E8 | Whine and Dine is coming to Rochester!! | Keith Bogen on HR.Salon Podcast

In this fun and insightful episode of HR Salon, host Andrew Biernat sits down with longtime HR leader and founder of Whine and Dine Networking, Keith Bogen, to talk about why real human connection still matters—and why Rochester is the next city to get its own Whine and Dine chapter.

With 23 years of building connections across 19 cities, Keith has turned “networking” into something far more meaningful: making friends, sharing stories, and building community that lasts. Together, Andrew and Keith explore the lost art of conversation in an age when networking too often feels forced or self‑serving—and how to bring warmth, humor, and genuine generosity back to it.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why Whine and Dine Networking is all about community, not contacts
• How fewer rules and more laughter create authentic connection
• The secret to making people remember you long after the event
• Why Keith says “the value of knowing me is knowing who I know”
• How servant leadership strengthens relationships inside and outside of work
• What genuine generosity can do for your career and well‑being
• How to build your personal brand without a 30‑second elevator pitch
• Why in‑person connection still beats any digital alternative
• How storytelling and humility attract better opportunities
• The one daily question that keeps Keith focused on helping others

As Whine and Dine Rochester launches, this episode is both an invitation and a reminder: real success starts with a smile, a story, and a shared glass of something good.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Welcome to the show. Today I'm joined by Keith Bogan. He's a longtime senior level HR practitioner and founder of Wine and Dine Networking. Keith, welcome to the show. Thank you, sir. It's good to be here. Oh man, absolutely fantastic. Keith and I got connected through someone I met who lives in New Jersey, and he was talking, he was really just ranting and raving in a positive way about this networking event that he loves to go to called Wine and Dine. And for those listening, we're gonna we're gonna kind of explore that today. But our our main topic is gonna be networking, connecting, branding yourself, how you show up in the world, and how people think of you and connect with you. And and so that as our our backdrop, Keith. Um, maybe give us a little bit of background. Obviously, networking is something that you do a lot of, um, but maybe talk us through just a touch of your career and and why networking is so important for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

So uh I've been doing this a lot longer than I would like to admit, but me and Abe Lincoln, we started an HR a while back. Um I am your prototypical senior-level HR business partner at the director level. Uh, and when I brand myself, I talk about I only use four words. I talk about employee engagement and global communications. And in order to brand myself, I stop right there. No 30-second pitches, no 60, no two minutes, none of that stuff, no, none of the elevator stuff. The less I say, the more people are going to remember. And that's a really important thing when it comes to getting people to remember you when the time is right, whether you're looking for a job or you're just out there in the community. I I do it because I want people to know what I'm good at, so they'll call me when they need help. I like to help other people. Uh I've been doing the HR thing a little bit longer than I've been doing the uh networking thing. Although, I mean, realistically speaking, I think I was networking when I came out of the womb. But uh I I just didn't call it that until uh now the the organization I run is uh 23 years old, so we've been doing it a long time now.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Yeah, I think you you and I are are similar in that we're we're both networkers, we both meet a ton of people. It sounds like you've been a connector and someone that has uh you know embraced that lifestyle for a long time. For me, I came to it later in life. I was a very quiet kid, would prefer reading to hanging out with people. And it wasn't until I started getting more into my teenage years that kind of felt some of that like FOMO, right? That like I just felt kind of left out, felt like I didn't have a whole lot of friends. And I was like, man, well, what are like what do I gotta do to be to have more friends, like to be more popular, right? Like at the time, Paul popularity, right? That was the most important thing. Thankfully, as I've grown on the journey, it's it's no longer about popularity, it's about it's about connection, it's about helping people, it's about adding value and and understanding others. And and I think as as part of that, I've had to grow and change so much in order to be a better networker. And and I think the best networkers, I don't think they're necessarily born that way. I think maybe they've got a proclivity to it, and then it's just something they keep doubling down on, they keep getting better at. So I guess when I when it comes to networking, Keith, maybe kind of bring me into some of the baseline, some of your kind of philosophy around it. Why why do you use the word networking, but also what does it mean to you? How do you how do you prefer to go about it?

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Well, as we said uh in the moments before we hit the record button, how many hours do we have? Because there's just so much to talk about. Um, I was raised in a family uh where we weren't using the term servant leadership, but that's how my parents behaved. Uh it was always about, you know, my my father was a fairly successful businessman, but he was also the president of the PTA. Uh and he ran one of the political parties in my town. I won't say which one, we don't want to talk about that stuff. Um, but he uh he had an arrangement in this a long time ago with the local newspaper reporters, never take my picture. It's not about me, it's about the candidates, it's about the platform, it's about what we can do for the community. So my father never appeared in the newspaper in uh you know, image. They would write his name occasionally, but they would never use his picture because they would, you know, he was very adamant about that. He was always serving other people. So I didn't know it at the time, but I was raised in that kind of environment. Interestingly enough, I was, and this doesn't come as a surprise to any of my friends, a total nerd. I was like the school nerd when I was a kid. So I didn't have friends, I wasn't networking, I wasn't connecting with anybody years zero through eighteen. Then when I found out when I went off to college that it was kind of fun to have a circle of friends, and I was already instinctively geared to helping these other people and to people in my environment, it just flowed out naturally. Now it was haphazard when I was in college and in my twenties because I was um we'll just say I was enjoying life a lot back then. Um but I was I was already helping a lot of other people. I was the guy who was you know running the parties and you know bringing people together that way. Uh I didn't even get into HR until I was in my late 20s. Uh and HR at that point I I thought very very foolishly, well, HR is because I I care about people, I want to help people. And we all know that that's not why you get into HR now. It's all about the bottom line and all that stuff. But along the way, I was helping people shape their careers and bringing them the tools and the and the and the the weaponry they needed to be successful in their careers. Uh and early in that time, uh, I'd say I'd probably been in HR five years or so, um, I encountered somebody who said to me uh when I was in a period of transition, when I was losing my company I was with was shutting down, and I was the one handing out all the uh the papers, so you know the uh severance packages and all that. And my friend says to me, Keith, you really need to start networking. Now, what she meant was you need to go out there and connect with some people so you can get a job. I had no idea what she was talking about. I had never heard the word networking used in that capacity. So I kid you not. I looked at her and I said, Why would I want to play with the cables on the back of my computer? And I was dead serious because that's all I knew right. That's what I thought she meant. Um, and it tells you how long ago, too, you know, the the whole concept of uh that's what to me networking meant. Right. But um that became well, what is networking? And I did my research, and a lot of everybody around me was like, oh, it's how you get a job. But to me it was bringing people together, making new friends, sharing resources, building community. And I was I'm like, I've been doing that my whole life, I just didn't know it. That sounds really cool. So I went and I looked for things, for places, every every place that called us up a networking group, I would go to all of them. Wasn't meeting anybody. And it was really, really frustrating. What I figured out was that everybody would go to whatever event it was, um, and there would be a speaker or a presentation, and everybody would go for that, and they would forget that the real reason you go to those things is to meet other people and build your community. You know, they would show up for the food, eat the food, listen to the speaker, and both they would leave. And I decided that something else needed to happen. Something we needed to have some other way of bringing people together, and the way to do it was to remove all that. Or as I like to say, and it's very proudly said on my website, we're all about nothing. Thank you very much, Jerry Seinfeld. So that's the that's the genesis of wine and dine networking. It's it's uh something that we do in 19 different cities every month and growing, and it's people get together and they just hang out. It's just a cocktail party, and people seem to love it. It's uh it's not for everybody, but it it it's where community really happens without interruption, without distraction.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Yeah, I agree. And it's it's really interesting that you you kind of bring us through your journey. So I think you and I are a lot more similar in that, yeah, we both kind of had that like nerdy antisocial vibe, but then we realized like, oh man, this is really cool though. I actually like this. Like, I actually like being around other people, bringing people together and being that convener. I was similar. I was I was the convener in college, brought people over to my apartment, you know, had had people over, you know, went on adventures, did stuff, right? And and I was always introducing new people to new people. Oh, you gotta hang out, you know, get to know each other. And uh it is so interesting how at a younger age, so much of that becomes like a cornerstone um of who you are later. And and you look at the the evolution of networking for a lot of people, is it's like you said, it starts with, well, you gotta get a job, right? Is most people start networking because they're out of a job, not because they're ready for their next job, but because they want to level up or whatever else. It's because they got fired, the business downsized, the business closed, like something happened. They no longer have steady income. And so now it's an emergency, and I need to get to know a ton of people. And that's in because I've been there. It's one of the most uncomfortable times to network when you're needy and you need something.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

And it's a terrible time to do it. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

I like to network from the opposite spot when I'm in a place of plenty and abundance, because then I can share, I can add value, I can be a resource for other people. And when you are a resource for others, other people start to see you as a resource as well. Um, and so curious for you, um, you know, because I, you know, for spoiler alert for those listening in the Rochester area, uh, I want to start a wine and dine uh out here because I love the idea of it, right? I love the idea of getting together and just talking with people, right? And there doesn't have to be this big agenda, there doesn't have to be this keynote speaker where often we're getting distracted from what's most important, which isn't the person up front, it's the person side to side. Um and let's just let's just have an event that's only side to side, right? It's just about those people next to you uh or or at the same event as you. Um so looking at like 23 years running wine and dine, and you've been, you know, I've been talking back and forth a bunch, and and you're talking about like it seems to be getting busier, right? It seems there seems to be a lot more interest in this this style of networking, and in particular your um your organization's way of doing it. Um, what do you attribute that to? What do you what do you feel like is causing people to want to do more of that kind of side-to-side type networking?

SPEAKER_02 11:11

So I I think uh, you know, in in the early days of wine and dine, it became just a fun thing. It became a place where you go visit your friends, you'd establish, you know, like I say, we're building community in every city. People got to see each other every month. Uh, you know, some of about two-thirds of the people who come to a wine and dine are typically the regulars, and one third are the newbies. Uh, and everybody who's a newbie you know loves it when they when they show up, it's great. So that it becomes this sort of regular thing, the get out of the house thing. Uh and uh it it it achieved a certain amount of popularity then without any promotion, without any marketing. So each city was kind of a um its own island, and then the pandemic happened. And we were you know relegated to being home for a while. Uh and so part of why it's be you know, I think it's taken on a more of a force now is that people are regaining that. There's there's some people who you know embrace the pandemic in a way and and like, oh, I got screens, I never have to leave my house. That's great, that's who I am. And that's fine. There's a there's a world for that, that's fine. It's not me. You know, I would rather in fact be doing what we're doing right now in the same room, but we happen to be like 400 miles apart, so that's okay, we'll figure it out. A lot easier, yeah. Right. Uh, but you know, they there's there's uh a part of the population, and it's less now than it used to be before the pandemic, who much prefers just sitting in a restaurant, grabbing a bite to eat, maybe sharing a beer or whatever, and and getting to know people that way. Uh networking is not for everybody, I will tell you that. Uh, and I it almost feels like a rapidly disappearing thing with young with the younger generations, if you will, who are who live on screens. Uh but I think that there is a portion of every generation that just wants that human contact. Uh and so many of the groups have gone to a lot of uh video type of connection that this fills a void. Uh this you know the groups that still get together in person and do fun things too, by the way, because not everybody does fun things, but there's there's a void out there. People want that that that interpersonal contact, especially look at look at us at work. Half of what we do at work now is on screens as opposed to being in person. So we're we're having less and less opportunity to interact with people. I could go into a whole analysis of how the younger generations are are so much more single than they used to be. Well, there's a pretty good reason for that. They don't have the opportunity to meet unless they're on dating apps, and half the world hates those dating apps. I've I've never touched that. Everybody on dating apps hates dating apps. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So I, you know, I'm certainly not the amount of single people has grown dramatically because technology has in some ways damaged our ability to interact. And it's the same thing in the working world. There's so many people who now work in in disparate locations that they uh they're not they don't take the time to bond in person anymore. And there's a lot of value to doing that. Again, not for everybody, but for a lot of people. You know, wine and dine uh and groups like this are not going to attract all the HR people. In fact, we probably attract less people per gathering than something like Sherm does. SHERM, great organization, wonderful people. People have this perception that they go there because they're paying money and they're getting this education, they're getting a presentation. But what they're not getting, no fault to Sherm, is they're not meeting each other. And humans need other people who just do, and that's why that there's this value is there for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Yeah, no, I I a hundred percent agree. And uh yeah, it's interesting. I've got some uh um siblings-in-law on my on my wife's side that are kind of in that younger generation, so it's been interesting kind of seeing them navigate all of all of that. That's so different, so different than than when I was coming coming up.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

And you would you would think I have two sons who are in their 20s. Uh, and uh they navigate the world very differently than I do. They really do. Uh, and uh I think they're they have some natural born skills. I mean, you know, they didn't have much of a choice given their father, but uh they do it very differently. Uh and some of it's good, I think, but some of it's I I'm to get off your lawn guide. So some of it to me is not good. We'll put it that way.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Well, because you look at it, right? Is like, you know, when I was growing up and and starting to get into the dating world and starting to socialize more and do all that stuff, you know, the cell phone had just come out, right? And I think for you, you're a couple years older, so like, you know, you had to use a landline to get a hold of people, right? And so, you know, so you'd show up at a house and you would just walk up and you would knock on the door. And then hopefully it was the right house. And then if it wasn't, you'd ask where the right house was and hopefully they could put you in the right direction. Oh, it's my neighbor right up the street, right? And it was a little bit awkward, and you get in your car and you just drive on to the next thing, right? And I think so many of those like little awkward interactions, there's become like this bigger fear around that. That that willingness to just kind of put something out there and let the chips fall where they may, right? Go knock on the door. I'm not sure if it's the right one. Hopefully it is, right? Versus sitting in my car texting and waiting for my friend to come open the door so I know it's the right one. Right. Um, it's it's definitely changed, uh, I think the way people interact when they get together, or if they even get together. Uh, another thing's changed too is the amount of cell phones, aka cameras, and video that are everywhere. And, you know, that was around when I was in my college years, I would my college years would have been very different. Uh, right. I probably would have made some actually smarter.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

I'd personally be I'd personally be in jail. That's it for me.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

But you know, I have a couple more brain cells um at the same time. But it also it has in a lot of ways this like policing influence sometimes, what it feels like, right? Is like this could end up on social media or like, oh, I gotta, I gotta contain myself or I can't, I can't express myself perhaps in the way that I want to. Um so kind of curious as far as wine and dine, how do you make sure people can show up and express themselves well? How can you, how do you create the the boundaries to ensure that wine and dine functions as intended?

SPEAKER_02 17:47

So other than the fact that I pontificate about it all the time, uh I I have very regular channels of communication with all of the people who run the groups for me. Uh we're in a bunch of different cities from Boston to Atlanta and now going as far west so far as Detroit, but that'll go much further west this year. Uh I'm I I'm constantly communicating with all of them. So they know what my philosophies are, and they watch and they share that with the people who come to the events. Very simple stuff. You can talk about whatever you want. There's nothing that's really off limits. You know, all the things we're not allowed to talk about when we're or be the way all the things we're not allowed to behave like at work, that all goes away. We can do whatever the heck we want. Uh it's a safe environment. The we the people who sell things to HR, they'll be there, but they're not allowed to sell. They have to be, you know, just hang out and help whoever you can and build relationships and all that sort of thing. Um we take all the rules away, uh, and we we we make sure people understand this. Hey, if it starts at 6, you want to get there at 6 30? No worries. You don't have to give it an RSVP, just show up. You want to leave early? That's fine. You want to get a uh a drink or something to eat, pay your own tab. But you don't have to do that. It's very relaxed, and the leaders are constantly reinforcing that in all of the different groups. Uh and and people want that, especially HR people who live by policies and procedures and structure and rules at work, and they have to be perfect at them because they're the one everyone's looking at. So when we leave work, we don't have to be that way. I used to say, and I think I cracked this joke with you the first time I met you. I used to say that wine and dine was a place where you would go to let your hair down. At the time I said that, I had a full head of hair before I started shaving my head. So now I gotta have a different line. It's okay. But um, you know, I it's it's still it's it's the same idea. It's it's you know, you can let go of all of that tension, all of that you can smile, you can crack bad jokes, off-color jokes. You can do anything you want at wine and dine, judge your audience, but you know, we're you're not gonna get in trouble for stuff. Uh and and you know, mo a lot of people I know live a very stiff and stilted life at work. Uh, so it is a a blessing of a relief when they go to these things.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Yeah. And I think you're you're touching on in a lot of ways, kind of the spirit and soul of HR currently is there's there's so much compliance, there's so much legality, there's so much pressure, there's not enough employees to do the work, there's not enough resources to get the work done that they need to. There's there's not enough. And yet they have to find a way to make it work. And and so they're tasked with solving some of these core challenges within the organization, right? Taking care and stewarding the people, making sure that the company is protected from liability and other aspects, right? Um, you know, helping protect the bottom line, but also they're trying to be that listening ear for the employee as well, to do what they can to advocate for them. Um, and and sometimes they get stuck in this middle where they just they can't win no matter what they do. Someone's unhappy, someone hates them, or everyone's unhappy, and everyone hates them.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Well, I mean, everybody hates HR to begin with, but I think more to the point, and I hear this from people at our events all the time. They they're either uh solo or practitioners or they're working in a very small team, uh, and they they don't have anybody else to ask the questions of. So going to a place like Wine and Dine is a great place to share ideas and get support from other people and not have to reinvent the wheel. Let's face it, everything in HR has already been made. It may not have been made in your company, but someone out there has made it. So why not share resources like that? Uh, even if you come from a big company, so there's a lot of uh corporate structures where if you dare ask somebody else who you work with how to do something, that's perceived as a weakness. So you you you feel like you have to do it all yourself, whether you're doing it right or wrong. So why places like Wine and Dine give people the opportunity to share resources without feeling that uh that pressure of uh you have to know certain things, you have to perform certain things. Um that to me, that's more of what the spirit of networking is. A lot of people, as I said before, think oh, it's all about job search. But I think it's more about people in jobs who Are uh reaching out and grabbing resources, not trying to reinvent a wheel, or asking for guidance on things that they may not be familiar with without the fear of repercussion from their own employer. Uh it's it's about building careers, it's about helping people live lives. I have so many stories that I do tell on a regular basis of not just people getting jobs or doing better in their jobs or building their careers better by sharing resources. I have stories of people saving each other's lives. When you make a difference in someone's life and you put them on a on a trajectory where they're gonna be more successful in their jobs, but they're also gonna have a better shot at living. That to me, that's what building the community is all about. That that's that is so much bigger than okay, let's get a job. And I totally get there's a bunch of unemployed people out there who they gotta focus right now. I get that. But like you said, I'd rather do networking from abundance. I whether I'm working or not, and I'm not really working right now as it happens, but I go from abundance the whole time. My view of networking is how can I help you all the time, even if I'm completely unemployed. Because if I help enough people, it's gonna come back. And it does in droves. I will tell you that I've been a direct employee some of my career, a consultant some of my career, um fractional right now, whatever the heck that dumb word means. And so I've been associated with about 40 companies in my life. Two of them I applied to. What does that tell you? Yeah. I mean, so many things have been either, you know, someone said I hear I heard about this job, and you know, I know I know you who you are, employee engagement and global communications. It happened this morning. I uh two days ago, a friend of mine who could not take a particular role referred that person to me because they they read the job description. It's a one-day-a-week fractional gig. They read the job description, they know what the company needed, they immediately thought of me. The next the next day, which was yesterday, I called up that company upon the uh introduction and said, Would you like to talk about it? And they were they were like, Yeah, let's talk about it. I walked into the building today, and in five minutes we'd already agreed that the job was mine. And it all came because my friend Kate knows who I am, understands who what I do well. Uh I wasn't even looking for that job. It was never posted.

unknown 24:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

And stuff like that happens to me all the time.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

All the time. That's the interesting thing, right? Is like I feel like a couple things happen. And my and I'm very similar. I've gotten, I looked back on it in uh in my career. Every single job I've ever had was through networking, you know, and it started as well. But you're too ahead of me then. Look at that. Right? I know, look at that, right? Uh I got a couple more years of my career to catch up. Um, but you know, even as a dishwasher, right? Like, oh, my friend was a dishwasher and they needed more help. So cool, come in, you can start there, right? So, like starting in my teens, like all the way through my my career up till now, it's it's been who have I known? And it hasn't ever been, I need the next job, right? There was one time where I was kind of fed up with a company and started kind of you know poking around, but that was one of my friends that I already had, and they were like, Oh, yeah, there's this opening over here. Oh, really interesting, right? I was mostly just looking for advice or you know, direction to point me in. Um, but let's talk about that then, you know, and so I I think a lot of people they start networking for a job, and those that stay, they're they're building a career versus finding a job or finding that next thing, right? You're you're building something bigger than yourself and helping people beyond just self-serving. Um, and and I think that you use the word servant leadership. I love that phrase. And and I think the idea of being able to bring something of value to the table for other people is really important with networking. And I think it's one of the most overlooked things, particularly for people that are, you know, in business development or in charge of kind of growing their own empires, is they often just think about what they need and what they can get. And they forget about how to give or what they can give. And so for me as an example, I always try to bring at least two or three thoughts or ideas that are useful for other people, like different experiences that I've had. So I've run this podcast and other podcasts. Uh, I write books and have coached people on creating books. Um, and there's a couple other, you know, bits of experience from my past that I try and sprinkle in throughout conversations or that are common that come up in networking conversations that I can say, oh, you know, I used to work as that, uh, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And now I can just add value to their life without needing anything back from them. I guess for for you, Keith, how do you try to add value beyond any self-serving value? How do you actually try to be be a plus in that column?

SPEAKER_02 27:25

I always I I I frequently will tell people that the value of knowing me is not knowing me, it's knowing who I know. Uh, and that I'll never help you directly myself, which is uh more true than I uh uh would like to admit, but less than uh uh other people will allow me to admit, I suppose. Uh yeah, I I I've worked for companies in so many different industries because of the consulting part of my life. I've uh I've I've seen a lot of different things. I I've had some very negative experiences, not in the in the in the working world, but in my personal life, that people can relate to. Um so I I listened very well and I can I know when to reflect back those sets of experiences to other people and what I learned from those things and how you know if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger, kind of thing. Some of some of that stuff I uh I I kind of practice that without even thinking about it. In fact, I think that's the first time I've ever said that. Uh, but it's true. Uh you know, you you take the things that you have learned the most from, and my instinct is help other people with it. Uh I mean I literally I I say this all the time. I I get up in the morning and the first the first thought in my head is who can I help today? Even when I'm totally unemployed. I I I just that's who I was raised to be. That's what my my mom and my dad taught me to be without using those words. So uh I I'm available and despite what my ex-wife may think, I listen very well. God, I hope she I hope she's not listening to this podcast. Um there's probably a few people out there who don't think I've listened very well, but that's a that's a whole other conversation that needs a beer. Um so you know that that's um when you when you uh are there, when you when you have a level of empathy that that allows you to listen and hear and reflect back and then dig into your own set of experiences and share where appropriate. That to me that's that's how I feel like I make a difference. Uh and then I I I like to think that what I've created with Wine and Dine has given people uh a place to go and and a community to that understands them, uh whether I'm there or not. And you know, the bigger it gets, the more I'm not there because I can't be everywhere, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Yeah. So you you brought up a really interesting concept, and and that is when you have these trials and tribulations in your own life, there's this natural instinct to want to share that, to, to, to not have that bad experience that you went through have just been purely a negative in in your life. Let's maybe see if we can turn that into a positive for other people's lives, right? And and I love the phrase, make make your mess your message. And and you look at, you know, the the messes that you've made or been a part of uh in your life, and this goes for our listeners, is spend a little bit of time thinking about what are some of the hardest, most challenging times that you've been through? What are some of the times where you've grown the most, where you've learned the most, um, where you've got, you know, you feel like you got a PhD in uh in some sort of street smarts where you had to learn it the hard way. And it's those things that are actually most interesting to other people because it's real and it's raw. And if you can go into it with that kind of a mindset, like I'm repurposing this, I'm taking this old ratty thing that wasn't great when I first had it, and I'm repurposing it into something beautiful now that I can share with others. If you can go about it from that perspective, that's a great way to connect with people. Because a lot of people are like, well, I've I have nothing to add, I have no special skill outside my profession, you know, like and and the simplest thing you can do is just share some of your experiences in a positive light, right? Not in a way you're complaining, right? Because we've been in those conversations where someone's just complaining about their spouse or their kids or their job or whatever, and we can't wait to get out of the conversation. Um, but those people that can take the negative and put that positive light on it, put that lesson learned into it, that starts interesting conversations. That starts conversations that go deeper often than HR is allowed to go, right? It can go beyond that initial service level to create that real human connection. So, Keith, I love that you brought that up.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

In in so many ways, if I could just tag on to that. Um when we're in a networking situation, whether it's a job search group or a pure networking group like Wine and Dine, or uh anywhere where you meet people and we you know we have this thing, uh, well, tell me about yourself. And what what do you hear? Oh, my name is Keith Bogan, and I'm I'm I'm an HR and I've been a business partner for so many years, and I and I work in this industry. And it's like listening to Charlie Brown's teacher, especially when you have a bunch of people in the same room. By the way, we do not do that at Wine and Dime. People just meet each other organically throughout the room. It's a cocktail party. There's no stopping to introduce everybody that's horrendous. Um But in places where that happens, it is nails on a chalkboard. It's horrendous. But when you say something different, when you say something that's outside of your profession, suddenly people are listening. You know, on the positive side, I could, you know, when I when I introduce myself, sometimes I drop the nugget that I'm also a non-denominational ordained minister. And people are like, What? My friends are like, What? You can do anything on the internet, trust me. Um and you know, uh, you know, sometimes I'll talk about the fact that uh I drove a car that had 588,000 miles on it. Because people, a lot of people who know me know that I travel a lot. Uh and so I I put a lot of my I've driven over a million miles in my life. Very few people will ever say that in their lifetimes. Uh I've done some pretty crazy things to go places. But when you throw things like that in the middle of, you know, two-decade HR practitioner, uh employee engagement, global communications, that's the stuff people are sort of expecting to hear. But then you throw in the nuggets that's personal. And I I have a whole story I tell about a woman who taught me that like almost 20 years ago when she introduced herself as an IT recruiter, and you know, you know, for fun, I like to ride horses, and everybody in the room got whiplashed because they're like, what the hell are you talking about? You know, you're not allowed to say that you know when you introduce yourself. But it taught me a great deal because everybody wanted to talk to her. Uh and so I I throw that stuff out there. If you look at my LinkedIn profile right below my name, you know, it says HR business partner, and it says HR director, and it says a few other employee engagement and the global communications. The last thing it says is lion tamer. Let me tell you something, that generates some conversation because people want to know what the hell I'm talking about. Now, I'm not going to get into that detail on this conversation. I want to have some personal conversations about that, but there's a story behind it, and that's the point. You say stuff like that to get people energized, to have more of a conversation that you want them to want to talk to you, not just you're just another HR person in the crowd.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Yeah. And I think that's a really good insight, is so many other places, the introduction process and the getting to know you process is very different. In the United States, it's it's much more impersonal, transactional, and work-related. You know, it is hi, how are you? Fine. Um, tell me about you. This is what I do for my work, you know, whereas other places, the initial greeting isn't how are you or what's going on or how's life? It's like, I am with you right now and I'm seeing into you in this moment, right? Like we are connecting as humans right now, right? And the greeting reflects that. And then, you know, like, you know, what's what's going on with you? How are you? It's not immediately, well, here's what happened at work today. It is like, what are they passionate about? What do they care about? What's going on with their family? Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

It's it's which is what we should be doing, which is what's absolutely what we should be doing. One if you take it down to the the really brass tacks, the really base element of job search, um, which is I've said to you many times, I don't like to do that, but I'm gonna do it for this moment. The biggest mistake a job seeker will do when they're out there, oh, I gotta go network. So, Andrew, what do you do? And if you answer me as a job seeker, well, I'm currently unemployed, I'm currently out of work. Psychological wall just comes slamming down, and no one, whoever you're talking to, is not gonna hear another word because they're gonna think they want something from me. That person I talked about, the IT recruiter. Well, I'm an IT recruiter, I specialize in this and this, I've I've worked in in these different industries, and for fun I like to ride horses. Not once did she say anything about the fact that she was out of work at the time. What she did was she got me and all the people in the room to just fall in love with her right away. Because she was engaging. And even when I went to talk to her one-on-one, it was like three or four minutes before uh she said before there was no reference to the fact that she was unemployed, but she also hadn't at that point said who she worked for. By then, oh my god, she's awesome. I can't, you know, she's I I gotta figure out where she works and steal her. Then she turned out she wasn't working. But I was talking to her and she got conversations going. I teach uh the job seekers all the time lead with one of two things, either what you're really good at and what what makes you spectacular, or start talking about the other person right away. Never lead with what you need.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

That's a great insight because as soon as you start leading with what you need, yeah, like you said, the wall comes up, people are looking for the next conversation, they're trying to move on. Whereas, you know, in my experience, all business has been done through relationships, right? We had a handshake deal because we shook hands as just people first, right? Not as someone trying to sell something, not as someone trying to gain something. We met each other, we were people, we know each other, and we help each other in some way. And sometimes that's going to work for somebody else, sometimes that's hiring someone else, sometimes that's connecting someone else to be hired by someone else in some way. And and that's another resource I think a lot of people underutilize is the ability to connect people to other people. That in itself is a high value activity. It's a if you're one of those people that's listening and you're just, I have no value to add, I don't even have any, you know, I don't have any hard stories that I can share, you know, I don't have any cool skills, you know. Um, at least you have that. You probably know other people, and some of the new people that you meet can meet some of the other people that you meet, and you can find a way to be that rich, find a way to make those connections for people.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

One of the great examples of that is the young kids coming out of school. You know, they look at me, I've been doing HR for however long, and they'll be HR students, and they'll and I'll say, you know, we all have something to contribute, and they'll be like, well, but I'm still a student, I I I don't have any experience. Well, I have nothing to contribute. And I said, You couldn't be more wrong about that. You can look at the world to the eyes of a 20-something. I can't do that. I don't know what it's like to look at it at the world that way. I don't know what it's like to look at the world on a screen all of my time. I don't know what it's like to learn in that fashion. Uh I can fake it, I can do it, I can make it work, but my instinct is in person. Uh my instinct is what does it look like through the eyes of somebody born a few decades ago, which is a completely different experience. And when when you talk like that, you know, the younger person will be their eyes will start getting bigger because they'll realize they have value. We all have value. We all do something. We all have uh networks in places we don't even think about having networks. People think their network, oh I I don't have a network because um you know I I don't work right now and and I didn't keep in touch with my last people at my last job. Really? You never went to school? No house of worship? Never played any sports? Because all of those are networks. Every human being is part of your network, it doesn't have to be part of a job to be in your network. I I have this, I I used to coach my son's uh sports teams when they were young, uh, and so many of those parents are still in my network. They were just parents of other kids on the teams, but I I'm I still know them, I'm still connected with them in many ways. Um, you know, I have my house of worship, uh, and I know some people from that place as well. Uh there's just my network comes from all walks of life and and all all for all different reasons. When people embrace that, networking is a lot easier.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Yes, I couldn't agree more. So looking at time, we are getting close to wrap-up. Before we head into ramp-up questions, I want to kind of maybe do like a little speed round uh for those that want maybe some just kind of quick tips or something super useful for networking. Um, do you have any top three, top five, a couple things that you know work really, really well when people are networking and trying to get to know other people?

SPEAKER_02 40:53

Always open the conversation with how you can help the other person. It's always the number one. Make it about the other person. And if the other person's like that too, you're gonna have a wonderful conversation for sure. Uh nine times out of ten, they won't be. People love to talk about themselves. So let them do it. That'll build the the foundation of the relationship right from the beginning. And you'll know whether or not you want to keep talking to the person too. Uh you'll sense right away whether or not they're selfish about themselves or whether they want to, you know, learn about you too. Uh so that that that is a a core element there. Um, don't make networking about jobs. Make it about life. When you buy a car, uh, and I did this recently, um, don't you go to your friends and say, uh, do you know a good dealer? I don't mean drugs, I mean cars. Uh do you know do you know do you know do you know uh a good place to buy a car? Because we can't trust most car dealers. So you want to get recommendations. That's networking. Uh, you know, I need to go on a diet because I'm a fat pig. I'm not gonna stand up because I don't want to show show you that. Um I'm actually not I'm not overweight, but you know, you know what I mean. Um uh what kind of diet should I use? Let me ask this person, let me ask that person. That's networking. Uh my uh my relative is is sick with this particular illness. Let me talk to some doctors, let me talk to some nurses, let me talk to some therapists to see how to do the best treatment. That's networking. If you understand the concept that you network when you breathe, not just when you need something, you're gonna have a blast with it.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Yes, and yes. So heading into wrap-up, Keith, if um if you had to share maybe uh actually before we do the one final piece of insight, um, what's the best people can find out more about you? What how can they find out more about wine and dying? How can they get to know Keith a little bit more? What's the best avenue to pursue that?

SPEAKER_02 42:53

To to mention the fact that we don't take ourselves very seriously, I should uh emphasize the fact that we, and we haven't said this yet, wine is spelled with an H. W-H-I-N-E and A-N-D-Dyne, D-I-N-E.org. Very simple, wineanddyne.org. Uh, I finally, after all these years, have a real website, which I just uh rolled out a couple of uh you know about a few weeks ago now. Uh thank goodness that your listeners will never see the old one because it was bad. It was really so glad you didn't look when we first met, thank goodness uh, because it was still there at that time. Anyway, um but the there, you know, all the locations we're in, all the different states, all the different cities are there, uh the by the bios and pictures of all of our leaders are there. Uh there's a contact form. Reach out to me. I mean, seriously, I'm not that difficult to find. I have a very um the spelling of my last name is not very common. Uh and I'm I'm the first person that will pop up in LinkedIn uh if you if you look for me uh under that uh under that full name. So uh I reach out. Let's talk. Whether wine and dine is a thing for your city or not, or whether you just want to you know connect with more HR people and you want to do it in LinkedIn and all that and have good conversations, please, by all means do.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

Yeah. And and I can say that uh I reach out to Keith completely. Cold. So there's a friend of mine who attends a wine and dine in New Jersey. And he's like, oh man, wine and dine's awesome. And the guy started Keith and blah blah blah blah. And he just talked it up. And I was like, man, this sounds awesome. So found the website, sent, you know, found Keith either on LinkedIn or an email or whatever, and sent him a message. And within a day, he responded back. And like, we and we got we got connected, we got talking, um, and we built relationship. And and so it's not that hard for those listening. You know, just find the person and start building their relationship. Um and cool stuff could start happening. So, so Keith, if you had to leave the audience with one final insight, uh, whether it's profound, simple, or just uh uh, you know, a little bit deeper on something we've already talked about, um, what would you want to leave the audience with today?

SPEAKER_02 45:02

You have seen my email signature because you and I have emailed back and forth a few times. So I it's it's an expression I live my life by. Uh, and I I'm not looking at it, but I will paraphrase it. You have not experienced a perfect day until you can help someone who can never repay you. There you go, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

I love that, folks. Take that, pay it forward, uh, and take that to your next networking event. And if you're not networking, get out and start. Because one of the things that that I think both Keith and I shared a little bit, but we didn't say explicitly, is some of the doors that get open through networking are expected and exciting. But a lot of the doors that get open through networking are unexpected. You would have never thought, and you weren't even aware of it or want it. But then when the door opened, it was awesome and you were so ready for it. Uh, and so that's another thing about networking is often we think we know what we want and we think we know what we're looking for. But when you network in the way we've been talking about, a lot of times things will come to you you never would have anticipated.

SPEAKER_02 46:10

And if you think networking is a dirty word, call it making friends. That's all call it what you need to. So you know, don't get hooked up on the word because a lot of people think it's a dirty word. I'm just making friends every day. I'm building community, I'm making friends every day. I consider you a friend of mine now. I can't wait to get together in in person and and you know, do things that friends do. You know, hang out and and tell stories and and uh help each other as much all the time.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

Perfect. Keith, thanks for so much uh so much for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_02 46:41

It is a pleasure.