Surrogacy And Adoption Are Not The Same Thing

 #surrogacy #ivf #surrogate 

Amanda’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/amandas.progression?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ== 

Rachel's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/blackgirlsoven?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== 

“Why don’t they just adopt?” gets thrown at intended parents and surrogates like it’s a simple fix. We slow that down and tell the truth: adoption and surrogacy can both lead to a child, but the process, the power dynamics, the legal risk, and the lifelong identity questions are not the same thing. 

We’re joined by two guests who bring real lived experience to the table. Amanda is a mom, stepmom to adoptees, and a surrogate mom, with a front-row seat to how foster care adoption can be loving and still incredibly complicated. Rachel is a surrogate and an adoptee who found out she was adopted at 17, and she does not sugarcoat what it feels like when strangers try to assign you “trauma” or tell you who your “real” family is. Together, we talk open adoption vs closed adoption, the reality that “open” is often not legally binding, and how reunion can be healing and messy at the same time. 

We also get practical about the stuff nobody warns you about: missing medical history, sealed records and amended birth certificates, and why surrogacy often has more structure around expectations, consent, and support. We push back on the “selling babies” myth, unpack how celebrity narratives distort surrogacy, and explain why adoption is not some free, easy alternative. 

If you care about ethical family building, adoption ethics, gestational surrogacy, and honest origin stories for kids, this conversation will stick with you. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs a better framework than hot takes, and leave us a review with the biggest myth you want us to tackle next.

https://stopsitsurrogate.com

Transcript

Welcome And Sponsor Message

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome. We are a mother-daughter podcast about all things surrogacy. Together, we have brought eight beautiful babies into this world. And we would like to share through education and knowledge about surrogacy with those who want to educate themselves on the topic. This is Top Fit Surrogate. This episode is sponsored by U.S. Surrogacy LLC. If you've ever dreamed of helping grow a family or are hoping to grow your own, U.S. Surrogacy LLC is here to guide you every step of the way. They are a dedicated surrogacy agency committed to supporting intended parents and surrogates through a compassionate, ethical, and well-supported journey. U.S. Surrogacy LLC works with amazing women who want to make a life-changing difference by becoming a surrogate while also helping intended parents experience the incredible gift of parenthood. Their team focuses on transparency, strong communication, and personalized support so that everyone involved feels confident, cared for, and informed throughout the entire process. If you've ever considered becoming a surrogate, or if you're an intended parent exploring your options, US Surrogacy LLC is ready to help you take that next step. To learn more about their programs and how you can get started, visit us-surrogacy.com. That's us-surrogacy.com. And now let's get into today's episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Stop Isit Surrogate with Kennedy and Ellen. We've got another edition of Friday Facts with two lovely guests. We're gonna let them introduce themselves. Go ahead, Amanda.

SPEAKER_04 1:41

Hi, I'm Amanda. I am a mom of three, a stepmom of three, and a surrogate mom of three. Did I say that already? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Is that three squared? Yeah, three squared.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

And I'm in Pennsylvania. Nice.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

And I am Rachel, and I am a Tuesday's surrogate, a mom of two. And I'm here in Nevada. And yeah. And I'm in my postpartum. Oh right now. So how old's Sir has been he is time. Well, shoot.

SPEAKER_04 2:23

Yeah, we were right around the same time. So four months four months. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Yeah. And I actually just got a card today from them. Oh so it's so freaking cute. I'm like.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

So love it.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

That's so sweet. I forgot that you guys were around the same time. That's pretty cool. Oh my god, how funny. Because we were just talking, we were just talking with Amanda. Because yours is five months.

SPEAKER_04 2:52

No, she well, no, she must be four months because December to March, eight.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Fourth. That was like end. Yeah, that was like end December. So December 30th. I was the 17th.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Oh, okay. You're like dates, like weeks. Yeah.

Why People Compare Adoption And Surrogacy

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Yeah, seriously. Oh, how funny. Small world, this commute this uh surrogacy world is. Yeah. Um, okay, so well, today we're gonna talk about surrogacy and adoption, how they're I guess pros, cons, differences. I don't know. We'll see where it leads. Um it's kind of fun. I'm just gonna throw it out there so that way people already know. Amanda, I don't think you're adopted, but my mom and Rachel are. I know you were adopted, Rachelin. I swear to God, we've done this podcast for years. You have known this.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

And my stepchildren are adopted.

unknown 3:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 3:48

Adopted by you or adopted in my husband and his ex-wife.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

No, no, she said you said that on a podcast. And I'm in my senior decades, so uh things I just go.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

It's not good. Well, this is gonna be super informative and super fun. Um, I have no adoption in my little niche, so um, this will just be you guys for that. Uh, but okay, so well, I guess we could start with uh because like people often compare surrogacy and adoption or you know, have a comment on it. Um where do you guys think they're they're getting that idea possibly?

SPEAKER_04 4:35

I don't really know. I mean, so I'm into some adoption pages as a stepmom to adoptees trying to always do the right thing by these adopted kids. Um and I feel like a lot of people feel like negative things about it because if the even though the child's not related to you, they feel like there's that separation between the person the birthgiver and the child. As far as on adoption pages, surrogacy is usually also viewed uh somewhat negatively if you're looking at that side of things. And because there's there's some real in the adoption community, the adoptee community, which can be a very fierce community. Um and then on the other side of things, it's like when you're working with egg donors, it's like or or sperm donors or whatever, adopted embryos, people feel very much like, well, they should know their biological history and all the things. And I think I think in the community, the parts that overlap are the child should never be kept in the dark about their origin.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Agreed.

Secrecy And Stigma Around Origins

SPEAKER_04 5:55

Like lying to a child about where they came from. Right. So whether that's adoption, you know, it was big back in the day to never tell the child they were adopted, never, and then finding out years later. And same with surrogacy, you know, with gay couples, obviously it's like you can't really lie about it, right? Um, but with straight couples, there could be some, you know, withholding of information. And I think that's where there is some overlap.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

Yeah. That's a fair perspective on it. Do you have a similar one, Mom? Like, did you get that a lot back then? Like, was there a lot of judgment of like, oh, they should just adopt like 20 years ago?

SPEAKER_01 6:36

So, like what, when I was doing surrogacy or yeah, no, like yeah, when you were doing surrogacy. No, the big push was it was because a lot of the gay community was very involved. Like, this is the only way that they were getting biological children, and so it it was very friendly towards them, them, yeah. It was more on the if a heterosexual couple was using surrogacy, why why why why do you need that? So, as far as I'm concerned with adoption, a big stigma on that because of the year I was adopted, you know, way back in the 60s. Big stigma on that. We couldn't tell people we knew as kids, we weren't allowed to tell anybody.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

No, no, tell anybody. Yeah, we weren't, and it was it was like you had to hold the secret. Why? Why do I have to hold that secret? I'm legally yours, stop. Like, yeah, no, yeah, so it was weird.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

That is weird.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

That is weird.

unknown 7:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

I'm wondering if, like, because people were so quiet about why because infertility, you know, it's so like hush hush, or at least it used to be. Yeah, so I think maybe that's why people are like, Well, why don't you just adopt then or this or that, or you know, because people don't want to say that they're struggling, you know?

SPEAKER_01 7:48

It's almost like a failure, but it's not, we know it's not. Yeah, their body failed them.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

I mean insecurity, it could be it's considered an insecurity. I mean, I'm sure, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

So, like, why when you're in your most vulnerable time, I don't need to share my business and air that with people, but the world there is that huge biological connection with some people, they really want the biological connection, and I can't fault them for that. I can't. Having my own kids, I was like, uh, yeah, there it is. There's the nose, there's the there it is. Like, I didn't get that because I don't look like my parents, I don't right.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

So, yeah, yeah, but I feel like being adopted, like for me, because I found out later on in life. I was that's wrong. Yeah, that's wrong. So, but I'm like at the end of the day, like me and my mom have such a good bond that I'm just like, yeah, you know, like you're my mom, you know? Yeah, so it's kind of just like I don't know how like I'm not really like since I don't really know my parents like that, so I'm just kind of like, I don't really feel any type of way. Like my mom's my mom, that's all I've known. Yeah, so it's kind of just like I don't know how I would feel if I met them, but I'm also like it's easier when I go to the hospital than like, do you have any conditions? I'm like, I don't know, I'm adopted.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

So there you go.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Does your family have any condition? I don't know, I'm adopted. So we could just cut that off right there and there, yeah, right. So yeah, so it's kind of like I don't know. I'm just like, my mom's my mom, and we grew that bond. Just like when you grow a bond with your IPs and through surrogacy, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:32

You know, new, but it's also like okay, you know, and they become family, a lot of them become a family in a way. So you're bound forever, really. You had a baby together. I mean, that's a big deal, yeah. Big deal, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

And it's always crazy when people just want to be like, throw that out there, but it's like, have you adopted? Have you gone through the process? Right, you know?

SPEAKER_02 9:57

So people always have their little two cents they want to add in there when they don't experience and adoption isn't inexpensive either.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Adoption costs a lot of money, yeah. But there's grants for adoption.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Now that I know there's some grants for surrogacy too, but there's you can and you get a tax write-off for adoption if you adopt a lot of people like, or maybe not a lot of people, don't people like foster and then adopt? Because then that's like the you don't I hate uh using the word free. I don't know the correct terminology for that, but like you know, it doesn't cost them money, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

To do uh to adopt that way. Correct. Right. That's correct.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

They take those if those fosters go back and get reunited, but then you're you're going through all that loss, too. That's a whole nother gamble.

Open Adoption And Reunion Reality

SPEAKER_04 10:44

My stepkids are in reunion with their birth mom. I mean, yeah, and I mean, my older stepdaughter like it was it was supposed to be an open adoption and it was closed because their birth mom was there was stuff between her and the adoptive mother. There was uneasy feelings. Okay, because you know, her children were taken by the county, have four younger siblings, they have an older sibling by their birth mom. Those three were taken by the county that she was a foster kid in, and you know, she was able to move counties and keep the rest of her kids, so there was definitely hurt feelings because she was trying to get her kids back, and wow, you know, so my husband and his ex-wife adopted and then divorced, and you know, I came in as stepmom, and my oldest stepdaughter said, I want to see if my my birth mom wants to talk to me. And I said, Okay, let's let's reach out. I know how to find her, I know her name. We reached out after I had my second Sarah baby. We reached out, and her and I are really good friends. I mean, we talk all the time, and the kids have gone and spent the night at her house, and we have holidays together, and you know that's so sweet. Yeah, it's really nice, and and it's not they don't call her mom because she didn't raise them, sure, but they she is their their mom, and yeah, you know, the f the older two spent, you know, they lived with her for a certain amount of time before they were taken. And the youngest one, he has two full-blooded siblings that are with her.

SPEAKER_05 12:31

Whoa!

SPEAKER_04 12:32

So it's different through foster care. Obviously, you know, it's not exactly a uh infant adoption, you know. It's you know, whether they were very young, they were babies, toddlers, but it's the whole thing, it is messy, you know. Adoption is definitely messier than surrogacy.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Yeah, agree. Well, it's it's more purposeful. I shouldn't say purposeful, that's the wrong word. It's more um you're all going in for the same reason. Right. You're all going in to have a baby, like the surrogacy. Yeah, adoption is you can get these children numerous. Taken away and taken away and adopting a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

The the parents still I wouldn't say still have like legal rights, but they still have legal rights until they're terminated, right? Right, until like there's like a reason for them to be like you can no longer, no matter what, you can't have your kid at all, type of thing. And then it's just like some adoptions, it's like the parent gives the child up, but then the the parents like, oh, I really want my kid back, yada yada yada, so they can they can try and fight, yeah, they can fight it and be like, well, it's my biological kids, so it's like can't really do nothing about it.

SPEAKER_04 13:52

Like when, like, let's say you meet with a woman and she's pregnant with a child and she thinks she wants to give a child up for adoption. She has time after the birth takes place to change her mind. Yeah, right. Surrogates, we don't have that choice. No, there is no choice there because they're not our babies. Crack.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah, you know, and the end result is children, yes, but the way to go about it is a little different, yeah, and a little, I think it's cleaner. We use the word messy already. I think it's a little cleaner the surrogate way. I just not clean not that not that children shouldn't be adopted. There's a ton of them out there that need homes. I swear, if I could take 12 of them, I would. But they need homes and they need families, and it's not their fault that they ended up in these circumstances.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

There also seems to be more pro maybe I'm saying this wrong, but more protection when it comes to surrogacy, like the the whole like, hey, you can and can't do this, like on both sides, and like every you also like know everybody at the beginning of the whole process. So, you know, there's that there's that whole matching phase, and then there's legalities behind it, and you know, consequences if things aren't followed.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

So that's yeah, it's like you said, it seems cleaner a little also with adoption, it's more of like like with surrogacy, it's more of like adult adult kind of, you know, but with adoption, it's more of adult and kid. I mean, I hate to put it like that, but it's like adult and kid trying to match.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Okay, there's already little little little souls and little people involved.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

I mean, surrogacy trying to create that from yeah, but the the with adoption, the soul's already here, uh-huh. So it's kind of like, and especially with adoption, if the kids are older, and that's why so many kids are in foster that you know they end up just aging out because people don't want that because they kind of already have like their personalities or what have you, or this or that, and that's why some people are like, Well, I don't I want I want a newborn or I want like an infant, you know, to adopt then them, right? Yeah, it's to be instead of some, you know, a child that person, yeah, yeah, or a child that's going through the system and getting rejected, and you know, so yeah, it's sad to think like that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

No, yeah, but it's true. I mean, yeah, it's that's crazy, Rachel. Can I ask, were you adopted as a baby?

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Um, I actually do not know. I think I was though. Okay, so because my mom doesn't like to talk about it, so I just don't mind it, you know. Yeah, so I'm just like, I don't you're my mom. Like, yeah, and she didn't want to tell me because she was like, I would she was, and this is another thing. She was afraid that I would want to go be with my birth mother. Oh so, and it's just like mom, you're my mom. Like, even if I ever if I ever somehow met my birth mother, like it wouldn't, I'd be like, it would just be like a stranger, yeah, you know. So it's like we don't really talk about it. And then she also adopted my sister. Oh wow, and yeah, but me and my sister are not they're not like blood related, blood related, yeah. So, and back then it was harder to adopt as a single parent, yes. So that just shows a lot from my mom's character as being be able to adopt two kids and being a single parent, you know. So that's crazy, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

That's so cool though. I didn't know that about you. I've known you for years.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

I know talking about it, yeah. I'm like, I don't really like talk about it much unless someone really like asks, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Yeah, well, it's not like you're gonna sit down at the dinner table and be like, hey, so like about me. Like it's just you know, it's it's not like that servicey pool of like, so this is a baby, but it's not my baby. Like it's a different type of topic for sure. But I will say it's interesting because I'm hearing all of you guys talk in the thing that's going in my head that like I'm like I'm like thinking like a person that's like on the outside because you're all saying things that kind of relate to, oh, okay, well, the baby of adoption is from another woman, and they're biologically related to that woman. And then this woman is giving up that baby or whatever the circumstances are to then go live with another family potentially, which I can see slightly the comparison that outsiders make when it's like, oh, you're giving up the baby to go live with another family.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

So the component that's not there is the biological part.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Right, right. Exactly. And so, but it but it's just interesting. No, yeah, that is because it's like like uh Amanda, you said your one of your daughters like wants to go in. She wanted to go and like find out who her biological mom was, like her who her roots were.

SPEAKER_04 19:03

When I first when I first met the kids, like they knew they were adopted, they're all biracial. My husband is white, I'm white, my ex-husband was black, so my three children are biracial, and his ex-wife is white, so they knew they were adopted. Okay, makes sense because they're not the same race as their adopted parents. Yeah, because she remembered her birth mom. Like they they it was an open adoption in the beginning. And there was be when she was just being fostered, when they were just being fostered, there was a plan for reunification originally.

SPEAKER_05 19:37

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 19:38

Um so when I first met her, and she was all of seven years old. Um, she said, like when her and when when me and Ray got together, she said, Well, now I have like three moms. I have my mom, Crystal, that gave birth to me, Mary and my adoptive mom, and you and my stepmom. And I was just like, Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Okay, that's how she compartmentalized it.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

That's how she that's yeah, it's a lot to process. Wow, okay. That's another thing, too. Adoption is open and closed, right? You know, so like my good, Rachel.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

You were closed, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Yeah, my mom never met my biological mom. So yeah. Oh, that's yeah, so it was yeah, so it's very, it's very interesting. It's like every surrogacy journey is different, every adoption is different.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

You're around my age. Well, I I know you're it's a little older than me, but we're we're around we're in the same decade. I'm an old fart. No, you're not. We're in the same age. We're in the same decade, so I'm like, that's crazy, because that's I didn't imagine that to be the case in like you know, like the what, like the nineties or like the eighties or whatever. Like, yeah, that isn't it. Seems like it would have been a little bit more, hey, how are you? This this is me, and this is you know, nice to meet you. So that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Don't know the circumstances behind it. So maybe it just was yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Now I'm wondering what it's like now.

Legal Differences And Real Risk

SPEAKER_04 21:09

I mean, just like our contracts, yep, we we can have plans with the intended parents to like keep in contact, but there's nothing legally binding, right? Same with adoption, a large majority of adoptions after the first five years or before the first five years, sometimes between birth and five years, they close. Even if they're open, that's even if they're open, and that's initiated usually by the adoptive parents. They close it because of the pull of the child between adoptive family and birth family. So if there is an open adoption, there's often that there's just generally because there's nothing legally binding to keep it open.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 21:52

Not in the US, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Interesting. And can you imagine on a little five year old? He's oh, that's hard. That's tough.

SPEAKER_04 21:59

I know. I mean, and that's why it's best I mean, uh, best practices are generally like to have the child know all the information, seem like a surrogate baby. You know, a lot of the dads, when you're working with a gay couple, they have an explanation of surrogacy and egg donor and all the things for the baby. That way, you know, they don't get to school and go, Well, how do I explain who I am? Yeah, where I came from, because I have two dads, but somewhere along the line there had to be a woman. That right, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Right. So right now, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Yeah. And for Lord. I know Rachel. I know. But okay, so for Rachel and for mom, a question for you guys. So, because you know, we also often hear like the oh, that child, a surrogacy child is being ripped away from the mother, they're gonna have problems in life, and blah blah blah, and you know, just all of those wrong stigmas. You two are adopted. So, do you guys feel any parallels of like of being like a surrogate child in the sense that like you were ripped from someone else and you're missing a piece of you?

SPEAKER_00 23:14

I'm not missing a piece of nothing. Like, I'm really like it's so funny because I was like when I first started my TikToks, that's what someone told me. Oh, you you need to go to therapy because you have issues, da-da-da-da-da. Just because you're adopted, and da da da. And I'm just like, thank you for telling me how I feel, you know, coming from a stranger that I have no idea who the hell you are. Yeah you know, you're just like my birth mother. I don't know who the hell you are. Like it doesn't like like if I bumped into my mot my you know, birth mother on the street, birth mother on the street, I would not know, you know, that's crazy, and so it's just like and I also don't feel like I know I I don't feel like a surrogate, like I don't feel that connection because my mom's my mom, right? Right, you know, so we've grown that bond. So maybe that's why it just feels different to me. I don't know. Your heart feels full.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Yeah, yeah. You belong to it.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

You belong to it. Yeah, no, uh uh so back in the 60s when you know it was you went to the Catholic Social Society and you asked for a baby and you were able to get two. I'm number three. My parents got three. So I I firmly believe my brother and sister are a gift, but I firmly believe I was so wanted, so wanted by these parents that took me because my mother fought like hell to get me. I had the blonde, uh, the black hair, the blue eyes, just like them. Because their first two kids did not look like them. I did. And they fought like hell. And my dad was like, no, two's too much. Oh no. And she's like, Come on, Joe. And so I I come along. So, in the back of my mind, did I want to find the birth parent? Yeah, 100%. Was I going to disrupt their lives? No. Because who am I? You gave me up for a reason. Who would I be to then disrupt you if you haven't told your family or if you're involved in a different relationship and your kids don't know about me, who am I? No. But I also said if anybody came knocking on my door, I would be receptive. And that's what happened. They came knocking on my door and had a relationship with her for 17 years and feel very blessed that I did because the puzzle piece it fit. And for me, that was necessary. I know for a lot of adoptees it might not be, but for me, I didn't know I needed it until I got it. And it was weird. It was weird.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

I don't think I'm ever gonna get it. It's been like 30-something years in counting. What'd you say?

SPEAKER_01 25:52

So it's been a yeah, no, and I was 32 before they came and found before I got a knock on that door. I was like, what? Yeah, I I had kind of resorted that to like that's not happening. Well, they got a couple more months, I'm gonna be 33, you may Rachel. I think we all go through these journeys in our lives and we're we kind of end up where we're supposed to end up, and and I think that's where I was supposed to end up. Um it wasn't easy, it wasn't easy. There was turmoil between my mom who raised me and myself because of it.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Because of being adopted?

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Because I reunion because I brought her in. Oh, because you brought her jealousy. Right. And we'll just fast forward the story. The both moms met and I remembered as clear as day, they thanked each other. The one thanked the one for raising her, and the one thanked the one for having her for her to raise. And I like stood there and I felt out of body experience. I'm like, did you did you what? Huh? And in my brain, I'm like, and I'm like, okay, I let me go cry now. And I don't, yeah. So to me, that was the culminating in the and the birth mom died like four years later. So um, so it was great that they finally met, but that was unheard of back then, way unheard of. That should have never happened. But they're strong women they wanted to meet.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

So it worked out. But yeah, no, I don't feel like it meant to be.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Yeah, that's the way I look at it. That's the way I look at it too. Because I never wanted to disrupt anybody ever. Um, but as as a because I really didn't feel like I belonged. Yeah, 100%. Didn't feel like I belonged in my family because I look so different. I look so different. I mean, Kennedy looks like me, so she, you know, now now the line's going, right? Like, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Um, but yeah, no, I don't I don't know. It just I adoption and surrogacy, yeah, they have parallels, but they're so different.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

They're so different. Yeah. You know, speaking from being a surrogate mom, like having baby and being an adult, that's one of the reasons I got into surrogacy, is because I was adopted.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

And the biological connection was huge to me. Huge. And I wanted to help people get that if they could. That was one of my main reasons for going in. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah. I think also maybe finding out when you're adopted kind of changes your perspective on things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

I was I was seven.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

See, and I was 17. So it was like crazy.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

You were like an adult, basically, right now.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Yeah. So it's like a huge difference.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

What's that mean? Oh, can I go play? Bye. Yeah, I had no idea what it was. No idea.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Right. For me, I'm like, wait.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Right. You're my mom. History. You're my mom. Right. Right. Right.

unknown 28:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

So I'm like, um that would be a huge shocker.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Would would you have preferred not to know, Rachel? I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Or preferred to find out younger.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Actually, I don't think I would want to find out younger now that I think about it. Oh, yeah. I think I'm liking the age that I was at because I was already like, my mom's my mom. This is my life. My life is established. I'm doing all the things. Me and my mom got a great relationship. Like, and if I think I found out younger, I don't know. I think I would have maybe questioned questioned more. Yeah. And then I think it would kind of put a possibly it could have put a wedge in between me and my mom.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

But I I wouldn't, I don't know. Right. Right. Yeah. You know? And I think I'm and like what listen to Ellen talk. I was thinking to myself, I'm like, maybe I was put in my mom's life to be her friend because she's a single mom. And it's just me and her.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

You're a gift. You're a gift. You know? She wanted you. Can you? Oh my god, she wanted you. She's a single mother and took two of you. Are you kidding? You guys were wanted and still are, obviously, Rachel. That's yeah, that's the way I look at adoption. And I look at surrogacy that way too, though, you guys, because they want these babies so badly. They want families. So yeah, there's a lot of parallels, but the feeling of it, especially one who's done both, it's just a little different. Just a little more.

Foster Care Adoption And The Hard Parts

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Yeah. I think the biggest difference as like a surrogate is the fact that we're not giving up anything. Like, and I think that's the hard concept for people to grasp is like, no, this isn't this isn't look on paper. Technically, for some states or countries, it looks like an adoption, but it's really not an adoption. Like, that's just the legalities of it all, because they haven't figured out how to like deal with it after however many decades this has been. But like we all go into it knowing not our baby. And I I do know that there's as we keep saying it's not our baby, the thing that sucks in my head, I'm like, okay, but we've talked to traditional surrogates, and I know that like, you know, like those those people are out there too, but they're also like just my egg, it's not my baby. So we all still still have the same mentality where it's like we're not giving up our children, and I think that that's the hard part where people can't divide adoption and surrogacy, because that's no I mean traditional surrogacy is adoption.

SPEAKER_04 31:20

I mean it is, it is that's their baby, it is like I mean, I know they're going into a contract with that planned, but I could never, yeah, you know, and I like I could be odd to me, but people do it. Yeah, I I could never do that, yeah. And I you know, and I look at adoption very differently. I I'm not an adoptive parent, I'm a step parent, you know, and I I do look at adoption a little bit differently. I definitely think surrogacy is it's different than how my stepkids became adopted children. I you know, Rachel, obviously I don't know your story at all. And I just know that there's there wasn't enough there there's not enough supports in place, I think, for a for families of origin for birth families. Because sometimes it's you know, two thousand dollars could have made all the difference to have them keep their baby. You know what I mean? It's it's sometimes a very small financial it's it's short-term financial problems are why people give up children because they can't take care of that baby. Oh, that breaks down. And sometimes it's I don't want to be a parent, but I don't want to abort. Okay, that's good too. That's a good reason to, you know, right. But I just think um, in in my opinion, we could definitely do more as a society, as we've talked about before, just basic health care. Um, you know, to make it so that if somebody is pregnant, adoption isn't the only way they think to go if they don't want to keep it simply based on they think I don't financially have the means to take care of my baby, right? You know, which that's not the only reason why people do. I'm just saying it is a big part of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Yeah, yeah, and that's why another thing society is just always like, Well, you know how babies are made, so if you don't want one, can't be doing the doing to get you in that situation, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

You have to think half you said that that right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

So, I mean, but there is also if you're still trying to do the do there's protection and all the things that you can do to prevent that from happening.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Yes, but I think it's resources on that too.

SPEAKER_04 33:42

They don't some people just don't know where to go to get family planning resources, especially you know, with the current administration, it's getting worse and worse. So I just feel like you know, as there's a market for babies, yeah, you know, and how people manage to grow their families.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 34:03

You know, I think surrogacy is often the the cleanest, the the least messy, the least moving parts as as far as my experience, and just because my stepkids are were through foster care and seeing it from that side and seeing maybe they don't put the best, you know, it's like we go through psychological background checks and all that kind of stuff and figure out are we worthy to carry these babies and are we in a place financially where we can carry these babies, and is our husband on board, or our boyfriends on board, or whoever our significant others are on board, and do we have the supports to be a surrogate? I don't necessarily think the same work is always put in to hey, are these people good enough to foster? Do you know what I mean? Like just because they have an extra bedroom, you know. True, it's well, you always hear stories. You you there's always yeah, no, and there's stories about surrogacy, there's scary stories about adoption, there's scary stories all around. But just I have personal feelings about it, just based on my experience with my stepkids and seeing, you know, what that adoption story looks like. To me, it's it was an ideal. It it was an ideal, and I'm not saying their birth mom would have been, you know, at the best place of her life at that time, but with supports, could she have kept all of her children in a county where she wasn't a foster kid? Yeah, absolutely, because she has four after them that are in her care. So it's a different story altogether, you know. Obviously, it's not the same as Rachel's story, but every adoption story is different, right? And it's not the same as Ellen's story, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:48

Right, yeah, we didn't know our parents at all. Those kids knew, yeah. They knew that's that to me is heart-wrenching.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Yeah, yeah, just crazy. But it is, it's I mean, I grew up knowing that my grandma, who is my best friend in the whole entire world, wasn't biologically related to me, but you literally could not tell me that. Like, I would be like, nah, that's my girl, like go away. Like, I it didn't even affect me. But so the only thing that I knew about adoption when I was growing up was that blood doesn't make you family.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

It it's no the hell they do not, because it'd be your blood that'd be backstabbing you in the back. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, and you know, and it was interesting. I got to meet my mom's because my mom has two biological brothers that she met, and then I had biological cousins, and I have cousins that kind of look like me. So like it was cool, but like I don't my cousins are my my aunt who lives around the corner from me, that her daughters like that's that's my cousins or my mom's best. Biologically related to growing up, yeah. Yeah, like I'm so it's and that's kind of to me, that's another parallel of surrogacy, is like like Rachel, you're an auntie, and aren't you are you are you still are you still Mama Amanda? I'm still mommy.

unknown 37:10

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

I can't stop that unfortunately. Okay. But you know, like there's there's families that come from surrogacy, and we are not blood to these children. Like, and my mom's, you know, uh I mean that she's Ellen now, but she was, you know, Mama Ellen or California mom or whatever. And so I've I'm just very lucky that I grew up in such a very diverse non-tunneled like household of like, nope, it's whatever. Here you go. And you know, and that helped me, you know, with with my son and being a single mom and the fact that his biological dad is adopted, and I know nothing about his biological dad's side at all. So I got a DNA test and I'm like, what ethnicity are you? Now we gotta find out what are your, you know, what are you? I think that's the scary part for adoption versus surrogacy, is you don't know your your medical history. Right. And oftentimes for no, I feel like no, you have to know your medical history for surrogacy, because even the egg donors or the sperm donors, they have to give like that whole background. So yeah, that's my that's my view. That's just so box.

Identity And Medical History Gaps

SPEAKER_00 38:26

And that's also you are a part of the adoption, then Kennedy, at least the world, since you said yeah, you know, your son, you're scared about what kind of conditions he could have, or this or that when he gets older.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

So he ever want to reach out, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Exactly. Yeah, right, exactly. And there's you know, there's conversations and there's things, and it's it's very interesting. It's very different. You know, my story is complete. There was no adoption directly within our life at the moment currently, but you know, it's just it's a very, it's very interesting. It's and it's very, very, very, very, very different than surrogacy.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Well, you just know how to do a podcast when that time comes, if it comes.

SPEAKER_04 39:13

Oh, yeah. Couple years there's so many different ways that families look, and even saying things about adoption, it's like adoption isn't wrong or right, or surrogacy isn't wrong or right. Step parent adoptions aren't wrong or right. Like, I didn't know my dad growing up. We reunified when I was in my 30s. Oh wow, you know, so I wasn't adopted by a step parent, but I didn't know my dad. Right. And like my kids, like their dad's not involved, and my youngest two call my husband dad. Like, you know, parent families look different no matter what. Sarrogacy is just one kind of facet, yes, you know, and there's some kids that don't even live with a mom and a dad, they live with a grandma and grandpa, or there's grandparent adoptions or kinship adoptions. Yeah, and you think about like the sisters that give birth to a baby for their gay brother, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 40:09

Like there's so many different so many, there's so many different scenarios, things that happen. Embryo adoption, yeah, embryo adoption, right?

SPEAKER_04 40:19

That's right. Wow. You think about all these different ways, and it's like, I just think like as long as you're do doing your best to do right by the child in the situation, yes, you know, that's the most important thing. So, like Rachel had a good upbringing and a healthy relationship with her mom, and she's in a good place with her mom, and that's awesome, wonderful, a hundred percent. Yep, not all adoptees have that, but not all surrogate babies might have a good relationship with their biological parents, you know. Like every I mean, goodness, my mother, let me just tell you. But you know, everybody has different relationships with families, and I just think, like, in the end, like adoption and surrogacy is not apples to apples.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

It's not, and I don't think that it's ever appropriate or fair to like, because we talked about this earlier, like, give your opinion, give your statement, like, oh, why didn't they just adopt? I mean, I've been asked that, like, oh, why didn't they adopt or things like that? And it's like, well, first of all, it's none of your business. Right. Like it's none of your business. And while I understand, while I understand, I'm sorry to put it out there like this, we don't ever talk politics, but while I understand the conservative view of the fact of there are so many kids already here that need homes, I can understand that and I can look at you and appreciate that you have that view. But I'm gonna come over here and because I grew up a certain way, and if somebody wants to be a parent to a little person who is biologically related to them, they have every right to do so. So and let me help. Yeah. So that's why I just I never understood that statement. Why don't they just adopt? Well, it's not any cheaper, and it's not any less heartbreaking, like it's there's still so much heartache and heartbreak and and gambles on both ends. Like you just don't. It's just it's it's all up in the air until you have that baby in your arms, it's all up in the air, and just and like you said, Amanda, even with adoption, sometimes it's still up in the air when you have that baby in your arms because the mom has however long until after to be like, Oh, I would like the child back, which I can't imagine that. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 42:40

Well, my my first intended parents, they were in a a failed adoption where the birth mom changed her mind.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_04 42:48

Um, you know, and then they moved to Saragacy. And as a gay couple of different ethnicities and different faiths, finding a parent that even wanted to match with them was already a difficult situation. So to find a match and her change her mind, which is her right, that's her baby. Yeah, um, you know, it was heartbreaking for them, and they moved on to surrogacy. Like that's what they did that next to triangle their family, you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

Um, yeah, I feel like I feel like too, like adoptees, like they're on pins and needles until like that four-year mark. At least with surrogacy, IPs are only hopefully in that time frame until birth.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

And then kind of like, well, because like with my IPs, I had to wait six weeks to sign over my official rights because Britain's like, well, she might want the baby back. So we have to wait six weeks. I had to wait the same right. And I'm like, wow, as cute as little Theo is, I don't want him, you know. So I feel like when it comes to adoption, that's kind of one of the scary things, too. A prolonged stressor, if you will, of you know, oh my gosh, they could just come and take this baby anytime, type of thing. So much anxiety. Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, I think my birth mother had a closed adoption. She closed it on her end. So that's why my mom never met my mom. Oh and my mom just picked me up from the hospital.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

There you go. Oh wow. So you must have been brand new.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Yeah. So I think I was new. So oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

I was four weeks in an orphanage.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

I didn't know you were four weeks. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Four weeks. They wouldn't let you go until you were four weeks. Yeah, I don't know why they could care less now. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

They could care less milk.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

That was a Catholic Catholic Social Services.

unknown 44:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Oh, is it a Catholic thing, maybe?

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Probably.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

That would be something.

Birth Certificates And The SAVE Act

SPEAKER_01 45:05

I even had consent from my birth mom to get my original birth certificate. We both signed notarized statements, gave it to the Catholic Social Services, and asked, Can okay, she agrees. I agree. Hello. No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Whoa, why? I would love to see what my birth weight is. I would love to see, yeah, I would love to see it. I have a teeny teeny little one that's amended with my parents' names on it and then what they named me. That's it.

SPEAKER_04 45:29

No way. And my birthday. That's it. Which is another reason why the Save Act is a really bad idea for adoptees. It's putting it out there. I know we're not political. I am though.

SPEAKER_03 45:41

Well, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_04 45:42

I didn't say we weren't political, Amanda. I just said we've been really the Save Act is they were trying to pass a thing where uh if you had changed your name at any point, you would have to prove all of your name changes accordingly to prove your identity. And that specifically is for married women, that's a trouble. Yeah. Um, and adoptees, it's a major issue because a lot of adoptees don't have access to their original birth records.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Nope, you sure don't.

SPEAKER_04 46:10

So your amended birth certificate doesn't count for the Safe Act.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

How do you know if it's amended? Now I'm about to go look at mine.

SPEAKER_02 46:17

It says it. It is my son's is amended because I was dumb.

SPEAKER_04 46:22

I mean, it's it's gonna say it's your legal birth certificate, but you do have an original birth certificate out there.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

How do you know the difference? I can send you, I can, I can show you what it looks like. I got I got a question now. I want to know.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

I do know my birth, I do know the name she gave me, my birth name. Right. What's your name? Do you want to remember now? Veronica Jean O'Malley. What the fudge?

SPEAKER_05 46:47

Vermelically, you would have been a whole different personality.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

Veronica. She wanted to call me Nikki. I'm like, then why don't you just name me Nikki? Yep. From Pennsylvania. Very iris. I was born in Pennsylvania. Oh, really? You were born in Pennsylvania? I was Abington. Uh-huh. Abington. Is that near Rosalind? Uh Abington. It was in Montgomery County. That's Montgomery County. Yeah. Oh wow. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 47:20

Not as well in Phoenixville. I think that's Montgomery County as well.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Oh my goodness. But I would love to see my birth certificate with that name on it. Would love to that's weird. They won't give it to you. Nope. We'll not. And now she's gone, so can't even try to get that.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

So it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

But that's great.

SPEAKER_04 47:36

So we're glad the same app is not passing. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

Yeah. No, yeah. Super thanks because I don't follow the news anymore. I'm not allowed to watch it because I get angry. So I'm not having been able to watch it for like months.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

I watch the news, but I keep it like to my little town, and nothing happened here. So nothing. Oh my god. I'm kind of glad. I'm kind of glad. Don't get me wrong. Yeah. Because sorry, the surrounding cities around me be crazy.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

I feel that crazy. That's so funny. Oh my gosh. Those are kind of like all parallels and and what and cons. Like I don't know. Like it's just, you know, what I feel like we talked a lot a lot about how it is different, but also how we can see that where people might like cross them.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

Right. And why they ask that question.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Yeah. Maybe just ask it nicer. Don't ask the intended parents. No, I'm like serious, but I want to know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

Just don't ask. Why do you ask that? Right. Why does adoption the first thing that comes to your head? Why not say don't have kids?

SPEAKER_01 48:48

I think because they're uncomfortable with surrogacy. I I really they just so many people still don't know what it is. And I know more than they don't understand it. They just don't understand the process. It's yeah, we're not selling baby. Yeah. No, there's more.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

It's just because honestly, the fact that people can say, oh, surrogacy, you sell babies and adoption you don't. I your mother, the motherfucker. I have heard, I have heard someone say to their adoptive child, I paid$30,000 for you. Don't even drop your mouth, mom. You already know what this story is.

SPEAKER_04 49:27

But like infant adoption is is a lot like that. Whereas like fostering to adopt is different.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

But it's crazy because it's like, how are you people going to say that surrogacy is selling a baby, but not also tack that on to parts of adoption? Like if you really want to say that, like, why don't you just adopt it? Hello, you still pay. Like, I don't and it's not none of it is selling a child, none of that is trafficking children, none of none of that. It's these are very different things. So it's just well interesting how we want to perceive things.

SPEAKER_05 50:05

All right.

SPEAKER_04 50:06

I do want to say, like, the last show that I was uh interviewing that I was a part of podcast, rather. Hello. Um was about the attachment part of it. And you know, I I did wonder, and this is probably because I got too attached to my last Sarah baby, but I did like when I was holding her and towards the end before she went home, and I was thinking, like, you know, I'm the first voice she knew, and the first heartbeat, and the first, and I was having my little moment of ridiculousness because of being her nanny. Well, you know, the fact that I was her nanny and her and nur and not nurture and caretaker and pumping for her and all of the things, yeah, it felt very different. It felt very different, and so I was worried, is she gonna be okay without me? You know, and she's fine, she's fine, she's absolutely fine. Um, you know, because I see her, you know, almost every day. I'm getting updates, and you know, about once a week we're on FaceTime. She doesn't probably know it's me, but nonetheless, but you know, I I did have that, oh my gosh, you know what I mean? That that moment in my heart where I was like, you know, the the dads are sleeping or doing whatever they're doing, and I'm in the living room taking care of her, and I'm just like, oh my god, will she ever be able to live without me? And yeah, she's perfectly fine gaining weight, eating, doing all the fun baby things.

Selling Babies Myth And Media Narratives

SPEAKER_01 51:43

And yeah, I mean because you've got an attachment to her because I attached, yeah, right. Exactly. Typically, surrogacy, we don't, we're gone within within a couple of weeks at the longest. It's maybe three or four if they have to wait for the passports. But and we're not nannies, we usually don't get to do the nanny thing. You you lucked, you I would have loved to do that, but again, then I would have had to deal with uh oh god, wait a minute. Right, how can they live without me? Yeah, mm-hmm. Because we're mothers, we're nurturers. It's just for mom already moms, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Yeah, but I feel like for me, I think it was the joy of watching them, yeah, be parents. Yeah, like I'll hold the baby for a little bit. We're gonna take the baby back. Yeah, you know, I want to see how you, you know, you handle things. And I'm like, and I know the the baby's fine. I'm like, he's thriving, he's good, he got his older brother with him, like they are just like the cutest little things in the world. Like, even like, and that's another thing I was gonna say is like tying that to kind of surrogacy and adoption is like adoption, you have to do a lot of background checks, yeah, and all of the things, and then like intended parents, not so much, you know what I'm saying? And I think maybe that's also another thing, too. Except for my eyepiece, they actually had someone come to the house after baby was here, so they have to get they had their little checkup and everything too. So I was just like, Oh, I don't think my first IPs had to do that, so that was very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

So they're international background checks, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

So, but it's like I think I don't know, and just all the bad stories that you hear with like surrogacy, and there's like a certain someone out there that's like you know, did surrogacy, but also is you know child, you know, yeah, right, right, right, right. So I think that's also why people get scared, but I'm just also because I mean it's very rare that that happens, right? At least I don't know, at least maybe not, I don't know for sure, but I haven't heard any stories about it.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

It's so it's just like it's rare, but it's when it happens, it happens big, and yeah, everybody's like, what?

SPEAKER_02 53:58

Because it's well when anything happens in surrogate, it has to be sensational on it, it does, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

Yeah, it's just let's amplify all the negative things and because there's so many people that still look down upon all of this, and that's they just need to get their heads out of their universe. It's fine. Facts, we're not asking them to be a part of it, it's fine. It's yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:19

But I'm also wondering why IPs don't get a little psyche vow.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Do they not? I hear some do. I thought they had to. When we did it, when I did it, there's some don't.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

When I did it, they didn't. I think it depends on the agency because we've talked to a couple agencies and majority of them, they do do the psyche valve. Um, I think it's becoming more common, especially now. But I don't think when I but I don't think when I first did it, I don't think my first couple, they were they did a psychoval. I I don't think so. I I don't know. But it yeah, but I I think it's becoming more of the common.

SPEAKER_01 54:58

And I think it should. If we have to go through them, what I mean it's not to say that they're not gonna be, you know, it's not to evaluate you as a parent.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

I because when we talked to somebody, I was like, why why do they get the eval? And it was like, well, it's not to evaluate them as a parent. No one's here to say you can or cannot be a parent or you can or cannot, you know, carry a child, like as a surrogate. It's more so like, are you mentally in the state where us as an agency are gonna be able to, you know, you know, walk walk alongside you and and support you, and you know, we're all on like the same track. That's more so what the evals are about, rather than like, how are you as a human being? We're not like they're like we're not judging you off of your personality, it's like where are you mentally? So that's my understanding of it.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

That's my neck what next question is like when people are like you should just they should just adopt, but I'm like, okay, you don't want me to be a surrogate and supposedly give my baby away, but you want them to go take some stranger's baby and adopt the baby, yeah, yeah, and then also like, are you guys getting like adoption and foster care mixed up? Like, right, I know some people might get them confused on the two, you know.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

And there are a lot of children that go through foster care that are luckily adopted, yes, yeah, and I think that is how maybe some who decide to be foster parents want to start to grow their families, they they do it that way, they go through the fire, they want to help children, and then they get attached to these children, they become available for adoption. They're like, this just makes sense. This is how we're gonna do it. Um does that work for everybody? Probably not, but I I'll give it all the props to the foster parents, like that. That that is hard, hard work.

SPEAKER_05 56:43

Hard, hard work.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

Because these kids get back, they reunify, and then you've you've developed that you're with them for like a year, six months, three weeks, what have you. That you've you you've developed that bond. Like you nannyed that baby for how many weeks? And you develop that bond. Like it's hard, it's it's hard, but ultimately in the end, I think every child deserves a forever home. Every child, and I I hope they all get them. I really do, and and I know that's not gonna be the reality, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:14

And what fosters, it's like it's certain rules I have to follow, like they have to have their own room, like you know, and not very many people have space. And if people do want to foster, they might already have kids and this and that. So it's just like when you actually if people actually took the time to go down the rabbit hole of adoption and fostering, like then they'll see like crud, you gotta like go through a lot.

Attachment Worries After Birth

SPEAKER_02 57:39

Yeah, it's not as easy as like signing a piece of paper being like, I want this kind of child. There we go. Like, no, it's not picking out a puppy, and I think a lot of times people just like kind of just go straight and narrow, and they're like, That's it, no, adoption's super easy because it's so talked about. I think it's been well.

SPEAKER_04 57:56

I think it's also more romanticized. There's so many movies about it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

You know, or celebrities just going to other countries and picking up a baby and bringing it home.

SPEAKER_04 58:06

Like, it ain't that easy. Like it's definitely like the the narrative around adoption is a lot different than the narrative around surrogacy. Sarrogacy is seen as you know, oh well, you know, the Kardashians didn't want to be pregnancy, so they decided to be to do surrogacy or whatever. Right. And again, I think the reality is real people that are like, you know, average earners, maybe a little on the higher end of average earners, use surrogacy to build families. You know, maybe they don't have a womb because they're a gay couple, maybe there's infertility. It's not just I need to keep my body right for whatever reason. Right. Or, you know, right. I I I saw something on uh a surrogate page, um, and it was saying about would anybody here do a social surrogacy, which I think is more of a you know, like a celebrity thing, like where you're carrying because it's not convenient for them to be pregnant for their career or whatever. Wow. Okay, and I I you know, teach their own, you know, I don't necessarily want to assign a non-disclosure agreement.

SPEAKER_02 59:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:17

But like, you know, I think everybody determines what's right for them, but I think a lot of us are in it for people that can't have children on their own.

SPEAKER_03 59:26

Right.

SPEAKER_04 59:27

You know, to try and fill that void where our womb is a good one. Not all wombs are available, not everybody has a womb. So, you know, I think that I think that's why adoption is way adoption gets way more acclaimed because it's like, oh, these nice people gave the sad child a home. That's not even how it is. Right, right. You know, it's the narrative that's created this like little orphan Annie and Warbucks. It's you know, this whole beautiful thing. And whereas Sarrogacy is like, oh, they're paying somebody to carry their baby, and it's like, ooh, gross. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's definitely like there's not this narrat, this beautiful narrative around it. Yes, in this community, we we know this beautiful narrative, but outside of the community, it's not as like well known. There's not all these movies, there's not all this media hype, there's not all these lobbying groups, it's just right.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:17

They should totally redo Annie as like surrogacy. Like, how fun would that be?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:24

I don't know that that story works for someone. I think it does.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

Well, they could work off of it, but you know the warbecks would have to be like a gay couple, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

And and all the orphans would have to be these little babies in diapers, you know, playing in and you know, their little rattles. It could be it could be very entertaining. Yeah, on that game.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

But I also I think like when it comes to like surrogates, we choose to be surrogates, we do, and that goes same with adopt thieves. Like, yeah, you know, you have to want to do it, you know what I mean? You can't be like you can't be like forced to do it, you know what I mean? Because like a lot of people think surrogates are forced to do it, which we are not, yeah, right. So it's like you shouldn't a force someone to adopt kids, right? If it's just not in their heart, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

Right, it becomes more of an obligation than a want, and it yeah, right desire.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

And a lot of and a lot of people when you ask them, they're like, I could never be a surrogate, and that's what nobody's asking to be, right? Right exactly, exactly. And it's not for everybody, just like adopting is not for everybody, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:36

You know, like we just did a podcast about egg donation. Uh and we flat out said could never in our life donate our eggs, but I will carry somebody else's in a heartbeat. But you know, like, and it's just and it's just so funny. But like and you know, some people can donate their eggs, but don't want to carry a baby for somebody else. So it's just everybody's heart is in this community, especially, and and in the adoption community, most of the time, I I can't speak for everybody because I'm not in that community, but like if you're gonna do the right thing, you're doing the right thing. Like if your heart's in the right place, you're doing the right thing. Like that's all that is, and so it's just it's just as simple as that. If you have a good heart, you have a good heart, and you're trying to do whatever you can, trying to give back, trying to help, trying to do whatever it is, and that's in both communities, clearly.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:30

I'm a person of the mind that, and I could just be when I was raised, but our stories are written, and we're just navigating through them, and we might take some offshoots and we might do some other things that enhance that story that was already written. But we're all in it. We it's it's to me, my cards were dull. And what I choose to do with whatever comes my way or whatever I decide to pursue, I look at it as for the better good. And doing surrogacy for me was for the better good. And I just thought that was part of my story. It was always going to be part of my story. Even 23 years ago when I started this, it had to be part of my story. And I knew it. And I just think that's the calling. The the the surrogates just there's an inner need. There is. I I and it's different in everybody. I don't think any of us has the same inner need and desire to help, but it's help. Everybody wants to help. Um I think we're just living out our stories. And the more we can help people, the better. Whether that's if we're adopting, if we're if we're if we're being surrogates, if we're donating our eggs, which I could never do, but uh more power to them. Yeah, but I don't know. Yeah, there's enough out there for everybody. Hopefully, hopefully people get the children they want. Like seriously.

Screening Standards And Who Gets Checked

SPEAKER_02 1:03:51

If you want to be a parent, if you want to have a parent, comfortably you can be a parent. That's the yeah, right. I think that's an adoption and surrogacy community.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:58

And however, that's what it is. Go about doing getting there, yeah. Right, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:03

And don't get me wrong, I feel I want to say my mom was getting paid for me and my my sister really by the government, by the government.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:16

That's what I'm saying. Like foster to adopt situation because I don't really know there's yeah, I mean, there's there's subsidies behind um fostering to adopt, correct? Right. And I'm like, I'm not about to ask. It's a touch of child support, it's like child support from the government, which again, which again, this is why that type of adoption is a little bit different because people are like, why not give those resources to the birth families if it could help the birth families keep the children? Right, you know, there's a lot of viewpoints there that are valid, yeah, but again, like I think, and each adoptee is gonna have their own lived experience, and like it's not like my like it's not my place or anybody else's place or even other adopted's places to force a narrative onto people.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:07

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:07

Because, like, you know, Ellen's like, we're all just living our story and what has happened, how we deal with those things, it's up to us, and that's beautiful and very California mom of you. Super and some people do sit in those things, and again, I'm not adopted by a stepparent or otherwise, but being in reunion with my dad later on, yeah, you know, as an adult, and seeing somebody that actually looked like me because I don't look like my mom. Um, I did have a lot of feelings about my siblings that were raised with him versus the fact that I was with my mom. And we don't have the same parents, it's we have the same dad. Yeah, okay. But you know, there is a sense of identity, there's a sense of feelings, there's a sense of hurt and regret. There's a lot of mixed feelings that come with families when they are in reunion. Or are separated or happen differently. And and that can be good, bad, or indifferent. Is reunion great? Yes. Does reunion hurt? Yes. Also, yes. Like you know, there's a lot of interesting things.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

The question for you is would would you do you think you would have felt different if you met your dad younger?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:21

Yes. Well, yes. I mean, well, I don't know if I would have felt different because I didn't have the lived life of you know, exactly, right. You know, I I don't know. But I would have liked to have the opportunity to have known my dad as a child. Our it's funny because our relationship is we met as an I was an adult, my dad was an adult, you know, and so your relationship is not child parent in the same way as if he had been a part of raising me. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:54

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:55

And he's like, you know, my relationship with you is so much different than your brothers and sister, because I didn't have to go through all the hard parts with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

Right. Oh, but you should have been there for the hard part. Right. It's messy.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:10

It's messy with my mother, so you know, exactly. But like, but yeah, there's part of me that's even angry about that. Like, why didn't you fight harder, Dad? You know, like, and I think that's similar to a lot of adoptees. Like, there's feelings with some of resentment towards birth parents and all the things, you know. But then there's also the, but these are the parents that raise me, and I love them and have this relationship with them too. I I think I think we're all capable in our hearts of having love for way more people, you know, totally for having room for the messiness of life. Yes, you know, and you know, just like you know, my older kids are so over Sarrogacy, not like they're over, but they're like you're a part of it. We don't need to be all involved and whatever. And Nomi is like all the babies, she loves being on all the video calls, and you know, the oldest one is almost six, and the youngest one is of course, you know, four months or whatever. And Nomi, you know, she she loves it, she loves everything about it, and she still considers those a part of her family. And I think that's the thing. It's like you have room for so many more people than just who's biologically related to you. It's nice if you're able to be with people that are biologically related to you, but let's face it, our significant others aren't biologically related to us. Let's hope. Um, exactly. You know, but like you you build your most important relationships with people that aren't biologically related to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:48

Yeah, I know so true. Yep, that's that's the true fact I've heard all year. It's very true. Oh, that's kind of funny. Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:00

Agreed. Yep. We just need to we need need to spread that out to the rest of the world. And I I I think I think there's a big part of the world that does do that, and then there's those closed-minded. Just oh, just we can all be one, big, big, happy. Like we can, we can, it's possible. Like, Jesus Lord. I just this division is unfortunate.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:21

There's more energy to be uh you know what than it does to just be like a nice person, like from from age 25 Ellen, yeah. Uh-huh. Well, agree. But it's funny. So my husband is is a is a black man, and it's so funny to me because I I pointed out to him, I'm like, you are the only person I know that when you pass another black man, you guys don't say anything, but you nod heads. And he's like, we just say what's up. I'm like, white people don't do that. Like, and he's like, No, we don't have married. Oh, do you? But I'm like, we don't know. Yeah, I say hi to everybody. I'm like, hi. Yeah, and he's like, no, we we're we're just nice to each other. Like, we know how it is out here, we gotta be nice. I'm like, gee, if the whole world could just be like, hey, how are you? How you doing? Like, how freaking nice. Every time we go anywhere, he makes a it's not even like makes a friend, he's just it people talk to him. I'm like, Well, that's lovely. Respectful. Yeah, it's just and it's just it's just nice. I'm like, wow, if only we could all just be like, hey, you've got a good aura. Yeah, start doing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:20

Hey, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:21

Yep, yeah, just so yeah, or even just smile now. Yeah, it takes more muscles to frown than to smile.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:28

Good morning, good afternoon. Yes, yes.

Family Beyond Biology And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_02 1:10:31

I do also think it plays a part on where you live, because again, my husband's from the Midwest, and he's like, You Californians are so rude. I'm like, Yeah, I guess I wouldn't know any difference. I mean, aren't we supposed to yell at each other on the road? Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know what we're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:47

I'm allowed to scream and yell all I want in that car when I get out.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:50

That's exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

So not screaming and yelling at them in my car.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:55

Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Oh gosh.

unknown 1:11:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:01

Did we have all the questions? Did we hit them all?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:03

Yeah, we hit we hit, I think we hit more than all.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:06

Okay, fabulous.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:07

So thank you, ladies, so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:09

No, it was so great to see your beautiful faces. Rachel, I haven't seen you in like a century. And how interesting the four of us in the ways that we're attached to adoption. No joke. It's different, it's very different. 100%. It's so interesting to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:26

And all of us are lovely people. Like, oh thanks, Mom. You're so lovely to you. I was gonna exclude myself from that, but I'm gonna keep myself. It doesn't define you. No, it just makes us even more fun. Like, I don't know, whatever. I yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:48

More stories you can pull out to like talk to people, I think, are always just more fun. But that's just me.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:54

And more open-minded. Like you're raising three Amanda's story is just insane to me. I just like like insanely good. Like it's like what? Yeah, amazing. It really is because you're a stepmom to adoptive children who have a she's got three moms. Like how to navigate that with us, however old she is, like that's that's oh, she's 17 now, so she knows everything now. Okay, okay, okay. But having to have dad navigate all that, that's all yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:28

When she was when she was seven and hearing that, I was just like, okay, girl, I mean, we only just started dating, but okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:35

But that's a lot, and and all the processes that have to go through their heads. So I just yeah, kudos to you, because that's a lot, that's a lot. But yeah, wow, amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:45

Hey, but at least you guys could have you guys kind of navigated together since it was kind of like your first kind of like right adoption situation type thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:55

Yeah, so crazy. That's kind of nice.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:58

It was definitely uh, it was definitely a learning curve because it's different than just being a stepmom because there's that other level, that other complexity.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:10

And being a stepmom's no, I've never been one, but I there it's not rainbow.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:16

It's not a cakewalk, anyway. It's not no step parent.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:22

So yeah, your story struck me. Yeah, okay. Sorry, I'll be quiet now.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:26

Okay, Rachel, I have a question. Yeah, okay. So obviously, my kids and my stepkids are biracial, so they'd have to be like pretty dense not to know they're like, Oh, what's that? What's going on here? Um, but like obviously, like your adoptive mom, like your mom, she's black too. Yes, right. Okay, so it's not like you would have been like, yeah, no, it's not like where people are like, well, why?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:51

Like when when white people adopt black people, black kids, they're like, Well, why did you adopt a black child? You know, um, but no, yeah. So, and then it's like I didn't think anything of it of it because people were like, Oh, you look like your mom.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:08

How cute, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:10

So yeah, I'm like, Yeah, I do, of course I do. I know like duh, you know, my mom. So yeah, so it's kind of just like, but then like you know, finding out at 17, you're like, hmm. I had my moments, but then I was just kind of like, okay. I mean, like, it didn't really change anything about me. So I was pretty much like cool with it. Like I'm still who I am. Yeah, like it's like it's just that she's you know, my adopted mom, but she's my mom, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:45

Can I mean like Rachel? Can I ask you a question? You don't have to answer it. I can cut it out. Probably what I was gonna ask. Well, I'm just how when you were growing up, where did you think your dad was?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:57

Girl, I don't even know. I just thought single mom was normal. I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:05

If she made it normal, like, yep, this is how it's supposed to be. More power to her, more power to her.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:11

Yeah, because I was just like, okay, that's my mom. And then I think YouTube was a single older, right? Of course, as I was getting older, I was just like, okay, you know, these people have dads, but I'm just like, I just gotta meet my mom and I, my sister, that's it. There's the three of us, that's all we need, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:29

Wow, she was more than enough for a very secure home, is what that seems like, very safe and secure something like for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:37

Yeah, well, so I was just like, wow, but I do think about it because I'm like, I was born in Oakland, so I'm like, Oh, where would I have been? Yeah, Amanda, if you don't know, Oakland is in California and it's kind of like the ghetto. Okay, you need a little rough, little rule, remember.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:58

Isn't Ryan Kugler from there and uh Michael B. Jordan? My husband talks about Oakland all the time because he's like obsessed with Michael B. Jordan and all that, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:06

I'm just like, I'm just like, I always wonder, I'm like, where would I have been? Right. Yeah, it's a little rougher out there.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:12

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:13

So but interesting, yeah. I'm just like, um I got that all the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:18

Right, isn't that kind of cool though? Well, maybe not cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:21

Well, because Ellen would have been Veronica O'Malley in Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:24

And what is a medicine on a pole smoking 26? Oh, I can guarantee it. We would not be here, that's for sure. No, they wouldn't, they wouldn't. Oh man. Goodness. Isn't that crazy though, Rachel? If your mom didn't adopt you, you wouldn't have the babies that you have, like you wouldn't have your kids.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:44

Yeah, I wouldn't have had the life I had probably it's so crazy. Could have probably been a hookah. Like you always you think about that stuff, like, okay, where where would my life have gone? Yeah, like the what ifs, you know? So I look at it as and I think about it as if like my mom gave me up for a reason. My you know, my birth mom gave me up for a reason, so it's like mine too. Why should I care? Like, should I care? I don't really know her.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:16

Yeah, she was trying to do it. Unless she was a crackhead, yeah. That's all. Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:25

She's just being real honest right now. I don't know if we're gonna leave that in there, we cut it out, but it don't matter, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's different reasons why, yeah, yeah, you know, kids get put up for adoption. That's true. I do not know my reason because she closed all of her stuff. So, like, my mom's like, I don't know nothing about her. Like, she could have been, I mean, she could have been a young teenager that got knocked up, and right, you know, right, like you have no idea. I'll never, I'll never know, you know. So it's like I can't I can't hate her, yeah. Sure, you don't know because I don't I don't know her, yeah. But thanks for giving me the life I have, right? Yeah, right. Right, yeah, and that's that. And I don't know if she chose my mom either.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:14

So okay, or if like the agency or somebody did something, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:18

Yeah, right. So that's why I'm just like, I'm here, I'm living my best life. I love my mom, me and my mom have a great relationship. Yeah, we're like besties, you know. So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:28

It's like that's okay to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:30

It would be different if like I did like have like a medical condition or something like that, you know. But I like it didn't really affect my life. So I'm like, right, I'm all right, I'm good, I'm groovy. So that's why when people tell me, like, oh, you need to have you need therapy because you're been you were adopted and you got you got trauma and dah dah dah da da like we all the only trauma in my life we all need therapy at this point, you know what I'm saying? The only trauma in my life right now is you commenting on my video.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:00

That's what that is, yes it is, and that's when we hit block because we don't need that energy.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:07

Yeah, that's like that energy. So like I've I just like I don't understand people, but never will.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:14

Story of our lives. Let's yep, oh my gosh. Well, I know this is like a super long one, but thank you, ladies. This was like so crazy informative and so fun. And seeing your beautiful faces is always so fun. I know, and it's late in Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:28

It's late, yeah. It's like nine, it's nine twelve. Holy girl, your background is throwing me off.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:33

I'm like, you still it's still early.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:36

No, this is this is a green screen thing because my behind me is my bedroom, which looks a mess.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:42

Oh my gosh. Oh well, thank you for spending like an hour and a half with us. We appreciate it.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:51

Well, I love you all. Love you too, ladies. Have a great evening. All right, bye guys. Bye guys, bye. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:02

Very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:03

That's crazy. Yeah, you know, sometimes when we when we have topics, I like get worried that we're not gonna have like enough to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:12

But these scenarios were all so different. I know you're not just that your mother's adopted, you're tied to adoption in another realm.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:20

In another way that I really didn't even think about because yeah, it didn't affect you, but I'm t that will affect you later on in his life. Well, yeah, I I I mean, I've already thought of reasons how or whatever, but like medically it scares me because I'm like, oh gosh, like because again, like you knowing you know the only reason we were able to get colonoscopies early in life is because your biological mom had colon cancer, and we wouldn't have known that if we didn't know her. So it's like, oh, that's a huge puzzle piece. Thank goodness we know. Right. Like that's that's scary.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:58

Right. I have a smoke detector that needs a new battery.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:03

That's with me and dad took it off.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:06

So wrap it up so it doesn't keep beeping.

Closing Thanks And How To Reach Us

SPEAKER_02 1:21:09

Sure, you're good, you're good. Um yeah, but no, that it was just it was just really cool to hear everyone's It was very interesting. Okay, well it was long. So um thank you, ever thank you, ladies. Um, if anybody has any questions or stories they would like to share, please feel free to reach out to us on Instagram at StopPeriod Sit Period Surrogate or at our email at StopPeriodsat Period Surgate at gmail.com. And this has been another episode of Stop Sit Surrogate with Candy and Ellen. Bye everybody. Before we wrap up, a huge thank you to our sponsor, U.S. Surrogacy. Their support helps us continue to share real stories, educate our community, and connect families through the incredible journey of surrogacy. Thanks so much for tuning in to Stopsit Surrogate, where every story matters and every journey is worth sharing. We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:02

If you enjoyed this podcast, be sure to give us a like and subscribe. Also, check out the link to our YouTube channel in the description. And be sure to also check out our children's book, My Mom Has Superpowers, sold on Amazon and Etsy.