Stop. Sit. Surrogate.

From Perinatal Anxiety To Empowered Surrogacy Support

• Kenedi & Ellen Smith • Season 5 • Episode 25

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Ever wonder how it really feels to carry someone else’s baby—and make tough medical calls when hopes and bodies collide? We sit down with Jana, a Portland-based psychologist and surrogate, to unpack the real emotional load of surrogacy: induction pressure without clear medical cause, a lightning-fast birth in triage, and the quiet, complicated moments after delivery when your body wants to feed a baby who isn’t coming home with you.

We dive into perinatal mood and anxiety disorders—how anxiety, irritability, sleep changes, and intrusive thoughts can surface even in people with no prior history—and why a specialized clinician makes a difference. Jana explains how vague contract language like “follow doctor’s guidance” can become a fault line when preferences diverge, and she offers grounded strategies for advocacy that keep trust intact. She also breaks down the difference between “medical necessity” and “support necessity,” showing where confidential, nonjudgmental care helps surrogates process guilt, set boundaries, and stay steady through IVF meds, monitoring, and all the waiting.

There’s practical guidance throughout: what symptoms to watch for, how OB screenings work, and how to use agency wellness benefits without fear of stigma. We talk about family dynamics, partner support, and what to ask agencies beyond glossy benefits—like “tell me about a journey that didn’t go well.” Jana's dual lens as psychologist and surrogate gives this conversation rare clarity and compassion, translating hard moments into usable tools you can apply right away.

If this episode resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who’s exploring surrogacy, and leave a review to help more people find these stories. Your support helps us bring honest, useful conversations to anyone navigating the path to parenthood—or helping someone else get there.


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SPEAKER_01:

Have you ever thought about growing your family but aren't sure what your options are? Or maybe you're someone who wants to help others experience the joy of parenthood. That's where the Northwest Adrogacy Center comes in. The Northwest Adrogacy Center is a full service of adrogacy agency that guides intended parents and a target to go through every step of the journey. Imagine a legal support to emotional wellness. Whether you're considering a target of your family, or you're ready to become a target. Northwest Drogacy Center. Hey everybody, welcome back to Stoppes at the Surrogate with Kennedy and Ellen. We have a very interesting and exciting guest today, and we're gonna let her introduce herself. So go ahead and take it away.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks, Ellen. Hi, I'm Yana. I'm a psychologist in Portland, Oregon. I've been a therapist for over 10 years. I specialize in perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, among other things. And I also happen to be a surrogate. And as part of my work, I offer something that I I just call it carried with care, um, just to kind of distinguish it from my regular practice. And that's where I specifically support surrogates through their journey.

SPEAKER_01:

Very cool. This is very cool. Goodness. Okay, so what was the first word you said? Perry what?

SPEAKER_02:

Perinatal mood and anxiety disorder. So that's everything related to pregnancy, postpartum, that experience. So when people uh maybe never had a mental health disorder, but then in pregnancy they get really anxious, or um, you know, postpartum they develop symptoms of depression, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh wow, did not know that that was the thing. Has that always been a focus of your practice, or is it something you kind of morphed into? Because it's very specific.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So I mean, it is only one of the things that I do, to be fair. I also work with people who have generalized anxiety disorder or have trauma, um, among other things, but it's something that I really love doing. Um, in Oregon, we have a nonprofit called Baby Joseph Connection, and they specifically work with parents postpartum. And so I um volunteered with them for a long time and got some additional training around that uh topic. And so yeah, I just really like working with pregnant people and postpartum parents.

SPEAKER_01:

So it's so needed because you don't realize that you think you're crazy, and I hate to use that word as so you know loosely, but you do. Like I was way different in my pregnancies, all of them, than I was as a human, like just normal. Just like a human, like just as a normal person without all those hormones and all that stress, especially when you're carrying a baby for somebody else. Like 100%.

SPEAKER_02:

That adds like a layer uh yeah, for sure. A lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_00:

Chicken or the egg, which one came first?

SPEAKER_02:

Surrogacy or this, or oh no, this this came much earlier. I actually um, you know, I always knew about surrogacy, um, but it just really wasn't something I was thinking about. Like I had just like you, I also watched Friends as a, you know, as a youngling, um, and also actually knew somebody in my personal life who was a surrogate, but it just didn't really register at all. Um, and then when I started working with people who um uh are struggling with infertility or I had friends going through IVS, um at that point, you know, after I already had my kid and after I already decided that I was done having children for myself, um, that's when I met someone who was a surrogate and things sort of fell into place. So yeah, so that's the chicken and the egg answer.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, that's pretty cool. So did you correct me? So did you meet them through your practice?

SPEAKER_02:

The surrogate, no, that was a friend of a friend that I met at a picnic. Oh my gosh, meant to me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, oh wow, that's a meant meeting. Yeah. So then how did you navigate it? Did you like try and do independent?

SPEAKER_02:

No, I went through an agency. Um, yeah, we have an agency. Am I allowed to say the name of a yeah? Of course you are. Yep. Um, it's Northwest Sergacy Center. I think they're amazing. Yeah. Um, and yeah, very quickly decided that I wanted to go with them because I really like how they work with men having babies and um, you know, they're just doing really good work. They give a lot back to the community, and I really like that.

SPEAKER_01:

So was that agency recommended to you per se maybe from this surrogate friend, or did you just research?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's the no, that's the agency that she used. Good.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, how very cool. Yeah. Okay. So you um uh uh when did when did this all start? The surrogate? Yeah, the surrogacy.

SPEAKER_02:

Um let me think back. I wanna say in December 2023 is when I first reached out, but then I had it might actually have been December 2022. Um, because then I knew that I had a bunch of travel planned for the summer of 2023. Yeah, that seems that seems correct. Um and so they said, let's pause until you're done with all your adventures and all your traveling and then talk again when you're back. And so uh like September 2023 is when we kind of uh pursued this more uh more seriously and kind of went through the through all this stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

Baby must be little. Uh baby is six months, yeah. There you go. Wow. Oh my gosh, like you just had a baby six months ago. Oh my gosh. Happening. Okay, that's very cool. So it all moved, so it all moved very quickly. So like going once once you were ready after travel, it seems like because that was you said September of 2023. So we're in August.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so I had my first transfer in I want to say March or April of 2024. Okay. Man, times are hard. Right? Right. Um, yeah, and that one didn't take, and that was really hard because then you start doubting yourself and you're like, what if what if I can't do this? What if this isn't working? Um, yeah, but then the second transfer a couple months later took and then it was smooth sailing from there.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow, yay!

SPEAKER_01:

And even just one embryo? Uh just one embryo, yeah. And when you say smooth sailing, what was your your pregnancy with your own child different than your surrogate pregnancy or pretty pretty mirrored?

SPEAKER_02:

No, they were both super easy, straightforward, no complications, no diabetes, no high blood pressure, nothing. Everything was super smooth.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And you mentioned that you got to the hospital and um minutes. Like what was that? That what are you doing? So oh, okay. But we want to talk about our practice too. I just if she said everything.

SPEAKER_02:

Ellen knows things that you don't know, uh maybe. Um, so um let's see. So I was in labor for quite a long time, but I wasn't really sure if this was really it or if this was just sort of, you know, practice, Brexton Hicks, that kind of thing. Right. Um, because I had even like I still had like a mid-wiffery appointment um the morning that I had contractions. She's like, oh, we don't know yet, you know, can't really tell. And so I was like, oh, this may not re not really be the thing just yet. Um and so how far along were you at that point? So I was already 41 weeks and one day. So pretty uh, you know, going a little late.

SPEAKER_00:

But um And they weren't they weren't gonna induce you?

SPEAKER_02:

So they did pressure me to pick an induction date, which is one of the things that was the hardest things about this journey that I felt kind of coerced and pressured into picking a date. Um, but there wasn't any medical reason to, you know, they're like, um, it's yeah, you know, your due date and it's IBF and all of those things, but there weren't any actual complications. Like we did BPPs uh like twice a week, like the biophysio profile, um, and everything was fine. Like the center was working just great, and the baby was fine and all of those things. Um, so I didn't feel like they had a really strong case, but I still um kind of let myself be talked into picking an abduction date. Um and um NDIPs agreed with that, and so that was really hard because I was like, but I don't want this, and they want this, and so kind of that dynamic of like, hey, it's their baby, but it's also my experience and my body and that kind of thing. So that was probably the hardest thing, and that was one of the things that I felt like, okay, there should be some support available for somebody trying to navigate this because even if you're used to working with um, you know, pregnant people preparing for birth and uh helping them advocate with medical providers and that sort of thing, which therapists do, yeah. Um but it's like how they they don't necessarily know how to support you when the dynamic has that like extra layer of it's not your baby and whose guidance, you know, and maybe there's a contract that specifies uh what you need to do. Um, and you know, maybe you signed the contract when you didn't know what you didn't know, like um, yeah. I feel like I'm uh losing my train of thought. Like, what what question am I trying to answer?

SPEAKER_01:

Great about the induction part. So was it in your contract that if you got to a certain point you'd have to induce? No.

SPEAKER_02:

No, it just says something like um following doctor's guidance, yeah. But it's like okay, but exactly. It's kind of vague wording. Yeah, so but luckily, and and this is where I really feel like I was fortunate. Um, she came before the scheduled induction. So we actually avoided the whole debate. Yeah, but so then I don't know if they told you guys this, but I got the guidance of like wait till your contractions are 5-1-1. So, like, you know, five minutes apart, one minute long for one hour, and that's when you go to the hospital. Um, but that just never really happened. Um, they just were all over the place. Sometimes they were much closer together than they were like, you know, half an hour apart. And so I was like, I don't really know what to do. Um, and so by the time that I was like, okay, I think we should go to the hospital. Um, you know, we got to the hospital and two minutes later she was out. Like there was no midwife in the room, no doctor in the room. It was just a triage nurse who was completely overwhelmed. Oh my gosh. Didn't know what was happening.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my gosh. So you weren't even to maternity ward. We yeah, we literally we just went up.

SPEAKER_02:

We went in, up the elevator, out the elevator, and then the baby was born. Was anyone with you as support? Magically, my doula arrived at the hospital like right as we were walking through the door. So she was there, and that was just just perfect timing, and it was magical. Were the IPs there for the verse? No, no, they they missed it just because it happened so quickly. I did text them and call them saying like we're gonna go to the hospital. Um not thinking it was but at that point I didn't, you know, I was like, oh, this could be hours. Right. Who knows? Take your time, you know, take a shower, eat breakfast, do what you need to do. Right. And so yeah, so that was a little unexpected, but uh great. Yeah. And and I I'm not gonna lie, I actually really appreciated that I had a couple minutes before they got there, and that I got to be the one to hand them the baby. That was really special too.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm not mad about how things you know, everything everything happens for a reason. Yeah, yeah. That sounds it sounds like it was incredibly wonderful and beautiful. Yeah, it does. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, and you were okay, like no tearing or anything like that. You didn't have any complications because it was so fast.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I did have some tearing because um the birth was so fast, and um, they also did need to that's probably the worst part of the whole birth experience. They had to like basically stick their hand in my uterus and scrape the it happened so much with IVF.

SPEAKER_01:

It's like this. I've done it three times. I haven't had to do it. Don't ever want to get it. And you're not medicated. Oh, you're definitely not medicated. You're not medicated all the way up to the elbow, and you're like, excuse me.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Well, and they couldn't even they weren't even telling me what was happening in the moment because they're like, oh, we just need to do this and we'll explain everything later. Um were you screaming like in pain? No, I I mean it was not pleasant, but it but I don't know. I it I for some reason it was if it was fine.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, they were successful then that you didn't have to go to surgery to get it remote.

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, it was all all good. And honestly, because they did that, like postpartum bleeding was pretty minimal because they had gotten everything out. And yeah, it was um and they did a good job with stitching me up, so everything everything was pretty smooth.

SPEAKER_01:

Excellent, excellent. So we're just always curious sometimes, and and then we'll go on. But the in the hospitals, are you given your own room and IP's given their own room?

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, we had rooms that were not exactly next to each other, but almost. So I think they were like one room over. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Did yeah, and they came. Oh, sorry, no, they came. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I was gonna say they came over to let her like nurse while they were in the hospital. So that was really special. Um, yeah, and then um, you know, once they left, then I tried pumping, which wasn't that successful because I think that I think you've talked about this with other people on the podcast, but I feel like sometimes when your body just knows there's no baby there, your body's like, I don't really know, yeah, why would I do this? Yeah, so um didn't really make enough milk for her. Okay. Um, and emotionally that was pretty hard too, because I was like, but I really want to do this for her.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02:

Um yeah, but you know, eventually I was like, it is what it is. I'm I tried and this is where we're at. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So is that the only time that they like so were you there for were you and baby there for the same amount of time? Cause I'm just trying to like picture like, did you see baby at all, or was it just like to come over to nurse?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, I mean, they hung out with me. Oh yeah, but but usually, you know, when they're like, oh, you know, maybe she's ready to eat or whatever, like then I also nurse her. Got it. Okay, yeah. No, we're we're pretty good friends. We're actually gonna see them Labor Day weekend. So I'm excited about that. Yeah, yeah. Is that the first time you'll see her since since she was born? Yeah, they live uh probably not too far from you guys, somewhere in California. So um uh so we're so my son and I are gonna fly to to hang out for the long weekend.

SPEAKER_01:

How old was your son when when this took place? Nine. So oh he gets it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

He's just uh he's as old as yours. Yes, he is. Yes, he is.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my gosh. Mine doesn't remember the other thing. You don't have to answer if you don't want to, but how did he was he totally okay with it?

SPEAKER_02:

Like he he's totally cool, like he loves that we're getting to help, you know, other people. And um, yeah, he's excited. And he um what I was excited about was that because it went so quickly, like he actually got to see it, he got to see her be born. And I don't think that he really cares one way or another, but I'm like, I think that's kind of cool. Like, when do you ever see a baby being born? So it's cool.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh wow, so he was in the room. Whoa! Yeah, because because he was you know, he was with you. He came with you. Yeah, yeah, he came with me. Oh my gosh, I think mine would like be like, where are my video games? Like I tried to play the video books.

SPEAKER_02:

He did have books with him, but um but I don't know. I mean, it's not like he had to pay attention for hours. Yeah, no, for sure.

SPEAKER_01:

When it went so quick, he was probably just like being rushed into a corner or whatever it was.

SPEAKER_02:

Like, what is happening? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, how cool. No, that is very cool. That's a fun experience to experience together. Yeah, I think so. So I'm curious. So, in because you help surrogates and you help women in these difficult times during pregnancy, did you need that service? Did you feel that you needed to talk to somebody during that?

SPEAKER_02:

Or yeah, so I didn't see a therapist, even though I could have. Um, I know how to access care, like I know how to navigate the system, which isn't always true for people, right? True. Um, so I could have, but I feel like and and my agency, and shout out to my case manager, Amber, she's amazing. Um, so I, you know, I had a really great case manager. I did go to in-person meetups. I um, you know, connected with other surrogates and like Facebook groups that were uh, you know, what what is the word? Like the agency has like their own Facebook group for course and stuff. So all of that's great. Um, but there were definitely like times where I felt like it would have been nice to have somebody with like clinical knowledge or clinical experience that could support you in a way that is not just the like the more, you know, oh uh do you see these lines on the pregnancy test too? Or um, you know, or did you all eat fries after the after the transfer and things like that without it needing to be like like a medically necessary thing, you know? So obviously when you have something traumatic happen or a miscarriage or traumatic birth or something, then um you might qualify for a medical diagnosis. Um, and then everybody's like, yeah, sure, go see a therapist. But if you're actually like you're fine, you don't have a diagnosis, you just want to talk about those boundaries, like how do I navigate this? Um, or um, yeah, like how do I make sense of maybe these feelings? Like, does it make me a bad person if I feel this way? Or um, you know, that kind of thing. And then also having a confidential space, there's probably questions that you can talk about with other surrogates in those like in-person meetups, but that's not really confidential. And what are the implications if somebody finds out? What if you want to do another journey and somebody finds out that you felt more anxious than you then, you know, like those kinds of things. Yeah. So um, yeah, so I feel like there's that in-between that's kind of missing where you can say, I feel really resentful right now, or I feel anxious, or um, you know, and you're getting more than just like, oh yeah, that's tough, and maybe next time change it in your contract.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And you're given you're given the safe space to do it and not be judged. Yeah. Like, because a lot of us had those feelings and we had no idea what to do with them. Yeah. Rant and rave to the people in our home, and you're like, what uh? Yeah. Or you keep it all bottled in, right? And that's not good. Exactly. Thinking about becoming a surrogate, it's a life-changing decision, and you deserve expert guidance every step of the way. That's where Serena surrogacy partners comes in. Serena surrogacy partners is a reputable, experienced surrogacy agency dedicated to supporting women like you. As a surrogate, you'll be matched with intended parents who align with your values, and you'll have a dedicated case manager throughout the journey. Compensation is fair and transparent, and your health and well-being always come first. If you've ever considered surrogacy, start by getting the facts.com to learn more or apply confidentially. That's SerenesurrogacyPartners.com.

SPEAKER_02:

And then I feel like even when you do access therapy with a with a with you know a psychologist or a social worker or something like that, um, they're people and sometimes they have their own biases around surrogacy too. And they're not gonna say that out loud, obviously. But, you know, sometimes I think um, and and the reason why I know that is because I obviously have a pretty big network of fellow therapists, and um, and uh, you know, I heard things that they would say, and I'm like, okay, so there's some judgment there, and um, I don't think that's the best place to to get support.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I agree. Agreed, agreed. Very interesting. I'm I just have so many, but I don't know how to put it into a let's see. Um, so how how does somebody get to you? How do they find you? I mean, I know you have the website and everything, but I wouldn't have known to have gone there, right?

SPEAKER_02:

I would Yeah, yeah, that I mean honestly, because this is a fairly new thing that I'm doing, it's been a little bit hard to get the word out. Um, just because um, you know, a lot of groups have rules against like promoting your business and stuff like that. Um, so I am hoping that I might actually be able to work with my agency in the future and kind of partner in some way. But right now it's mostly word of mouth and coming on a podcast like yours. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I am curious. Okay, so say say the fun word again, the post pre pre like perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. Literally, you're just gonna have to say that the whole podcast because I couldn't I couldn't say that to save my life. Um, so that does somebody get diagnosed with that, or does somebody find like like how how does somebody know they have that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you can get diagnosed with it. There's um, you know, usually I think most um OB offices now screen people for that. Um, you know, like I don't know if when you were pregnant, if you got questionnaires from your OB, like Yeah, like like the normal, like, are you depressed or you like do you Yeah, exactly. So they use those kind of screening questionnaires and that kind of gives them a good indication, like if you have a specific score that like you might want to uh you know get referred, um, that kind of thing. Yeah. Um, but the nice thing with with this is that you don't need a diagnosis, right? Like you need a diagnosis if you go through uh like if you want to use your insurance and that sort of thing. But most um agencies have either mental health benefits or um like a wellness package that is broader. And so the idea is that um again for a variety of reasons, you may not want to have a diagnosis in your record. Um you may just want to have somebody uh that you can talk to in a confidential space who gets it and who still has that clinical expertise. And so um, yeah, if you use those benefits, like you won't need a diagnosis.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So now I have another question. Can you maybe list off some like symptoms? Like Dr. Google sucks. I'm just gonna say that right now. It's gonna tell you that like you die when you have like, you know, a headache. Like it's it's the worst. So if I'm feeling because people are often told, oh, it's the baby blues. And I know that that's an after thing, right? There's postpartum depression and there's baby blues that happen after. But during, how do you know it's not just, oh, I I'm I'm just feeling run down?

SPEAKER_02:

You know, I mean, honestly, it's a lot of the same symptoms that you would have if you had major depressive disorder, generalized anxiety disorder. So that could be like increased irritability, or you have difficulty falling asleep. Maybe you have racing thoughts, maybe you have intrusive thoughts. Um, do you do you know what intrusive thoughts are? Is that like a term that you're familiar with?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh yeah, like yeah, yeah, like like bad thoughts. Yeah, bad thoughts. Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, um, kind of like imagining the worst things happening, but you're kind of involved in in having something happen. Yeah. So um, you know, things like that. Or you just don't find the things that you normally find enjoyable, they're just not enjoyable anymore. Um, you know, or you do have thoughts of um like wanting to hurt yourself or suicide. Um, obviously that's um that doesn't happen to everyone. Also with symptoms, you don't have to have every symptom to have um, you know, like uh a clinically relevant experience. Like you may just have two symptoms or three symptoms, um, and and that's still meaningful or still matters. Also, if you have um a history of depression or anxiety, right, you're at higher risk of having it in um in pregnancy or postpartum as well. So usually um providers will have a little flag um in in your in your records and kind of maybe keep an eye out um and and be more on guard um for that.

SPEAKER_01:

But so what is a typical if someone does want to come and speak with you and they're just like I I just need to get this out and talk to somebody, what's a typical um amount of time somebody would come to you? Uh just just because I know you have a package of like 10, but then you have individuals, like it's yeah, because because it might just be one time, right?

SPEAKER_02:

It might just be like, can we just talk through this one specific scenario and get some uh either coping tools or maybe some like communication strategies or um or actually just have the space to um to process um you know any of these things. Now, if somebody does have a more traumatic and and it's it doesn't even have to be traumatic, a more serious situation, let's say um, they may want to come more than a couple of times, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

It's acceptable. Like if if somebody really just wants to come one time and they want to use some of their wellness benefits as a surrogate through their agency and through their package, they're allowed. They they can come. They it's yeah, absolutely. Yeah, great. That's great to know. Because some people really just want to go through one scenario. Like this is happening, like let's say you're in you're you didn't want to be induced. IPs wanted you, but like exactly let's work through that. It's almost the end of the pregnancy. Let's just work through it. Um exactly. Do you see people from all states or does your license only allow Portland?

SPEAKER_02:

So unfortunately, like I wish I could say, oh, anyone can do this. And I was exploring different options of maybe um doing this more like a separate like coaching business, which coaching isn't um doesn't have the same licensure requirements, as well it's not, you know, it doesn't have the same uh laws um around it. And um, but the thing is if you offer anything remotely like therapy, it's also um like you have to follow the ethics and the licensure stuff. And so um currently I'm licensed in Oregon and in Washington. Okay. Um and so that's those are the states that surrogates can can be in. Surrogates need to reside in those states, right? They need to they need to be physically located in them. You could be a resident of California, okay, but if you're currently in Oregon, you can come and talk to me.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

That's that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, I like that.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And you do everything Zoom, right? Do it.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, if you're in the neighborhood, you're welcome to come to my uh in-person uh office. Um but yeah, um telehealth works really well.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, telehealth is a beautiful thing that came out of COVID. I'm just very happy with it. Oh yeah, seriously.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um okay, so I am I am curious, just because it's so that word is so one, it's fun to say, but two, it's just so a bunch of words. I know, but but a term, let me say term. Sorry, in my head, it like all went together. Whatever. Um, but no, uh shoot, Ellen, you made me lose my train of thought. This the the phrase, the terminology. Yeah. What about it? I don't know, I know. I have too many babies. My gosh, it's blown away. Um, oh no, okay, here's this. Um if if say I have anxiety, I have, and I'm just being honest, because I I'm just I don't know, right? So like I have I'm pregnant, I have anxiety, or I have um some type of depression. I'm currently seeing my my personal therapist who does not, you know, um specialize in this. Is am I going to get what what what is the how what is the benefit of going to somebody who specializes in this versus because I feel like my therapist would just be like, we are depressed, like let's walk through the depression. So I think I already know the answer to my own question, right? Because they're gonna kind of look at it more so as like, well, it's just baseline depression, not take everything into consideration, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, sometimes it can be tricky because if you have pre-existing depression or anxiety, it's sort of does uh pregnancy just exacerbate that, or do you have something uh unique in addition or separate from from that, right? And so sometimes that just um I mean there's no one size fits all answer, or there's no um uh uh you know good good easy answer to tell you like which is it. Um yeah, I know. Um but I think the benefit is just that you um yeah, that you get to talk to somebody who gets it, maybe has more nuanced understanding of the experience. Right. Um and then while I definitely don't think that a therapist has to have personal experience in anything that their clients uh go through, you know, like we wouldn't have any therapists if that was the case. So I do think it doesn't hurt. Like so I kind of I kind of liken it to uh I'm sure you've had like friends who were not yet parents sharing opinions on parenting, and then they become parents and they're like, Oh, right, yeah, I get it, I understand. Yeah, um, and so I feel like that yes, um, that's true for this topic as well. Like, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

No, that no, that that would make a bunch of sense. There's it's a bummer that it's hard to differentiate. It is that is a bummer. And everything is confidential, right? Because it's it's it's client therapist privileged, right? It's so it doesn't go back to the 80s. Because I think some some people let's say they want to do another journey when they're done with this one, and this one's just been particularly hard. It's a lot of anxiety, and normally they're just a very calm person, just all kinds of things you know can happen. So I just want people to realize that you can talk to somebody and mental health is not a stigma anymore. Like you can, and it's not gonna bite you in the butt for heaven's sake, for the next journey.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. But I also want to clarify if if somebody comes to see me and they very clearly have like meet criteria for a diagnosis, I will absolutely discuss that with them and then probably document it because that's that would be unethical not to do so. Um, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are a million reasons why somebody might want to talk to a professional without having or needing a diagnosis, right? Right for all of those things. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01:

Umce that diagnosis is there, it's it's there.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, but I think that unless you are currently on medication, um, it doesn't necessarily preclude you from another journey of either. Right, right, right. But still, right? Like sometimes you're like, I don't know, it's kind of like pilots or um what's like another uh, you know, where um like they're not gonna seek mental health um services because they're afraid they're gonna be barred from flying. Exactly, and that's their livelihood.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'm not saying surrogacy is a livelihood, I'm just saying much of the thing.

SPEAKER_02:

No, but I but I do feel like that's with surrogates where they're like, I better not say that I'm struggling. Right. Because then what is that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, did say they were struggling or just needed to talk to somebody and like you said, could get it literally in one or two sessions, and they could breathe a peace of mind and be able to finish that journey more in self. Like more power to them. And a lot of the times when I mean, I'm just assuming. I'm just I'm just gonna say I'm assuming here. But I feel like a lot of the times when surrogates do get overwhelmed or they do want to talk to somebody and they don't speak up. Obviously, we know why, because they're afraid to, which I don't blame them. Um, because I've felt that way myself as well. But that's a stigma that we're trying to no, I know, and that's right, that's what I'm saying. And Ellen, every time you jump in, I forget everything. All right, I'm sorry. It's coming, it's coming. It's whatever. I'll remember in like an hour. No, you won't. You remembered in five seconds last time.

unknown:

Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so how do people get you? How website, uh, Instagram, what how can people find you?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, for my own mental health, I try to avoid um all the social media things as much as I can. Um, but my website um sounds a little clunky. There's a lot of dashes, but I'll just say it as www.heart-mind-therapy.com. That's the that's like my main practice. And then forward slash carried dash with dash care.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, okay. It'll be in the show notes. Don't even worry about it. It'll be in the show notes. Perfect. I remember what I was gonna say. All right, we'll rewind. Okay. Um a lot of surrogates, right, they're afraid to come forward because we're afraid of the stigma and everything like that. But oftentimes our our anxiety or our depression really doesn't have to do with the pregnancy. It has to do with the overwhelming feelings of, and I'm just assuming here, I'm just I'm just assuming for the majority, but it has to do with the overwhelming things of like, oh my gosh, okay, like I'm not able to keep up as much, or I'm not able to do this, or something's happening in my life. Because life goes on and like things happen in life. So, right, it should, it should not um scare people to talk about it because mental health is such a big thing now, and it's totally fair and it's totally reasonable. And like, I think everybody should have. I think when you're born, you should just be assigned a therapist. Like, I just think that's how it should work. Like a little life coach for your whole life, how amazing. But it's you know, it it is more times than not, I would assume it's not anything related to do with the baby or being a surrogate in itself.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, it could, right? Like I think what you're saying is absolutely true, but I think often it's also that people underestimate how responsible you feel for things going well. You know, like maybe you um you didn't feel all that anxious with your own pregnancies, but then with this, it's like, oh no, um, did I uh did I eat well today? Or yeah, I don't know. There's just this layer of pressure and this anxiety that it and or you know, um IVF and surrogacy pregnancies have a lot of subchroniotic hematomas and that kind of thing. And so then you know you're bleeding, and all of a sudden you're like, oh no, is this something I did? And what happens is something happened. I'm am I gonna be blamed? Am I to blame? Am I responsible? Um, you know, how do I um or then even you know, my example, if I had pushed to say, no, I I'm just not gonna agree to the induction, which I could do, right? Legally, I have that right to refuse um intervention that I don't want. But then, God forbid, let's say something had happened, right? Like, how would I ever be okay? Right, right. You know, that that kind of thing. So how do you um yeah, how do you make those decisions? How do you navigate that? Right. It's it's a it's a stress that I don't think other pregnant people can even relate to.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, not people that have babies for themselves. Like, yeah, it's a very different, it's it it is, it's very different. It is very different. We'll be right back. But first, I want to take a quick moment to talk about something close to my heart. Helping families grow through surrogacy. If you've ever thought about becoming a surrogate or if you're an intended parent ready to start your journey, Paying It Forward Surrogacy is here to guide you every step of the way. At Paying It Forward Surrogacy, you're not just a number, you're supported, celebrated, and connected with real people who've walked this path before. Whether you're just starting to explore or ready to take the next step, it'll make sure you feel informed, empowered, and cared for from day one. Visit Paying It Forward Surrogacy.com to learn more. That is PayingIt Forward Surrogacy.com. Because every journey to the parenthood deserves heart, honesty, and the right support. Now let's get back to the episode. The amount of responsibility, like you said, and the amount of pressure that's put on a surrogate unbeknowingly to that surrogate prior to her getting everything and getting the and getting that positive pregnancy test. I think that's kind of when it hits. Is once the meds are all done and then you get a positive pregnancy, you're like, okay, this has to work. This has to be. But it's like the pressure of also getting that positive pregnancy test. Yeah, and it's not like anybody's trying to put pressure on anybody, it's definitely not a but it starts to reap its ugly head. Yeah. Because the surrogates or the woman is going, oh my God, this this all falls on me.

SPEAKER_02:

We have to stop that. It doesn't. It's a villain. Even though we now know, right? Like a lot of the placental um problems that that occur, like the um evangestational diabetes or pre-examps often have to do with the sperm. Um, and so it has nothing to do with us with what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01:

Um but but still you but still it's happening to you and it's somebody else's baby, and you're feeling like, oh my gosh, what could I have done differently? No, I'm right there. I felt that way every single one. Every single one. Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And then, like you said, right, the meds don't even stop when you have that positive pregnancy test. With most clinics, you're supposed to keep going until 10, maybe 12 weeks. And sometimes you're caught off guard and you're like, I didn't realize. I mean, hopefully at some point somebody told you this was gonna happen. But sometimes that's way late in the process. Yeah. Um, you know, once you're talking to the clinic, maybe even after Lego, and now you're like, oh my goodness, I have to do this this massive needle in my butt for another three months, or you know, you know, right, whatever it is, yeah. Whatever it is. And um, and I don't think that, you know, when you talk to your friends, I don't think they necessarily get in there like, okay, well, why are you doing this?

SPEAKER_00:

Or like you signed up for it.

SPEAKER_02:

Like Yeah, you signed up for this. Why are you gonna do this again? Or you know, like yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Or why are you complaining? You're the one who wanted to be a surrogate, like, oh, yeah, horrible. Yeah, especially when it comes from family and people who are close to you. You're like, you know what? I just need you to support me right now, not to actually that's a really good topic, too.

SPEAKER_02:

That comes up, right? The how do you navigate shifting dynamics with a partner or your in-laws or um, you know, your neighbors or your kids' teachers, or you know, all of that. Um, which um it's it's nice when you can talk to somebody who you don't have to explain what happened. Right, right. That's huge. That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00:

Just to be heard and understood. That's a very big thing in surrogacy on both sides.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, it is, but to have somebody who already already understands it, who already gets it, who's been there and and has that knowledge rather than just, and I want to just say just a regular therapist, but a therapist that does not have that specialty. Yeah, can make it can make it can make the difference in how many times you're going to a session, right? Like a regular therapist, maybe you're going with holes in your toolbox. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And how empathetic uh that individual can be towards you. That's a big one too. Because if you don't get a connection and you don't feel like somebody's in your corner, you're not gonna go back. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Wow, yeah, it's very interesting. Well, you're amazing, and what you do is amazing. And this is just say that word one more time. What's it called?

SPEAKER_02:

Parinative mood and anxiety disorders.

SPEAKER_01:

You're funny. That's such a fun, that's such a fun term. It's just it's so long. It's not a great term, I know, but it's a fun one to say. Yeah. You were gonna say something, Mom. Yeah, was there like a sp and maybe I already asked it and I forgot because now I'm old. Um, was there a specific let's see. No. Did you come up with this? Like, I want to support circuits after you did your journey? Yes. Okay, okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, because again, I think that the support that's available is good. You know, I did feel supported. I I think that agencies um are pretty like generous. I mean, I can't speak for all agencies, but specifically mine is pretty generous in the kinds of things they offer. They even have something um where um, you know, it's supposed to go a little bit deeper than the surface um uh that's like attended, like a social worker attends that. Um, and and that's nice, but that person isn't a surrogate or hasn't been a surrogate. And so I I feel like that shows somehow.

SPEAKER_01:

I and I don't mean to sound you're not uh judgier than no, but it's but it is true. It's different when you've when you've actually walked in the same shoes. Yeah, and it's different than yeah, you have that perspective and you're like, oh, I've been there, I I I know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, until it really was in response to that experience of feeling like and and you know, seeing some of the things that people post in the group and where I'm like, oh man, you so need support. And I wish I could just tell you to call me, but I can't. Oh god.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, hopefully people will hear this, and and and and if they're not in those two states, they gotta be able to reach out to reach out to their support system, whether it's their agency, whether it's whatever, if they can't utilize your services.

SPEAKER_02:

Um yeah, I mean, you know, hopefully in the future, there are um like Oregon is in the middle of trying to um to kind of pass a law where reciprocity is more of a thing, so that if you're licensed in one state, you can also work in other states, um, that kind of thing, because we all pass the same board exam. It's literally exactly the same board exam.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and so you have to do it in several states just to work there. It's you guys have already done the art. My my husband is in his master's program and coming up on his practicum to do all this for psychology, and you guys have to do so much. I can't imagine having to do that test twice, or three times, or four times, or whatever.

SPEAKER_02:

And usually it's not even that you have to retake it, it's just like it you just pay a ton of money and go through a lot of admin stuff, and it's just you know, and so it's a lot easier.

SPEAKER_01:

It's annoying to for all the work that you guys go through to get to where you are, you should just be like, and same with lawyers. Once you've done it, you've done it. I get that the lawyer thing is different because there's laws and things like that.

SPEAKER_02:

And that is true for mental health too, right? Like you have to have some awareness of the specific laws in the states that you work in, because like if somebody um, you know, were to um, I don't know, threaten that they're gonna harm someone, like you need to know the laws around uh are you allowed to breach confidentiality? Can you can you uh warn the other person? That's different from state to state. Right, right. Yeah, well, that's interesting. So I I guess that you can't just be like, oh, you live in one place and you're good to go in in all the states, but it should be easier and there should be.

SPEAKER_01:

It should be easier. It should be because then it could be be more accessible. I'm glad Oregon's working on it. Good for Oregon.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and so eventually, you know, I'll be able to offer this to that'd be the other two.

SPEAKER_01:

That'd be amazing. It really would be because I I think if if it could be, I I think you'd be no, I don't I don't think you'd be surprised, but you'd be inundated, like you would, like you would, like there's a need there is a need for it. And I just don't think it's coming fast enough. So I'm applaud you for taking the start of your journey and then finding something to uh actually give back again.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You already get gave back by helping somebody become a family, and now you're giving back again by helping the community. So I think it's fantastic. Oh my god. And you're you're such a delight to talk to. So I know I'm not pregnant, but I would come.

SPEAKER_00:

I would. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. And so um if people want to reach out or anything like that, it's it's Oregon and Washington, uh, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Um residents or my website.

SPEAKER_01:

Go to the website contact form. Okay, okay, perfect. And I will have that website in the show notes. Yes, there's a contact form on there. I saw it. I was like, maybe I should fill this out. No, I should like, no, don't do that.

SPEAKER_02:

I I want to say one more thing, and that is um one of the differences is also like in a traditional therapy model, uh, the clients or the patients don't know anything, or at least not that much about their therapist, right? That's sort of like the traditional model where um you you don't really know anything. Um and so in this, it's gonna be slightly different, right? Like for one, they do know that I'm a surrogate, and I think it's also more um like it does have more of a coaching touch as well, even though it's not coaching, right? There can be a lot more um to learn. Like I like, you know, well, here's here's what worked for me. Um or you know, kind of more of a relational um like they'll know me as a person in addition to knowing me as a therapist, which is a main difference.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, that is a big difference, and it's a huge benefit to like I I think so, yeah. You become more human in in a in a patient's eyes, you become way more human, yeah. And relatable or relatable, right? Yeah, yeah, relatable, that's key. Yeah, my gosh. This was delightful. Thank you so much for for reaching out. We really appreciate it. We always ask, we always ask, like, do you have any advice for a surrogate? I don't know it doesn't if it's from your practice or from a surrogate side, it doesn't, whatever you want, but like one piece.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean uh I think that every guest on your show says the same thing, but it's like take your time and do your research. Um, I actually like while um I was, you know, I had reached out and then they said uh, you know, wait until you're done with your travels and then reach out again. Um during that time I listened to all the podcasts, right? Like I listened to your podcast, I listened to other podcasts, and got a lot of information and feel like I was a lot more um educated walking in. Good. Um which yeah, which really helped. And so I guess that's that's my advice. Just know what you're what you're signing up for.

SPEAKER_01:

Try and try and find out what you don't know, right? Because you don't know what you don't know, but there are there is enough information out there these days to give you at least a handful of knowledge, yeah, if you take the time to research versus if you don't. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, yeah, exactly. But also don't be afraid to ask questions, right? Like um, if if you if you are talking to an agency and they're just giving you all the the the nice, you know, here's our benefits package, and you know, here's how this is gonna work. Like ask, you know, what do surrogates struggle with? Or um or you know, what tell me about a journey that didn't go well, um and things like that, and see how they respond. And if they're like, oh, we never have issues, okay. You know, that's probably a red flag. Are you new? Did you start yesterday? Like exactly. So um, but then don't let that deter you either. Just like know how you're going to where you're going to get support and um how are you going to navigate it. But if you want to do this, like um you can do it. You can. You can. Yeah, that's your living proof.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, you can. Yes, you can.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, thank you. This has been nice. I got educated. Yeah. Well, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02:

Of course.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my gosh. Good luck to you. I hope everybody hears this and everybody lives in Oregon and Washington, and then you're just like, yeah, like you don't know what to do with all the people.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, let's just have people move to Oregon and move there, guys.

SPEAKER_01:

Just move there. Exactly. Well, amazing. Thank you so much. Definitely keep us posted if you start working with an agency and stuff, because I think that that's going to be a big pool for a lot of people to know that they would have that extra bonus of support.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Yeah. I will I will stay on the show. And back and do a follow-up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Always up for follow-up.

SPEAKER_01:

So yes. So amazing. Well, thank you so much. Have a wonderful evening. Thank you, you two. Hi, you both. Bye. Wow. That's super interesting.

SPEAKER_00:

Can you say the term? Do you know how to say it? Oh, you're gonna budget.

SPEAKER_01:

Perinatal modem anxiety disorder? I don't know. I'll have to listen to that. Can I look that up right now? But anyways, that was so amazing. Thank you so much, Yana. That's this was very beneficial.

SPEAKER_00:

I think that this should be like almost standard.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, I get the whole, like, okay, yes, like, you know, could you do a psyche valve, which is very different than this, absolutely, because a psyche valve happens first. Like, yes, you need that. And absolutely, let's do that 100%. But during your journey, when you are seeking health, I know I know several girls that are like, oh, you know, I I went and talked to a therapist. And it's like maybe this was the type of therapist that you needed to talk to. Like this specialty, this is what's gonna help. This is what I think for what she does is fills that uh tiny little slice of talk to somebody who's been a surrogate, talk to somebody who who's walked the walk, who has the clinical knowledge, who actually had some things go with her that now she has relevant experience with and who's very present in the community all over. Because she doesn't just specialize in this, she specializes in the perinatal aspect of it with depression and all of that. And I I really think she's got a little niche right there where it's I think I I think it's gonna be very beneficial and very gotta get that word out. Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much, Yana. Um, if anybody has any questions or stories they would like to share, please feel free to reach out to us on Instagram at stop period zit period surrogate, or you guys can email us at stop periodsitperiod surrogate at gmail.com. And this has been another episode of Stop Zit Surrogate with Kennedy and Ellen. Hi everybody! Hi before we wrap up, we want to give a huge thank you to our sponsors at Northwest Addrogacy Center, New York Adrogacy Center, paying it forward adurrogacy and to serve adurrogacy partners. Their continued support helps us share real stories and educate our community and connect families through the incredible journey of adrogacy. Thank you so much for tuning in to Adopted Adurrogate, where every story matters and every journey is worth sharing. We'll see you next time. If you enjoyed this podcast, be sure to give us a like and subscribe. Also, check out the link to our YouTube channel in the description. And be sure to also check out our children's book, My Mom Has a Super Power, sold on Amazon at the