Meet The CEO: Pauline Nantongo Kalunda, Executive Director at ECOTRUST

Welcome to our episode of  Meet the CEO episode of the month!

This time, we feature Pauline Nantongo Kalunda, Executive Director at ECOTRUST, whose journey in conservation is as inspiring as it is impactful.

Passionate about empowering smallholder farmers, Pauline shares the story behind ECOTRUST's 27 years of work and the investments that have transformed lives across Uganda.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Welcome to another episode of Meet the CEO series. This time we feature Pauline Nantongo Kalunda, the executive director at EcoTrust, whose journey in conservation is as inspiring as it is impactful. Passionate about empowering smallholder farmers, Pauline shares the story behind EcoTrust's 27 years of work and the investments that have transformed lives across Uganda. In this episode, she explains carbon credits in a way you've probably never heard before, highlights the impact EcoTrust has made across more than 54,000 households, and shares the policy and investment changes needed for the conservation sector to thrive even farther. Join us as we sit down with a leader who's proving that conservation livelihoods and community empowerment can go hand in hand. From over 2,200 cities and 179 countries, we bring you the Good Morning Africa podcast. Good morning Africa. Welcome aboard your boss and everything business in Africa. I am Ruther Dong. For more follow us on Twitter, at the K Financial News, and you can find me at Ruther Dong.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

My name is Pauline Tombo Kalunda. I am the executive director of the Environmental Conservation Trust of Uganda. I am a conservation biologist. In addition to being the EDO Echo Trust, I also sit on a panel of experts that is an advisory panel set up by the King of England, King Charles, and President Macron. I might also sit on a number of boards of international organizations, specifically to represent perspectives from the global south, innovations and aspirations and how those are reflected in the environmental movement, conservation, biodiversity, conservation for climate change.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

When you are not being ED, what do you do? What are your interests?

SPEAKER_02 2:11

I walk a lot. I used to teach Sunday school, but now I just bump into the kids I used to teach and see the testimonies of the lessons I taught. I do quite a bit of sport here and there. I used to play basketball. I played a bit of rugby. Played a bit of soccer, but uh basketball is the only one I played representing Uganda at regional level. Soccer and rugby was just for fitness. I was once invited to give game experience, not was invited game because at that time they was they were just building the youth ladies team and they had no competition. So they invited some of us who wanna be rugby players to give them some experience of competition. First game we won. I thought I could play. Second game, one of the kids brought me down and then they realized, whoa, we can't bring her down. Third game. I decided I'm not cut out for this. So I only play touch rugby. Yeah, so yeah, so um, what do I do I travel? I travel quite a bit. I think there isn't a continent that I've never been to. I've been to Himalayas, I've been to Australia, I've been to Hawaii, I've been to Madagascar, I've been to all sorts of places that um some of which I had never dreamed to be. I had um when I was growing up, I had um a bucket list of places that I needed to go to, and I've been to all of them. Now I'm remaining, I keep changing my bucket list. I'm remaining with climbing the Missouri's. Hopefully I'll do that. And then I will also um I I want to visit Papua New Guinea someday. Very exotic place, very interesting people. But yes, so I I I've been all over the place basically.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Uh it's interesting that you've been all over the place, especially given that you are knee-deep in uh conservation and you know the uh conservation of the environment. But you know, to go there we need to start with what is ecotrust? For very many of us, you know, we are just landing on ecotrust because there's been this big blitz of 27 years of echotrust. But we know that you've been here for 27 years. Why do we not know what ecotrust is?

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Echotrust is a typical um biologist kind of uh gem. Uh, biologists are a bit of introverts, they just go about their innovations and sometimes their innovations only get realized after they are gone or uh a lot of opposition. I mean, Darwin was almost excommunicated from judge for his theories. So EcoTrust is a typical biodiversity or biology um driven organization, but with a very strong passion to provide opportunities for nature stewards to make economic gains out of their stewardship. So, yes, we have been around for 27 years, which is also testimony to our resilience. The communities that we work with they know us, and um they they've they've welcomed us and they've worked with us. And also the international community that we link them to has has a very good appreciation. That's how come I get to travel that much because um and that's and that's how it is. You'll find a very good scientist somewhere in NASA from Uganda when Uganda does not know about them. Maybe it's just a bit of a prophet is not known. It could be, it could be, but actually we we just we we we were created um to fill the the space of conservation financing. And then we were we were we were required to be innovative within the goal of Ecotrust to provide sustained funding for conservation by promoting innovative you know approaches. So whoever what the whatever group of people designed Ecotrust designed it for innovation. So in the 27 years we have come up with very many innovations that create multiple opportunities for income generation from sustainable and use. So we would like people to make the right decisions over their land because it makes economic sense. Not because they are saving the world, but because it makes economic sense. Um smallholder farmers have sustained the economy in much, many more ways than we will ever recognize. And they are very innovative. They are sometimes even more innovative than real proper researchers or scientists. I remember one time we went to visit a group of farmers that were looking after a forest, restoring the forest, allowing it to grow with what they call assisted natural regeneration, where you instead of putting seedlings and whatever, you just allow whatever naturally regenerating trees, nurse them, and then they grow. And also sometimes you just look after stamps that are sprouting and manage them in a certain way. So we had a team of researchers and international NGOs that had visited on an exchange visit. So they asked one of the community members, where did you get this training from? They're like, which training. That how do you how are you able to tell which stamp to support and which one to cut out? And the man looked at us and said, come on, some of these things you use common sense, you know. So some of these things are really within them as second nature. Yet for us who have been to school, you need a book, you need a ruler, you need timing, you need a certain humidity, da-da-da-da-da. But for them, they can feel it. We have been um setting up a project on um what they call biodiversity credits to be able to come up with a way of um um giving rewards on on the basis of the biodiversity value that the community's initiatives have added on our site. And we sat down with them and requested them to come up with indicators. My goodness. The indicators that are important to them are things that when you see that insect, you know the weather is about to change. When you see this, you know, you know, they have their own ecological indicators that scientists probably don't even know. Yeah, so they are able to set up an monitoring system that is based on biodiversity indicators, but are also of relevance of relevance to them. So not only does Ecotrust do its own innovation, but it also supports uh the converting of those community-led innovations into uh investment opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

I know that seems like a long answer, but and maybe backtracking. What was the need uh then when you decided that ecotrust needed to be founded? Uh I know from a biological and a financial perspective, that has been answered. But there must have been a need that you realized and you decided that Ecotrust has to come into existence at this point.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah, so the decision to create Ecotrust was a mouth sectoral uh decision. Many years ago, USAID used to manage their grants before they went into this approach of where they get subcontractors to manage everything. Or even when they went into that phase, they used to manage the environmental aspects internally. So they had a grants management unit that had been set up for a program called Action Program for Environment. So after that program came to an end, they were phasing it out so that even the environmental aspects can be bidded for by the US-based internationals. That um so the the the need was that um uh a local infrastructure had already been set of where uh Ugandans had been employed by that uh unit, but also the unit had been being best here and working with people that are best in the country. It had it was close to the needs and aspirations of the people. So the the the the stakeholders decided that rather than leave this space for the competition to be all by internationals, we needed a local outfit that would compete with uh with those internationals in the in the bidding for those uh for those um uh programs. So that that's basically that was it. We needed we needed an outfit that should be able to have to give agency to local solutions and local and local innovations. So that's why it was actually created like that. Within its goal, there is there is innovations as as as part of it. Yeah, so basically that was it.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Okay. 27 years is a very, very long time. Yes. Uh what have been some of your biggest milestones that you look back and say these cemented what we know of Echotrust uh as we see it now?

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Okay, so first and foremost, when they formed, they formed. And then they did not have the money, but they they formed. So they were able to give to earn that $4.05 million dollars from USID. We what they call a sinking fund. So, yes, you've set up grants management infrastructure and I don't know, conservation findings, whatever it is that you have dreamt about. So here is a pot of money, but it's not yours. You you you you're testing your grants management um structures. So you have this five million, you're supposed to hand it over to other grants management service. Then when the first five years came to an end, there was no renewal. There was no renewal of that amount, but somewhere along the way they had started experimenting on carbon credits in 2003, just before that that fund came to an end. And uh normally the way donor money works is even everybody's employed on that project. So they lost all staff, but they they inherited some of the assets the cars, furniture, and what have you. And it was actually at that point that I was employed. Now I had been on the other side where people bid for money and grants from this big SID, you know, funded organization. And then I I I thought I'd come to work for a rich organization. And then in the in the first meeting, uh the board requested me to put the cards on the table. You said, I mean, we don't have funding, we only have funding to last you this long. Um we are taking a bet on you, and we would like you to give to give us um um a strategy. I didn't know what strategies look like. Um a strategy on how is is going to work. At that time I was very young, one child, baby, I was actually expecting my second child. So um I went and thought through, just looked at the operations, they were in some very posh neighborhood in Cololo. The rent was about to come to an end. In that posh neighborhood, they had all these um, you know, like donor-driven kind of um expenditure, you know, model and what have you. So I just looked at everything and brought it back down to earth and uh also looked at um opportunities for income generation. And I went and presented it before the board, and I just saw the board standing up, you know, like giving me a standing overship. And maybe I just put a few things on a piece of paper.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

I went before them, and one of the gentlemen was shouting, Now you know I insisted we hire this girl, you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Yeah, so then I was now tied to that little two-page thing that I had given the board, including um if we move away from that place, I was giving them a commitment that within two years we'll be in our own premises and so on and so forth.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

So yeah, I had so but but but but but again, uh we did.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

We did manage uh we within that by by April, I had brought uh I think two new projects, big projects on board, and by the time those projects came to an end, we had actually moved to our to our own uh premises. So then we launched uh the process of uh creating our own endowment fund because if we can provide services and able to to buy premises within that very short time, we should be able with very good, prudent financial management and and proper stewardship, we should be able to mobilize more resources to create our own um endowment fund. But also in the process, the carbon project that had been created, um we commercialized it. And by 2013 we had won a UNCD award as an innovative as an extremely innovative um um scheme. Now, Trees for Global Benefit is a cooperative carbon offsetting scheme where we work with smallholder farmers, we start at the landscape and identify the needs of the landscape. Then we identify the needs of the landscape and what needs to be done to address those needs or to remove the challenges or the barriers. But then we also go at household level, and every household develops a vision on how they see themselves benefiting and contributing to that vision. So then we look at what the communities have developed and use our scientific knowledge to technically specify it to be able to have it certified for the carbon market. So, and then in the carbon market, you only qualify for financing from the carbon market if you're having an innovation that would never have been possible without carbon finance. So these people have innovative ideas that are actually can be commercially viable, but the main barrier they have is investment finance. They do not have the money to invest in the things that they need to do, and also they are choosing between short-term investment horizons with this very long-term investment horizon that requires tree planting. So we have been able to create a financing model using the carbon credits as upfront financing, but also deliver it in a manner that triggers additional financial flows. For example, the farmers that we work with are able to use carbon, the carbon sale agreements that they have with us as collateral to access loans from their circles. You know, people in Uganda own land, but they don't have documentation to the ownership of that land. And without that documentation, there is no evidence you can take to the bankers' collateral. And we could have chosen to, you know, give them titling, supporting them with land titling so that they can use the land. But we decided that it would not be wise to get the only valuable asset they have to get it encumbered. If they can find alternative collateral from the works they do in that asset, it's it's a lot better that way. But also, these things are also created, are innovative by the farmers that we work with themselves. Every time you go back, you find they've experimented on something. So we did not set out to, for example, use, come up with a system where people can use, but because we were paying money to circles or through circles, the circles saw that oh, these these are secure future cash flows that can be used to support loan financing. And they were coming on time and they are predictable, and therefore, if someone is able to take you if you study their contract, you will know when their payment is coming and you should be able to give them a loan. Yeah. So then we added it onto our model. So we we take a learning by doing approach where the farmers that we are working with innovate and then we study their innovation and then grow it into something that we now add on our on our model. And then the same platforms that we use to access carbon credits, because it's an aggregation platform, it works with uh it's a competitive carbon offsetting scheme where different smallholders in different locations do different initiatives, different actions. We have a database that is able to take to technically specify each intervention, and then when the farmer puts, when we transcribe the information on the farmer's land use plan into the database, it works out how many carbon credits are coming from that person. Then we aggregate together uh 50,000 plus farmers, and then they're able to achieve marketable scale and sell as a group, but when the money comes back, it's distributed as cash transfers to the individual farmers. So there is a social capital built around that because farmers they meet together, they plan together. So that social capital can also enable so many other things. It can enable um cooperative marketing, group marketing, they they they do group most of the crops that are marketed through uh coffee, uh fuel wood. Uh some of the groups we are working with are the largest suppliers of fuel wood to tea factories in that uh Nubirizi uh area. Um and honey. Honey is a big one where they are accessing international markets. So with honey and it would now recently added shear the shear nut for northern Uganda. So with honey and shear, we have um off takers. So so So the the the relationships that we build, the market relationships that we build, uh some of them are built on offsetting arrangements where private sector in Europe mostly, there are a few here, but our footprint is not that big. But also the the awareness about it is not that great. But mostly in Europe and the US, we have private sector partners who on an annual basis um estimate their own footprint or calculate their own footprint, put a dollar value to it, and then offset it through the farmers that we work with. But we also have what we call an insetting arrangement, whereby, whereas offsetting the private sector partner is engaging with farmers that have no relationship with his own value chain, with the insetting partner, the offsetting partner has a relationship with their value chain. So it's more engaging. So we, for example, worked with coffee buyers. Coffee buyers are cognizant of the risks associated with the quality of coffee as a result of reduced tree cover. So they understand that it affects the moisture content, it affects the fertility, the soil fertility, it affects so many things. So, but then also the whole process of producing and exporting coffee also has a footprint. It has a water footprint, it also has a carbon footprint. So on the on the on the European markets where they sell the coffee, the every every bag of coffee, the footprint is indicated, and then there is a there is a price um added as a result of that footprint, and when they sell it, the money comes back straight to the farmers that also grow the coffee so that they can uh implement um tree uh tree growing enterprises but also other soil and water conservation practices like grasswater, we use terracing and so on and so forth. Then we also have the off-taking arrangement because if people invest in forestry as a land use, and then the products of forestry never see the market, they will abandon that land use. So we also have um engagements with off-taking partners. For now, we have with honey and with um shear butter, that one is going through an organic process. Coffee is a very privileged crop in Uganda. Once you have good quality coffee, you should be able to find a market. So we empower the farmers through their platforms to be able to do the bulking to try and eliminate as many middlemen as possible so that they can they can get access premium premium. Yes. Then now we are also uh extending into what we call resilient resilience enterprises because now all these enterprises have been market-based incentives. Uh we are looking at the coffee, the cocoa, the whatever you're getting to the market. But yet they are also things that are needed at a domestic level, and even your neighbors can become your market. Yeah, but also first and foremost, things to deal with food security, uh, vegetable gardens, ruminants, goats, and and and and all that, and then um fuel wood, but also you can also make it at commercial level and sell medicinal extracts, that sort of thing. So, yes, it's trees for global benefit. The very biggest um income stream there is is carbon credit. Carbon credits, but the at community level, actually, carbon credits, the income from carbon credits is is the smallest of what else they are able to do with that land use that has been um incentivized by carbon credits.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

My god, that's you sound like you are encouraging uh the principles of agroecology, yes, the different communities. Yes, you know, you're self-sustaining, but you're also ensuring that your self-sustenance uh gives you uh you know, gives back to the environment, but also put some money in your pocket. Yes, which is you know, again, one of the new concepts that now is being re-marketed. Agroecology and it pays well. Um donors are giving a bit more money for people who are practicing agroecology, so I hope that the farmers are able to earn from something that they've been doing for for the longest time, yeah, that now people are putting a name to. Um, but I think for me, I would also like to understand. I I know you know when we had the discussion uh two, three weeks ago at the launch, you spoke about 54,000 households being impacted by some of the programs that have been done under equal. What does 54 households look like? What sort of you know, and I know of course there's money from cupboard cramps and all these things that you're doing, but talk to us about impact.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

You see, the um the the the very first one is that for the majority of the families that we work with, for the majority of the households that we work with, they they never really sat down to write a plan. You know? So so so the fact that someone can sit down and look at their land as an asset that they can make a return on investment on, that is really the like the number one game changer. Because with a very simple meeting and setting the vision and seeing how barriers can be removed, you are supporting someone to make a decision to switch from short from something of a short-term investment horizon to a long term. For me, that is the most fundamental thing that happens at household level. And then the way we do it, we have this system. There is uh there's a methodology that was developed by Oxfam called gender actual learning systems. It's it was a methodology that was created for men and women to plan together to address some of these gender constraints that uh hinder development initiatives. So we have adopted it and then we've trained the farmers to use it. So for a family to sit, I mean we've seen things like uh domestic violence and what have you coming up as part of the vision, the vision road journey. How land as an asset, because they also fight over land as an asset, how land as an asset can actually be used to address all those issues, how land as an asset can be used to meet the needs and aspirations of a different of the different family members. For us, that is really like the most fundamental uh change that has happened. And then the rest is really as a result of that. So as a result of those changes they have made, we put the tree here, now we put them here. Maybe we just put them on the boundary land, but this one is for this, this one is for that. And then for us, by reading those, by reading those plans, we are able to get a landscape restoration plan from from um interpreting those different 51,000, 54,000 household scattered plans. Yeah, so so then um so so then when they do that, the the social capital, the the fact that now they've come together as a group, they have a common vision, but within that common vision, they are also able to confront um disaster. They're able to confront when when when climate change visits on them, disaster, uh like the people of Cassess say the floods and and the and the land, the land, the landslides and so on and so forth, they have a social infrastructure that is able to support them to deal with the issue. But also we have um we have a risk fund. So if someone has been in our program and has been growing trees and has a plan and then that disaster happens, it's it's it serves as an insurance for people to be able to recover. You know, the ability something that gives you an ability to dream, you know. I don't know whether you've ever been in those situations where because because because you think that your dream is impossible, you're even uh curtailing your own growth, and then someone just comes up to you and just opens your eyes and says, It is okay if you have that dream, we can actually commodify something that you never thought can be commodified. You can commodify air. You know, the fact that you are you are your trees are uh absorbing carbon dioxide can actually be converted into monetary terms, and then you see how the cash flows are coming, and all of a sudden people from Europe are coming to visit you because they're coming to to learn from you. So the level of empowerment and and hope that it gives, but also that translates into the other enterprises. Yeah, actually, the number one benefit that people have has always been school fees, uh, probably health uh followed by health. And then the other is is a legacy, because they say, Finally, I have an inheritance to leave my children. Most of them don't expect to be alive at the time of um, I mean, it's that long an event an investment horizon. So they don't they don't even expect to be alive by the time of maturity, and they are aware and they tell you, finally, I have an inheritance to leave my children. And remember the children have been part of this whole household planning. But we have now reached a stage of of where the first farmers have can harvest much and table timber. So it's also not quite um uh not quite that you can't you can't outlive your your tree growing investment. And we grow strictly indigenous trees of Uganda. So by having those indigenous trees, first and foremost, by the time we started, there was no literature whatsoever on how to grow those trees. They were in the forest, but nobody knew how old they were. Um, nobody knew how, because they would they would grow by themselves, so to speak. They were naturally generating trees. Most of the tree growing was eucalyptus and pine. So even when we we didn't even have literature to support the technical specifications. So the first technical specification we we developed was the tree called Musizi, mysopsis, it grows everywhere, and we would find some people have planted it somewhere, or they know that all those seeds of mysopsis drop. So you can you can because for you to do a carbon model, you need to find trees of known age, and then you measure their carbon. That's when you do the projections that okay, for a 25 uh rotation period, the carbon absorption rates are going to be like this. So you need different trees, and then you do those uh those extrapolations and projections. So we couldn't even do multiple species because there was no known, there was no you know reliable information. So these farmers have experimented. Now there is literature drawn from these farmers on how the tending of these trees works and how the growth rates are and how their carbon sequestration potential is. And then those trees, those same trees that we grow on private land, mahoganes, um, mobilees, and what have you, are the same trees that people look for in the forest. So they provided an alternative source and able to relieve pressure from the forests. The majority of the communities that we work with also have co-management agreements with protected areas. So they they they they build their skills on their farms, but also those skills are transferred into the forest that is neighboring them. So the project is helping to relieve pressure from the protected areas, but also the participant in the project also contribute to the to the reforestation and the regeneration of degraded parts in protected areas. So there are about 10 protected areas that we that are communities we are neighboring, uh the communities that we are working with are neighboring, and so the project has also contributed to the conservation of those um of those protected areas, yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Okay, and I know you already spoke about equity uh and equality, but like you said, uh in Uganda we know that land management mostly falls in the hands of men. Yes, and yet we know that most of the people who are tilling it are women. How do you ensure that the ones managing the land are actually benefiting from uh the person putting in the the money work is is is getting a share of the monies that are coming from this land management use?

SPEAKER_02 35:18

So that that that that continues to be a challenge, although we have um we have found many different ways of dealing with it. But it is it is a challenge where whoever is going to have such an initiative must be cognizant of. So the way we approach land rights and land rights are crucial because you can only enter into an agreement with the person who is a legitimate owner of land. Yeah. But when we are designing the project, we we we recognize first and foremost the whole household approach. So when we are engaging with, we by the time we set carbon credits, we have finished all the planning. So we start by what are the needs of this household, how can this land be used to meet the needs of this household? But the needs of this household also include uh um managing the land, managing the land, and and so for for what objective? So we we at that level we are already trying to make sure that um everybody's objective is integrated into the management objective for which we are we are deciding the solution. So we also have there are many tools that we use in there. There's a challenge action tree which we use to identify barriers and so on and so forth at community level and at household level. Then we we also have champions. So we have champions, like they're especially those men that have many wives and maybe a bit of land, and they've been fighting with other wives, but then by going through these trainings, they're actually able to realize nah it's I'm better off making every wife of mine a participant and also me a participant. So divide up land, each wife has theirs, he also has his portion, so the whole household has brought on board 10 hectares or five hectares as opposed to him just doing one hectare because the tending and growing of trees is not a simple exercise. And remember the people that we target are smallholder farmers who depend on household labor for for almost everything, which is also another problem. So you you will sign up the man, but then he is he is depending on household labor, and that household labor is the same labor that is available for even the other food crops and all that. So we also address that as as its own challenge, and we we we also um, you know, with agroecology, if you're mixing the trees with with the crops, the same labor that is clearing for the for the tree trees, the same labor that is clearing for the crops, up to the point when the when the trees maybe form a canopy. But depending on your long-term plan, if you intend to do that forever, then the the spacing of the trees is much wider. So that you know, so we we come up with many innovations that show people that you can work together, you can all achieve your goal. And uh that we've learned with together with the community. So there was a place, one of the very first places that is in Mitoma district in uh Biteriko subcounty. Um, because this program started with 33 different 33 farmers, like 10 from Biteriko, another 10 from Chianga, maybe 11 from Chianganga, then 12 from the Mioguru area from now current present day reason. So the Biterico group was a women's group, mostly widows and you know, people had been a bit of access to land, but then also other women came in. So when those women who had husbands uh heard about this money, they would walk. You think you're paying a woman, but yes, come with a man accompanying her. As soon as they see the money, they hand it over, they hand it over to the husband. So those women themselves identified that as a as a challenge and decided what do we lose by allowing male membership. So they opened up. Its name is still Biteraco Women's Group, but they have the same number of women and men. And sometimes botherical women's group is headed by a man, you know, it's a person can be male or female. So they opened up, so because people, you know, there is land fragmentation, so people have different pieces of land in different places, so even the men were able to to bring other pieces of of land on board so they can also they can also have access. So um that way you're able to provide um space. You know, for example, if we had only said no, this is a women only, we would have continued to have that challenge. But because we take this whole household approach, we we are able to to provide space for for multiple multiple participants, but then also with these gender champions, sometimes it's someone who um used to have those issues but has overcome and then has the benefits. So he's able to talk to fellow men that you can you can actually benefit, you start to benefit better by uh providing space for for your wife to to participate. But there are also other things like people think that uh women going to sit city meetings is is is almost akin to prostitution. You know, there are there are funny things in the field there that uh you know what kind of a woman, what you're irresponsible for you to be finding time to go hanging out in these so-called training things. So a lot of awareness is is is is required and also to engage all stakeholders as opposed to targeting only a specific um gender, for example, for something like that. So in that way we are able to recognize the ownership rights, the use rights, the management rights. We recognize that there are layers of rights, and it's not really just about only the person in whose names or uh the the land is that that you engage to be able to make the decision because the decisions affect so many things, even the success of the project. And that has been very, very important. We were recently analyzing, of course, along the way you get dropouts for many different reasons, but death is not the leading cause of dropouts. People have died and passed on the project to their children. Yeah, yeah. Things like uh selling to disinterested people or even government programs, the road comes and cuts through the area, but also plus all these disasters, um landslides and what have you. Death is not the leading cause of droppers. The majority of the families whose index participants has passed on, the rest of the people have continued with there are some who have abandoned, but the majority of people have really continued, including people who are a man has been working and then all his children are in Kampala. Still, it's a case of yeah, at least let that land be um what is our word protected by having a forest on it. We probably will not have uh you know people stealing the land or what have you. So even even the the the trees, uh then yeah, so so that's I think that's that's so it's it's uh it's it's um a program that has so many auxiliary benefits and they keep they keep cropping up, they keep they keep coming also. It requires a lot of engagement, it's very heavy on engagement. Can you imagine those 54,000 farmers?

SPEAKER_01 43:09

We conduct home visits. We conduct home visits, everybody in their first year, which we call year zero, in their second year, which we call year one, in their third year, in their fifth year, in their seventh year, in their tenth year.

SPEAKER_02 43:24

So on average we do around 20-something home visits. And then, of course, technology has developed and you can do these carbon models and monitoring using remote sensing and what have you. But the small older farmer is so relational, yeah, it's so relational. That visit on the farm is so crucial to hear them out and give them encouragement, but also we don't have extension services in Uganda. Those visits also serve as extension service provision visits. So, in turn, you can see that we provide full-time and part-time employment to a host of Ugandans. There are not too many carbon experts in Uganda, there are not even too many foresters in Uganda. But we have those those monetary spots where we are able to get fresh graduates from Makare, introduce them to very high-level scientific practice of scientific things that they've only seen in theory and water view, and get them ready for the market. Because every year they come, they do the monitoring, then they can move on to work with the organizations that are looking for such expertise. But also us when we are expanding, that is the source of improv of that's the pool. That's a talent pool. Because this business of ours is a business where the critical skills are not readily available on the market. But then you have to add, you have to add the forestry plus resilience, being able to climb those mountains and look for trees, and passion. So having those things together is not simple. So when we have 75 fresh graduates from Mackay, some of them undergraduates, some of them uh postgraduates, some of them diploma from year and what have you. Unleash them, you see someone's passion, you can see it from the way they engage, from the way they from the content of their reports, from the timeliness of their but also the quality and what then you you find promising people. So when people ask you, Pauline, you are looking for to employ, like I'll try something. But also us as soon as we get like recently we had a World Bank funded project, and we needed to mobilize 35 project officers within two weeks. And that was the value proposition we brought onto the table because it was um it is a project that has been supported by an international organization. But then we we we we were the best fitted partners to that project because it it we didn't know we don't even require two weeks to give you a set of uh very good people that you can deploy on on such uh initiatives.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

That's you know, those are very detailed. I think for me, I'd also like to understand some of the challenges that you're you're you're you're you're in a space that is considered niche. It's not just environmental conservation, it's environmental conservation, environmental financing, which so it it narrows down to such a niche um set of uh topics that then you know I think that your challenges are just as niche. How do you how do you find your voice in a market like that? But also in a country where people do not understand these concepts or these concepts seem like largely foreign. How do you, you know, how what some sort of challenges that you have to deal with?

SPEAKER_02 47:26

It's a niche within a niche, yeah? A niche within a niche because it's it's niche like you described it. The industry is niche. Okay, first and foremost, you are you are bringing smallholder farmers onto this table where this is a very exclusive market. And then you're making it sound like smallholder farmers understand these things. So we've actually been a subject of um researchers that that that believe in um what's that theory, that believe in the theory that one can only participate one one can only give because you see um the the carbon market is supposed to be it there is a there is uh there is something called um free and prior-informed consent. So free and prior-informed consent is uh is is is is is quite crucial in um in uh among the and among the safeguards. You you know you you don't you don't just almost you don't just wake up in the morning and and and decide that I'm going to take that land, I'll give you carbon credits. You must show that you have um you must show that you have you must show that you have engaged with uh you have played with the with the landholder and they have accepted to enter into this. So we have researchers that have made it their life mission to prove the world to the world that it is not possible for a smallholder farmer to understand this market. And therefore, it is not possible for EcoTrust to claim that these smallholder farmers put their land under trees out of free and prior informed consent. So, yeah, so they don't. And they have been they have been like I think it's called the subsumption theory. The subsumption theory which says that one is only able to understand certain things depending on the information they already have. So because the smallholder farmers don't live in the in the global north, and the global north is where people do offsetting, they cannot possibly understand exactly the c so we have that, we have a couple of researchers, like five of them. They take occasion, whatever progress we make. If we win an award, an investigation is coming. If we achieve a certain milestone, we have achieved one million certificates issued, an investigation is coming. You know, we something like that. And it doesn't matter that they have gone to that we have 54,000 households, they will find those two that dropped out. And they will find the story why they dropped out, and they'll say something like, Yeah, I chose the wrong choice of trees for my land. No technical system is provided, you know. So that that actually is the thing that that's the biggest challenge for the smallholder farmer at the beginning. I mean, this is something so abstract that you're talking about. So the first thing that with these land grabbers, maybe these people just want to steal our land. So you have to develop um, what is it called, trust with the communities. Now the community, now you've developed trust. We know you're not going to steal our land, you're not going to steal our trees. When and in what form are you coming for your couple?

SPEAKER_01 51:12

How are you gonna bring a machine and siphon it out of the tree?

SPEAKER_02 51:16

What does it work? But in the frequently asked questions, we are able to make a list of what is it, first and foremost, what is it that is of concern? So when we are doing free and prior-informed concert, we know that the people know will my run land rights be protected? Are the trees are the trees mine? Will I continue using the land? Those are the things that they they those are the questions that are frequently asked. That means those are the issues of concern and those are the things we need to clarify before entering into a contract. The market expects us to to make the farmer understand this is not methane, it's it's carbon. It's not nitrous oxide, it's things that are completely irrelevant. So a third-party verifier will come to see, or even those researchers, they'll come to see, did you, did these people understand? You know, yet for them, for the communities, the things, the things that are of concern to them are will my land rights be protected from ownership, access, management. When do I expect the payment? What do I need to do to get the payment? But the market thinks that the farmer wants to know who is buying my carbon, what do they use it for? You know those things. Yeah. Get the so the we have diverse stakeholder interests and it's a very fecal market. Any the buyer can abandon you anytime. Remember, you have mobilized farmers that are growing trees for 25 years, for 35 years. Yet any one of those um um so-called investigations and blown out of proportion um um media things are able to completely take you out of out of action. But over the years we have uh built a credibility story. We had built, we have been subjected to all manner of audits and investigations and everything, and every time they come back, they they they they've cleared us. But also um the the impact speaks for itself. When you go to the communities, it speaks it speaks for itself, and also there's so many spin-offs that come with it. Now we are at that stage where you know there's this Paris Agreement has opened up the market, has put a lot of spotlight on the market that has many benefits, but also very many shortcomings. So the large scale, the now the large scale investors who like to come come in, which is good because, for example, we've only been dealing with smallholder farmers. There is the large holder farmer, it should be part of it. But no, they want it all, eh? They just want it all, they just want jurisdiction approach. Whoever is in there sells to one person, you know, and not everybody is cut out for engagements with smallholder farmers. Uh individual, they make their decisions, they've they've seen so much. Uh, there's very little you can threaten them with. And uh, yeah, so it's there are their benefits, but also there are quite a few challenges. And also all those other um things, uh other bad competition things come in because we must displace this. And and then also that project developers they think that where we have succeeded, that's where the low-hanging fruits are. Yet for us, we went for the marginalized, we went for the base of the pyramid, we we went for a target group that is not attractive to anybody. But in the same way as we make them attractive to off-takers and and we've also made them attractive to these other development partners. Except most of the times they they they would come in and then they just want to harvest where you've already invested. But we have engaged and um we have one of the things, engagement, but also investing in systems for transparency, for traceability, for everything around that that field. And then also we're not afraid to share our knowledge and innovations and what we know with other people because every single community in Uganda is inviting us to take this project there. But we don't have a sufficient supply of buyers to uptake everybody. So if we can share our innovations that are because other people have access to market. Those big players and what are you doing, they have access to market. That's why I said that we are in a niche within a niche. So for us, we sell, we get our money, the money that we get from small older farmers, are those, you know, there is a compliance market and there is a voluntary market. The compliance market are people who are who have been obligated by law to offset their footprint. But we work with industries that are not considered high um high emissions with high emissions, and but they've just decided we are going to have a zero impact on the environment, and they are desirous of delivering money to the smallholder farmers. So they are using the carbon credit as a unit of performance, but really their desire is to deliver money to into the hands of the smallholder farmers, but maybe because they are related with their supply chain, but also because whatever, what for whatever um um corporate social responsibility reasons that they may have. So that's that's so that's that's the smallest, it's a very small segment of that market. That's why I said it's a niche within a niche. But those people are very choosy and picky when they find a good project, they stick with it. Most of our offsetting partners, we've been with them for more than a decade. Um the the unless people go out of business or a London officer that we've been working with, and then there's even a merger, they've they've shifted to another country, something like that. But most of our buyers stick with us for the long haul.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

Okay. I think a question that I'd also like is I know you've spoken about challenges, but what are some of the changes you'd like to see in your sector? And your sector is white, and yet it's also very niche. So you can you know talk to us from the white sector angle to the niche um point of view.

SPEAKER_02 58:07

Um I don't even know how to say this, but uh the double-mindedness in the sector needs to go away. You know, when you look at Uganda's policies, they are benchmarked on best practices, they are quoted. Many developing places actually come and learn from us. Very, very, very good policies. But my God, the implementation of those policies. The the almost lack of uh willingness to to pursue what is guided in those policies. The environment issues place second feed on to many of these other sectors. You look at the National Development Plan, it says, it clearly says that forestry and and whatever have you are the the bedrock of the economy in Uganda. But when but the way they look at it is almost from extraction, not as an asset that needs to be invested in to be able to support the economy. So that kind of a mindset needs to change. There has been attempts at um the national accounts, the national accounting system to go to be able to put a value to the natural assets as an account that a country has, just like all the other things that they put in GDP. But still it has not yet translated into the investments budget-wise and so on and so forth, the recognition. I I do realize that alongside education and health and what have you can't quite compete. But I think that it can be better. It can be better if we can recognize these natural assets, it's these natural assets, actual assets. And for an asset to be able to generate revenue for you, there's a level of investment that is required so that we just don't look at it as extraction, you know, just to always um use. For for this, um, for example, payment for environmental services, carbon credits, and by reverse credits and what have you, there's a lot of um, should I call it awareness, but a certain form of uh appreciation that these are not, this is not a cash bonanza, this is not uh some some gold rush of sorts, but it a time of reflection. A time of reflection as a country we we made what we call nationally determined contributions, and some of them are voluntary, some of them are some of them are conditional, some of them are unconditional. But you know, the the mindset normally is of where is the carbon money? We need we need to access it. Where is it? You know, we need to do it. We need to go back to read what we committed ourselves, and it's also one of the countries that first uh published its nationally determined contributions. We are always giving uh progress reports a lot of you during those UN conventions and so on and so forth. But but but we need to understand that uh within that nationally determined contribution, there is an objective to build our own resilience. So the driving, the driving forces or the driving factor should not necessarily be talking the clock, should not necessarily be where is the carbon money, who is the carbon money, should we tax them, or should we uh are they cheating? Are they, you know, of course, all those issues of equity and um and transparency and what have you are required. But first and foremost, how do we build an enabling environment that will enable Ugandans to build their own resilience towards climate change? And people don't understand that these things affect all of us. Places like Kavale, Fort, they never used to worry about malaria. Because those are very cold places, a a mosquito is not able to thrive in those conditions. But right now they they have to confront to deal with malaria because the temperatures have now become conducive for a mosquito to thrive there, yes. So there is, and then all of us are pardoned because the health burden has increased, the hospitals are overwhelmed, but in some places, really, even the personnel in that place they don't know how to deal with some of with some of these um um illnesses or diseases. When you look at agriculture, we when we we don't we we are we are very gift, we are very blessed country because of our location in in the center of Africa. We have characteristics that are representative of North Africa, we have West Africa, we have East Africa, then we have Central Africa. There are species for whom, which are Eurasian, but they migrate, and their southernmost range is Uganda because they come as close to the equator as possible. We have species that should be restricted in the southern Africa and all those other places below, but they also migrate and their northernmost range is Uganda. So we become, we are a very biodiverse country. We need to capitalize on that. We need to understand, we need to understand what an asset it is, and when do those species actually come. The treatures that that uh follow them, how can we uh develop like tourism products around around some of those things? Um, but also the biggest challenge that we face in uh Uganda is either too much rain or too little rain, or unpredictable rain in most of Uganda. When you if you just look at the annual rainfall millimeters, you would think that this country has no drought, it has no any of those things because when you take it as a bulk, there isn't sufficient moisture to enable. But when when when the rains come, they can come in their drawers. If if you're growing things like beans, they they are rotting because it's just too much moisture in the in the ground. And then on a very good season, you have a bumper harvest, and then the post-harvest facilities are so poor, and then you're getting a very, very low price because everybody is in the market at the same time. So there are so many things that need to be worked on, there's so many things that need to be worked on to just make sure there is sufficient food throughout the year, and you know, and able and kind of like stabilized market of source, but even be able to export and so on. We are able to be a food basket of the region, but then all these things, this is a bubber harvest, you don't know what to do with then. Even the roads, in when you have a bubber harvest, it rains so much, even the roads were washed away, you can't even access the market. So there is a lot of infrastructure that that we need to invest in to build the resilience. But people need to understand, we need to understand that we are in this together and and that almost we need all hands on deck. But and and every deck is is every side of the deck is probably different from the other yeah, but we need to find find ways of accommodating it. Let's not get carried away with this feeling that carbon money is is some bonanza of sorts that um um maybe is going to, you know, like oil, bring an end to all our suffering.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:56

Okay, and for me in conclusion um What do you want the legacy of Ecotrust to be? Um, with twenty-seven years, we hope, you know, another hundred we'll we'll see you for another hundred years or our children will. But what do you want the legacy of Ecotrust to be?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:15

I want Eco I want Ecotrust to be remembered as that organization that popularized the the the um trees, forestry as a crop, trees as a crop, to go the tree be able to compete favorably with sugarcane. That that people out of their own accord, even probably without carbon credits, they can get to that level where uh the multiple income streams are able to make that a land use of choice.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:55

Um and also and okay, just going back, how I know I said the final question, but you are the prophet, you're Jesus, more known outside his hometown than in his uh okay. What you know what are you doing differently to ensure that we we know who Echotrast is, we appreciate you, the prophet in his hometown.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:28

We have decided that uh you don't light a candle and put it under the table. You don't light you don't light a candle and put it under a blanket. It will actually burn you. So maybe some of the criticism we've been receiving is the ban is the candle burning us. Um so we've decided that we will document our story or tell our story. We'll document our story um but also we'll give the platform for the farmers themselves to be those to tell that story. We will work with experts, we recognize that for us we are biologists, we will do what we do best, do the biology and work with the communities, but we will find experts go into experts, for example. Right now we have an engagement with COG to be the ones to handle that whole process of um of telling our story. But also in the telling of our story, we'll also engage experts, expert economists, social workers, biologists, climate experts, to keep putting the bar high. We have adopted what we call what is known as livelihoods framework, and it looks at um five capitals uh natural capital, financial and economic assets, or social capital, human, human capital. And we have assessed and seen that actually we contribute to all those, to contribute to all those capitals. So what we are doing now is to develop indicators and be able to identify which areas we are not as good at as other areas and keep innovating and being able to tell the world the innovations that we have done and how far where they brought us from and how far they've taken us in each of those uh five capitals. So we we will be telling the world through through a language they understand, um, the experts and what are you telling that language, but also the communities able to tell their language in a language they understand. We have a program called Farmer Voice Radio, where farmers are the experts and they form listener groups, they come up with a farming calendar and then they agree on which issues are relevant at what part, and then the listener groups will meet and discuss those issues, and then those issues form content for radio. So we are turning our farmers into experts. We we have farm people started out as farmers. A farmer, also a primary school teacher, that eventually became a staff member of EcoTrust and is now a regional coordinator. Actually, he's an international trainer. So we will keep picking up on those innovations and create space for the world to know that Uganda is not just a food basket, but it's also a basket of innovations and that people are available to share that knowledge and um and transfer the innovations to the rest of the world with primary focus on Africa. And so we are part of an organization called Africa CSO Badiverse Alliance, whose board I actually chair. We created that alliance to be able to make sure that we we throw a spotlight on Africa homegrown solutions. We have so many people that have innovated in many different ways. It's living in some very obscure locations, but the world does not know them. They only know what we call the bingos and the big international NGOs. So we created and we've been able to input to collect views and input into, for example, the global biodiversity framework, we call the post-2020 global biodiversity framework that was supposed to have been launched in China, but because of COVID, it was it was uh signed in uh in um uh Montreal. So it's called the Cumning Montreal uh Biodiversity. Uh so we have all those innovations we must put a spotlight on this very innovative work uh that has been able to create a model business case for landscape restoration as a business.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:57

Okay, um thank you so much for coming on to meet the CEO and for giving us the backstory of Ecotrust, um, your story with smallholder farmers, and we hope that um that we're able to tell your story uh in a way that people understand it, but also people to understand your work better. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:24

Thank you very much, and thank you very much for putting a bit of sound to my voice, I think, to my story. Like I said, we prefer to live a quiet life serving Jesus. But um, yeah, we we think we believe that we have so much to tell.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:41

Thank you for always waking up with us. Good morning, Africa's a product to the K Financial. If you have suggestions or want to check out more stories, visit the website that's the Kfinancial.com. Don't forget to subscribe, you can find us on all social media platforms at the K Financial, and you can find me at the Dominican.