Where Next? Travel with Kristen and Carol
Where Next? Travel with Kristen and Carol
Spain - Camino de Santiago - Travel with Roger
✨ Get inspired to "Live Out Your List" by following Roger:
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Hosts
Carol Springer: https://www.instagram.com/carol.work.life
Kristen: https://www.instagram.com/team_wake/
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Hi, welcome to our podcast when Next Travel with Kristen and Carol. I am Kristen and I am Carol, and we're two long-term friends with a passion for travel and adventure.
Speaker 2:Each episode, we interview people around the globe to help us decide where to go next. In today's episode, we are meeting with Roger, the host of the Crossing it Off podcast, where he dives deep into his adventure in Spain on the Camino de Santiago pilgrimage. Enjoy adventure in Spain on the Camino de Santiago pilgrimage Enjoy, roger.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining us from the Crossing it Off podcast. Crossing it Off, I love that name of the podcast. I've got to hear the start of that how did you come up with that?
Speaker 3:What made you create that one?
Speaker 3:So a lot of it had to do with me being turning 50 in 2020 and expecting to have a full year of celebration and, as we all know, that did not happen.
Speaker 3:And so I went through that year and was, you know, like most people, kind of depressed, trying to figure out, you know, what my life meant and you know, just being at home, just stewing in my own stuff and at the end of 2020, I had a heart attack.
Speaker 3:And so, after that happened, I really began throwing myself into you know, finding my self-worth, and a lot of it was like most Americans 95% would say they have a bucket list and yet only 40% actually write one down and actually do anything about it. So for me, it was that turning point of just saying, okay, I want to be known as this person that goes out and lives life experiences. And so I went to all my socials and changed my job position to be head crosser offer at my bucket list and decided that that was the direction I was going to go. And just in that process of finally writing a list down, and I just decided there's got to be other people out there in the same kind of mood at least, and so I just started seeking out people that had crossed off their bucket list and created a show based around that.
Speaker 2:So that's how that all came to be yes, I just had a new one idea I think you might have done one on this where you light the the candles in in asian countries. They're not in bangkok on the um, of course they was it. Uh, the bad the bachelor, not the bachelor, the bachelor party or something. I can't remember the Hangover they all had those kites flowing up. Oh my gosh, that would definitely be amazing. I think you had a woman on your podcast.
Speaker 3:Yes, I had the floating candles.
Speaker 2:The floating candles. Okay, so give us that, and I know we want to talk a lot about the Camino Real as one of our focuses. But what are maybe three of your bucket list items?
Speaker 3:That I've crossed off or that I'm-.
Speaker 2:Either either crossed off or pending, just to kind of give people an idea of like oh yeah, I never thought of that as a bucket list item.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So a lot of my drive is to get people to see that bucket list items don't have to be these huge, mega expensive exotic trips, but that they can be things that you just want to do. And so for me, I crossed off getting knuckle tattoos. That was something big. I've been tattooing for 20 plus 25 plus years on my body and never done my knuckles, but always wanted them. So I did that last year. I wrote a book last year and for the future stuff I'm hoping to cross off all 50 states this year.
Speaker 3:It's been a big one for me. I only have two left, so trying to accomplish that. And then I'm big on setting an intention for your bucket list. It's a great way to drive the creation of it and also crossing items off of it, and so a lot of my items tend to be communal in nature, and so one of the big ones for me is to take my two middle school buddies that we've been friends with for like 35 years and go to the world championship barbecue in Memphis, tennessee. So we're going to try to get that done this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, I never heard of that. That sounds, yeah, that sounds really cool.
Speaker 1:I actually have someone who did the barbecue. He's a chef and he's my chef for my wake surf event and he did a road trip this for like six months. He's from New Zealand, big guy, super awesome. He did a whole the whole barbecue thing and and he's he's an amazing chef as well.
Speaker 3:The world series of barbecues, or the world championships is, is massive. There's the hundreds and hundreds of cooks there, but they have like different sections that like there's a beef section, there's a pork section, there's a chicken section, but there's also like a vegetable section, so that it's it may sound barbecue in the beginning. It may sound for vegetarians like oh, I don't know if I want to do this, but they've got everything.
Speaker 1:So was the knuckles. Was that your very first bucket list? What was your first couple items?
Speaker 3:Oh well, the Camino that we're going to talk about is actually the item that I took on first, and a lot of that had to do with I had had it in my brain. It was the first thing that popped up and I put on my list. For about 10 or 11 years I've been thinking about doing it, so it was very important from that aspect. To that, it was like, okay, this is something I've always wanted to do. I'm going to get this done. At the same time, it's also it's a very communal activity, and so that's something that I wanted to do as well. And the final reason was probably that, if I was going to take on this lifestyle of crossing things off my bucket list, I personally needed to do something where I felt proud of myself and something that I achieved, and something that, at the end of it, I could say, okay, what's next? And that was really important for me.
Speaker 1:I guess we can just dive right into it. I have so many questions about your background too, but we'll start with going into it. From when did you do the whole thing or how was it?
Speaker 3:So, in actuality, there's about seven different routes through Spain to get to Compostela de Santiago, which is the final destination on the trip. So there's a route that goes through Portugal. There's a route that goes from Madrid to Santiago, but the most popular route and about 80% of the people that complete the trip do the Camino Frances, which starts in St Jean-Pierre-de-Port, france, and goes about 80 kilometers, or about 500 miles from France. You cross into Spain walking and you wind up in Santiago de Compostela, which is in the northwestern portion of Spain.
Speaker 2:Wait, 500 miles walking. 80% of people do that full, or they just rail and maybe they start two-thirds way.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So, to be totally upfront, 80% of the people out of those seven trails, 80% of those people do the Frances, but 80% of the people who do the Frances actually do Saria to Santiago, to Compostela, which is like five days. So the majority of the people are taking like a five-day trip, whereas you know there is a significant group of people that start in St Jean-Pierre-Deport.
Speaker 2:Okay, and do you have to be part of some kind of organized group in order to, like say, you were going to do the 500 mile one, like to to get more supplies along the way, or what did you do?
Speaker 3:The through hike and some people might start thinking, oh, it's like the Pacific coast trail or it's like the AT the Appalachian Trail, but it's not like that at all. So I saw some figure once where I think it said 75% of the Camino Frances is on pavement. So it is very much a urban trek where you're actually walking through towns about every five kilometers or so. So you're not carrying huge packs, you don't have to take a tent. You don't have to take usually you take a sleeping bag, depending on the time of the year, but basically you're just walking through these towns. It's very I don't want to say it's commercialized. I have a friend that I walked with who had done it like 25 years before and he's like, oh my gosh, it's so commercialized and I remember walking forever and never seeing anybody and this, that and the other thing. But you definitely you don't have to like carry your food. Freshwater is very readily available along the way, so it's not like you have to carry a bunch of stuff, uh, and I highly recommend that you don't carry a bunch of stuff because you're walking 15 to 20 miles a day pretty much, and some some days even longer. So so it's very easy to walk it.
Speaker 3:It is very well marked by these yellow arrows and so as you're walking, you constantly see yellow arrows painted pointing in the right direction. So you don't even really need a map. Uh per se, you can't. You can't get lost. I have a friend that got lost, but he usually got lost in the mornings, uh, when the sun wasn't shining. He would get up really super early, you know five o'clock, and start walking and I'd be like I'll, you know, I'm gonna get up at seven, i'm'm fine. But he would get up and sometimes he would get lost because he would just, in the, with no light, would get, you know, miss an arrow. But it's essentially, you can just walk him. If you follow the yellow arrows, you'll get there.
Speaker 1:So I have a huge question stepping way back what is it? Why is?
Speaker 3:it important.
Speaker 1:Why did you decide that that was your first bucket list?
Speaker 3:Okay, so the Camino de Santiago is a pilgrimage, that's traditionally a Catholic walk and Catholic pilgrimage. It was very, very popular in the middle ages as a pilgrimage for religious folks. It is said to be the French way path that they took St James's body to his burial, so that's kind of why people walk it Most people-.
Speaker 1:My parents walked it. By the way, they're very Catholic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so it has those undertones. As far as infrastructure, when franco was a dictator in spain he spent a lot of money building up the infrastructure, all because he used the catholic church as a way to kind of control the population with arts and all those kind of things and culture, and so it was definitely well maintained and built up. But it really didn't start seeing a resurgence in a lot of people until after Franco was gone, because most Americans probably didn't want to go over to Spain during Franco's reign and be there, or other nationalities. So today probably around 250,000 to 300,000 people walk it every year in some form or fashion in one of those seven routes. Wow, 250,000,.
Speaker 3:You said 250,000 to 300,000 people yeah.
Speaker 2:How do you guarantee that you're going to have a room in the town that you happen to land in? Because they don't take reservations, do they or do they?
Speaker 3:Some do, and we can talk about accommodations. The accommodations range from what they call donativos, which are donation-based, which are usually run by churches, all the way up to peridors. And if you're familiar with Spain, what Franco did was he? Spain used to be lots of different kingdoms, is he? Spain used to be lots of different kingdoms. And so when he took over and tried to consolidate everything, a lot of those palaces got turned into what they call paradors or hotels, and so the paradors.
Speaker 3:There's several paradors along the way and there's paradors all over Spain, but those range up to like $250 a night to $350 a night, so it just depends on what you want to spend on your Camino anywhere from $5 a night to $300 a night and kind of everything in between. So there's Municipals which are a little bit nicer than the Donativos and they're usually $5 to $10 a night and they are run by the state or local government, um, and they're kind of like staying in a ymca is what it's what I would say 70s and and they've kind of got kind of got that prison feel to them in my opinion.
Speaker 3:And then there's there's private albergues, which are privately owned hostels where you can go, and that's typically where I would stay. Those are usually from like $8 to $14 a night. And then they have pensions which are like an Airbnb or a bed and breakfast. Those are like $25 to $50 a night. And then they have in the larger cities real full on hotels which could be anywhere from $50 to $100 a night.
Speaker 1:And then there's tour groups too, right? I think that's what my folks did. Where you go, I want to say one to two weeks, and then they have tour groups that kind of take care of it and you just walk and then they aid you and shelter you.
Speaker 3:Yes, and you can go that route as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remembered hearing that and I guess I'd say, okay, so history and this happened. Why is it that the and maybe you said this but the pilgrimage for folks to want to do this and be so active? I think what's awesome is it's I'm a very active person and I put together trips and things. I really think it's just really cool, but it's inspired people to do this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, For me. I saw the movie the Way with Martin Sheen and Emilio Estevez, which I highly recommend to folks. I think it came out in 2011, 2010 or 2011.
Speaker 2:I don't think I saw that. I love those characters. I haven't either, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they play father and son in the movie and so and they have a few differences. But Martin Sheen's character winds up walking the Camino de Santiago and he's a bitter boomer and I don't want to give a whole lot away, but for me I love the movie and I and it gave a real sense of the community that develops, because basically on the Camino there's one route. If you're going from St Jean to Pierre de Porte, there's one route, maybe a couple off sheets if you want to take it a little different track, but everybody's. Basically if you start on the same day, you're winding up in the same place every night. So there's lots of guidebooks out there and you can do it in 30 days, you can do it in 31 days, you can do it in 35 days, you could do it in 40 if that's what it took you right, there's no prescribed way you have to do it. But the majority of people are on like a 33-day plan, 31-day plan, and so for several days in a row you may not be walking with the same people, but you're ending up in the same places every night.
Speaker 3:So for me I was lucky enough that I would wind up being in these little pot of people that someone would be the I'm making reservations for tonight, where are we going, where are we going to wind up? And we kind of built it on, so the day kind of progressed and so I would say, yeah, man, put me down. And then by the time I got I was a lot slower than most people at being 51, 52 years old, and so I would get there a couple hours after these young Italian kids would get there, but then we would all have dinner together and hang out and then wake up in the morning and have breakfast together, and then everybody kind of go on their own pace and we'd still wind up in the same city the same night. So so it was kind of a built community and the movie really showed that and I was like, oh, I want to do that.
Speaker 2:I want to, I want to perfect. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:I mean, I love that there's a movie to like, hey, this.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I mean I love that there's a movie to like. Hey, this is not enough for you. Go watch the movie to get a better feel.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes and so and so, as I was watching the movie, the interesting thing for me was that, as I was watching this movie, this whole time I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, I would do this, I would be into this, I would be. It would be cool to meet different people every day and I did and and did and, to have dinner and share bottles of wine or whatever it was at night and just really have this shared experience. But then, when it got down to the end of the movie because I wasn't really familiar with Camino when I first watched the movie the final scene is them in the cathedral in Santiago, because that's kind of where it ends and you go to the service and they walked all through that. But I grew up in Episcopalian, so I grew up in very high church, but I didn't grow up in a family where travel was a big deal. So I grew up in the Midwest Indiana and I don't think my parents really did any long distance travel until I was 18, long distance travel until I was, you know, 18, 20 years old is when I remember them. Finally, like Hawaii was a big deal. Right, to go to Hawaii was super exotic for my parents and so I didn't grow up with examples of travel where the only thing I got was I had these great aunts and great uncles that you know one of them had the Arizona Highways magazine. So like anytime I went to their house I was like flowing through these Arizona Highways, like, oh, this is beautiful, I want to go to Arizona. And then another set of great uncles that had a huge National Geographic collection and one of the things that I remember seeing in their National Geographics was this huge incense burner that was being swung through this church and people had to like there had to be like five people on the rope to kind of help swing it through. And I was just mesmerized by this, by this you know image of this huge thing.
Speaker 3:Well, it turns out you know, I'm watching this movie and boom, it's in Santiago de Compostela, it's Bartomello and they're swinging this big incense thing. And the whole thing about the incense was back in the Middle Ages. The pilgrims didn't have all the accommodations that we have today. So by the time they reached Santiago they kind of stunk, I go, they kind of stunk. And so the priest developed this huge incense burner that would ceremoniously swing throughout the whole entire church and over the pilgrims and kind of make them smell a little better. So I was watching the movie and I was just like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe I'm looking at this and seeing this. This is the thing that I was interested in or piqued my interest in. I was like I'm done, I'm doing it. I don't know when. This is the thing that you know I was interested in or piqued my interest and I was like I'm done, I'm doing it. I don't know when, I don't know how, but I'm, but I'm doing this thing.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, that's really awesome. It seems like just, uh, it's it is. It's hit to your core right About what you really and and I got to this I turned 50 this year and it was like, okay, I've got, I'm halfway through my life. You know, I, I'm, I'm shooting for a hundred. So I got another lifetime and now we're where we're at worse. You know we're, we're not zero, so we can think ourselves. So what is that? To be able to really create that and live it intentionally, which I love. When you said set an intention, I think that's huge. I tried to do the same and I love, I love what you said and I forgot, I highlighted, and I forgot to ask you what's your tattoos on your knuckles?
Speaker 3:Says do no harm.
Speaker 1:Uh, that's awesome, and and what made you pick? Do no harm.
Speaker 3:Because I knew it would be bad-ass, and but I also wanted it to be peaceful. So, um yeah, that's something that I've always kind of tried to keep in my head of you know, do no harm. Wherever you go, whatever, whatever you're involved in, just try to do no harm.
Speaker 2:So now you can never punch anyone in the face.
Speaker 3:It is a self-restraint for sure.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great. So what? How did you go about setting up this trip? What was the process like when you were? You know, just Google it and check and find one that you felt was good?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, I went through a very you know what I call doom spiral through YouTube where I would just constantly watch, just let the YouTube roll and pick the next video and just watch tons of videos on YouTube about the Camino. And then I originally bought a guidebook and kind of tried to map it out and look at it and see what was going on. And you know, in 2020, probably around August when I felt like I just, you know, I needed something, like a lot of people, I needed something to look forward to, right, it's like what do I need to look forward to? And so I went to my partner and told her that you know, I'm going to go do this next year. And she's like, well, that's my 50th birthday, well, you're going to be gone over my 50th birthday. And so we kind of worked through this process that I kind of wanted to do the Camino by myself, alone, like by myself, experience it by myself, and not that you're ever alone on the Camino, experience it by myself, and not that you're ever alone on the Camino. And she was like, well, I want to go to Spain, but I don't want to do the Camino.
Speaker 3:So she set up a 50th birthday trip, for a solo trip for herself, where she went to Seville and Barcelona and Madrid, and she did all the Southern stuff. And I said, well, you know, if you're going to be there and I'm going to be there, why don't you just join me for those last five days? So she did the section from Saria to Santiago with me. We met up and that Christmas I bought bracelets that had the coordinates, the longitudinal latitude for Sariaia on them, so we wore them before then and we wore them while we were out there to remind each other, uh, that we were gonna meet.
Speaker 3:And we booked hotels and, uh, pensions those last five days. So she's not the kind that would be like, oh, let's, you know, sleep in bunk beds with 30 other people around us. That really wasn't her gig. And so we booked those and then, in the middle of a pandemic, booked my flights to Spain when Spain was closed, I mean, at the time when I booked the flights, which made them very cheap, which was great. But, yeah, up until about two and a half months before I left, I didn't know if I was going to be able to go.
Speaker 3:I mean it wasn't about two and a half months earlier than I had scheduled to be able to go that Spain finally said yeah, people can come. So it was every day waking up, going okay, what's the deal with you, what's going on, what are the requirements? And I was in a position, especially at that point after the heart attack, I'm like, whatever it takes, I'll do whatever it takes, and if I can't go I'll just bump the ticket down the line until I can. But it was just, you know, I want to get this done. So there were a few things that there were a few places that I booked ahead of time. I booked my first night in St Jean-Pierre-de-Port so that I knew I'd have someplace. My second night, in Rancevalse, I definitely wanted to book because it was a very special hostel that used to be a hospital for pilgrims, because when you get to Roncesvalles you've walked over the Pyrenees, essentially from.
Speaker 3:France into Spain, and it's a rough day, it's not an easy walk, and so I booked that and maybe a couple of other special places that I wanted to stay ahead of time. But besides that, I didn't know where I was going to eat. Didn that it was, you know, I didn't know where I was going to eat, didn't know where I was going to sleep, didn't know, you know. And I have Isn't that fun. Oh it is, it's totally I loved it.
Speaker 1:I'm in there.
Speaker 3:I absolutely loved it, you know, Except Mondays. For some bizarre reason, lots of things are closed in Spain on Mondays. I don't really understand it or what the purpose is. So those days were kind of rough. I mean, the hostels are open, the accommodations are open, but sometimes in the middle of the day it's kind of hard to find a sandwich. So, but yeah, for the most part I just went.
Speaker 3:I wound up my first night in Roncesvalles. I'm from Seattle and I met a guy from Walla Walla Washington that was walking, and we wound up together and becoming friends for five, 10 days and just met a bunch of other people. And I was talking to a student of mine before I left and she said, oh, I could never do that. And I said, why not? And she goes because I don't think I can get anybody else to do it with me. And I said, well, I don't know anybody I'm doing it with, yet I just haven't met them. And that's really the kind of mindset you have to go into. So many times I hear women talk about the fact that, oh, I don't want to go solo and I, you know, and it's like you're not, you're not going solo. You know, you can definitely have solo time on the Camino.
Speaker 3:Yeah, most days I would wake up six, 6.30, start walking around 7 and I'd be alone because almost everybody else would be gone for the day. But I was on the late. You have to be out, I think, by nine o'clock. I think you have to be out of the albergues. But I would walk most of the mornings by myself but wind up hitting second what we call second breakfast or lunch. I'd wind up in the same town as second what we call second breakfast or lunch. You know I've wind up in the same town as other people and then you'd walk with them the rest of the distance. So I had my alone time but I also had time together with people.
Speaker 2:To put this in perspective, I remember we went to Disney world and we'd look how many miles and we would put on like 12 miles a day, you know, and we were beat by the end of the day and so like doing that for like 30 days in a row.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the thing is that your body gets accustomed to it.
Speaker 3:You know, people talk about how do you train, what do you do? I was probably up to nine miles a day before I left. That was about it and you, just your body just comes accustomed to it and there's different terrains. So they talk about there's three sections of the Camino and one of them is very flat. It's extremely flat. It's very arid, like you see sunflowers all day long, cause that's all that you know. I went in August, so I saw sunflowers all day long, that's all that you know.
Speaker 2:I went in august, so I saw sunflowers all day long, huge field, yeah and and but that was.
Speaker 3:Those days were like super flat and it was more towards the end of the trip. So by the time I got there it was like, oh, this is nothing you know, and you just, you know, your body just gets accustomed to it. When you go to disney world you're going from you know the day before you're going from you from not doing anything to going to Disney World and doing 12 miles, right, but if every day you're doing that, your body just adjusts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when's the best time to go?
Speaker 3:The great thing about the Camino and if you ever do the Camino and I'm sure your parents, kristen, have said this, it's your Camino. I'm sure your parents, you know, kristen, have said this it's your Camino, right, and you can do it any way you want to, any time you want to, as fast, as slow as you want to. So it's hard for me. I have a friend that I met on the Camino, that she is Spanish and she does it every couple of years and she loves to do it in the winter. There's no way I would do that in the winter, you know. And she loves to do it in the winter. There's no way I would do that in the winter, you know. And she just, she just proclaims to love it that it's the the coolest thing in the world to do during the winter and I'm just like no way, no way did she say why?
Speaker 3:um, it's a lot of it has to do. Yeah, a lot of it has to do with you know less people, um, but she just, she just loves winter and looking at you know the, the mountains with snow on them and the fields with snow on them, and it's just kind of, you know, she just enjoys that, you know. So it's like, all right, more power to you, but I ain't doing that is it snowing where she's?
Speaker 1:when you're walking, is it like you're?
Speaker 3:you're in snow yeah, the first part of the camino, like the first week and a half in the last week and a half, you're going to wind up being someplace where the conditions are very much akin to what I would say like the Pacific Northwest, like a very much when my partner and I were walking be as much snow, but it's very lush. It's not easy. Some people, some through hikers, are like oh, camino, it's nothing, it's no big deal. There's some like 5,000 feet elevation gains a day on the Camino.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, there's not a lot of pictures. There's flat and then I'm seeing mountains and I mean it's it's a long track too, for sure. So I was curious like and then also, do people need to accommodate for that? I guess it just depends, like I'm sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it depends yeah, for for me it's like I took a rain jacket. I think I used it twice. There wasn't a lot of rain when we did it, it was very, very hot. I did it for the whole month of August in 2021. And it was super hot. I mean, I think we had days that like the ranges of temperatures 120?. Yeah, 120. The second half of it was pretty brutal weather-wise, but it's you know, and you just walk and find shade as you walk and take breaks.
Speaker 1:I don't see a lot of shade in the pictures, yeah.
Speaker 3:There was a couple days there was nothing. There was one section of the dry part where they actually have planted trees to kind of help pilgrims along the whole path and you find shade and you take a rest and you take a break and you drink a bunch of water and you're good.
Speaker 1:So I was curious what's the best temperature? What time of year is it kind of like ours, where it's fall time or spring time?
Speaker 3:So fall, you're going to run into some good amount of rain. When you get towards the end, when you start getting closer to Santiago, Like I said, it's a lot like the conditions are a lot like the Pacific Northwest, so you're going to see a lot of rain. October, September, start seeing snow in November, Probably one. I mean, if I had to guess, because I've only done it once brutal temperatures. If I were to go back and do it, I'd probably do it probably May, June, July, sometime would probably be pretty decent the whole way through.
Speaker 1:But I see this picture of it and they've got this rock structure.
Speaker 3:It looks almost like a shell, a yellow shell that's sideways or so, yeah, so the the mythology behind it is is that at one point, uh, saint james, I think, his casket got dumped in the ocean or something by mistake and scallop shells kind of formed around the coffin is kind of what it is. So, as in saint jean de port, when you, uh, pied de port, when you show up, there's a pilgrim office, uh, that's run by volunteers and you can get a shell, scallop shell, which is a sign that you're a pilgrim. So you attach it to your backpack and you see shells you know those all over the. And then you also, at the pilgrim office, pick up kind of it's. They call them their credentials. It's kind of like a little passport and it's and it shows that you're a pilgrim. So that's what allows you to stay in the municipals, the, the Don Tibos and the private albergues. If you don't have that passport, you can't stay because they are giving you such cheap price, um passport, you can't stay because they are giving you such a cheap price that you can't have to show them that. And then, everywhere you go and you eat and sleep, they stamp the book.
Speaker 3:When you get to Santiago de Compostela, there's another pilgrim office where you don't turn in, but you show it to them and they count up all the stamps to decide if you've walked long enough to actually get a certificate of completion. So you have to either walk 100 kilometers or bike ride a horse 200 kilometers, because you can do both those things as well. Lots of bike tours do it and they especially if you're athletic and you don't have a lot of time, you can cut the. You cut the whole trip down to like two weeks if you want to on a bike. So when you get to compostela, you get that. You get the certificate of completion.
Speaker 3:There's a couple different kinds. They're different costs. Um, some of them say how many miles you've walked. Some of them just say you've completed it. So, yeah, so, but you have to at least walk 100 kilometers. That's why saria is so much of a destination, starting point, because people can start in saria. I think it's about 117 kilometers to to santiago from there, and so my partner got a certificate of completion, just like I did. You know she started in saria and uh, and so that they ask you, I think, why you walked, whether it was religious reasons, if you're Catholic, spiritual reasons, if you're just a spiritual person, or for health, physical reasons. So those are kind of the main three reasons why people do it.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. What was your favorite parts of walking visually or whatever it is and why?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean because I'm so communal, like it was. You know, it was nighttime. It was going into the different plazas sitting down with 15, 20 people ordering food, ordering drinks, and just hanging out and talking. People ordering food, ordering drinks, and just hanging out and talking, and sometimes that meant I didn't know what was being said at all.
Speaker 3:I have a time I hooked up with these Italian university students for several days and there were about 15 or 16 of them and I would just sit there and just feeling like, oh my gosh, they're arguing with each other, there's a fight that's going to break out and it's like, nope, they're just Italians and that's just the way they communicate, really is true. And but I wouldn't know what was going on. I actually sent a selfie with with a bunch of them to my work partner and we we worked high school students at the time and she was like you're not supposed to be working, you're supposed to be on vacation. And I said, oh, I love this. I have no idea what they're saying and I'm having a ball, so you don't have to worry about me working. Because most of them spoke English and would have conversations, but when they started talking to each other, it was like I don't know what's going on, but it seems like fun.
Speaker 1:What do you do professionally?
Speaker 3:Right now I'm a professional podcaster, that's awesome.
Speaker 3:So that's what I'm doing right now. After I got back from the Camino, I went into my office where I worked and talked to someone that I'd worked with for about four and a half years. He was a good friend and she said how was your trip? And I showed her this reel I had made with just selfies of all the people I had met along the way, and when she was done watching it, she was like I've never seen you that happy. And that hit me two different ways, like in one way it's like oh, I'm so glad she saw I'm glad that came out in the pictures, that she saw that right, that she saw that I was happy. And then, at the same time, I was like, oh my gosh, in four and a half years this person has never seen me that happy.
Speaker 3:And so, like a month later, I quit my job and I took an adult gap year and just took the year off and said I'm only going to do things that bring me joy. I'm going to use my own labor for myself and not for somebody else, and I'm just going to see what the world has for me. And so I started my podcast that you all talked about at the beginning, the Crossing it Off podcast, and I don't know when this drops. But I'm launching another podcast in a week with my partner and I've got a third podcast that's going to come out in in July or July or August of this year. So I'm just making those two very different from the other one.
Speaker 3:The one that drops next week is called call the binge wife, and it's just my partner and I talking about what we binge watch on on TV. And then the third one is called Bring it In Bro, and it's a interview show of me and people I know, specifically guys talking about what is modern masculinity and what that looks like.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's really cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always have my husband on that one. He's always talking and debating about that topic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's going to be a little raunchy, but Well, even for teenage boys, like I've got a 15 year old boy and we're at wit's end, like we're battling. I mean you know we battle on and off. We have a very good relationship, but you know there's things that need to be done and got to go past school, yeah, yeah, things that need to be done and ask school.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, my whole goal with that show is just to have real honest conversations. So the first episode I've already I've already recorded and it's with my best friend of 35 plus years and we talk about he's comes from a military background and we talk about him and his dad's relationship and when you know, what was it like saying I love you to your dad in that context, and me doing that as well I lost my dad last year and then we moved to he and I telling each other we love each other and what that was like and our first memories of that and how that affected our relationship being able to be in a place to be able to do that with one another.
Speaker 1:So all with a lot of humor and dude stuff. That's awesome. I think it's going to do very, very well. I already know several people I'll be. It could either be guests or definitely. Yeah, oh my gosh For sure. Oh, my gosh for sure. So, going back to the Camino de Santiago, did, did it fulfill you as much as you said, or you thought it would, and sound well, of course it did because you got back obviously right yeah, I think there's two things about that, you know like.
Speaker 3:So, like I said in the beginning, you know my intention for my bucket list is community, whether that's growing existing community or fostering new community for myself, and so, from that perspective, the Camino was a home run. When I took my adult gap year, I did a three-month trip through Costa Rica, parts of Europe and Israel, and the itinerary for that trip was really designed around being able to see people that I met on the Camino. I went to Israel for three and a half days or something like that, and it was just to be able to visit a friend that I met on the Camino. Costa Rica was a detour that my partner and I took together and then she came home, but we went there to crash somebody's wedding that I had met on my walk. So, yeah, it really affected it from that standpoint.
Speaker 3:So many people do the Camino and they're like they just throw themselves into it, and I know people that, like, every year, they go and do it, like they're so passionate about it, and there's lots of great reasons for people to get to that point. When I got to that final plaza in Compostela, standing there looking up at the spires of this huge cathedral and, knowing that I had done it, my heart just kept on saying what's next? What's next? Would I do the Camino again? If somebody I loved and cared about said hey, I want to have that experience, will you go with me? I'd be like, yeah, I'll go for the first three or four days, get you started and then push you on your own.
Speaker 3:My partners talked about there's a Portugal route that kind of goes along the beach. I love that. Yeah. My partner's like I kind of like to do the Portugal route and I'm like okay, I would go do that with you, but I have no burning desire like some people. I'm going to go back and do it. I'm going to go back and do it. I have so much other stuff on my list that I just want to experience as much as I can of what the world has. I think people should, if they have any inclination to go, do the Camino. They should. It is, you can make it as cheap as you want, it's easy to navigate, it's you know, it's. You won't be doing it alone, even though you may not know people when you go, but it's, it's worth kind of doing.
Speaker 2:And so when you get that passport you need to just you just show up in that town and you go and get it, or do you have to, like, apply ahead of time?
Speaker 3:oh no, you just show up. It's like a five dollar donation or something for the passport and your and your shell I'm. I'm sure there's offices at the starting points of the in the cities, as the other routes as well probably have a thing. There are pilgrim communities around. We have one in the United States that you can join. They have them because it's not really like an official document, it's just like someplace to collect the stamps.
Speaker 3:So actually, while I was walking, this company started following me on Instagram and when my partner got to Serea, they had dropped off passports for us that like they look like passports, like and so it has. Like it had our picture in it, it had where we were from, which route we were taking, like it had all this page and like all the official information. I think they're like $35 a piece or something like that, but it looked like a passport. So that's what we use, that last portion of our, of our trip. Yeah, you just show up and kind of register and they take down all the information, uh, and then they send that off to the, the passport office in in Compostela so they can kind of see okay, people started finished. Where did people start from all that kind of stuff so that there's good data on the internet where you can go to some websites and really find, see, you know what percentage of people that walk the Camino are from Japan and you know wherever you're from how many people completed. All that kind of stuff is available.
Speaker 1:What company followed you on Instagram?
Speaker 3:Oh shoot, it was, it was, that's what they did. Is they made these passports?
Speaker 3:yeah, that's all they did yeah they're like like they started following me because I, you know, used hashtags and they started following me and they're like hey, we'd love to give you some. And so I made a, we made videos and they were in a carousel and stuff to kind of show. They're really cool because they had, they came with like a blacklight flashlight that if you go over the paper of the passport, there's like these beautiful pictures of the different places along the Camino and stuff. So they're really pretty. So you can go like those are $35 a piece or you can, you know, show up at the pilgrim office and throw in a couple of dollar donation and get the regular one.
Speaker 3:So there's all different ways to get your credentials.
Speaker 1:And how many days did you spend again in total on doing this? Oh geez.
Speaker 3:So there's the plan, and then there's the actual.
Speaker 1:What was the plan and what was the actual?
Speaker 3:The plan was 29 days, I think, and I think it wound up being like 31.
Speaker 1:And then you did nine, nine miles a day.
Speaker 3:Oh no, we were doing between 15 and 22.
Speaker 1:Oh, God, okay, got it A lot of miles. Okay, did you stay on route? Did you stay or did you go off route?
Speaker 3:There's only one detour that I took. There was I had an extra day because I was meeting my partner on a certain day. She was traveling, and so so we had to. I had to be there on a certain day and but I had some extra time, so I took a. I took a half day and wound up taking a detour to this monastery. That was really old.
Speaker 3:That was when I was departing from my friends that I was walking with at that point, because our days were going to be separate. We weren't going to wind up being in the same place, and so I was like I'm a day out from meeting my partner, I'm just going to take a day of silence. I'm not going to talk to anybody or speak to anybody, and I'm going to go to this monastery and go to the service that night, and and then after the service, I'll break my my silence. But uh, so I walk into the town and I forget the name of it right now I will. I walked into the town and, like three or four of the people the americans I've been walking with for the past week and a half were there as well. I thought they'd be long gone, but they were there, and so we wound up playing charades for about two hours and they were not. They were not good at it. It was very frustrating.
Speaker 2:Oh, so it's kind of something like you disconnected Is it a lot of people disconnected? Or like people on their phone? Is there internet access for people that it's important to them?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, you know, once you get into town and you're kind of settled like all the hostels, nobergis had internet access. There was always some wi-fi somewhere. I use t-mobile, so I will, you know, I pretty much, since t-mobile is a german company and in europe I didn't have any problems. I didn't get buy an extra sim card. Some people do that.
Speaker 3:It is helpful to have the internet, especially in the morning when you're trying to make plans. You know for where you're staying that night. But as far as, like you know, every once in a while I might stop and say how far away am I? This day needs to be over, you know, so check to see how far away I was from where I needed to be. But for the most part, you know.
Speaker 3:If you're a big music listener, that may be something that's important to you, but for me I didn't use my phone all that much, but I would post every morning and every night before I went to bed. You know, for people that were following me on Instagram and Facebook. But there was also a good use for key, because most Europeans use WhatsApp, so so there was a lot of WhatsApp. You know, somebody would say, hey, when you go through this town. There's a great sandwich shop right here. You got to stop there, that kind of thing, but but for the most part, you know, I didn't see people walking, walking with their phones, using them like you, like you would around here my friend's in thailand right now.
Speaker 2:He's like when we go to the big cities, it's just like influencer, it's just bizarre.
Speaker 3:Yes, there's a there's a statistic, carol, that I read the other day that said 65 of millennials would not travel to a certain, any certain destination if they knew they could not post about it on Instagram. That's awful. I don't want to say it's awful, I don't think it's, I don't think it's good for sure yeah. But yeah, that was this. That was this bizarre statistic that, like 65% of millennials, wouldn't travel to any destination if they knew they couldn't post about it.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:No backcountry camping cinema exactly well, you can take pictures and then post it when you get back into town, I guess, or something like that right where there's a will, there's an influencer absolutely. And then what's the cost? What was the cost and budget for the total trip? Like if someone wanted to do this? What should they anticipate?
Speaker 3:it all depends on who you are, what you're coming I met this curious for you, but yeah for me, I think. For me, I think I budgeted like 65 a day. I think is what I budgeted. That was outside of actual airfare yeah okay and then but hotels and stuff.
Speaker 1:So is that including everything? So yeah and how much did you spend for the?
Speaker 3:month. See, that's budget versus actual.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can talk budget and actual.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think. I think with airfare I think I spent close to five grand.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:Forty five, forty five hundred to five thousand.
Speaker 1:Okay, no, that's just helpful, just for folks. And then I I know I'm seeing your great picture was water pretty available and oh, yes, okay, so every most most, most big cities, there would be water.
Speaker 3:Uh, there'd actually be like fountains that had drinking, that were potable drinking water fountains, and you could fill up your hydration, your camel pack or whatever. You're using your bottle or whatever. And then there's always some place to buy a bottle of water, usually in the morning at the cafe or the bar that they would have water for you to be able to take with you.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then you also said something that Monday there's not really places that are open.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm pretty sure Monday was rough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what did you do? Or what do they recommend Now, knowing that, what would you do differently?
Speaker 3:I would either go to a grocery store the night before and get some stuff or I would just go to a local sandwich shop. The big thing, you know, there's like three basic things you eat while you're on the Camino. One is jamon, which is like the uncured Spanish ham sandwiches, and there I will warn people, they don't run it through the garden like they do at Subway. You actually get a baguette with jamon and that's it, like there's no sauce, there's no butter, there's no mayonnaise and it's not available. So you get used to kind of eating uh the sly. The other item that I actually fell in love with was the spanish tortilla, which some people call spanish omelet, which is kind of like a cheese case thickness, you know, omelet type, and it has lots of different ingredients and different places do it different ways.
Speaker 3:I love Pamplona, spain, because Spanish tortillas are the best. They do really wild and crazy things. They have some that have octopus on the top and stuff. So that was usually a second breakfast. Carol's not digging the octopus, I get you. I understand they prepare it really, really well, but anyways. But yeah, in Pampalona they had like, just you know, it would have ham in it Sometimes. Usually it just has potatoes and sometimes cheese and egg. But in some places they get fancy with it and so I fell in love with Spanish omelet. But the last thing is the popo, it's the octopus. The last thing is the popo, it's the octopus. They do a really good job because they actually braise it before they kind of fry it up, and they do a good job of cutting it. They just do it better. If you're there, you have to do it at least once. I think you call it popo, popo, yeah.
Speaker 3:Popo yeah, yeah. So and the other really good thing about food is that if you have that passport and you're going to restaurants, some restaurants, a lot of the restaurants, have what they call pilgrim's meal, which is where it's usually like eight to $10. It's usually three or four courses and they have a couple of different options for you to choose from off that menu. But it's standard. It doesn't really change. So there's either like a fish or a chicken and a salad, and you know, and you just say I need to see the Pilgrim's Menu, and some of them are fancy and have lots of options, but it's supposed to be a cheap meal, anywhere from $5 to $10 for you to get. So it's, you know it's, it was. It was a lot of fun and the food was good. And you know, like I said, I fell in love with spanish omelet and then still today trying to figure out how to make them.
Speaker 2:so that's awesome.
Speaker 3:Any like fresh produce, like fruits and vegetables, and yeah, yeah, you can yeah, and but and again, it's all depending on how you want to do it right like I met.
Speaker 3:I met a couple that, like they, were staying in those pair doors like $350 a night, every night, having, you know, four course meals and five course meals. And then when I was with the Italian students, they would like go to the grocery store. You know that's what they did. They didn't go out to eat, they just went to the grocery store, bought what they needed shared. You know, bought what they needed shared. They'd splurge and buy a $2 bottle of wine and spend like $5 on food for the night for themselves. So it just depends. Sometimes they would share it and sometimes when you stay at the Nanotivos, they have meals where it's a family style meal and everybody shares. And so it just really depends on how you want to do it and the experiences that you want to have and sometimes kind of the rut you get into while you're going.
Speaker 1:That's awesome and meal length. I remember going when I was in Spain or other places versus sitting down here. You know it's kind of eat and go.
Speaker 3:I'm assuming it's not the eat and go when you're over there as an American, you have to get adjusted to the fact that you may only see your server once or twice a night for two or three hours. Yeah yeah, you know, in the morning it was kind of grab and go, no-transcript, and you know. And then a couple hours later, noon to one, you'd find a sandwich shop and get a baguette with ham and, you know, ham on it. And then at dinnertime, you know, I would kind of splurge and sometimes they'd have pizza and sometimes they have pasta and sometimes they have popo and you know, you just kind of, you know, depends on where everybody sits down to eat that night. But definitely you have to get used to not tipping. And the other thing about the Camino which was a little distressing for me the first week which I didn't understand, was that there's one check and you can't get away from it. So if you're sitting at a table with 15 people, one check is coming and there is no. You had this, you had that, it's. You know we cut it 15 ways and so for me, a non-drinker, that was rough. So I actually had to get away from a group that they would drink for two or three hours a night. You know they would stumble back to the, to the albergue um most nights and I had to kind of ease my way away from them just for the pure fact that I'm like I'm paying 10, 12 euros for, you know, $5 worth of food and drink that I actually had. It was interesting One night my one of my Spanish friends like you don't drink.
Speaker 3:And I'm like no, I don't drink. And he's like is there any reason? I'm like nope, just don't drink. He goes I have something for you. And he ordered me a Cali Mocho and they brought me this glass and it looked like red wine. He goes you're going to like it. I know you're going to like it. And so I drank it and I did, I loved it. It's 50% red wine and 50% Coca-Cola and it was no, it was absolutely awesome If you drink. If you drink, coke is absolutely awesome, I loved it. I. You know a Cali mocho. You can get in some trouble because it depends on how, because they usually use their house wine. So it depends on how good the house wine is where you're at, and so I usually ask my friends who are drinking the house wine how's that house wine decide whether I wanted to order one or not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Cali Mocho.
Speaker 1:Oh, that sounds so fun and I was curious also just how cool this, what you have created, is. What so many people? I think this will not only be a pilgrimage episode.
Speaker 1:What so many people, I think this will not only be a pilgrimage episode but in so many ways, not only just to do the pilgrimage, but your life and what you, what you, your intentions and what you're going to stir up for a lot of folks and I know Carol and I also have talked a lot about our futures and what we want We've got. You know, teenage and college age they're still kind of we still need to be.
Speaker 1:But we've talked about what what this podcast could create for us and what we'd like to do. And I'm curious also oh, you said you've got younger kids too, two kids.
Speaker 3:I have three children and their ages are 30, 28 and 25.
Speaker 1:Oh, there you're at.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I am luckily past that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then how was it transitioning from a full-time job, cutting it off? And then how are you making your funds work with what you're doing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, my first year, I just emptied the retirement fund. It's just like. This is what I'm doing. I spent you Well, my first year. I just emptied the retirement fund.
Speaker 3:This is what I'm doing. Like I said, I spent three months in Europe and so that was not cheap but not expensive, and I made that an intention to say I can't take it with me. My kids are going to be fine for other reasons, and so I just had to do it. Recently I did take on a part-time job substitute teaching but in my area it pays extremely well. Most people are shocked how well it pays, and so I do that like two, three times a week, and then I do my other stuff for me, and it's a matter of keeping your life small, right? I mean, I think I'm able to do that. I have a super gracious partner who does support me in several different ways, but at the same time, I've kept my life pretty small.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the wrong word, I think. Right, you're keeping your budget small so that you can live this extravagant, awesome life, right?
Speaker 3:And and, but that comes in spurts, right? I don't want people to think that I'm constantly on the move and I'm constantly traveling and doing all these things. You know that goes back to our influencer. You know comments from before. I don't. I want to influence people, but I don't want to be an influencer. So so you know I I'm not about honeypot destination IG photos Um, sometimes that, sometimes that happens because of where I'm traveling.
Speaker 3:But again it goes back to saying that attention, why are you doing this? Are you, are you creating a bucket list lifestyle so you can keep up with the Joneses and cross those honeypot destinations off your to-do list, or do you have an intention of why this is important and valuable to you? How is it going to affect you internally and transform you as a human being to be out doing these things? And so that's what's really important to me, and that influence that I have is growing, but it's going to take time, because I don't have pictures of me in a hot air balloon over Cappadocia and I don't have a picture of me standing at the top of Machu Picchu and those things that a lot of, especially on social media, attracts people, because I'm sitting here saying you know what? I have learning the ukulele on my bucket list and I'm practicing three or four hours a week, and that's valuable. I have friends that I haven't talked to in a long time, that I want to reconnect with, and that's valuable. I have places I want to volunteer, and that's valuable. And I think that the interesting thing about the bucket list is that it was not a thing until 2007 when that movie came out. It was not a thing until 2007, when that movie came out. There is no mention of a bucket list in the English lexicon before 2007, when that movie came out.
Speaker 1:Really, because I've heard it.
Speaker 3:Yes, I promise you, I promise you, I promise you. People have done research.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I honestly, I have talked about a bucket list and talked in the 90s with people about it, but I mean, it was just kind of, but maybe it was.
Speaker 1:You're California like, and talked in the 90s with people about it, but but I mean it was just kind of, but maybe it was. You're california, you're cutting edge. You may have talked I'm telling you it's if I did it in 2002 that I went to costa rica for a month and I was like I'm a bucket list, I mean. So I remember talking about it, but interesting that you're saying that it's. You know, maybe that's when it was recognized, or maybe I could have something else I don't know.
Speaker 3:There's this thing called the Mandela effect. Have you ever heard of the Mandela effect?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 3:Okay, a Mandela effect stems from the fact that there's a huge amount of group of people that think Nelson Mandela died in the 90s, when in fact in jail, when in fact he got out of jail, became president of South Africa, made a huge impact and died much later than that, and they call it the Mandela effect, where a group of people kind of all have the same idea or thought. But it's wrong, but because they all have it that they all think it, and I have this argument with my best buddy all the time, and so if you go online and search Mandela effects, you can find lots of different ones, and a bucket list is one of those things. There is no mention of the term bucket list.
Speaker 3:Now, people may have had things they wanted to do before they kicked the bucket or died or passed away or had a list of things they didn't want to regret or something, but actually calling it a bucket list that terminology does not exist in the english lexan, anywhere on the internet or anywhere in any book before 2007, and so I think a lot of times people look at that movie as like the starting point, like the big bang of bucket list. Yeah, and, and what they remember from that movie is them taking all these crazy adventures and going on all these crazy trips. But the reality, if you go back and watch that movie, the thing that both those characters decided was the most important thing in their life that they could have on their bucket list is fixing the relationships they have with their families.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, no, that's really awesome. I think it's just amazing what you've created. I know time-wise, I know we have to wrap it up and I don't want to. We can talk another hour. For sure, I love what you've created and done. I was curious if there was anything you would like to share, any ahas that you would share with someone who wants to do it, and then also where people can listen to your podcast and reach out.
Speaker 3:So the funny thing is, I ask people the same question on my Crossing it Off podcast. Yeah Well, you tell somebody and however it turns out is how it's supposed to. So many times we think that things have to be done a certain way. They have to, you know. The outcome has to be this. The outcome has to be that. You know, I'll tell you a secret. There were a couple of days I didn't walk and took taxis because I had massive, you know, shin problems. I took a taxi, right, and it's okay, right. There are some purists that are like you didn't really do the Camino, it's like I think I did.
Speaker 1:That's all that matters is what you think and your journey.
Speaker 3:If you're going to do it, besides saying, just do it, because I think you know, if you have an inclination to do it, you should, just as you're doing it. It is your Camino and however it works out for you is the way it was supposed to, and not to worry about trying to meet somebody else's expectations of what your Camino should be. It's your Camino and for me. You can go to crossingitoffcom where you can hear episodes of the story, you can learn how you can work with me directly as a mentor and you can find my book, live out your list, finding joy through a bucket list, lifestyle links to that, and awesome to meet you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you as well.
Speaker 3:Thanks Kristen, thanks Carol. If there's anything I can do for you, let me know.
Speaker 1:Okay, for sure, you are Absolutely Okay. Thanks, roger.
Speaker 3:Thanks.
Speaker 2:Bye. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the podcast, can you please take a second and do a quick follow of the show and rate us in your podcast app, and if you have a minute, we would really appreciate a review. Following and rating is the best way to support us. If you're on Instagram, let's connect. We're at where next podcast. Thanks again.
