How A Retired Surrogate Built A Safer Agency

#surrogacy 
#ivf 
#surrogate

Heart to Hands’ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hearttohandssurrogacy?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

She signed a surrogacy contract the night before embryo transfer even after a brand-new attorney told her not to and the story only gets more real from there. We’re joined by Adrienne Black, a retired surrogate with decades in family building, founder and CEO of Heart to Hands Surrogacy, and acting president of SEEDS (Society for Ethics in Egg Donation and Surrogacy). Adrienne takes us back to the early days when resources were scarce, agencies were hit-or-miss, and “you don’t know what you don’t know” could put a surrogate and her family at risk. 

We talk through the big shifts in IVF and embryology, including how genetic testing and single embryo transfer have changed outcomes and expectations. Adrienne also shares what she’s learned about intended parents’ vulnerability, the power imbalance that can show up in surrogacy, and why the best journeys happen when the surrogate and intended parents are supported as one unit. If you’re researching a surrogacy agency, becoming a surrogate, or starting as an intended parent, this conversation gives you concrete questions to ask about contracts, screening timelines, education, and who is really protecting your interests. 

Then we zoom out to the industry-level view: private equity, changing legislation, and why surrogacy can’t “fly under the radar” anymore. Adrienne explains what SEEDS does, how ethical standards are evolving across agencies and escrow, and why professionalism matters for every child’s origin story. Links we mention include Heart to Hands Surrogacy, Adrienne’s YouTube channel Surrogacy Queen, and our sponsor US Surrogacy LLC at us-surrogacy.com. 

Subscribe, share this with someone considering surrogacy, and leave a review with the question you want us to tackle next. 

Learn more:
• Heart to Hands Surrogacy: https://hearttohandssurrogacy.com/
• SEEDS: https://seedsethics.org/

https://stopsitsurrogate.com

Transcript

Welcome And Sponsor Spotlight

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome. We are a mother-daughter podcast about all things surrogacy. Together, we have brought eight beautiful babies into this world. And we would like to share through education and knowledge about surrogacy with those who want to educate themselves on the topic. This is Stop Fit Surrogate. This episode is sponsored by U.S. Surrogacy LLC. If you've ever dreamed of helping grow a family or are hoping to grow your own, U.S. Surrogacy LLC is here to guide you every step of the way. They are a dedicated surrogacy agency committed to supporting intended parents and surrogates through a compassionate, ethical, and well-supported journey. U.S. Surrogacy LLC works with amazing women who want to make a life-changing difference by becoming a surrogate while also helping intended parents experience the incredible gift of parenthood. Their team focuses on transparency, strong communication, and personalized support so that everyone involved feels confident, cared for, and informed throughout the entire process. If you've ever considered becoming a surrogate, or if you're an intended parent exploring your options, US Surrogacy LLC is ready to help you take that next step. To learn more about their programs and how you can get started, visit us-surrogacy.com. That's us-surrogacy.com. And now let's get into today's episode.

Meet Adrien Black And Her Roles

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Hey everybody, welcome back to StopSit Surrogate. Today we have a wonderful guest joining us. Thank you so much for taking the time. We're going to let you go ahead and introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Go ahead. Great. Thank you. My name is Adrien Black. I am the founder CEO of Heart to Hands Surrogacy. I'm also a retired surrogate. I am currently the Seeds president, and SEEDS is the Society for Ethics in Egg Donation and Surrogacy. I am a mom and a wife, and I'm really glad to be here.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Oh my gosh. I didn't know you were in charge of all those things. Yeah, I didn't either.

unknown 2:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

It's a busy life. You are busy. You are busy. Um, okay. Well, I mean, the fun question that we always ask everyone is how do you, you know, how how'd you get involved in surrogacy to begin with?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah.

A Midwife’s Calling To Surrogacy

SPEAKER_00 2:25

So um my history with surrogacy is almost 30 years in now. And so my original career was as a midwife. And I was at a midwifery conference, and this beautiful, very pregnant woman stood up and she shared her surrogacy story. And there was this very kind of, you know, when the clouds open and the sun rays come down, and like this visceral response in my body of like, I will do that. It really literally felt like a little piece of my heart clicked into place. And so that was my first introduction. I had never heard of it, I had never thought about it. It was completely alien to me at that time. Um, it was not the right time in my life to be a surrogate. My career was young, my children were young, it just didn't fit. So it took a number of years before it was the right time for me to really start thinking. And that was probably 2000, 2001.

unknown 3:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

When I started really looking into it. And at that time, there weren't a lot of resources out there. And so I actually started by looking for attorneys and asking, like, what is this process? How do you do this? And then went to a mental health care provider and said, I'm thinking about this thing. Can we talk about it? How would that impact my family? What does that look like? And only after I had done all of that research did I even learn that there were agencies out there and places that facilitated it. Um, that is not how I did my own surrogacy. I actually found all of my own matches through the classified ads on surrogate mothers online, which is an old school BB board. It still exists, but nobody uses it. Um, so that is that's kind of how I came into surrogacy.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Oh, I know you're gonna say stuff. Hold on, I know you're gonna say stuff, mom. This is fascinating. My mom and you were surrogates around the same time. So she's probably gonna lead this whole podcast. I can see her brain going crazy right now.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Were you on Smo too? No, no, I was I never knew it existed. So, so wait, okay, I'm gonna calm down. Um what a leap of faith for you to go find your own matches. What I never even in my wildest dreams would have thought of that. And also for you to go and talk to professionals before you even knew like there was an agency. That to me is so forward-thinking and so like you wanted to know that I am so impressed. And like you've said 18 words. Like, I can't, like, honestly, no, you said more than 18 words, but like I I wanted to when I did this, I wanted to do this for me. This was important for me to help another family. It was a little bit of a selfish thing, and I don't I've I've said this before, so it's nothing new. You were concerned on how it was gonna affect your family, and you needed to wait because your career was still in its early stages and you had tiny children, and like wow, that's like a whole nother podcast. But anyway, we started kind of the same time, and I started with agencies. I Googled agencies, and there were like three. There weren't there were hardly any. And I wanted to help um gay men, so that's that's I was looking for those types of agencies, and I did find one, but okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

I did not um, I am a very autonomous person, okay. And so when I finally learned that there were agencies, uh frankly, I didn't enjoy the initial outreaches. And I don't know if you remember, but like some of my early ones were like British Surrogacy Center and what a total mess they were, and um, I didn't want somebody telling me how to have a relationship with the people that I was going to carry for. And so for me, um, it just made more sense to do it independently.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Gosh. Did you use that same lawyer that you you reached out to in the beginning to help you facilitate this or no?

SPEAKER_00 6:39

I'd that's just I spoke to a few attorneys, but interestingly, I did. He and I, um, he's local to me. He and I uh have a very long-standing relationship. He was my attorney through all of my surrogacies. I actually fired him during one of them because of the way negotiations were going. And then ultimately he asked me to come and work for him as his legal assistant. And I spent five years as his legal assistant um before opening my own agency.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Golly. So that is impressive. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Oh my gosh, we could do like 16 different podcasts with you.

unknown 7:14

We totally could.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Yeah, we totally did. I did not expect all this is why I told you before. Like, we don't, we don't, we tend not to do like a bunch of research because this is a genuine reaction over here.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Um, okay, wow. Let me ask one more. Were you were you when you went and looked for for matches, let's say your first match, were you terrified? Or were you like, this is a process, it's gonna work, I'm gonna find the right people.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Because I mean, I probably should have been terrified, but I wasn't. Okay. Wow. I had done a lot of research, and I felt very confident about going to the decision. I look back on it now, and the I was thinking about this this morning, and part of the reason that I feel so strongly about the advocacy component that we do within my agency is because of what I didn't know. And I was so lucky things worked out for me in a way they shouldn't have.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

And the risks that I put myself in because I didn't know, and because the industry was still so new, yeah. The luck that I have propelled me to want to um really create a space that was safe for surrogates and intended parents, but I didn't also bring the bad feelings that come from when something goes sideways. I was so lucky. All of mine have been really lovely experiences, but I know that that was luck in many cases.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

And I have to say, just from speaking to you for these 10 minutes, it's you too. It's you.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

It's all of it. I mean, like the bottom line is luck does play a factor. It does. It does. You know, it has to be acknowledged that I took risks and shouldn't have.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Okay, fair. And it and good for you.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Yeah. You know, and so instead of having somebody else be in that position, my goal was to take like all of the good things I experienced, identify what worked, and then how do we carry that through without also all of the risk that doesn't involve?

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Ellen, I'm gonna ask a question. No, I promise we're not gonna be on this for forever. We'll move on to other things. But no, I I am curious because my I mean, the reason I got into surrogacy is my mom was a surrogate three times. And so, I mean, and so as she was sharing her stories over these past few years, you know, she would say that she kind of didn't really have much say back then and like who she got to match with and kind of like everything like that. I'm curious though, you went a different route. You didn't go with like the typical agency and like you did a lot of research. You were a lot, you were very informed in starting all this. So did you feel like you had a maybe a bit more like control and like and like say in how things were gonna go?

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Uh I think I thought I did from where I sit now. I look at that and go, oh honey, oh that's cute. Um, but at the time, yeah, I did feel like I was in control of a lot of it. And I probably was, you know, but um not to the extent that I really thought I was. You know, there's a naivety, I think, for every new surrogate coming into this. And um, you know, the the reasons I was there, why I chose to be a surrogate, right? All of that was valid and I found good families, but certainly I put myself and my family at risk without even realizing it.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Okay. Wow, wow. Well, I'm glad no harm came to you. Um seriously, that like

Independent Matching And Hidden Risks

SPEAKER_01 10:55

because you know, I could have gone sideways.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Me too. Thank you. Can I ask how? How you put your you and your family at risk?

SPEAKER_00 11:03

I mean, I think this is the experience for a lot of new surrogates, is you just don't know what you don't know. Yeah, it's true. And so by not choosing to work with an agency, which again, I didn't even know in the beginning that they were such a thing. Like I didn't know they existed. Right. And so it wasn't until I joined SMO that I even learned it was a thing. So I'd already done, you know, been researching it for several years before I even knew. Um, so I think the the things I didn't realize were just how important the contract is and what it means and the implications. When you get a 60-page contract or even a 40-page contract, and you don't spend a lot of time with legal terms, it's really hard to fully understand everything that is in there. And also just the naivety of assuming everything will go right.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

And that those things won't really matter in the end. Like I accepted provisions because I didn't want to lose a match. That I think about it now, and I'm just like, it's really good that that particular surrogacy didn't go forward.

SPEAKER_03 12:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Um, you know, for just context, is we got all the that particular match we got all the way up to the embryo transfer. The night before, literally the night before the embryo transfer. I fired my attorney, hired a brand new attorney who said you shouldn't sign this contract. I signed it anyway, the night before transfer, you guys.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Whoa, that's crazy. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

It is crazy. This never should have happened. Never. I didn't listen to counsel. I was very attached to the match.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

The the next counsel that I hired who dropped everything to do that review was like, you shouldn't sign it. I did it anyway. Oh right. Like, how stupid is that? Really, honestly. Stupid.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

I just you're you were so heart. Yeah. Yeah. Heart over logic in that case, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Right, right, right. And that particular match that we got the thaw, maybe three hours later, or the call three hours later, that the embryo did not make the thaw. And so this was pre-testing, and you know, the science was nowhere near as good as it is now. And so, um I mean, there were so many red flags in that match. I look back on that now and I'm like, I don't even know where my brain was at. I never should have gone as far as I did. They're lovely people. I still see them every time I'm in their town. Um, I think their intentions were very good. They had another surrogate, which they never disclosed to me. Um, who was they had a tandem way back then? Uh-huh. Whoa. Okay, so let me kind of start at the beginning of that story. Okay, okay. Um, so this was really the first match that I made.

unknown 13:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

And um, they had an ad in SMO that I answered. We started an email conversation. That's how that would typically go happen. You'd back and forth with questions, etc. Then we progressed to a phone call. Um, we decided we wanted to move forward. I flew to New York for the psychological evaluation, for the medical evaluation at their clinic. Um, I did not actually pass that psych eval. Whoa. Um the mental health care provider told the intended parents and then told me as well that there was no way I was that even-tempered and emotionally balanced. And so I must have been lying on the MMPI. No. Yes. There are good people in this world. Hello. Yeah. Oh my gosh, what a bias. I can't. And uh the intended parents went, What? Okay, that's ridiculous. We're gonna move forward with her anyway. Oh, okay. Yes, okay. Awesome. Um, and so when I went in for the actual medical evaluation, there was a woman who was leaving the building at the same time that my intended mother said, Oh, hold on a moment. Left me in the lobby, went and talked with this woman and walked her out. And what I later found out was that was the heartbeat confirmation appointment.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

For that surrogate.

unknown 15:34

What?

SPEAKER_01 15:35

I'm telling you, they were already in a journey. Oh, that oh, okay. You can look at that a bunch of different ways. All right.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

And it was very unusual, right? Like this was not a common practice. And and quite frankly, the ethics around surrogacy and communication and responsibility at that time were very, very green. There was very little understanding of what was or was not okay. Yeah. Um, this was also one of the earlier cases of an HIV-positive family as well. And so, like, it was all the things wrapped into one match where you're like, maybe you should rethink this. Um but in the end, as I said, the embryo did not make the thaw. Um, they have an adult son. I've met him, I see them when I'm there. Our relationship is very kind. We, you know, we're not BFFs or anything, but we see each other, we have dinner, we enjoy each other's company. Um, they're also they were also quite old comparatively. So, like this had all the red flags. Okay. I ignored every single one of them. Every one of them. Um, and I feel like the universe watched out for me, but they were lovely people. So, you know, maybe it would have been fine. Who knows?

SPEAKER_01 16:50

And do you feel you ignored them? And I think you may have said it earlier, bec those red flags or those little naggings maybe in your brain, because you so wanted to help somebody and you so wanted to do this.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

I liked their family so much.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

And they were so incredibly kind to me every step of the way. And my instinct was this'll all be fine.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Okay. Okay, okay, fair.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Maybe it would have been. Yeah. You know, I don't know. Maybe it totally would have been completely fine if it had happened and I'd had their baby and all of those things. We'll never know. Yeah. Um, but I look at that now and I'm just like, oh, girl.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

You were making some bad choices.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yeah. Like if you had a surrogate in that same position, she probably would be counseled a little bit differently right now, right? Like, wait, there's too many red flags.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

I mean, it never would have happened. There you go. Right. You're right. Like you're right. That that situation would never have come up.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

You're right. You're right. Yeah, you're right. Wow. Very interesting. Yeah. Sorry. I feel like we're harping on like when she's talking about your agency too.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

But I think that's important.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

You know, no, your background to it is all very, very relevant and important because clearly the lessons that you learned or the journeys, you know, that partook, or what have whatever that word is, you know, for you, that's kind of probably how you started the foundation of your own agency. You're like, no, these are the wrongs that I'm gonna that I'm gonna turn to rights and things, things like that. Maybe I'm speaking for surrogates,

From Midwifery To Agency Founder

SPEAKER_02 18:27

yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

It was um just honestly, I never it was not in my mind that I wanted to run an agency. I loved being a midwife, and this was part of this was also a component that propelled me towards surrogacy. Um, I was a home birth midwife, and a lot of the clients that I cared for were um people who didn't go into a pregnancy intentionally. And so they were creating their families where it just kind of happened, and that is lovely. No shade on that in any way, shape, or form. But then I also had a significant LGBT clientele. And for those families, the stark reality of what they had to go through to create their family versus the families who didn't even think about it or intend it. For me, my I felt so called to the families where intentionality was such a core component of what they had to go through. Um, and I I'm certain I was also a foster parent. And so, like all of these things together for me. Family building is really my mission, my core, the essence of what I contribute into the world. And so, like all of those pieces together of what it means to bring children into the world intentionally was the core for me. And so, as a midwife, I loved what I did, but I also didn't love that I was on call 24-7. And it made me put somebody else's family ahead of my own, which as a parent was very difficult for me to look at new parents who often put their midwife on a pedestal and be living a lie, right? I would never tell a family that anything should come between them and their children, and instead, I was constantly choosing somebody else's family over mine. So that felt very difficult for me to reconcile. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

So as I moved through my midwifery career and as I realized through disappointments in surrogacy that that was really my passion, when the attorney offered me a position in his law firm, it was a beautiful transition of moving out of being on call 24-7. Right. Being able to have a very typical desk job and being able to be involved in surrogacy. And it was actually through his law firm that I was exposed to how many agencies actually messed up the surrogacy process. Wow. And that is the thing that I watched. I watched all of the SMO days, the surrogate mothers online, and this strong group of connections and family that we built, many people doing it independently, to working in a law firm where we were regularly working with agencies who just I couldn't believe the lack of care in what they were doing.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

And how often they were the problem. And I looked at that and went, I think I can do it better.

SPEAKER_03 21:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yeah. And so I left the law firm to start Heart to Hands.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

And what year? What year did Heart to Hands start? 2011. Oh my gosh, congrats. Holy cow. And then even in 2011, it was still, I don't say new, new, new, but come on, from 2002 to 2011, we're only talking what, nine years later? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:59

Well, I'm sure you've Wow. It's so crazy. Like, I'm just like over here. Cause like I hear my mom say it all the time. And you know, I'm everybody's so interested in hearing, like, you know, what happened 20, 30 years ago. Cause I mean, she had triplets that are now what, 22, 23? And like we're still in touch with them. So that's cool. And you must have surrogate babies out there that are in their 20s. Like, that is it's so wild. I have surrogate babies that are still like babies. Like they're little. So I'm like, you're gonna be an adult one day. You don't think about that. So it's just it's really cool to see what you've done from 20 plus years ago, and how like where you've ended up today and and will continue to go to, and just how much change you've seen personally within the industry for that whole time. Like it's that's so crazy to me.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Can can I ask what because you do have so much in your history and your personal experiences. What's one or two of the biggest changes you've seen from when you started to now owning your own agency and maybe what the stark contrast is?

IVF Then Vs Now

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Just it can't even be ballparky. Like it's one or two.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Um I one of the things that I love most that I have seen significantly change is surrogates owning what they give.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

And I think that that's really critical because when I came into this, my first base compensation was $18,000. Whoa! 18 And then you can imagine.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Oh wait, I have to ask. How many did they how many did you transfer at one time?

SPEAKER_00 23:45

The largest number of embryos I ever transferred at one time was three.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Oh my god. And imagine if that, oh my gosh, that's so crazy.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Ellen, how many did you transfer when you carried triplets? Four.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Four and three took. And they were afraid they were gonna split. And I'm like, what no? Because it's just like you said in the beginning of this conversation. You signed stuff in that contract and you agreed to it, never thinking you'd be in the position to have to deal with it. We had to deal with a reduction that thankfully never happened. And I was torn apart. But it never happened.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

I think that is another like big, big change is people who are coming into surrogacy right now have literally no concept of the shift in embryology from when we started to now. Yep. Like the idea that genetic testing wasn't even an option when I started. Like my um the first family that I had a successful surrogacy with was actually one of the very first trials on genetic testing when it was called pop testing through um what's his name in Las Vegas? Um it was CERM and it what was his name? Um I don't know, it'll come back to me, but he was like the IVF doctor at the time, and he was running a genetic trial on embryo testing. And so, like when we were transferring those big numbers, yeah, it was literally you put more in to increase the chance you'll get one. And that is not the reality now.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

It's tough to get more than one in now.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

My first transfer, I came home and because my friend took me, I came home, I was like, Mom, they transferred one. She screamed and yelled at me, and she's like, How dare you only let them transfer one? You should have transferred two. And I'm over there, like trying to be like, do what my doctor said and be relaxed and stress-free and like be on the couch. And she's like, It's not gonna take.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

And I'm like, if I could go back, I would have changed that conversation, but I can't go back. So yeah, no, it's true though, because you're only based on your experience, and I've been out of it for a while. And I'm like, What? You don't put gobs and gobs in just to make sure one takes. That's the science. Okay, no, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Not today, because I mean, one embryo transfers knock on wood, they they tend to take more often than not.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

About 80% of our clients have success on first embryo transfer with a single embryo, which is astounding. It's amazing. Uh I carried two sets of twins as well. Yay! And so the first baby that I carried, the first surrogacy baby was a singleton, but we'd put two embryos in.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

The his siblings, we put three embryos in and got two.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Um, the next set of twins. This is another one of those where I can't believe I did this and probably shouldn't have. Um, the second family that I carried for, because the first, so my first surrogacy was not successful.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

The second surrogacy, we did five embryo transfers.

unknown 26:55

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

And were not successful. Um, all but one was a chemical, and they'd actually had three egg donors in this process.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

So I suspect there was probably a male factor that was never identified.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Um, that family ultimately adopted. Um, actually, their story is very heart-wrenching. They adopted a sibling group whose single mother had been diagnosed with terminal cancer.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

And they brought her in and her children in. They cared for her at the end of life, and it was um one of the most beautiful things that I've heard.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Oh my god. That was all that heartache they went through to get to that point because that's what they were supposed to do. I forgot what they were supposed to do.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

The third family that I matched with, I carried a singleton and then twins for that family. The next family lives in Istanbul. I carried twins for them, and I actually flew to Istanbul for the embryo transfer because at that time there was no process to bring embryos. Here's another big change. Right. There was no process to bring embryos out of country into the US. So the only way for us to accomplish this was for me to actually go to them. Did you do five surrogacy? How many did you do? Um, so I did successful surrogacies, two with one family, twins with the next family, and then my last family. I wised up. We put one in, I carried a singleton. So four successful success. Um, and out of that, six babies.

unknown 28:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

But then there were two previous families where we were not successful. Okay. Whoo, you were meds. Oh my god, your poor body. It was so many cycles. Whoa. So many cycles.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

What was your like with the first year that you started surrogacy last year that you had a baby?

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Yeah. You know what? I know I'm supposed to remember all those. Oh no, you're okay. You're not my kids.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

No, you're good. When you kind of started 2008.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Yeah. So the so the oldest Sorrow baby is he'll be 19. Oh, wow. And the youngest is eight.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Okay. Wow. Okay, so it's like 11, 12 years.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yes. Wow. That's a long time.

unknown 29:21

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

That's impressive.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Bless your heart. Jeez.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

And I pumped for every one of them for the shortest amount of time that I pumped was five months. Um, the uh the late the longest was about a year and a half.

unknown 29:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Impressive. Oh my god. Were you can I ask, were you compensated for the pumping?

unknown 29:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

They were not enough. I know, I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah. But um not the not all of the families wanted all of the milk. And so for several of those, I met with families who were local to me who were in need, and then I donated. And those families did not compensate me.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

I got but it was meaningful enough for me to help those families that it was worth on your trajectory of who you are, like all these all these different realms you've been in, and just to make you a I it's amazing to me. I'm really lost for words because it's you're phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Like it's an honor that this many families have invited me to be part of their story. What a way of thinking about that. Oh gosh. So, you know, carrying that in my heart. Like the thing that like I am definitely a surrogate surrogate for sure. But for me, the essence of that is recognizing the vulnerability in which intended parents come into this process. And I think it's one of the things we don't talk enough about. Yeah, is that for an intended parent, it is literally the most vulnerable position they will ever be in in their entire lives. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

And the amount of loss they've gone through to get there, right? It's heart-wrenching. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

And it's not just that. I mean, like there's a big differentiation between same-sex couples and heterosexual couples and experience. Both essentially end up with some sort of trauma to get to the point where they have a child. But for the for the heterosexual families that go through this process, in particular, this story of what it means to be a parent and what it means in our society to be a woman who does not give birth to her own child is such a big thing. And the trauma that's wrapped up in that and the trust that an intended mother gives, but I like I say it like that, but it's not just her that any intended parent gives to another person. It's like it is literally giving your heart away. It is, yeah. And so the respect and trust that they give to the people who participate in their family building, I just truly, it is such an honor that they would allow me to be part of their story in a small way or a big way.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Yeah. That's a beautiful way that you put it. And I can't help but think the way that you just phrased all that, how they're putting their heart to someone else. Is that how you got the name for your agency?

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Um, in a way, this was kind of all also mixed up in my midwifery days, but for the most part, yes. You know, originally my tagline um was let's see if I can pull it back. It was such a long time ago. But it was like um from from my heart to your hands.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Oh, okay, I understand.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

It was in your midwifery. It was all kind of a that transition because okay, I was very granola in my midwifery days. Um, somewhere all the medications I think just got rid of the natural-minded that many cycles. But um, it was very much this sense of like, I grow your baby under my heart, and then I deliver that baby to your hands. And while I don't use that same tagline, that storyline has still carried itself through the agency's identity.

unknown 33:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Wow. No, it's it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

Uh I'd love to find out how names come about and and why. And it it that one means a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

That's but your background is just fascinating. Um, we can move on. Um, you have a beautiful agency who she listens to the podcast, she's been on the podcast, so I'm gonna shout out Mary, Mary Johnson, because she's the one who referred us to you, and I'm so happy she's had a beautiful uh experience with you. I that's all she talks about. Um so I'm just I'm curious on so you said you started this in 20 uh 2011, right?

Building Heart To Hands From Scratch

SPEAKER_02 33:58

It's kind of when it all started. So how how did you go into it? What were the changes that you were immediately like, this is what this is what's gonna make us stand out and be and be kind of different?

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Well, I didn't, to be honest. Um, frankly, I was terrified of starting the agency. Um originally, the attorney that I worked with, we were had talked about opening an agency together. And that felt quite safe because he had this legal framework, he had this expertise, he was one of the founder, you know, founders of the surrogacy part of Quad A. And so like he just had this rich history in our community. Um, it didn't end up working out for us, like it just wasn't what was supposed to happen. And so when I left to open heart to hands, I left the law firm, I left every stability I had. It was this massive leap, and I really didn't know how to do it. Okay, I just knew that was the next thing. Um, and I think a lot of people start their agencies that way, should they? Probably not. No, it is a very complex process. Um, but I was very intentional that the first few years I needed to learn what it meant to run an agency. And so the first few years were very, very small, like two or three matches. Well, I actually just learned what does that mean? What is involved? What damage could I unknowingly do? Because I had like I did have the medical background and I had the surrogacy experience, and then I had this legal component, but I didn't actually know what an agency did because I hadn't gone through an agency. Okay. Well, let me back up. Yeah, I matched through an agency with the first family I care I technically carried for for about 15 minutes. They were useless and we abandoned the agency almost immediately because you on the IPs? You you all just abandoned? Yes, yes. We matched, we mutually got annoyed by the interactions with the agency, and we walked away from the agency.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Good for you. Yes, good for you.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Um, and they did a great job matching us, so I'll just state that. I also found them through the one of the ads on SMO. I didn't apply to the agency, they posted an ad for the intended parents, and I responded to that ad. Okay. So, but I mean, it was like literally so interesting. As quickly as we could get out of it, we did.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Um they didn't come back, and I we won't go down this road, but like bring legal action against you, you know, sue.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Oh, I'm certain the IPs paid all the fees anyway. Like at that time, okay, everything was paid up front still. There was no pay it match, it was all pay at higher, and okay, very different agency structures. Also, the financial commitment to an agency was much smaller than than it is now, just like compensation was much smaller than than it is now. So um, when we walked away, I'm sure they were like, Okay, fine.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Okay, okay, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:15

They got their fee, we moved on, everybody was happy. I don't think there's any ill will.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Um so when I started Heart to Hands, I knew I didn't want to make the same mistakes I was seeing other people make that had such a big impact. And so it took a few years for me to really get it. Um, I hired my first two employees. I didn't know what I was doing. I was paying them under the table. One of them was like, I want to be a real employee. Like it was a steep learning curve. Yeah. Yeah. And um, it just took some time. And I'm eternally grateful to those people who were willing to take a risk on me early on because I look back willing to take a risk on you with anything I think.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Not that you're a big risk taker now, but uh a hundred percent. If I heard any of this, yeah, I would take risks. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Yeah, it took a few years. Those first employees ultimately I was like, I don't know what I'm doing, and I don't know what you're doing, and I let them go and I restructured and figured out like, okay, that that was a great like putting my toe in the pool. Now that I'm gonna dive in, I need to be real, and so um that's what I did.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

You know, hearing that just makes I loved you from the minute you said hello, but it makes it just real, and you're vulnerable just like the rest of the world. Like it's not I don't know, there's something about you. Like you honestly, you're just real and genuine. And if you make a mistake, you make a mistake. If it wasn't the right thing, okay. And if you do good, heck, I'm taking credit for it. So applaud you. I'm sure a lot of people applaud you, but I'm just giving it to you because I'm so impressed. So this is lovely.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

I think there are a lot of people who come into this field the same way I did. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Yeah, I can I can see that.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

I can see it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

And so the idea of everything and they just want to be a part of it. So yeah. And I get it.

SPEAKER_00 39:21

I mean, that's why I was there. I think I had some benefits that other people didn't because of my background and my experience. But when people are thinking about wanting to come into this field, I do want it to be real because it is both the thing I am most proud of, except my own family, but also the thing that I'm just like, I hate this so much.

SPEAKER_03 39:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

And, you know, I think if somebody's going to commit to running an agency, that they need to really understand what it is, because I think it is the most high stress, high stakes emotionally overwhelming thing to do that anybody could ever choose to do. And frankly, I don't know if I would again, if I knew then what I know now.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

I'm curious, you said something with the midwifery that you were on call 24-7 and it just started to invade, you know, time away from your family. Do you find that surrogacy? I'm not saying that you can turn it on and turn it off, but do you find that this impedes because you have an emergency in the middle of the night and somebody's calling? Like that's is it's obviously different, but is it along the same lines or no?

SPEAKER_00 40:37

That was such a different place in my life. Okay. And and from where it is now. My kids were younger, they needed me. I was also a single parent and finding child care as a noble parent. Yeah. Um, so like that was it was a very different place in my life. I got you. Does it invade literally everything? Yes. My whole social life is my career. I mean, that's not true. I have I have great friends outside of my career, but like this is the thing that I am most passionate about. And if anything, my children are all adults. Yeah, we are empty nesters, and so there's nothing to prevent me from just living all the time. My husband is um our COO. So, like, we are the least interesting people out there on a dinner date because this is all we talk about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

I would love to go to dinner with you. This would be fascinating.

unknown 41:38

I think that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Had he did he well, shouldn't say background in surrogacy, but did he have like a different career path prior to you opening this agency and him wanting to come on board?

SPEAKER_00 41:48

He didn't come on board for a lot of years. Um, he had a completely different career. Uh, he was with me through. Well, actually, we have kind of a sweet story. He and I met through social tango. We both dance Argentine tango socially.

unknown 42:06

So fun.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

And so one of our very first meetings was at an event where I was pregnant with twins um for the first family that I carried for. And he and I danced. And um there's something very special about when you have four people in an embrace moving to music together. And so that was his first introduction to surrogacy. It's how we met, and it was, you know, a number of years as our friendship developed before it became romantic, but he ultimately saw me through my next two surrogaces as my partner as well.

SPEAKER_03 42:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Um, he did not join Heart to Hands until 2000. I'm sorry, until 2020. And at that time, I was hit by a drunk

A TBI That Changed Everything

SPEAKER_00 42:57

driver. Oh my gosh! Had um a very significant traumatic brain injury, and so I was not capable of working for almost six full months, and so he was really running the agency during that time. Um, I had trusted employees who were able to kind of manage as well, but that is when he really solidified his role within the agency.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

I am so sorry that you had to go. That's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 43:30

And thank goodness you came out of it. And yeah, well, healthy, it looks like. So yeah. Oh wow, you just keep throwing bombs left and right. Lord, I just I my gosh. Wow. Woo! But how sweet of him to kind of like step up, yeah, and be like, I'm here, I got you. Don't don't worry, don't try like that's gotta also just like relieve some stress for you. From from you to be able to be like, okay, I gotta go heal. I can do that. I can go heal peacefully. Oh she's like, no, I need my hands on everything.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Love it. I mean, it was it was um really hard because at that point I still did everything in, you know, like I still did case management. I like I did everything. We were still very, I mean, we weren't tiny, but we we weren't a big agency by any means. And I was still very invested and involved in everything. Um, but just frankly, I had no choice. I really couldn't function, I couldn't um have a conversation with somebody because of the brain injury, and so it was frustrating and um alienating and lonely, and I was filled with worry, and he was amazing, and I don't have any complaints about the way he managed the processes. I'm sure I stressed the entire time about it.

SPEAKER_03 44:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Um but that point in that honestly, that time was some of the crappiest time in my life ever.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

I can only imagine. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

But he was amazing, and my team was amazing. That's amazing. No, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

That's you sound like you you surround yourself with very well-informed, trustworthy people, anyway. It's like it's you know it's gonna bring you up. Like, yeah, you're in the you're in the good spot.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Yeah, why would you're the trustworthy spot? There you go. Yeah, yep, exactly. That's right. That's right. Don't feel yourself, yeah. Don't surround yourself with people who aren't gonna support you. Darn right. So can't I'm sure you keep stats. Can I ask how many babies have been born through the agency?

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Um, we're not a giant agency. I think we just had our 140th baby.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

Oh, come on, that's a ton. That's so many.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

It's funny. In our industry, you've got like the little tiny agencies, and then you've got the really big agencies, and there's always this like slight pressure around like what's the what's valid as an agency. Oh my god. And I we do between 40 and 50 matches a year. That is the number I like. Yeah, it's manageable, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Yes, yeah, right. Say it loud and say it proud. I think that that's coming from being a surrogate myself. I was with technically, technically three agencies, but really two agencies. Those were the ones that I had babies with, and I I was lost in the shuffle to say the least, or so it felt like it, or I was really a number. Like it really did not, I was I was getting paid for something, so I didn't matter kind of thing. So like it, I was kind of like pushed to the side, and so that's why it's so funny because you're not the first person to say, oh, there's small agencies. Small agencies are usually better people, yeah. And they they have more uh you're gonna take the time to get to know your people, like you said. Like, and I think for me, anyways, that means more than going with the one that's been around for 40, 50 years and like you know, has all these numbers to show for it. Okay, but like what are your reviews?

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Like, no, and I don't want that taken the wrong way. I only ask numbers because I'm I want to applaud you. Like, there are 140 souls here because you helped integrate all that and and help people get to that point. And I'm sure are any of well, yeah, probably some of them are multiples, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

Yes, but I've always been really conservative about that, and we don't match for intense intentional multiples. So I was just gonna say, like, there's 140 families or roughly that weren't like that's huge. I'm very proud that I have been able to be part of that. One of like our mission as an agency is for every single child who's born through surrogacy to come into the world feeling loved. And I don't care whether it's my agency or another person's agency, but for me, that is the purpose because I can never lose sight of the fact that in 20 years, any one of those children could show up on my doorstep and want to know their story. And I have a responsibility to that child to tell them you were created with love. And the part that I was active in your story was a story of love. And here's who loved you. I loved you. And I don't like I truly believe in my heart of hearts that when people come into the world with their very DNA being wanted and loved, that that encodes itself. And I know that's wooy. I can't wooy. It's just, I think it's real. Yeah, and so I think we have a responsibility to those children to be prepared to say that. And if I don't know their family's story, it is harder for me to feel in my heart of hearts that I'm gonna be able to look at that child and say, Yes, yes, like I know who you are in your beginning, your origin story. So for me, I don't ever want to be a giant agency, I don't ever want to be owned by private equity where I have to balance all of those things. Now, the reality is market and expenses and running a business is expensive. And so there's always a component of that. But that's part of what's kind of sexy about it, right? Is like I've got these ethical considerations and I know that I will always choose what's right for the family. But also, like I run a business, I want to make money, I support 14 employees and their families, and like that piece of this is also a really important component of how do I run a good, ethical, solid, safe business in this industry that is so complicated and has the capacity to do great beautiful things or great harm.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Yeah, agreed. Boy, that's a lot. That is a lot to unpack. Yes, that's yeah, but I think you've got your finger on the pulse. I really do.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

I I think I think you should run a master class.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

In my spare time. Right, yeah, in all your spare time. I know it took you a hot second to get to where you're at, but it seems like you're supposed to be there, like you're supposed to be helping all this go through, and you're supposed to have those journeys and those experiences prior to to make you that bet much better of an owner, operator of an agency and a trusted um confidant, a trusted part of the journey, a part of the team that's helping bring these babies into this world who are so loved. That's why we all get into it. Like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

It is.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

It is why we all get into it.

SPEAKER_02 51:05

It is, it is.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Oh my gosh. I say it all the time. If I could be having babies for other people, right now I'd be doing it. But I'm too old.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

No, Ellen.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

It's fine.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

My last one, I was like, oh yeah, I'm done.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

I get harder as you go.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

Don't need to do this again.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

That's so funny. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. How um, I mean, so sometimes I just keep going and going, but but no, so like your but your agency kind of runs like the same as like normal, right? Like it in the sense of surrogate or IPs come to you, they're gonna get their clearances that are needed, they're gonna, you know, they're gonna make their profiles, they're gonna get their matching, they're gonna have a match call. It it's the same steps.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

Yes, and no. Um, there are a few things we do a little bit differently. I mean, all agencies do the same thing, right? Like everybody talks about this. You do a consult with intended parents, they're like, what do you do that's unique? I'm like, we all do the same thing. It's not magic. Love it. But there are when I talk with people about agencies, like there are good and bad agencies, but also there's just personalities. Yeah, yeah. And it's going to be a fit with a specific place, and it's not one size fits all. Right. So for us, when I came into this agency, what I wanted was to create an entity that looked at the entire piece as a match. Because there are agencies that are all surrogate and agencies that are all intended parent. And what I saw from my vantage was this is a unit that needs support. And so that is the foundational concept of how we approach what we do in this process and how we support the different players. So that is one concept that I think is fundamentally different than a lot of agencies is if you if you don't work together cohesively as a unit, you're not going to have a beautiful origin story. And that's what we want. That we want that creation story to be something everybody's very proud of. Yes. So we have to start with it as a unit.

SPEAKER_03 53:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:10

Um, the other piece that was so distressing to me is how little surrogates were respected and how unbalanced this process was. Because so many surrogates are young, because we're in childbearing years. Yep. And so many don't have the full education that intended parents do who have spent years in their professions and developing their careers and living through experience, right? Everybody's like, oh, surrogates don't know anything, or all these like kind of attitudes about how surrogates are naive. Like, yeah, the the power imbalance isn't just about money, although that's sometimes a component, it's also just lived life experience that is hard to balance for. And so what I found and saw was people do so much education with intended parents because intended parents ask. And so instead of really honoring that, we just accept it and dare I say, exploit that component of the surrogate relationship with their agency. And for me, having come from an environment that was all about empowering women as a midwife, right? The shift to not doing that with surrogates was very distressing. And so that was an early component of me where the language that I choose to use through my agency is very much about supporting women making their own decisions. And as a side note, I hate the word empowerment. I'm empowering a surrogate. I'm not empowering a surrogate, she is empowered, just supporting her. I'm just making space for her and being a resource and a tool for her to have the experience and to help another family. So we don't empower. I don't know what the rate balance word is in there for that, but a surrogate doesn't need me to empower her.

SPEAKER_03 55:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

What she does need is access to information. Yes. A hundred percent.

Free Surrogate Education Before Committing

SPEAKER_00 55:29

One of our key components is we spend a lot of time educating surrogates about what this experience is, what the commitments are, what the process looks like. We have, as far as I know, we are the only agency that offers a full education program to surrogates before they commit to anything. Okay, jumping into that. What is it? Yeah.

unknown 55:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:53

What is it? Um originally our first version of this was like, I don't even know if Facebook still does this, but you know, in the Facebook groups, they have like the guides section. Yeah. I don't know if you've seen this. Yeah. So that was our first version of this. It's morphed. We now have um an education platform that we use, and it has almost 40 hours of recorded content for surrogates about everything. Um, I have one for intended parents as well, and they're completely free. Anybody can access them. I just want people to have a resource. Where are they? Are they accessing it? Yeah, where can they? Where can they access it? They're on the school platform. I can send you links of S-K-O-O-L. But the goal is really just to make sure that surrogates have the information that they need to make the decisions that are right for them and their families before they are sucked into and committed to an agency.

SPEAKER_03 56:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

Because most surrogates, the first call they make, they're just looking for information. And then an agency is like, oh my gosh, they look like vultures. Yeah. Yeah. And so from the very beginning, yeah, my intention was always let's slow this down. We are not the fastest match for a surrogate. Um, like our screening process, the average agency screening time is about three weeks. Ours is six to eight. Um, we do more, we educate, we build relationships with our surrogates. There are certainly other agencies that do this too. Yeah. But this is one of the things that is truly different about what we do because I believe that for a surrogate to go into this process well informed, she has to be able to have access to all the information. Not just what somebody wants her to know.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

And sometimes it's hard to know where to get that information. We always ask people, what do you like? Another surrogate, what do you recommend to a surrogate? Yeah, do your research. Okay, do your research, but where are you doing that? Just a Google search? Like you're just getting what's coming, right? So this is phenomenal. Like you can go and get educated on certain topics or all of them if you want to, right? Wow. Wow. And talk about being empowered. Hello.

SPEAKER_02 58:11

Because I will say, being a surrogate, I mean, I'm very, very, very lucky and grateful that I had my mom who was a surrogate. But then again, she also freaked out when I only had one embryo transfer. So there was a lot of differences from when she did it versus when I did it. But overall, she understood it. So there were questions that I brought up because she was like, Why is this not in your contract? You should ask about this or this and that. And so, but there were times where I was very nervous to ask questions. I was very naive. I was, and luckily it worked out a couple times that being naive, but like it also was just like, I'm afraid that they're gonna look at me differently if I ask this uneducated question, or if I ask this something, and then they're gonna be like, oh, well, that's a red flag. And it's like, yeah, I'm not saying that I have whatever or or whatever it is, like, you know, but it's just it that's amazing that that's there for people and that it's free because it's overwhelming. And like you said, and we always say it too, you don't know what you don't know. I mean, that's why we started the podcast four or five years ago, because we were just talking about our journeys because we needed to work through some of our own therapy, you know, and then everybody else kind of just joined on and we're so grateful for it. But we have way more than 40 hours, so that's great. Please go, please go there because that's that's more of a condensed education of like topic, each topic, right? Yeah, exactly. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 59:38

I mean, it's a little drier than your podcast. No, no, it's okay.

unknown 59:43

That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 59:44

So is it you or people on your staff who are doing that, or do you pay our whole team, our whole team has taken different topics. We each share our own origin stories. Um, we talk about our agency, of course. So that one is a mix. The intended parent version is just me. Um, and it's also very dense. And ultimately, though, what I want is for people to walk away saying, I know what I know more. I know better what to expect in this process.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

Yes. That's so important. So important.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

It's so important. Because, like you said, when surrogates call, I don't know how it is for IPs. I'm very biased because I'm a surrogate, but like, you know, when a surrogate does call, like, and I I had a list at my last for my last journey. I was like, I want A B C D E F G. Ken, do you have that? And I got the wishy-washy, like, oh yeah, maybe like this or that. And it's like, all right, I just have questions. Please just answer them. Like, so I I think that that's phenomenal. And you really are there to educate and support. And like, you're not like, hey, we're gonna suck your blood dry until you come here, like, you know, like that's it. Those are the types of agencies that I would look for in an intake call. I'm like, I because you can get that vibe when you talk to them too. Like, are you gonna be after me like a car salesman, or are we gonna like be okay and like talk whenever I need to talk?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

I love that. Wow. We also we also ask agencies, and I'm just gonna throw it in there. Who who sees the profiles first? Do you do you look at a surrogate and you've you've you know gotten all the information you need and you know who your intended parents are, and you're like, let me have let her see this parent's profile, or is it vice versa, or do you have an on do you have an online thing going on?

Matching Without Rejection Spirals

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

Um I do not have an online thing going on. Okay. Um I so first of all, I don't have hard absolutes around very many things. Um, that's part of being a smaller agency, is I get to have that bespoke experience where I'm meeting people where their needs are.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:50

But um I usually show intended parents a surrogate's profile first.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

And the reason for that is first of all, we match very, very well. So it's unusual. About 85% of intended parents choose the first profile that we share with them, and about 99% of surrogates do.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:13

And so we start with the intended parents because they are pickier than most surrogates are. And I used to do it the other way because I was like, surrogates should get to choose first, but then the rejection component is hard. Oh and going to a surrogate and saying, actually, these intended parents passed on your profile when she's already started wishing and dreaming and making connections felt like crud. And so we don't do it that way. We we go the other direction. If a surrogate is like, no, I need to see it first, okay, like that's fine. If you don't need me to protect your heart in that capacity, then I don't need you to tell me that I do, right? Like we'll need to be able to do that. Sure. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

But for the most part, unless somebody specifically, or vice versa, if intended parents don't want to go through rejection, then we'll flip it. But mostly we start with sharing the profile with intended parents.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:09

Okay. Okay. And that's but you tried it the other way and found out that it was right.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

So I had tried within my agency over these 16 years, we have done just about everything that is out there, like all the different payment structures and like all the different things. I've probably worn that coat at one time or another. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

Oh, I the rejection factor. I because you always think everybody's just gonna pick. Oh, yes, of course I'm gonna pick. I'm gonna pick up the rejection factor is huge.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:38

Huge.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

I wouldn't want that as a surrogate, like, oh, they passed on me. Oh no, what's wrong with me? And that's that's whole self-doubt thing, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

Oh, so funny. See, and here I am like, no, I want to see you first. You say no to me. It's okay, on to the next one. Like, but I know, but that's so funny. There's two different, you're absolutely right. There's two different yes, and you've been through this before.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:58

First time surrogates, especially, I think that rejection might be harder. So no, I completely understand what's happening there, and I like it. And you're willing to flip if need be.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:09

Yeah. I mean, it's not my surrogacy, it's yes, my clients, and you know, and for me, clients are surrogates and intended parents equally. And so if somebody needs an adjustment, then we adjust.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:19

That's do you handle international as well as domestic or just

International Intended Parents Then And Now

SPEAKER_01 1:04:23

domestic?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

We absolutely work with international intended parents. Um, all of our surrogates are within the US, of course. But um, yeah, we work with international. Um, prior to 2020, about a third of our clients, our intended parents were Chinese, about a third were European, and about a third were domestic. Um, now, because the Chinese market is essentially gone, it is about half European, half domestic. Although in this year, for all kinds of reasons, we have a much larger number of domestic clients than international.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:59

Okay. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:01

And those we don't even know why that that's a case. Imagine mystery. Oh, come on, mom. Click it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

No, I'm just I just played my ee-by-dummy. I don't know. Whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:13

Oh goodness. Um, oh my gosh. Adrian, this is have we gone? I feel like we could like go on for three more hours, but you have a life. Yeah, and you have a job. So sorry. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:24

Did we hit everything or we hit major stuff? Yeah. Is there something you had like on a list that you're like, I want to talk about this? Like, I want to bring it up. You.

SEEDS Standards And Industry Accountability

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

Yeah. Networking.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

Okay. No, I'm just happy to talk about whatever we want to talk about. I mean, I do want to just, you know, I want to mention that I do think we are at a pivotal point in our industry where we are seeing um a big shift in how culture looks at surrogacy. And we need to also be making a big shift on a professional level to meet that. Because before we always flew under the radar. And what we saw in probably 2020, which is when private equity started to really come into this realm. We were like the last medical component to get hit by private equity. But what we saw is a big shift in how all of this happens. And so what's happening now is that that has finally caught up. And surrogacy is now a common conversation. It is rare to come across somebody who doesn't know anybody that has been involved in surrogacy now, right? Whether it's a neighbor or my neighbor's niece carried for somebody or whatever. But when I started, nobody knew. And so the level of professionalism needs to come up as well because we are now in a position where this is part of our culture in the United States. It is being addressed politically in ways that we never anticipated.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:00

Legislation is changing so rapidly that impacts this even unintentionally. And so we're seeing a lot of things come to light that maybe would not have gotten airtime so many years ago. And so I think it's really important that people recognize that this is a pivotal moment in our field where big shifts are happening and that we have to step up and we have to do better. And this is part of what Seeds does, which is the Society for Ethics and Egg Donation and Surrogacy. As a side note, I credit Seeds for still being here. Several years into my profession, into running an agency, I was lonely. It was just me. I didn't know anybody else that was really doing it. I went to my first seeds conference and it was like, you know, oh my gosh, it's an entire room full of people who have the same passion and want to share and want to connect. And I was really at a point where I'm like, I don't know if I'm gonna keep doing this. And for me, seeds was that thing that kept me here.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:15

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:16

And so now, this many years later, I am the acting president of the organization. And this drive to create an ethical process to protect surrogacy and the families who are created through it is at the core value of seeds. And I think it's really important that people who are starting with their own surrogacy journey, they make that extra step of asking, are you a seeds member? Because of the standards that are required to be part of the membership.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:50

So I was gonna ask something. You do not have to touch on this. I am more than happy to cut it out. I don't want to stick any mud anywhere. Go for it. Um you brought up ethics, you brought up professionalism, you brought up where we're at right now. But there have been a few things that have made the headlines, unfortunately. And I'm just curious because there's been a lot of back and forth on like, oh, they weren't a seeds member, like only go with seeds members, things like that. Because there's been a couple of it's not just, you know, one agency or escrow company or or anything like that, you know, there's been a couple, and I'm curious, is that true?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:32

Were they it were they were they a part of seeds, first of all? Uh I don't actually have permission to talk about specific members, so I won't, but I can talk in generalities because I think this is an important conversation to be had. Yeah. And in an industry and a field where it is so hard to get quality education, being able to talk about how seeds intersex with that, I think is a really valid question to ask.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:02

And I think there are a few misconceptions. Um, first of all, we're a very short-minded industry and prof, you know, professional realm where like what happened 20 years ago is not part of what people are thinking about right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:16

And so seeds has been around for gosh, I should probably know exactly how many years, but I don't. When seeds started, they originally were like, yes, we'll put out some kind of standards for egg donation and a few for surrogacy, but they were not, it was not a concerted process and uh uh here's how we're going to attack this. And what seeds really was in the beginning was an education body and a networking opportunity for professionals in multidisciplinary professionals in the surrogacy and a donation community. And over the years, as we've all matured, that need to create a set of ethical standards became more and more critical. And so the first version of the agency standards took three years for the committee to create. And it only formally was adopted two years ago, I believe. And we just passed our second set of standards, which were escrow standards. And we anticipate that all the additional um sub-genres, like attorneys and insurance and mental health care providers, et cetera, will have those standards complete by this year. But I think what's important to know is that we had an entire membership grow before those standards were ever in place. And then putting those standards were in place, that was the first time that had been done in our field. And so that process of bringing people up to be at that set of expectations, it's a process for everybody. So certainly there will be people who were members before we had standards in place where they will leave the organization because they don't meet those standards, or they will perhaps have to be removed from the organization. And as we learn of bad actors, then seeds will address that. I think what's important for people to know is that there are bad actors in every field. Yes. And the ones that we're talking about right now that are so in the news, those are not people who chose to participate in the professional community. Those are people who were on the fringe and outliers. And if they were Seeds members, that didn't mean that they actually were part of the community in the sense that you know the volunteers are and the people who are coming to our educational events and the conferences and participating, right? There's there will always be people who find a way to exploit a system.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:02

Every every thing in every life.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:16

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:18

It's just making it to the news. There's it's so there, and that's the I mean a lot of heartache that's happening with it, too. It's it's not, yeah. And it's so frustrating because like people like you, not to pat us on the back, but people like us, like we do try to, and there's plenty of other people out there too, but we do try to get the good stories out. We do try to say surrogacy's great. Please look at the 99% of amazing that surrogacy brings. Please don't look at the 1%, but the 1% is always the thing that makes the new sense. Sensationalism. That's infuriating.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:56

It's infuriating. Just kind of straight and narrow. Just keep going.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:02

So, you know, in relation to seeds and people who are may not or may have been members, I think the other thing I would ask is for people to just recognize seeds is a completely voluntary organization. We have one part-time employee, and that's it. And so all of this work that has gone in is really just the heart and dedication and commitment of our membership and people who are showing up, giving their time and energy of their own free will. And so I think sometimes we forget that membership organizations don't always have the capacity that, you know, large organizations with lots of employees do. And so I'm actually really proud of everything that Seeds has accomplished with the heart and the essence of the people who show up every day just to do the work. And I think that says so much more about our field and the professionals in it than those news stories that are so prevalent right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:07

Yes, exactly. No, you you said that beautifully. And thank you for kind of putting some ease because you know, people get people get a little worried. Like, how do I know if I should go here or if I should go there? And then, you know, trust starts to dwindle, I think, in the community not I think people would reach out to us and they would be like, I'm I'm worried about this or that or this or that. And it's like there's so much more good in the community, and unfortunately, like you said, it's just that just that one percent that's really just kind of a couple more bad apple. That's the rotten apple that's just like just sitting there, it's got throw it away. But no, thank you. Um wow, I did not know all of the seeds people were voluntary. Yeah, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:54

Every single one of us, none of us are paid, and none of us have ever been paid.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:59

What I think that's news to a lot of people, like in in in our aspect of this community, you know, we're we're not owning agencies, and and but yeah, that that was a shocker to me too. I that even makes me I've I've been impressed with them from the the minute I found out about them, but it even takes my respect for them to such a higher level because that's a lot of people's within the community, have your own businesses, whatever it is, families, things like that, things outside.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:29

Like you're and then you said you're the president, and it's like, oh girl, you love to be busy.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:37

She loves doing the right thing, you can tell too. Like, yeah, I I can see it. I can just you've such a pure heart. I can just it just exudes through the zoom.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:47

It's just like but also it's really selfish, right? Like, there are very few people in this world outside of my industry that carry the weight, correct, and understand that I'm holding somebody's dream and their bank account in my hands. Like, how do you explain that to people who don't really know the industry, yeah, what we do?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:12

So having just like that, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:16

But even then it doesn't yeah, yeah. I know, I know, but when I'm checking my phone because we're expecting a surrogate, you know, to deliver and her intended parents aren't there yet, right? Like that doesn't mean the same thing to somebody who's outside of our industry as it does in our industry. And so having a group of people who get it and who also know we all started from scratch, every one of us, we all created something from scratch because there isn't um an infrastructure for this. It is the lifeline, I think, for so many of us, right? Attorneys have their bar, they have their state organizations, medical providers have their own community. Agencies don't. They don't, and so we need that resource to be able to stay on top of the ethical considerations, the education, because I have to know what's going on in all 50 states. Wow, yes, you do a good job, but also just so that somebody understands when I've had enough and I still have to be nice to that surrogate or that intended parent when they are in the midst of a total ridiculous meltdown or whatever it is, right? There's a hundred things like I have to show up for them in a way that I wouldn't show up for anybody else, except my own family, because you don't have a choice. So having an organization of people who carry the same weight and understand it, it's like going home, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:52

You don't have to explain your safe things you're in a community that understands, like mine.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:58

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:59

Yeah, yeah. Wow. Oh my you are really that really kind of makes you understand it a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you've been such a delight. Um oh my gosh. Like and your life experiences are just phenomenal. Everything, everything that makes you everything that makes you you is just like I'm like blown away.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:25

It's almost like meant to be. I don't know, you just just crazy. I know. You have such a huge heart.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:30

You did good for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:32

But you fostered kids

Fostering Teen Boys And System Burnout

SPEAKER_01 1:19:33

too. Like that's a huge undertaking.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:36

It did. It's amazing. Yeah, I fostered hard to place teen boys. That was my cohort. That was the group that I love.

unknown 1:19:44

What?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:45

Um, they were my favorites, so almost every one of them that I'd had had been in the system since they were very young. Um I really, really loved seeing these young men come into my family with this um tenacity to live through what they had lived through. Um, I thought it was really special to be able to recognize the skill sets they had developed that were maybe not the most effective for typical society, but they had learned how to survive. And I think that um not many people recognize that. And so being able to create a place where they could acknowledge that and maybe see that they had other options was really important to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:35

Wow. Incredible.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:36

Wow, incredible, and then the system burned me out and I stopped doing it because the kids are great, the system sucks. That's what I hear. That's what I hear.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:44

Yes, and that's we were, yeah, we were literally an application status and we pulled out. Yeah, sad, yeah, sad because of how bad it was. Yeah, yeah, it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:53

Yeah, that's that's not oh like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:57

That's a different conversation, but the fact that you even had that space and helped as many as you helped. I mean, even one, even helping one, like I yeah, yeah. Wow, you're you're a beautiful person. You really are. I don't know. Oh, that is so nice of you to say. Honestly, I absolutely I respect you to the nine, so I just can't. It's beautiful. Keep doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:19

Thank you, Mary, for the referral. Yeah.

unknown 1:21:22

Mary.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:24

Oh,

Where To Find Adrien And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 1:21:25

really lovely.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:25

Okay, Adrienne, if people want to find you, find more information about your agency, talk to you, go to seed ethics, everything. Where do they where do they go?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:34

Um, chances are they'll find us if they spend any time in the surrogacy world. Our agency is heart-to-hand surrogacy, so you can Google that and find our website. Um, my YouTube channel is Surrogacy Queen. Um, we are on Facebook, we are on LinkedIn, we are on, I'm not on TikTok. Sorry. Don't do everything. Um, I mean, we're around. I think the the easiest thing is to just put a shout and say, let's chat, let's chat. And then any one of us at Heart to Hands is gonna say, okay, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:10

Oh, wow. That's amazing. I'll put everything, I'll get all the links from from you or your team, and I'll put it all in the in the bio so people can just go and click. Oh my gosh. Wow. Thank you so much for all your time so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:25

Yeah, it's this one a little longer. So pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:29

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:30

Like this has been a really lovely afternoon. I've enjoyed meeting both of you. I've listened sporadically. Um, and so it's really nice to actually see you and see your expressions and how all you know that's a lot of them. It's it's lovely. I love expressiveness.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:48

That's what we are. But no, this was um, thank you so much. I know we've taken a lot of your time, but we sincerely appreciate all the information. And I know that so many listeners are gonna appreciate everything too. Cause yeah, wow, overload. So good, a good overload, great overload. So thank you. Oh my gosh, I'm actually gonna listen back like probably several times and be like, let me take some notes.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:13

All the best to you, your agency, you the the families you're helping create, just everything, just beautiful things to you. I really, and everything you touch.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:22

Do you ever think about coming to the seeds conferences? We do.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:26

We have, we have yes, haven't we? Yep, yeah, awesome. Wow, you're just so fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:32

Thank you so much.

unknown 1:23:33

This is yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:35

Thank you so much. Um, yeah, I'll put everything, I'll put all the links in the in the description. And I don't want to let you go, but I'm gonna, so I guess we'll talk. We'll we'll talk soon.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:46

It was a pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me to be on your podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:50

Absolutely. Thank you for accepting the invitation. Yeah, of course. Being so candid.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:55

This was lovely. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:57

Thank you so much. Have a great evening. Right, thank you. Bye. Bye. She's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:03

She's so fun. Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:06

Is it wrong that I like want to ask her to come back for like several others? I'm like, okay, now you and my mom just have to talk about like your time in the in the early 2000s. Cause like, holy cow.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:15

Better memories than I do. I I kind of like put it. But like that's just so crazy. That's the first person I've ever met that's that's way back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:23

That's what I'm saying. Like, yeah, as soon as she said that, I was like, oh god, mom's gonna flip. Yeah, like wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:31

That's right. Like, because I've been saying it for a long time. We weren't supported. There was nothing there for us. And she knows you've a lot of the things she said. Her validity on that just was like thank you. That just makes me feel not that we weren't supported, but it doesn't make me a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:45

She didn't even go with she didn't even go with agencies.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:47

No, yeah, it was petrified to go solo. And I did it three times, and I was seriously thinking about going solo. I just would love to pick her brain on that part of it. But yeah, more power to her. Like my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:59

That woman's done more in her lifetime than I would probably be ever able to do in ten of mine.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:05

And almost everything has a child surrogacy birth connection. Like it's it's all connected. Sorry. Yeah, it's all it's all connected, amazing. Phenomenal. Yeah. So thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:20

Yes, thank you for diving into like a bajillion things and somehow making it just over an hour. Like, I'm amazed. I kept looking at the time. I'm like, we're not at an hour yet. Really? That's amazing. Like, there's just so in so much information. Yeah, we were an hour and a half.

unknown 1:25:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:35

No, mom. I we were late. Oh, we were that late? Oh, sorry. Yeah.

unknown 1:25:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:42

But yeah, it's so it's it's not an hour and a half, it's a little less, but just yeah, and the time doesn't matter, whatever. Okay, but it doesn't. No, it doesn't. I'm just amazed at how much information was able to be shared within that time span. And on so many different spectacles, it's insane. I think I'm just gonna go be in shock for a hot minute, so it's fine. Um, Adrian, thank you so much. If anybody has any questions or stories that they would like to share or referrals, as Adrian was to us, um, please feel free to reach out to us on Instagram at stop periodsitperiod surrogate or at our email at stop periodsitperiod surrogate at gmail.com. And this has been another episode of Stopsit Surrogate with Kennedy and Ellen. Thanks again. Bye. Bye. Before

Final Thanks Subscribe And Resources

SPEAKER_02 1:26:29

we wrap up, a huge thank you to our sponsor, US Surrogacy. Their support helps us continue to share real stories, educate our community, and connect families through the incredible journey of surrogacy. Thanks so much for tuning in to Stops It Surrogate, where every story matters and every journey is worth sharing. We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:50

If you enjoyed this podcast, be sure to give us a like and subscribe. Also, check out the link to our YouTube channel in the description. And be sure to also check out our children's book, My Mom Has Superpowers, sold on Amazon and Etsy.