're like we're doing an independent journey, can people just reach out to you without going with like an agency and like a clinic? Of course, of course, Okay, and if it's independent journey, do you recommend to them that you also do a joint?
Speaker 3:session. Yes, for independent journeys. I say, you know, I might even say that if I'm going to do the evaluation, I also require you to do a joint session. Sure, because that's best practices. And so they might say, yeah, I don't want to go with you.
Speaker 4:Okay, okay, well, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, where can they reach you Like? Where, where?
Speaker 3:can people find you Um rachelgoldbergtherapycom or rachelgoldbergtherapy on Instagram.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I found you very easily. Yes, and it was a wealth of information on there. I was like, oh my gosh, she is. This is like all about infertility and pregnancy and postpartum and all the issues, and I was intrigued because I was like, how and you already answered it in the beginning but how did you navigate that Like and get there? Cause we've talked to some people who it was, after they got their, their, you know, and they were like I kind of like this specialty and then they kind of went that route, but it looked like you just went the whole way.
Speaker 3:It was cool, yes, nice, I yeah, I have a lot, yeah, I have a lot of posts on, you know, different feelings that come up again.
Speaker 2:I try to concentrate on the emotional side of it, because I think that's something that's often people don't talk about is the emotional side of it all yeah and as she was just saying something, but like say, I'm the surrogate and I'm having, I'm having my session with you, but I have some questions that I'm kind of like afraid to ask the agency or I'm not. Please ask me.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, can I ask?
Speaker 3:you yeah, please ask me. I always say all the time I I say, is there any questions for me? And I ask you like several times, trying to really say like it's okay, you can ask me. But still often I think they feel like they can't. Yeah, and I understand. But you know, I really try to make it a very comfortable thing. So I asked them from the very beginning. I'll say are you nervous? And they'll usually say I am. I'm like, ah, don't be nervous. And then I'll throw in a little, you know, in. I'll try to build a rapport like I want them to. I want them to come away from this thinking like, oh, that wasn't so bad right yeah, exactly and you know I've I've talked to a couple, I've talked every journey.
Speaker 2:It's been a different, um, it's been a different psychologist. And the ones that are always start off kind of like with the joke or like lighten the mood, yeah, it always just like puts me at ease right away, whereas the other ones like okay, so like this and that, and it's like oh my god, all right to start off right on those like questions.
Speaker 3:That's right. Tell me about who you are and like why you do this like it's like, oh, okay yeah, I think the funniest or not the funniest, the hardest one.
Speaker 2:The hardest question I got was like so describe yourself in three words. I'm like, oh okay, do I have to like can we? That was like the first question that they said they didn't ask my name.
Speaker 3:That's a tough question. I'm not even sure how I would. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah so it started off very stressful, but no talking to you has been. Yeah, this has been great very calming, very easy, and I I mean I love it all and the fact that I hope they always feel that way with me. I, I hope everyone always comes back and goes.
Speaker 3:that was easy, that was fun.
Speaker 4:You kind of have that demeanor Like you're calm, you're casual, you're wearing a nice little sweater, you look all cozy, like I'm just like wow, I just want to go and have some coffee with her, Like I just.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what I hope. It feels like we're just talking about your life, retro life. Well, you know what, how you hope this journey is going to go. You know what the expectations are?
Speaker 4:yeah because you got to talk to somebody.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, yeah sometimes we can laugh about the shots.
Speaker 4:You know how they feel like you know just yeah, like yes, it's very serious, and it it is very seriously, I don't take it lightly at all, but also like we can, you know, we can also smile yeah, for sure, exactly Cause, hopefully, in the end this is a happy, happy thing and we're all coming to the end result of a baby for a family that maybe there wasn't going to be a family and also when I, you know, one thing I didn't say is one thing that I talk about is what do they want this to look like at the end?
Speaker 3:You know, oftentimes things are just like IPs leave the hospital and nobody knows what to do after that. You know, right. So let's let me talk about it right now. Like, how do you guys want to end this? Like, you know, is it a goodbye at the hospital? Can we talk on zoom later? Can the kids, you know, meet the baby? Like yeah, it's like I'm asking the question for them and now it's like, oh well, we talked about this, we know that her kid wants to meet the baby, so we're going to try to make that happen, even if, if it's over zoom, right, yeah, again, it's been talked about because if she, if the IPs leave the GC, doesn't want to reach out and say can my kids, you know, right, right, right.
Speaker 4:Cause they're going to be busy having their new baby and they probably don't want the extra germs and all that it's. It's a different. They're now parents and they have a different mindset sometimes when they're IPs, versus now we're literally parents. Yeah, and I got to respect that. I do have to respect it. So if it's brought up and it's talked about, at least people maybe have an understanding of what it might it might happen. I remember one of mine. It was like they had to. They had to send me a picture every six months, like it was like they had to. And I'm like, yeah, no, if you don't want to, like if we're not that close, then forget it. Like yeah, and it fizzled out. They didn't abide by the contract and I was just like you know, that's fine, we'll just it's fine, but yeah, so it's come a whole, a long way in two decades.
Speaker 3:It's really yeah, I mean I've listened to some of yours and from what I can tell that you guys have had some very interesting journeys yeah, don't yeah yeah, but you know, you learned from, you learned from them and yes
Speaker 2:like I'm lucky in the sense that I learned from her three before I started my first one, and then I learned from all of mine, and so now I'm very like this is what I do know, I want my contract. This is the things I don't care about, these are the things that I do want to happen in this journey. These are the things that I don't. So, unfortunately, it does also just take experiencing it yourself, if you know, if you don't hear other stories, to know, oh wait, that should be a boundary. Oh wait, no, that's okay, I'm cool with that one.
Speaker 3:It's, it's very different, and you know this was about the joint session, but you know you asked me to like what I would say in the evaluation. So if they haven't matched it cause, a lot of agencies which I love when they do this haven't matched yet they send me the evaluation first and then I will. You know, maybe not in the report but I'll give them a little of a side. But I think they would be well matched with someone like this Cause, you know, I know I got to feel for their personality.
Speaker 3:So I know are they someone who's talkative and they want someone who's going to be very engaging, or are they more reserved and maybe we find something a little bit more? You know, businesslike, right, right.
Speaker 4:That's helpful, because agencies just have a number of intended parents and then to try and fit that peg into that square, right, you're like, oh, I don't know, is that going to happen? Yeah, and when I did it, it was whoever was next on the list. That's how they did it.
Speaker 3:That makes sense. Did you have a choice, did you? Could you say no or no? The second journey.
Speaker 4:I had a big choice I made. I'm like, uh, send me profiles. Like the first one, I was like here you go, Bad, bad match. Second one I, I and that second one I'm. That's the triplets. I'm very close to them. I just went to one of their college graduations, Like, yeah, it's, it's ridiculous, Like, and we were talking about weddings and and when they become parents, and I'm like, oh my God, this is great.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and that's what everyone hopes for, right, that kind of thing, yeah, and I just lucked out and got that because, honestly, I didn't have all of these resources that they, that y'all, have now I didn't. So it was. It was the couple in myself. We just wanted to make it happen and we did, and I'm so, so thankful because that gets you through lots of stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's the goal journey. Yeah, that's the standards for me.
Speaker 4:Yeah Well, you'll get it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it's all good.
Speaker 3:It's all good, I'm happy Thank you so much for taking the time.
Speaker 2:Thank you, guys much for taking the time. Thank you guys. Thank you guys, so much for having me been amazing okay so nice to meet you guys.
Speaker 3:So nice to meet you. Thank you so much. Maybe one day we'll actually meet. Since we are not so far apart, I know there'll be like an event or something we can go a little drive, yeah, yeah, that'd be awesome, all right thank you guys thank you.
Speaker 4:Have a great evening me too wow, way different than what I thought it would be like, right, yeah it was one.
Speaker 2:It was wonderful on the joint session standard.
Speaker 4:It needs to be standard, like in every journey, don't you think?
Speaker 2:well, yeah, I mean again, I've only had it. I guess I had it one point one time, yeah, yeah, like yeah yeah, because and that girl had no idea what she was like she had, she like was very blunt, like before she was like oh I don't that was in 2023. She's like I have no idea, I've never done one of these, but like the agency is requiring it and I'm like okay, well, that's too bad, she that you were her first.
Speaker 2:I'm so sorry it's okay, it was interesting. Yeah, I don't remember it, but it was interesting yeah so, but no, this, this does sound great. I wish I did that with my, with my current yeah yeah, we'll see if any others are in the future, um, but uh, thank you, rachel, this was very informative very good, very fun um, if anybody has any questions or stories they would like to share with us, please feel free to reach out to us on instagram at stop period sit period surrogate.
Speaker 2:Or you can email us at stop period sit period surrogate at gmailcom. And also, you guys, you can check our website. Yes, you can. I know Like we should have like announced this in like earlier podcasts, but it's okay.
Speaker 4:It's okay.
Speaker 2:It's okay, but our website is stopsitsurrogatecom and you can find all the things there. Yes, all the things.
Speaker 4:So and more to come of the things, more to come More exciting things to come. We're trying, actually Kennedy's trying, ellen's just adding a little bit, but Kennedy.
Speaker 2:That is so sweet. To admit the truth, I I love her Kennedy is doing a lot of it.
Speaker 4:99 point some percent of it.
Speaker 2:I have the support of you. Yeah, for sure, you know. I love it and I'm doing the blogs.
Speaker 4:I'm doing the blogs, so I'm trying.
Speaker 2:I just said you do the blogs. I'm so happy for you. I'm thank you. This is amazing.
Speaker 4:Yes, it's fine. Okay, All right. So it's been another edition of Stop Sit Surrogate with Kennedy and Ellen. Thanks for listening, bye, bye. If you enjoyed this podcast, be sure to give us a like and subscribe. Also, check out the link to our YouTube channel in the description, and be sure to also check out our children's book my Mom has Superpowers, sold on Amazon and Etsy.