Stop. Sit. Surrogate.

When The Journey Ends, Who Are You Next

• Kenedi & Ellen Smith • Season 5 • Episode 29

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Leslie’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leslie_kay_w?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

Sammi’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sammimichiko?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

The quiet after a delivery can be louder than labor. We sit with two retired, two-time surrogates who open up about the complicated relief of being “done,” the grief of being told no by doctors, and the surprising ways identity shifts when the calendar no longer revolves around monitoring, meds, and milk shipments. Their stories span identical twins born across the country from their dads during COVID, an emergency C-section at 30 weeks after placenta previa, and the tender joy of seeing intended parents finally hold their babies.

We move beyond the highlight reel to unpack what most guides gloss over: how to handle control when a mosaic transfer, failed cycle, or NICU stay rewrites your plan; why 90 percent of the work happens before the six-week heartbeat; and how patience becomes the most valuable skill a surrogate can learn. You’ll hear how kids, partners, and even nanny families became part of the village, why one surrogate wrote a children’s book to normalize the journey at home, and how LGBTQ family building shaped a daughter’s worldview around chosen family and acceptance.

We also map the industry’s evolution. Pre- and post-COVID journeys look different—contracts, screening, and insurance have changed—and newer models like a la carte journey management are widening access for intended parents while honoring surrogate autonomy. The takeaway is clear: do your homework, don’t chase the first offer, and remember it’s your journey too. Retired surrogates are not done; they’re essential—leading support groups, mentoring, and keeping the heart in a small, growing field.

If you’re starting, ending, or somewhere between, there’s hard-won wisdom here. Listen, share with a friend who needs real talk about surrogacy, and leave a review to help more curious, caring people find us.

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https://stopsitsurrogate.com

SPEAKER_03:

Welcome. We are a mother-daughter podcast about all things surrogacy. Together, we have brought eight beautiful babies into this world. And we would like to share through education and knowledge about surrogacy with those who want to educate themselves on the topic. This is Stop, Sit, Surrogate. Have you ever thought about growing your family but aren't sure what your options are? Or maybe you're someone who wants to help others experience the joy of parenthood? That's where Northwest Surrogacy Center comes in. Northwest Surrogacy Center is a full-service surrogacy agency that guides intended parents and surrogates through every step of the journey with compassion, transparency, and personalized care. From matching to legal support to emotional wellness, they make what can feel overwhelming feel deeply human and supported. Whether you're considering surrogacy to grow your family or you're ready to become a surrogate yourself, Northwest Surrogacy Center is there to walk beside you every step of the way. Visit Northwest SurrogacyCenter.com. That's nwsurrogacycenter.com to learn more and take the first step towards something truly life-changing. Northwest Surrogacy Center. Love makes families. Surrogacy makes babies.

SPEAKER_02:

Hey everybody, welcome back to Stops It Surrogate with Kennedy and Ellen. Today we have two lovely guests joining us. We're gonna let them introduce themselves. Uh go ahead, take it away, Leslie.

SPEAKER_00:

Hi, I'm Leslie. I'm a two-time surrogate, and I'm currently still pumping for surrogate baby, but I'm retired now.

unknown:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

Goodness, right? That can pump. My God, I love you all.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, I'm Sammy. I am also a two-time surrogate, and I am happily retired now. The last Sorrow baby's three, so yeah, yeah. Out of it for a while, right? Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, here, here. Yay.

SPEAKER_03:

I was doing the math in my head. So the baby was born in 2022.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, she just turned three last month, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

How fun. And Leslie's most recent baby was born 2024.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh yeah, she is 13 months.

SPEAKER_03:

13 months. Goodness.

SPEAKER_02:

Is there any it can I ask? Is it are you how long are we pumping for? Like, uh, is this their contract in place or uh no?

SPEAKER_00:

I'm weaning right now.

SPEAKER_02:

So okay, good for you. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So wow, I'm ready to have them back.

SPEAKER_02:

I know it's like it's literally like you have a newborn at home. Like, I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Even 13 months down the line. Well, like still as time consuming as it is in like the beginning.

SPEAKER_00:

It is washing the dishes, bagging, freezing, shipping.

SPEAKER_02:

The washing of all the pumping parts that I hear the washing is horrible. Yeah, yeah. Somebody needs to come up with a device for that where you just put them on, done.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, there's some, but they're not that great.

SPEAKER_02:

You see, they're not, yeah. My daughter, right? They're not. Great, agreed. Okay. So sorry. I diverse. I'm sorry. You're good.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, um, so today we're gonna talk about retired surrogates. Um this is gonna be either a two-parter or a three-parter. So today, I mean, goodness, let's just what? You keep looking at me like I'm a weirdo.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I'm not. I'm looking at your nails. Oh okay, they're women.

SPEAKER_03:

Those are pretty. Okay, sorry. Oh, thank you. Okay. Um, anyways, uh now I lost my train of thought. But no, we're retired surrogates. So do you guys even like the term retired for surrogates? Or inactive.

SPEAKER_01:

I think retired's good. I I say that often if I'm yeah, retired's good for me.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

But I don't think there's any negative connotation to it. Or yeah. So um sorry, give me two. You can ask a question, Mom. I'm like trying to get my my questions pulled up.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, um, I'm trying to think what we asked the last one. It's the same questions, right? Yeah, no, I'm gonna let you pull them up because I don't want to go out of order. I do not, I do not.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know what else you would say other than retired surrogate. I don't know. Somebody brought up an active, I'm not, I'm not an active surrogate.

SPEAKER_02:

Like, yeah, they put that up, but it was like, oh, that's insinuating that you could be active again.

SPEAKER_03:

Correct. So you could, you could, but you know, being in the community, you're still a part of like surrogacy. Yeah, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02:

So if a surrogate, you're re you're retired, you are you're retired. Your womb is not caring anymore for anybody else, right? You're uterus. Nope.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, well, um, just like a recap, you both have been on the podcast before, but what how many journeys have each of you done and what got you started in surrogacy?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I've done two journeys, and um, I worked, I'm a nanny, so I've worked with families through IVF, so I've seen their struggles, help them with their meds, and um so got me started. And first sorrow baby was three in July, and then the 13-month-old now. Wow.

unknown:

Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, well, my two journeys in again, my daughter's nine now, and we always knew we were one and done. And, you know, I have the privilege of having and had easy pregnancies. And so I I just kind of looked into it also way back pre-COVID. Um, I literally like walked into an office that, you know, they don't even exist anymore. Everything's remote and virtual. So it's kind of funny when I think back to like how different it was for my first journey. Um, but the first journey resulted in identical twins. They will be six in oh gosh, which is wild in January. And then I was crazy enough to do it again after having surprised twins. And again, the last sero babe will now be three. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So did you both? I'm just curious, did you both go through agencies each time? I did. I did, yeah. Okay, okay. As have I. We're uh we're all here about age. All of us here can talk about the agencies experiences, but um okay. So sorry guys, I'm my brain today.

SPEAKER_00:

We're just gonna stare at you then. I like it.

SPEAKER_03:

No, and it's don't I cut it all out because I'm like all the little awkward things that like happen that like I do on my own. You should just have a bloopers reel of all the god that would be like trying to get them because some of them are funny, some of them are like awkward and hit or miss if people will laugh. Okay, oh good, I asked that question. Look at me. Okay, do you um do you both stay in touch with any of your intended parents at all?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, I do. The first family actually uh they contacted me the other day. They're gonna go ahead and uh tell the little girl about me, like explain her. Um, so they wanted to let me know ahead of time that they've read our book to her and um because we wrote a book about her. And uh, so that's nice. And then of course I'm pumping for the second circle baby, so we are in contact right now. We'll see.

SPEAKER_03:

Also, Leslie, don't just like fly over that. What's your book name?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, Miss Daisy helps family grow. Um, my daughters and I wrote it just about our first journey.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh sweetie.

SPEAKER_00:

Can you get it anywhere? Um on Amazon.

unknown:

Okay, there you go.

SPEAKER_01:

Cool.

SPEAKER_03:

Perfect.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, yeah, no, I I keep in touch. Um, I carried for all dads, and so you know, kind of from the start, it was maybe a little simpler to uh describe needing to partner with a surrogate. So yeah, I've um I've gone to visit them. My daughter knows who they are. I could I could FaceTime them or text them right now if I wanted to. Um I've celebrated first birthdays. I I wanted to celebrate the twins' first birthday, but it was right when COVID was happening. And so um that was obviously different, but yeah, so yeah, we still keep in touch.

SPEAKER_03:

How cool. I love that for both of you. And you're both two-time, both two-time surrogates. Keep in touch with everybody. It's like we got the same person here. Goodness. Um, what were your guys' favorite parts about being a surrogate?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I think the connection for me, having the connection with the IPs, um, and then the first journey's delivery was amazing. Um having that connection with my husband that we, you know, we finished a journey, we did it. Yeah. Second journey I had an emergency C section, so that was a little different.

SPEAKER_01:

But cute. Um yeah, I uh I'm a big LGBTQ advocate and big into just showing, you know, our daughter how different families can grow and what our chosen family can look like. So I think for me it's you know, she now has this like lived experience of different families and accepting others and people are different. And so I think that side of surrogacy has been the best part because she she was two and a half when I started my first journey. So she just grew up with me being pregnant and having journeys. So yeah. Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm very similar to you, Sammy, because I started when my son, right before my son was nope, I started when my son was like one, like he was like still like a year, a year old. So he knows no difference.

SPEAKER_00:

He's just like, well, whatever. Yeah. So I mean, I have the older kids.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. I was just gonna ask. So you have teenagers who were a part of the process, which is funny because looking back, I always like for some reason, whenever we talk about surrogacy, I always am like, oh yeah, I'm my mom's only child that like grew up with surrogacy, but like I have siblings that were like teenagers, but they don't ever like talk about it, like what I mean, as much as we do. So explaining it to your teenagers, that simple conversation, like uh, okay, I'm doing a guy's like see you when you're home.

SPEAKER_00:

Like I mean, they asked questions, but they were I mean, they were great about it, as long as I didn't bring a baby home, the youngest one said. There you go. There you go. They took pictures through the journey. We wrote the book together, so they were really involved the first journey. So wow, that's cool.

SPEAKER_03:

That's very cool. I love that.

SPEAKER_02:

That's fun. Um, let's see. Because it is a family affair, it's not, I mean, you can't just get pregnant and be a certain I mean, even if you're just a single mom, not just a single mom, even if you're a single mom with a child, the child has to get involved. You have to have caretakers helping with like the transfer, watching the child. So your village has to get involved. So it's very, very important that you have support.

SPEAKER_03:

We all know that. Well, great segue, mom. Speaking of support, um, telling your guys' like friends and family or coworkers, like, did you guys get like any weird looks, backlash?

SPEAKER_00:

Was it like pretty accepting all around? Yeah, my my family and friends were pretty accepting about it. My uh my jobs were really great about it. They helped me. Um, they gave me the time off, of course, and um checked in on me, helped me with shots, so that was great.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Were you nannying the whole time you were doing surrogacy? Yeah. Wow. I can I just digress just a little bit? The lifting.

SPEAKER_00:

You're gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_02:

Were the IPs like all crazy about the lifting, or were it were you?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, first journey, they were worried about it. Second journey, the kids were a little bigger, um, so they walked. Um as much. But okay, interesting. Yeah, they all too though. It's it's uh it was a family affair with the nanny kids too. Wow, so fun.

SPEAKER_03:

That's true. It would be hard. Yeah, it would be everybody there has got to like kind of uh maneuver in a in a different way.

SPEAKER_00:

And I'm like, Yeah, when she's done growing, we give her back. Right. There you go.

SPEAKER_03:

How sweet. I love that you're like the family that you nanny and we're like, yeah, we are so supportive of this. Like, go ahead and teach our children about it. Like, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02:

That's yeah, that really is a perk, a benefit of whatever you want to call it, a an unexpected plus. I don't know. I I don't I don't I I literally got fired from a job because I was being a surrogate. So again, again, that was years ago, decades ago. Sued them one, plus yeah, but that's amazing. That that's why I kind of stopped there for a sec, because that's pretty cool. That's really cool. Yeah, that is very cool.

SPEAKER_01:

What about you, Sammy? Yeah, um, kind of similar. I mean, of course, the normal, you know, comments from people of really that's weird, you're giving away a baby, you know, the very like standard comments from some that it didn't matter anyways, what they thought. Um, I was pretty fortunate. I worked for a a really big corporate company at the time um through both of my journeys. And I mean, especially with the twin pregnancy, I lived at the doctor's office, but they were amazing. And, you know, I never had issues having to go to appointments or anything. And, you know, I, you know, they were all super involved, all my coworkers at the time. And um, my partner, we've been together 10 years now. And, you know, he's been there through both the journeys and everything. And um, it's just like such a normal part of my life now, and even neighbors that became surrogates after I did. And, you know, just like my network of some friends who did it afterwards too. Um, so I don't even like think twice about when I'm talking about it or and sometimes I kind of forget and I'm like, oh yeah, that's right. It's like not a normal thing, but it's so normal in my life that it just like comes out. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03:

We can wholeheartedly relate.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And it and we say it with such casualness, but it is like some people just kind of go, huh? What huh? And they double take it. And sometimes, yeah, I don't know. When I first was doing it, I did it as a shock factor. I was like, Yeah, this is cool. Let's just let's just blow them out of the water. But then my kids picked up on that. They started doing it. And I was like, Oh no, how am I gonna do that? But yeah, we just went with it. Just went with it. It's fun, fun dude, great.

SPEAKER_03:

It's still fun shock factor. I still use yours as a shock factor. I just said that the other day. And where I constantly am like, my mom had triplets and she didn't keep any of them, they weren't hers. And then years later, we met them again on Jennifer Hudson, and they're just like, wait, start the story over. And it's like, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

That's not the only time we met them, but okay. Okay, whatever.

SPEAKER_03:

But it's I just gave a nutshell. Right, exactly. Um, okay, so I I am curious, did you ladies both decide on your own to be done with surrogacy, or were you told that, like, okay, nope, like you should not continue on?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, um, I was told. Um, yeah. So I had emergency C section and placenta previous and um many bleeds, and I had her at 30 weeks. So I had to do it for a friend, and their clinic thought they were gonna approve me, and then they looked into the records more and decided that another time.

SPEAKER_03:

So that's disappointing.

SPEAKER_00:

How did you um can I ask how you dealt with that mentally? Um, I still deal with it mentally, honestly. I mean, sometimes it's harder, especially right now with the hormones of pumping and stopping and yeah. But yeah, it's trying to think about what my life's gonna be like now because it's all been about surrogacy for like five years. Yeah, yeah, that's a hard one.

SPEAKER_02:

Who am I, you know? Right? Well, you're a hero is what you are. But yeah, um, yeah, that's it's a tough because when you're told you can't continue to do something, like like I was told I couldn't, right? So so I had to like look at it in in little boxes. I always compartmentalized stuff. And so it was just like, okay, well, I guess I yeah, I need to be here to be my kid's mom. Like that was my first and foremost, and that's what kept me like, okay, I guess I can't do it. Uh okay, well, maybe I can. Maybe I'll go independent. And I even looked, I even looked for independent, even did, had some had some nibbles. I'm like, something's talking to you, just stop. Yeah, stop. But it's hard. It's hard when you don't get to decide. Yeah. You Sammy.

SPEAKER_01:

Um it it definitely was my choice, but now I also can't, which I think is the weird. Sometimes I still think about it. Um I it was my third C-section. I went into my third pregnancy knowing it was gonna be my third C-section. Um, I'm a little older and I wanted to be done being pregnant. I was, I felt like I was pregnant for, you know, six years. Um, so I definitely went into it knowing it was my last. Um, but then I I had a pretty traumatic delivery. And you know, now I would absolutely never be approved, even if I wanted to. So I don't know if it's like I wouldn't have done it. I I wouldn't do it again.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

But you're right, it's still that like, well, I can't. So I still think about it. Like, I, you know, it's not that I couldn't even be a surrogate again. Like I safely can't carry another pregnancy. Um, which I think that part again, but we always knew we were gonna have one child. Um, but it really plays into, you know, and we've all heard it from fellow people who are like, well, I want to be a surrogate, but I'm not done with my family yet. It's like there is a true risk. Um, you know, you need to be done because yeah, I safely couldn't even carry, not even the approval part. So um that part gets me every now and then. But yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I can I can only imagine. I mean, like even though it was your decision, it's still the you still were able to, for a time, you still were able to like linger on the fact of like I can do this again. Like maybe I could like whatever. Like, yeah, sure. Like the little glimmer of hope or whatever you want to call it was like still there, but then it being kind of like taken.

SPEAKER_02:

It's not a finality, yeah. But in these cases, it's a finality, like it all three of us, it's a finality. Like uh, not you can, but well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03:

Uh I don't know if I would qualify now. Why the hell not? Because I'm on lifelong now. So sorry, so sorry. Like, wait, right. So it's like it's a very interesting thing. So it's like, oh crap, like I wasn't expecting that. So I just I choose to not process this right now. There you go.

SPEAKER_01:

I will say there is like for me, there's a refreshing side of it too, and you know, sense like my tubes are tied, like all the things, like I will not be pregnant again.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and so it is this like, oh, I don't have to go through that again. Like, there is a little bit of like a light at the end of the tunnel, and then I see pregnant people and like you know, talking about labor and whatever it is, and I'm like, I don't have to worry about any of that. The doctor's appointments that I don't have to like take time out of my day to go to. And uh, so that's kind of a nice like transition. I feel like I've come to that piece of it. Uh yeah, like of like being able to have like body again, right? Yeah, your life back, your yeah. It's starting to see so invasive and time consuming. I don't have to deal with that anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I'm just thinking, what am I gonna do with my time? Yeah. Like yeah. So much free time, you know, because it's true. I mean, the shots and the appointments and and of course pumping right now, but it's like and just the exhaustion of pregnancy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep. Yep. And you get all this time back and you're like, wow.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

What are you gonna do, Leslie? Have you thought about it? Like, do you wanna like like obvious I know, I know, because you have a Facebook group, right? Do you want to give that a plug?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I have a uh surrogate buy, sell, borrow, swap Facebook group. So um surrogates can post things that help other surrogates and trade things off. And um, I'm actually a local surrogate contacted me uh at the first for journey. And the other day she said, I'm in third trimester. Do you know any support groups in the area? So I found five surrogates locally, and we're meeting up Sunday for like a minute.

SPEAKER_04:

Cute.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, so I'm just gonna stay involved in the community. Um, but of course, working out, I'm gonna make sure I get back, you know, my body back. And um, my girls are older, so um, we're like nesters, so we can do it.

SPEAKER_02:

You'll you'll find stuff. You'll find stuff well.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, you're gonna stay in the community. I I know that. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. And Sammy, I think the last time we talked to you, you were working in the in the industry.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I still I am still so that uh when my journeys ended, and like long story short, six months later, the company I worked for, they closed down. They got massive layoffs. And so 10 years in corporate America, two surrogacy journeys, my daughter, and then I get laid off, right? I'm six months postpartum. Uh so then it was really like, well, now what do I do? Um, and so looking for new work, which I hadn't done in 10 years, um, I didn't even have a resume, like it'd been so long. And um, so then I was like, well, I might as well I enjoy surrogacy, I'm passionate about it. I just completed two journeys. So yeah, then I started looking for work in the industry, which is a feat in itself. Um, but yeah, so I I do still currently work for Nodal surrogacy. I am their head of surrogate experience. So everything start to finish when they come through the doors and deliver. Um, I will help them at some point. So I am still very much so in the community, um, which I think also like Leslie to your point, it kind of helps, right? Like still having that connection, talking about it every day. Um, and then helping, you know, a company grow. So it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00:

It's cool. Yeah, I've applied for many jobs in the industry, and it's hard because everybody wants to be in the industry. Yeah, right. Uh right.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. It's tough for sure to get to even get that foot in the door sometimes. We'll be right back.

SPEAKER_03:

But first, I want to take a quick moment to talk about something close to my heart, helping families grow through surrogacy. If you've ever thought about becoming a surrogate or if you're an intended parent ready to start your journey, Paying It Forward Surrogacy is here to guide you every step of the way. At Paying It Forward Surrogacy, you're not just a number. You're supported, celebrated, and connected with real people who've walked this path before. Whether you're just starting to explore or ready to take the next step, they'll make sure you feel informed, empowered, and cared for from day one. Visit Paying It Forward Surrogacy.com to learn more. That's Payingit Forward Surrogacy.com. Because every journey to parenthood deserves heart, honesty, and the right support. Now let's get back to the episode. So yeah. It very much is. Are you on the are you on that on that Facebook group? Yes. Oh, yeah. Okay. I was like, go to the Facebook group. I mean, I've seen I see jobs posted there every now and then. I mean, gosh, years ago I I applied and I worked for a company for like a hot minute, but then it was too too too much to with my day job and that and everything else.

SPEAKER_01:

But yeah, it's it's it's hard. I mean, one job gets posted and like 30 people are you know, it's a lot.

SPEAKER_03:

It's a lot, yeah. It's which is which is sad because it's like so many people want to help in the community, and it's like, ah, like how is there not more opportunities for more experienced people?

SPEAKER_01:

For us, you know, because again, we live and breathe this, like like we said before, we think surrogacy is huge because it is so big in our lives, but it's such a tiny, tiny, itty bitty industry in the grand scheme of corporate America that just it's like it's a drop in the pond, right? But we think it's huge because we live and breathe it every day, right?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, that is it's hard. It's a big small community, right? It's yeah, yeah, it very much is. But it's it's a fun one. Um, how has surrogacy changed your life or perspective on family?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, well, I guess it's bigger, it's it's changed my family. So, like my daughter wants to do egg donation. Kennedy, the video, my oldest made a video about me being a surrogate. So just seeing that it has changed my daughters' lives and opened their mind to different possibilities has been great.

SPEAKER_02:

I love that. How are you, mom, with her wanting to donate eggs? Just curious.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh well, I just don't want grandbabies right now.

SPEAKER_01:

Um Yeah, I mean, again, it is interesting because like we just said, it's it's this massive part of it, it is my life now and continuing on. And um, you know, even when you go to the doctor for something different now and it's like, how many kids? Oh, well, you and you're like, well, one, but a four and three, you know, so like those types of things of like how's it changed your life, not always in the like positive ways, but in the ways of like you have to remember, because I really like forget about those pregnancies, which is kind of crazy. Um, so having to remember all of that. But I I don't know. I don't know where, you know, having been laid off and had I not had those journeys and had I not had the experience and now gotten into the world where I am now and helping others. Um I mean, who knows where I would have been without Saragosy. I'm not sure uh or how different it could have been. So I don't know if that's the exact answer of how it changed my life, but it it shaped it in a different way for sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, yeah, because it's led you to where you are now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03:

I know. That's very very um, it's funny how things happen, right? I mean, everything I always I'm a strong believer in everything happens for a reason. Um, but it's just and a lot of the times I always say, I'm a strong believer in everything happens for a reason. I often don't know the reason, which is aggravating, but you know, years down the line you end up finding out, and then you're like, oh, okay, it all makes sense now. But it's the it's the unknowing of it all, right? Of like, oh, was this the right decision? And yeah, it it is. It is, or no, it wasn't.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_03:

But Leslie, I want to go back to you real quick because you said your daughter's gonna donate eggs. That is so amazing and like wild, like because she's young, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, uh, my oldest is 21, yeah. Okay, scared of needles, so I doubt that would happen.

SPEAKER_03:

She doesn't do it scared of needles at all. So that may not happen, but it's an idea that she has, like, she wants to give back because like she saw her mom, like you know, doing something so amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. That's really cool. Doesn't want to get pregnant at all, ever. So she's 18. So very different.

SPEAKER_02:

My friend who used to donate eggs, and she would always say, I'm losing one every month anyway, through my cycle. So why can't somebody else use them? And I'm thinking, yeah, uh-huh. Yep, yep, good for you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I was that the doctor said that he still saw eggs up there, and I've had my tubes tied since I was in my twenties. Wow. I still have eggs. Okay, that's that's strange too. Yeah. Because we're born with them.

SPEAKER_03:

We're born with them. We are. Yeah. Um, let's see. When you think back on your journeys, is there a moment that stands out to you of like maybe either a lesson that you learned along the way or something that was horrible or amazing?

SPEAKER_00:

Hopefully amazing.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know, Sammy, you can take that one.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely like a few key moments, even in both journeys. I I think, you know, we all go into our first journey with being a little naive. We definitely don't know as much, of course, like anything you do for the first time. Um and I I remember, so I with the twins and they came early, of course, and earlier than when uh the dads were expecting to come out. They lived across the country, so they missed the delivery, which was a I mean, it was a C-section anyways, it was okay, but they got there later that evening. And um I remember vividly them, you know, they went to the NICU and they like went into the NICU. I was there, and I remember like audibly like letting out a breath. And I was like, I think I've been holding my breath this whole entire pregnancy, and like you don't realize it until it was over. They were born and healthy, they were with their parents, and then I was like, oh, okay, take me back. I was in a wheelchair. I was like, okay, we can go back to my room now. But it was I instantly like felt better, and I must have just been holding this tension, I think, the whole entire pregnancy, but like never realized it. Um, so I remember that, and so going into my second journey, um, I tried to like let go of that stress, like every appointment. It was like, well, it's gonna be what it's gonna be. Or, you know, I I definitely didn't worry as much um as I I guess I feel like I was the first time, and it is getting you just we learn more, right? As the journeys go on.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um but other than that, I mean, I think even now, still working in the industry, like the one pointer if I could give to any new surrogate um is patience. Just learn patience. You might do 10 things in one day for a journey, and then you'll do nothing for another month. I know it's like it's exciting and we want to like keep moving through it, but it really taught me patience and patience with the healthcare system and all the things, but um yeah, I've learned a little more patience through cervic journeys.

SPEAKER_03:

I can second that.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's you can't control anything at all.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you're at the mercy of the clinics and the doctors, and is what it is. Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah, I had a high risk uh second one. The first journey went okay, pretty smooth. And then the second was high risk, and that's that's what I learned is just to let it go, let it be. If something's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. You know, it's out of my control. You know, the doctors tell you it's out of your control, so just kind of roll with it. We called it a roller coaster. So um learning to roll with the punches, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_02:

It's hard for us because uh surrogates we like to be in control. We you know, we're we do. I I have to admit it. And okay, can you elaborate? Because that's gonna be taken so out of time. We like to be in okay, we've all been pregnant before. It's the only way we can be a surrogate, right? Our pregnancies were good. You wouldn't have gotten approved if they weren't, right? So we all feel that yeah, our pregnancies, yo, yeah, great, we're gonna have no problems. And then when you're hit with high risk, you're hit with, oh my gosh, spontaneous identical twins. Now you're in a different category. Like, we don't, we can't control that. We can't, and they're not our children. So the breath part where you let go of your breath, like I think every surrogate holds on to that a little bit just because you you you gotta get them to where they're safe and you can give them back to their parents. Like it's not that we wouldn't do any less for our own children, but there's that increased layer that you just have to, yeah, you do want to exhale, but you can't until they're here. Yeah, I I get all of it. Yeah. And and the control part, I hopefully I explained it. But yeah, we're all you want it to just go smoothly, but when some when you get a little diversion or a little fork in the road, mm-patience is huge, like Sammy said, and you you don't have control, you don't, and you just have to learn how to deal with that. You have to, or you're gonna stress yourself out in the anxiety level, and then everything's gonna go to, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and I think in the same vein of, you know, surrogates, I think a trait that I've noticed that most all have. One, we're all givers, obviously. Like that makes sense. Like, and right, most are really organized, and um you you do you you come into this knowing you've had seemingly healthy pregnancies, but that doesn't mean that you know how a surrogacy pregnancy is gonna go. It doesn't mean that we get to act like we know more than the fertility doctors. True. It doesn't mean that we get to control what the IVF clinic is telling us.

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

We've gotta you gotta give it up a little bit and let go of that control. You're right. Um and you just gotta go with the flow because yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Happier journey if you do. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And I mean, to an extent, like if you're extremely uncomfortable with like a medical procedure that's maybe not like necessary to medically necessary to go on, then like, you know, of course, like speak up. But like for the normal, like basic pregnancies, there's just weird crap that can just come up. Just gotta deal.

SPEAKER_01:

I feel like I say this a lot that the bulk of the work of a journey is before that six-week heartbeat confirmation.

unknown:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

Everything you're doing in a journey and your compensation isn't necessarily starting, really, until that point. But 90% of the work is all in those beginning stages. For our own pregnancies, we didn't even know we were pregnant until six, eight, ten weeks. Yeah, right. So it is kind of a mind shift again. The being naive as a first-time surrogate, as we all were, is like, oh, this is a lot of work and preparation. And then once you get to six weeks, heartbeat, eight weeks, hopefully, then 10 weeks, go on. Yeah. And then that's when it hopefully becomes easier, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. Less appointments, less less of a strict guidelines to now you're just back to being pregnant.

SPEAKER_00:

I always surrogates the reach out to me because they they find me on social media. Um, you know, they they want to know about surrogacy. And I don't ever want to scare them, but I just want them to know like it's not just getting pregnant. You know, and then once you are pregnant, things can come up and you could have an easy journey, or you can have like like we had a field transfer, we then we transferred a mosaic, then we had, you know, extra testing, and then we had the placenta pre, you know, like all of those came up, but my first journey was different, you know. So these surrogates that come in, they just think, Oh, I'm just gonna get pregnant. And you know, I want them to know, like, yes, but you know, be prepared for anything. I mean, never know what's gonna happen. Correct.

SPEAKER_03:

Open their eyes. Right. And yeah, I'm gonna admit something that I've really never like said out loud, but like it's being recorded, right? Okay, wait, yeah, it's being recorded. It's being recorded. It's not it's nothing to like give Ellen a one-up. Like, sorry. Um, no, but like, okay, so I had my son at 20, just naive me. Ah, it's all gonna go great. It went great. Um, I went on to have three beautiful, well, good pregnancies. We'll just call it like that. Literally never, never, never had the the forethought to like hold my breath. I was like, oh, whatever, I like did this with my son, it was great, whatever. Like, I'm everything's great. Doctors always said everything was great. That last pregnancy was the only time where I was like, hmm, maybe, maybe we need to like think of like possible like horrible situations that are about to arise. But you know, never really thought of that. And so now, but after doing this podcast, I'm like, Jesus Christ, Kennedy, why did we never think of all of the awful things that could happen? Like, what were we doing? We were living in a beautiful place.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03:

It's great.

SPEAKER_01:

Don't borrow trouble.

SPEAKER_03:

Part of it where it's like, don't worry about what you can't, like, but I was I was so naive doing it three times, naive as could be. Doing this podcast, I'm like petrified to get pregnant myself now. I'm like, oh my gosh, I've heard all the things I don't, oh my gosh, like and it's just it's so it's so wild, just how it all my mindset of it all, because you're absolutely right, Leslie. Like, yes, everybody wants to get pregnant and it wants to be beautiful and it's gonna, it's gonna be what it is, but it's and it's not to be like go back and listen to you know, like all of these caution tail stories, but like it's good to have information. Sometimes a too much information is a little overwhelming, but it's always good to be prepared for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it's all circular, like in the end, it's all worth it. I mean, you know, all of that doesn't matter no matter what you went through, it's worth it in the end, but just you know, no journeys can go different ways.

SPEAKER_03:

A hundred percent, a hundred percent. So and the the caution tales that the agencies tell you, they're real. They're real, they're not they're not just for to scare you, and it's not to scare you. Like the caution tales that everybody shares are not too scare you, they're just to be like, hey, you ever think of like what would happen if you're in this type of situation?

SPEAKER_00:

So that's my little there's healthy Sorrow babies now, so we're getting it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, we're all good, right? We've all had healthy, healthy babies. We all did our goals, it's all good. It's all good.

SPEAKER_02:

And that's the outcome that everybody wanted. So however you get there, if you have to go on bed rest, if you have it's not the end of the world, you you're gonna get off bed rest once the baby's born. Like it's gonna be all right. Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

How though mentally that would take a toll on people?

SPEAKER_02:

It would. It would.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Um this is a good question. Um how do you handle seeing others in the community start? new journeys when you're retired.

SPEAKER_00:

For me, I just wanna like I'm in my serial support era, I guess I could say. So I just want to support them now that I have the time. Um so for me it's it's happy, especially when I see them coming back for like their second or third. Yeah. You know, and now I can be here and follow their journey and and help them out if they need it. So very true.

SPEAKER_01:

I think um on like an unrealistic note and because I work in the industry now, but I because I get to meet so many intended parents now, um I'm like, oh can I do this like 10 more times? Oh you know and so with our you know with my journeys and my I mean my intended parents I'm super spoiled and lucky they're they're both amazing or two different families are both amazing. But yeah I see I I talk with intended parents every day and it's like oh I would have carried for them. I would have cared for them. And so then when I see the surrogates that I've helped coach and you know come through our program and then match I'm like oh that well you're gonna have a great journey like they're amazing intended parents like I'm kind of jealous. But anyway, you know so that's that part's a little hard because again I work in it. If I didn't work in the industry I wouldn't really know any different but I uh maybe to your question Kennedy it doesn't bother me to see people continuing on with journeys I am happy to not be pregnant again.

SPEAKER_03:

So for sure I get that no I I get that I can relate in a you know I mean heck I'm gonna throw out some names right now but like Rachel Tara and me all kind of started at the same time and for a while I was like I I because I I'm I love them and I support them. I'm so happy for them but like um like my little jealousy bug was just like why why like what like you know why not me too but it's it's it's so amazing to see the girls in the community like go on especially when you know their their journey and like what people have been through to get to like where they are now it's it's really nice to to see everybody. It's I love it.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm just gonna put something out there because I firmly believe things happen for reasons and I firmly believe that your most magical journey if you decide to do this again Kennedy is waiting. It's waiting. Well I'm fine I'm waiting oh I'm I'm in a peace era right now I'm great they're out there and you're out there and you guys have no idea you're gonna meet yet and it's all I have dreams totally not even thinking of that.

SPEAKER_03:

Just you know so good so happy that that the past two years I was with my I am she healed me in ways I never imagined even though there was no baby at the end of it like happened for reasons. Best thing yeah there you go but yeah what um I'm also in my surrogate support era Leslie but mom what about you because I mean goodness you haven't we talk surrogacy all the time and like you always say like I would do it again and it's like do it again.

SPEAKER_02:

My yourself wouldn't do it again but if I were you know late 40s hell yeah hell yeah I tried believe me I tried in 40s in my 40s and they were like nope I mean it was a closed door they wouldn't even look at you if you were 40. I literally got pregnant with the last one right after my 40th birthday. So I was literally 40. Yeah. So when I was 41 she was born I was like oh there you go. So yeah they wouldn't even talk to you. But now I understand you know different clinics approve different things. That's great. But to see what flabbergasts me and make puts the biggest smile in my heart is to see how much surrogacy has grown. It's not two and three little agencies it's a ton. You you there are so many different ways that IPs are being helped from those that are like barely scraping by to be able to afford it to those who can pay their surrogate six figures. Like it is all across the ranges now. When I was doing it it was not it it was not if you didn't have that pocketbook behind you forget it. You you weren't able to do this crazy there's there's there's places men having babies there's all kinds of places that give little stipends and give little um what do you call those not gift cards but like grants there you go yeah to people to help them so the fact that it's come this far in 22 years just floors me floors me and I love it. I absolutely love it. So to see people go on and having babies through surrogacy and the number of surrogates that are involved and the good number of surrogates that are involved like these are you guys are good people. Like everyone we've talked to on this podcast like seriously how many people are such good people um if it amazes me and I'm just the fact that I'm even part of this just little part on this podcast is very very cool. Is really it is it's sweet.

SPEAKER_01:

It's yeah I it's amazing the difference from then to now amazing for the good for the I feel that even just in from my first journey I guess now seven years yeah seven and a half eight years ago and again pre-COVID I do think I think there's a pre-COVID and a post COVID even surrogate as well. Having a journey that fell before and after it they were both super different journeys and the contracts were so different and screening and just all the things and that's only been in the past seven eight years.

SPEAKER_02:

So I imagine yeah how much change you've seen yeah yeah and and to just be on that I'm so glad that it's not just two or three little agencies. I'm so glad that everyone is getting getting to put their if they feel they can run an agency and they can do well there's some really good ones out there and the fact that they've popped up and they can they have repeat surrogates coming back time after time and people are happy that above anything else and then the birth of healthy babies for IPs huge to me huge because we didn't have a choice we had like three not even kidding even the boutique agencies these days are like so amazing and like nodal right completely different it's not it's it's still not an agency right it's like matching we do we do um full journey management as well but it's it's kind of a la carte.

SPEAKER_01:

So we'll meet the intended parents and surrogates like where they want help but to your point you know Ellen it's not it doesn't have to just be for the people with the really big pocket right exactly still wildly expensive but the way that our intended parents um can pick what they can afford they can pick like the support that they need and of course the surrogate like agrees as well like what they're comfortable with too um but it can definitely be more affordable than that's I love it packages.

SPEAKER_02:

I love it because there's some IPs out the great can be fantastic parents and are fantastic parents once they just have they just need to get somebody to help yeah somebody to help and I think surrogacy's done that I really I really do across all all planes all all all economic socio economic everyone I think it's great.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah I met someone locally this someone gave uh IPs my number and of course I couldn't do a journey for them but I had to add a local surrogate to contact me on social media so I actually put them together and they're starting their journey independently for to go through an agency so I felt good to contact them on their income levels I guess.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes happen for reasons.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah they sure do uh do you guys think that or ladies sorry I always say guys do you ladies think that um agencies or you know people in the in people who work in the industry should incorporate more retired surrogates in community events yeah I think it I think it depends on what the event is or you know what their uh current staff or or whatnot looks like but I mean even just for Nodal we um our intake team is experienced surrogates so that first person you're talking to's been through it right um again I head the department so I'm really seeing it through the lens of an experienced surrogate sometimes it's kind of odd when I do see and and no fault to it and again I've worked in corporate America I get it but when there are departments of first surrogacy ran and they haven't been a surrogate before it's not that they don't have the professional experience but I'm like you don't you don't know what it feels like. Right you can't describe it's it's so hard to describe already to somebody who hasn't done it let alone trying to help them through their journey like so anywho but so to your point Kenny yeah I do think that having experienced surrogates retired surrogates a part of all things surrogacy related because it's the only way we're gonna help the next generation of surrogates is those of us who have done it and had good stories and can share those.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah so yes retired surrogates should run the support groups for agencies. Yeah sometimes the people that they have running the support groups have not been surrogates and they don't know what we've gone through so they can't help us in the situation. They might have degrees behind their names but they don't they don't have the experience.

SPEAKER_01:

Correct speaking from experience we have people with degrees not people with experience and you were like what yeah okay yeah and then you know and I don't think that like everybody in a surrogacy agency has to have like that personal right like it's still in a company but but the people that are on your front lines talking to your surrogates you just you have to yeah yeah agreed yeah what is something that you guys would say to someone nearing the end of their surrogacy journey um that that final moment is just the most amazing thing you'll experience no matter what the journey ended like even with mine the 30 week delivery once she came out at 30 weeks and took a big cry it still was the most amazing moment knowing that you did your job. Yeah a healthy baby and yeah yeah yeah I don't really have anything to add to that because I you're right I do think and you you forget about the injections you forget about the shots you forget about reading your legal contracts 10 times you get to that point of again letting go of that breath and the baby or babies are you know with with their rightful parent or parents so yeah yeah you forget about all the other things in that moment and I said it on part one job well done job well done and then you get to go home and have a full night's sleep.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah right exactly you can do pumping yeah Leslie who's pumping right Leslie it's coming yeah I'm trying to go maybe 24 hours so we'll see if I can get a we'll see oh how funny oh my gosh was there anything else that you ladies would like to add for anybody who's either looking to begin their surrogacy journey or end it or any tidbits in between I think your journey just do your research talk to other surrogates and make sure that you're not just jumping into the first offer you see or the the biggest amount of money that an agency is going to give you do your research.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly 100% I I I say this a lot and you know surrogates and maybe Ellen before didn't have as much choice or as much transparency or as much uh information or education given to them but you know surrogates are not second class to this process at all and I do think sometimes we can feel that way or feel like we don't have a say or we don't get a choice or we can't make changes or we can't advocate for ourselves but you can uh you absolutely have a choice and if an agency or somewhere is going to tell you you don't get a choice in that, well then go somewhere else and talk to another place or talk to other people because it is absolutely just as much a surrogate's journey as it is the intended parents journey.

SPEAKER_02:

So we don't have to settle um yeah yeah very love that it should all be on a t-shirt or a or a or a bumper sticker all of that because you're right it is the surrogate's journey and the IP's journey granted they hold the purse strings I understand that they're paying for the majority of it I get it but you shouldn't be treated like a second class citizen. So that's another huge difference from back then to now we were yeah and it's still even I feel like it's still shifting a little it's still taking time just like everything but um even more so now like yeah if we are not advocating for it or speaking up for it who is correct yeah correct it's a village yeah it very much is my gosh well thank you ladies so much this was so fun talking to you both again thank you thanks for your time ladies very insightful information very love it see you next time all right yeah see you guys next time thank you welcome by wow different perspectives that's kind of cool that was cool that was cool I like that that we're not you're not second class that it's your journey too and I know this is about retired surrogates but that last part that um Sammy said was yeah very very insightful very insightful it it it was and it's and she's right I mean it's there's it's definitely been a big change from when you did it I know to and even from when she did it that's amazing seven years she's seen the change yeah that's true you have too you did pre-COVID and post COVID I did pre-COVID and during COVID during COVID during covet you did and then post COVID I guess if you count the fourth one but yeah and it's it's it's massively different.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean I will constantly say the insurance is the biggest change for me. Like that is the most wild change that I've seen but still just the how they do things and everything like that. But and you know and again and it'll be interesting to see where it is when I'm your age like wow yes 30 more years Jesus God yeah around in this area.

SPEAKER_02:

But like yeah wow yeah yeah it's nice to see it that's come this far as a way it has a little bit to go but it's come very very far.

SPEAKER_03:

But also like when you're a retired when you're a retired surrogate or an inactive surrogate whatever you want to call it like you you can still be a part of the community. Whereas like you like it was just like done by see you later like never doing surrogacy in your life again type situation.

SPEAKER_02:

And thinking going back when you were all talking about that and thinking about that it was a struggle. Yeah mentally it really was it was such a huge part of my life for five years we did all three in five years that boom it's done and you're like huh what huh? And you recover and you had to I was like oh my gosh and I really think you know just yeah it there was a lot. Well yeah because you there were no support groups there weren't so I had to figure it out for myself and so I just I literally just decided I'm changing careers and I'm going to help people another way and I did great exactly and that's that's how I dealt with it but you're right it's I'm so happy there's support groups and that you guys are all connected in some way even if you just have one person you can talk to through surrogacy like talk to them talk to them.

SPEAKER_03:

Social media is I know really great for this I know so weird. What was it called MySpace I was gonna say Alan did you not have a MySpace with a song like this was my I remember MySpace and I'm like the end of the millennials nope didn't have one at all but none of this was shared on could you imagine just like MySpace surrogates like hilarious I would have been like sought out and shot or something like the I don't think that would have happened if I shared some of the stuff I was going through as a surrogate on like a social platform like that maybe it would just be dubbed as like crazy I don't think like someone would come and hunt you I okay all right you think you what you think I'll think what I think okay okay I said with the tranquilizer gun not with a real one no okay anyways if anybody has any questions or stories they would like to share they can be as crazy as Ellen's um you can feel free to reach out to us on Instagram at stop period sit period surrogate or email us at stop period sit period surrogate at gmail dot com. And this has been another episode of Stopsit Surrogate with Kennedy and Ellen Thanks everybody bye bye before we wrap up we want to give a huge thank you to our sponsors Northwest surrogacy center New York Surrogacy center paying it forward surrogacy their continued support helps us share real stories to educate our community and connect families through the incredible journey of surrogacy thanks so much for tuning in to Stopsit surrogate where every story matters and every journey is worth sharing.

SPEAKER_02:

We'll see you next time if you enjoyed this podcast be sure to give us a like and subscribe also check out the link to our YouTube channel in the description and be sure to also check out our children's book My Mom has superpowers sold on Amazon and Etsy