E9 | Sometimes it's better to be ignorant | Alan Gregerman on HR.Salon Podcast

Today's guest Alan Gregerman wrote the book The Wisdom of Ignorance: Why Not Knowing Can Be the Key to Innovation in an Uncertain World. Often we seek to be the smartest or most knowledgeable person in the room. In this episode, Alan challenges that pursuit and shows us the high value that not being in the know can have on a company and on a team. 

This discussion changed the way I see new hires and opened my mind to the possibilities and potential that most organizations overlook. 

Check out Alan's book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FJJSXVGV

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the show. Today I'm joined by Alan Gregerman. He is the author of The Wisdom of Ignorance. We're going to dig into a lot of stuff, including innovation, creativity, and that exact topic today, wisdom of ignorance. Alan, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Well, greetings. Thank you for having me on. Delighted to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Yeah, it's a it's a blessing. Alan and I have had some great conversations. Uh, we bought each other's books, and um, I'm currently working my way through Alan's right now. So, Alan, let's maybe just just start with this idea of the wisdom of ignorance. And we had a great conversation about uh taking an idea and kind of flipping it on its head uh or kind of making a major twist. And that's a great way to make a statement, but also a great way to get people thinking. So let's maybe start with the core of the wisdom of ignorance. What does that mean and and why now? Why this book?

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Okay, good. Well, here's a good thing I'd like everyone listening to think about. And that is the more you know about something, the less likely you are to do something new. Now, pause for a second and think about that. The reality is the world is changing super fast. Five years from now, the world's gonna be very, very different. It's reasonable to think that we need to be a little bit different five years from now, and we might as well start today. So imagine if I know a lot about something, I can make it better. I know the ins and outs of it, whether it is a compensation plan or it's a business process or it's the way that we use Salesforce or whatever way we do things. I can make them better. I say, I need a new feature, I need to do something differently, I can tweak it. Um, if I know nothing, I take a fresh look at everything that's around me and I imagine that there might be a better way. And I think we all need to look for a better way to do things. So I want people to be open-minded and flexible in how they think about things. I want them to believe anything is possible because let's be honest, we haven't solved all the problems in organizations or the world that we face. And so, if that's the case, we need to take a fresh look. And so I'm just trying to challenge people to be okay with not knowing stuff as the starting point for knowing stuff and being awesome.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah, I love that. And and I think you you ground it well on the idea of not knowing stuff. And and you look at a title like this, right? The wisdom of ignorance. A lot of times ignorance it's gets a bad rap in some ways, right? It has a lot of negative connotations, but it's the wisdom of ignorance, not the wisdom of idiocy. Um, and so I think uh I think that's a crucial distinction. Like just because you're ignorant about something does not mean that you are not maybe an intelligent person or you might have great insights. Um, so I guess when you're when you're looking at someone who's maybe resistant to the idea of of leaning into that kind of ignorance space, how do you help them come to terms with ignorance can be a good thing?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Okay, good. So first I think we should clarify for people listening that the book isn't titled The Wisdom of Stupidity, because we need to only watch the news to realize how much stupidity we're surrounded by. Okay. And so stupidity, think about it, is I don't know, I don't care, I'm just gonna do whatever I want to do. The wisdom of ignorance is about a certain type of ignorance, what I call enlightened ignorance, and that is if I'm okay with not knowing stuff, but I'm motivated to figure out how to do something in an awesome way, changes the entire equation. So I want ignorance to be the starting point, not the ending point for our own thinking. And so I want it to spark our own best thinking. You know, for many people listening, they'll realize they're either entrepreneurial or they're surrounded by entrepreneurial folks, or they work in an entrepreneurial firm. What do entrepreneurs do? They find a problem, they don't necessarily know the answer, but they commit to figuring it out. In essence, we all want to be that way. We all want to be more entrepreneurial. So find something that really matters to you, and then step back and say, what if I approach this with kind of a fresh view or a clean slate and imagine anything was possible, would I do things a bit differently? And my guess is for most people listening, they would do things a lot differently. And so that's where the wisdom of ignorance comes in is the wisdom of ignorance sparks us to say it's okay not to know, but it's not okay not to try and make a difference. And so if I'm determined to make a difference and I'm willing to say what I know is either not relevant or doesn't even matter, then I start and I can do awesome things. You know, and life is too short to hang around people who aren't trying to do awesome things, don't you think?

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Oh, I agree. I very, very much agree. And that's that's why I have this podcast, and that's why I tend to hang out with people that are thinking ahead, that are thinking differently and aren't afraid to challenge the status quo or bring up ideas maybe that are a little different. And you brought up entrepreneurship, which I think is really interesting. And, you know, I was looking at actually a graph recently of kind of entrepreneurial rates, people that are working for themselves, and it's climbing, you know, it's climbing rapidly. And we look at what what's the core challenge of entrepreneurship? And a lot of that is risk and risk tolerance. You know, are you willing to pursue this thing with the potential of it not working out, with the potential of having bad things happen, with the potential of giving up a salary or giving up a full-time profession? And and I think when we we put on that willingness to adopt ignorance, I feel like some people are are fearful of stepping away from what they know, right? That that's now becomes a risky operation. And I think some of this is possibly biological, just in terms of risk tolerance, but some of it I think is also learned. You can learn to tolerate a little bit more risk over time. So curious for those that are maybe skittish around that idea of taking that risk of being the one that doesn't know or voicing that you don't know, or being willing to wade into a spot and learn about something that we don't know. How do you help people overcome maybe that inner fear of risking something?

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Okay, now that's a good question. Now, first, I should say I'm not on the podcast to suggest to everybody that they quit their jobs. Okay. Um but your question gets me to think about the fact that we're always in a world in which there are risks. We just perceive different risks in different ways. Um, is there a risk to continuing to go into an organization where I'm miserable and can't make a difference? Um, there's not a financial risk, right? But there's a risk to me in my career and my ability to express myself. So I don't tell people just to launch just because it's like a good thing to do. I mean, I started our company 37 years ago, but um I was young and naive. No, I would have done it, you know, any day of this 37 years. But what I do suggest to people is be on the lookout for something that you think you can make a difference in that really matters to you, a problem worth solving that people actually have a need and are willing to pay for. And some of the people listening might be in the nonprofit sector and so pay for is are there funders that are willing to support you? Other folks may be in the corporate world and they're saying, Well, I don't know, will people buy this crazy idea that I have? So I don't want you to jump before you have an idea that you're entirely wedded to. But I think if there's something that matters to you, you'll figure it out and say to yourself, I'm smart, I actually will figure it out. I just have to be willing to be open to coming up with a better idea. So, but everybody has a different risk profile, and everybody's risk profile is also tied to where they are in life. If I have young kids, you know, and I have a mortgage and a bunch of other things, I'm likely to be more risk averse in terms of losing an income than I might otherwise have been. If I have only like a suitcase or two and stuff I can put on the wall of an apartment and then take it down and find another apartment, I'm more flexible. So people have to decide where they are. But I think ultimately we all have to figure out either how to make a difference where we are or how to make a difference somewhere else, and that there's a risk to our career and our mental well-being to not be in a place where we're valued and can make a difference. And so that's kind of the trade-off there. Um for me, though, I feel the playing field is level. And when I say that, what do I mean? And that is anyone can come up with a brilliant idea without having to know a lot. And that's kind of cool. Um, we just have to figure out what's brilliant and then find people who can help us, you know. Examples abound, okay? Um, everybody listening takes an Uber, okay? Was Uber created by folks who knew a ton about taxicabs or GPS technology? No. But they knew that somehow there was technology that could bring people with a car together with people who needed a ride. Calendly, you know, I think you use that or a bunch of people use that to schedule things. Um, the founder of Calendly, he knew nothing about the software and the systems design required to put that together. I think he's like a billionaire now. He found a group of software designers and app designers in Ukraine who could make it happen. Okay, so lots of stuff happens, not because we're brilliant at what it takes, but we're brilliant at figuring out what needs to happen, and then we find people. So I want people to think about what's out there that they could be awesome at, and then, you know, seize the day when you're ready.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

I love that. And I think one thing that keeps coming up is the idea of problems and problems worth solving. Because when we're looking at it from an entrepreneurial standpoint, if you can solve a problem that the market has demonstrated a need for, you can you can now sell that and you can monetize that and you can build an entire business uh or an entire industry off of that. And within an organization, there may be, you know, smaller problems or smaller issues that may not be necessarily market-wide, but maybe they're company wide, maybe they're department-wide, maybe they're dogging everybody. Uh, and man, wouldn't it be nice if this didn't work this way? Wouldn't it be nice if this was fixed and worked differently? Um, so when you're looking at an organization as a whole and people that are having these moments of noticing a problem and possibly feeling unqualified to solve the problem, how how do you help change an individual's understanding? We've talked a little bit about that. But then how do you start to impact the culture of an organization where me maybe being in finance, having something innovative and interesting to say to someone who's in HR or another department that could solve a problem that could help all of us? How do we how do we kind of break out of the silos we often get stuck in?

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Okay, well, there's a you've asked a lot of questions there. There's a lot of stuff to unpack. Let me let me wrestle with a couple of them. So we'll get to the silos one. Remind me about silos because I have a really kind of odd take on silos that I hope people will appreciate. But how do you get started? You got to pick a company that actually wants its people to think in new ways. And then I think you have to think about company culture from day one. So if people are listening and they're HR folks, they have a significant role to play in company culture. Now, Andrew has told me that we're on audio, so you won't see this prop that I have here, but I have a prop here. So here's what I'd like you to do. Most companies and organizations um hire new people and then they put them through something called orientation. Okay? And orientation, Andrew's smiling. You can't see it on the audio, but he's smiling. So orientation is something we do because we want new people to basically know exactly how we do things so they can do more of the same. What a stupid idea that is. Okay. Um, so before they can start, we're gonna explain to them exactly how we do things and why that really matters. That's a really bad idea. So here's what I would do is I would ask new employees to orient us. Okay, now why would I do that? Now, think about this. A new employee has come from someplace different, okay? And so they know a bit more about the changing world than we do because we're kind of sitting or drinking our own bath water and continuing to do the same stuff. And we really wanted to orient them because we thought we were awesome. We were patting ourselves on the back. So a new employee comes and we say, we're changing the rules to the game. We're not telling you how we do things because maybe we do them well, maybe we could do them better. Instead, we're giving you this 99 cent, well, now it's $2 clipboard. We got it, Staples, okay? And we're giving you a sheet of paper. And on the sheet of paper, people should picture this. There are two columns. One column says the word brilliant, and the other column says the word clueless. And then we say, here's what we want you to do. For the next couple of days, we want you to wander around and talk to everyone you can. And every time you see us doing something brilliant, you just write it down here. And then anytime you see us doing something, you say to yourself, these people just climbed out of a cave. What's going on here? And you think we're clueless, you just write that down here, okay? And then what we want you to do is we want you to talk with our management team, bring your clipboard, and tell them what you've discovered. And you will have given us some massive free consulting, like right away. You know, we've picked your brain. We haven't pummeled you, we've picked your brain. And then what we want you to do, get to what I'm talking about-winded way to get to your question is then we say, okay, great. Now we want you on day one or day three to pick something you think we're clueless at that you can make us better at and be responsible for making that happen, okay? And so you've now got to go around the organization, enlist other people, and figure out how to solve that. What has that done that's dramatically different? Well, let's backtrack. The typical professional employee in America until COVID and the current government um spent like a year um at a job and then left. You know, it was like, cool, your resume. Oh, you've been there 11 months. That's awesome. You hung in there 11 months. I want people to hang in there longer than 11 months. What does it do? It says on day one, you actually matter. We're delighted to have you here. We're not gonna keep pounding crap into your brain. I mean, we got stuff we got to do, but we also want your ideas. We want you to make a difference. So that's really kind of awesome, I think. So that's a whole reframe, and that starts the culture off on a different path. So I would do that in a heartbeat. And I've done that with a number of our customers. The second thing you asked about how do you break down silos? So imagine this. Anyone listening here, you want to understand how corporations work? This coming weekend, I don't know when this podcast will drop. Um, go to a zoo, okay? And so I'd like you to just go to a zoo and wander around, and you'll see some really interesting things. You'll see that the tigers are only hanging out with the tigers, and the elephants are only hanging out with the elephants. Now I know a tiger might eat an elephant. I don't know who's going to win that battle. But, and then my favorite creatures, the lemurs. They're just hanging out with lemurs, they're poking their heads up, smiling. They should be customer service representatives, okay? Well, most companies and organizations are organized exactly like the zoo, okay? The HR people, they sit together on Lemur Island. And um, the salespeople, you know, they're sitting in their own cages. And the IT people, they sit with each other. They only talk with each other. And the only people who we believe it's useful to have talking with people in different departments are the senior executives. You know, there's a senior executive floor with the top person from every one of these departments. That's a stupid idea, okay? And so it's such a stupid idea. We don't have to do that. So if I want to change the culture and break down silos, here's what I do is I start organizing people in pods with folks from other departments. So that if you come into the organization, you work in HR, I'm gonna put you in a group with someone in IT, someone in marketing sales, someone in operations, um, someone in uh facilities, whatever the case, whatever we do, I don't know exactly what you guys do. And you're gonna hang out together, and when an issue comes up, you're just gonna talk about it. Now I've done an off and I'd put a senior executive there. So I'd put the senior executives not with each other, but with people at all different levels of the organization. And I would radically change where we hang out at work as a way to start changing the culture. So first, everybody matters the day they arrive. Second, is nobody's that special. We all need to kind of break up and hang out with other people. And I would dramatically change the culture of an organization way better than the 99,000 culture books that exist out there. Because those are written by people who don't think differently. I have absolutely no training. I am totally ignorant about kind of organizations and culture. I mean, I've consulted with them for like a thousand years, but I'm totally ignorant about it. But because I take a fresh look, I go, like, why not? Why wouldn't we do this? You know, when I get on like a bus or the subway, it's not like I'm sitting with all CEOs, you know. Who knows who I'm sitting next to? I start talking to them. Why not? Why wouldn't I do that? You know, and okay. I'm off my I'm off my soapbox now. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Well, it's and it's super interesting you mentioned that, right? And and I think a lot of um companies attempt to do that, or at least they think they are. And, you know, I think um uh either Pixar or Apple, you know, they're they're kind of famous for, you know, trying to force these uh, you know, collaborations or bumping into a hallway, uh bumping into each other in the hallway to force something to happen. And and I love that concept of just like, what if we just mixed it up, right? What if like the departments, the levels of management and all that stuff? Like, what if that was all, you know, it can still exist. You can still have your hierarchies, you can still have your departments, but what if you were just proximally based differently? What if you just spent a little bit more time with people from other areas? And it's it sounds so simple, but in in reality, like that is a profound change in most corporate cultures, right? Because it they everyone just kind of hangs out with their specialty or they hang out with their directly applicable neighbors that are going to be most helpful. And uh yeah, I think I think that's a a brilliant insight because now when I have a problem in whatever department I'm in, you know, I may just naturally talk about it. And someone from another department, they may have already solved that because maybe it's a software issue, maybe it's something else, right? They've already they've already found the solution, or they found something at a previous company that worked or whatever. Um, but I just didn't have that experience, and nobody else that I've worked with maybe had that experience. And now we get to cross-pollinate. Now we get to share these other ideas, other insights. Um, and I think it creates a much more cohesive organization. Uh so Alan, I love that. What um I guess when when companies do this, when they actually implement something like this, what do they say afterwards, right? Uh at a month or six months or a year after they've done an integration like that? What changes?

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Well, so I think they say after a month, God, this is hard. Can we go back to the way we used to do things? And I think at six months they say, Whoa, this is actually really a good idea because it helps us to stay connected as an organization because we need all these capabilities working together to deliver value to our customers. You know, and a point you raised a second ago is I'm assuming everyone we hire knows how to find their colleagues in their department if they really need to. You know, they can wander around. And the truth is if they're Colleagues are everywhere, then they're going to have to connect with a lot of new people, otherwise, um, during the course of wandering around. So I think it actually is a pretty darn good idea. The problem, of course, is inertia. Depending how old your company and organization is, it's probably organized itself in kind of what it thought was a really efficient way. You know, if we all sat together, we could all do more of the same better. You know, and as we started to talk at the outset, we don't need to do more of the same better. We need to do better stuff more regularly. And so I really want people to think about how are we going to make that happen? And HR folks are in the center of culture, right? So you have the ability to do this. And it actually has another benefit for HR folks. I have to be honest, in all the work I do, and I've worked with like 400 companies, many of them really large. I can't say that HR people are the most highly revered people in most organizations. They should be, because they really are the folks that help us unlock the genius in people. But the truth of the matter is the more we can get HR folks out there and hanging out with other people, the more likely we are to get people to see the value in them. And the more HR people are not just transactional. You know, my healthcare is a problem, or, you know, compensation, or can I have another webinar as part of learning and development? But the more we get HR people to be viewed as the people who help to unlock the genius in all of our people, help us find the right people and then get the brilliance out of them, the more valuable you become. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Yeah. And I think I think that's so true. Because if you're just stuck away in your silo or in your little cubicle land or like tucked away in your department, and you only emerge for compliance issues, for complaints, for we're changing the healthcare plan again. And so here's this boring three-hour seminar you got to sit through and sign off on. Uh, every experience that most people have is neutral to negative, right? It's like, man, that was I I wish I had that time back, or man, I I'm sorry I did that, or man, I wish someone wouldn't do this. And it becomes, like you said, kind of this kind of like reinforcing pattern. And ultimately, we're all people and we all have desires and we all have needs, and we're all looking to make a difference and an impact in our work. And so why not mingle among the people? Why not actually be around uh the people that you're helping? And and I think what what you do is you're gonna be more attuned to their needs at the same time. You're gonna hear about some of the challenges they're experiencing, and you're gonna notice some of the ways that you can unlock that potential organization-wide. And I think I think that's where a lot of HR professionals in particular struggle, is they're often seen as kind of this compliance engine that we have to be make sure we're good by the state, make sure we're good by the government, make sure we're good by whatever, you know, legal laws and and whatever else is going on. And they they sometimes don't get looked at as the the expert on people, the expert on what their people need. And often department heads or other people uh are are more trusted on the needs within the organization. Um, and so yeah, I love this idea of of the mix-up and of changing things up. And and when we look at how innovation spreads, right? How does an idea blossom and move somewhere? Um, you know, it happens slowly at first and then it gains momentum and it picks up speed. But the more integrated we are as an organization, the faster those innovations can spread. They can spread from desk to desk and and virtual desk to virtual desk because it's it's more distributed and it's more uh random in that sense. And and we're we're coming into this very interesting era. We're we're we're seeing the information era kind of see its end because information is now ubiquitous, right? We've had Wikipedia for many decades now, right? This collection of human knowledge, and it's not all that awe-inspiring anymore, right? It's not you know the Encyclopedia Britannica, right? And then Wikipedia, right? And now it's yeah, it's fine, it's whatever, it's just assumed to be there. But but this change in technology, this change in how we access information, leverage information, leverage data, all of that is starting to shift with AI and uh, you know, a lot of other industries, robotics and other areas. So looking at the changing pace around us of technology, and we often look within our organizations and we don't experience that same pace. We don't experience that same level of change or urgency. How can we be better organizationally when it comes to AI, when it comes to technology, and at the same time addressing some of the fears that the people within organizations have?

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Well, so think about human resources. It's not like bot resources, and I hope it doesn't get to that point. And so it's the part of an organization that presumably talks about why humans still matter in an organization. But step back, you know, so I spent a lot of time thinking about business strategy and innovation, and I think ultimately business strategy is what are we trying to accomplish in the marketplace and how can we stand out and be different and more valuable in the marketplace moving forward. So the reality is if I know where I'm going, then I now start to think about what part of that journey is human-led and what part of that journey is supported by AI and data and technology. And so, in a lot of businesses, they've just decided it's super cool to use AI, whether they even thought about let's replace people or not, they simply said, Oh, AI is the hot thing. We've got to be AI-enabled. Well, the truth of the matter is that if your business has anything to do with caring about customers or creating value, then there has to be a human element. You know, I before this podcast went on and asked a few questions just for fun with ChatGPT and Claude and I got some answers. Did I feel for a moment that those AI, whatever we call them, did they care about me? No, they gave me some canned stuff. So I want you to think about the human in your organization and where it's valuable. And then I want you to think about where humans don't need to matter that much. You know, the behind-the-scenes transactions, the getting certain things done. Um, and I want you to figure out because you're gonna need to strike a balance, of course, in doing those things. And then I want you to invest in the humans. And so when I think about humans, it's humans care. You know, so anything that's customer service ought to be a human. Humans imagine, you know. Um, I haven't found an AI platform yet that's particularly good at imagining. I mean, they can scrape a lot of data and tell me something, um, and maybe tell me something faster as a starting point than I knew already, but they're not going to imagine. Um AI doesn't connect the dots. So if I think about caring, imagining, connecting the dots, and then collaborating, you know, so we need a group of people to make something happen. Now I have kind of an agenda for humans, even in a world of technology. Because remember, it's not like AI is the first technology ever, okay? All these other technologies happened, and people said, oh God, it's the end of the world as we know it, okay? Um, you know, cars came up, fire came along 6,000 years ago, cars came along 125 years ago, computers came along. Oh, I don't know. I remember using, this will blow the minds of some people listening, a Wang word processor. You know, when I first had my first office job, whoa, that was pretty primitive. But people go, damn, a word processor, isn't this amazing? You don't need to use whiteout, you can actually correct it on the on the screen. Oh my God, that was like earth-shattering. And then the internet happened, and that was going to change our lives. You know, and then there was Google search, and now there's AI. These things happen, and I think they're tools that can make us more productive, but they don't change the basic human equation. I mean, I don't want to do business with a non-human, you know. Andrew, you're an author, and so I can see nobody else can see the beautiful poster of your new book on the wall there. But the truth of the matter is, you know, I buy stuff from Amazon. I have no relationship with anybody at Amazon. Would I like someone at Amazon to call me and say, Alan, you're like a wonderful guy. You know, your ideas are awesome. You know, we'd like to talk with you more. You know, that's a fantasy, but you know, it's not going to happen. So all of you need to think about how to amplify the role of humans and use technology to help those humans to be more amazing.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Yeah. I think it's everyone's catastrophizing. Not everyone, but many are catastrophizing about AI and what's changing and what's happening. I see it as just another technological bump and we're going to continue on. And no one has been sad that there's been a reduction in horse poop shoveling jobs, right? Where we need to clean the streets and keep the keep all that out of there from building up, right? Um, I'm thankful that I never had to have a job like that. Um, and I think most of us are thankful for the types of jobs that exist now. And to your point, this is this is a unique innovation in that you know, we haven't quite experienced AI type stuff like this. But yeah, we've had the internet, we've had cars, we've had all these other things that have disrupted, displaced, possibly rearranged. But ultimately, we still needed people, first off. We still needed human roles engaged in this type of work.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Well, so I not to be callous, because I love humans, but the truth of the matter is if somebody can figure out a better way to do your job using technology, maybe that's not an awesome job. Maybe you want to think about some other way to let your humanity shine through. You know, and as a little bit of a side, because it would be nice if AI could take over, technology could take over all the crap jobs. I'm not certain every really bad job is kind of, or every challenging job. You know, firefighters still got to put on the suits and go in there with hoses and hopefully save people's lives and keep their buildings from burning. So there's a lot of stuff that it would be nice that are dangerous that we still need humans to do. But I think everyone listening needs to just say to themselves, what's special about me as a human and what's special about humans? And I'm going to invest heavily in all those things. I wrote a post not long ago about the importance of investing to be more human than less human in an age of AI. And I really feel that's what all of us need to do. So think about what humans need to do in your organization and how your organization can be better. And then I just went to a session, uh, Bless Their Hearts. It was the folks at Marriott, the world's largest hospitality company, and they were talking about using AI to personalize guest experiences. And I I stand up and I say, Well, you know, that's all this is fascinating, but AI is not going to personalize a guest experience. Um, a personalized guest experience is me arriving at a hotel. The person there says, Alan, I am so excited to see you. I have thought about some really cool things you can do while you're in Cincinnati. And I go, oh, that's pretty exciting, you know. And so that's kind of a cool thing. So the truth of the matter is, think about what your organization needs to deliver compelling value to the folks you serve and how humans need to be front and center, and then use technology to help the humans be better at being front and center. I think it's pretty regular. It's kind of change, change 101, and I believe you can make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Yeah. And and I think that's a that's a great point because we can leverage AI, we can leverage all these different technologies that are coming out, but ultimately for certain things, we like that human touch. We like that human interaction. And I remember probably about six or eight months ago, I was using uh, I forget exactly which AI platform, but every time I I asked for a prompt or I asked for feedback on something, uh, it started, and this is a newer term for those who haven't heard of it, it started glazing me. It started, it started like being effusive with like its praise and like how great I was or how nice of an idea that was. And it was just endlessly frustrating. It was really annoying. Uh, and it was trying to connect all these weird, disparate ideas together, like it would be helpful. Like, oh, you were asking about your fantasy football stuff over here. So that must somehow be relevant uh to this business question that you're asking right now. So I'm gonna connect them and make you feel good about it. And it's like, whoa, that's not really personalized, right? That's just weird. Um, and I think I think some of that weirdness, maybe over time, has gotten better. But ultimately, to your point, Alan, you can't really do personalized without person, right? Is like it takes that human element to really make something feel like a genuine connection, to feel like we've actually um helped each other, like I've actually had a person that is looking out for me. And and how much more valuable is that personal connection in the age of AI when people are talking to chatbots like they're their friends, uh, and then you have an actual person that shows interest in you. Oh, yeah, no. What valuable is that?

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Well, and I think there's gonna be a bit of a backlash, and we're gonna get to a happier place, right? So I'm guessing very few people listening have had a five-minute interaction where they end up cursing at AI because that's the customer service they get initially when they call the utility company or the phone company or any company. And so you end up just cursing and starting to scream into your phone anything to get you to a human. So there are times, of course, where it works pretty well. Um, my wife's from Sweden. We've been known to read Swedish murder mysteries. The folks on Amazon, they see that we do that. So they send us a message. If you like that book, you might like these ten other God, it must be like every Scandinavian is writing murder mysteries. But but they say, here are more Scandinavian murder mysteries. I'm okay not having a human do it, but now imagine this, because I bet it's happened with a bunch of folks listening. You go to a restaurant, there's no waiter or service person, there's a QR code. Here, just scan, and this could be a nice restaurant. Scan this and place your order. I don't know. You know what's good, what's interesting. Let me have a conversation a little bit about what I like with an actual human who can say, no, this is really good, or you know, I don't know why that's on the menu. It's disgusting, or whatever the case is. But I want a human to come and say, hi, we're actually glad you're here. We're not glad your phone that can scan a QR code is here. We're glad your butt's actually in this seat and you're having a meal. Any questions? Yeah, well, yeah, tell me about this. Or I don't want a bot to serve me a signature cocktail. You know, so whatever. But, you know, so I think people are gonna realize that a lot of companies have gotten carried away, they've forgotten about the human element, and we're gonna go a bit back to that, and then we're gonna figure out the way that technology works. But I just say for everybody listening, invest in your people being humans. Don't because the other stuff, we can all learn the other stuff, you know, and and uh the most important thing is to be like a human who actually cares about customers and other people and coworkers, and then that's kind of good. I mean, the thought that we have like a department that's all computers talking to each other, I don't believe that's gonna happen. Maybe I'm wrong, but yeah, so yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Right, and as we're talking, I think I saw an article maybe two weeks ago of uh uh the first like bot AI-based social media network. Uh, and it just yeah, it sounded very, very bizarre, very strange. And a lot of the results and commentary about it, uh, and what they were doing was was odd. Um, but looking at where we are, the human element, uh particularly in human resources, but ultimately when it comes to the work and and workforce, um, I love that that we've gone through ignorance, we've gone through how to how how to navigate that risky feeling, how to maybe mix up your organization a little bit to help with that ignorance and and innovation at the same time. And and as we head into wrap-up, kind of two final thoughts here. One, Alan, for those that want to get into your world, for those that want to connect with you, they want to get your book, they want to uh, you know, subscribe to your social media or whatever else, how can they find you? Where's the best spot to go do that?

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Well, you know, it's easy using AI, of course, to find anyone. No, but seriously. Yeah, so I would love for people to connect with me on LinkedIn. That's good. I would love for people to go to my website, and I think it'll be in the show notes, alangregorman.com. Uh, reach out to me. I'd love to hear what people are doing. Um, I post on social media, mostly LinkedIn. I post business things like three times a week or so. I don't have the energy. No, like three times a week. I write other stuff. Um, you know, I've written a number of books. The wisdom of ignorance is the newest one. I'd love for people to read that and then reach out to me. Um, yeah, so any way that you're comfortable doing it, if you want to talk more, send me an email or there's a way on my website to connect with me. I personally respond to all this because I'm not smart enough to figure out how to get AI to respond. No.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Right. And that because that human touch matters, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Oh, yeah, yeah. And everything I write, actually, I write myself because I like to write, you know, it's so yeah, but yeah, so I think it's easy to uh hold me. Please do. I'd be eager to learn. And if you got some ideas um of things you're doing that are awesome, I would love to know those. And maybe I'll even write about those at some point. Yeah. So that's probably and you know, if you want like a to learn more, uh, I can send you links to other stuff and videos of talks and things like that. And uh yeah, I even have some courses that I've designed that are virtual or video courses with me actually, but they could watch them on a computer. Yeah, so that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Yeah. Alan is a host of resources. Uh, even just looking in the uh the bibliography section of his book, I was like, oh, that sounds interesting. That sounds interesting. I gotta check that out. Uh so yeah, he's he's got a ton of places and a ton of things that he can help you with. Check him out. So, Alan, as we end our show here today, do you have one final thought or one final summary idea you want to leave people with uh as they head out to go back into their day?

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Okay, good. So whether somebody works in a big organization or a medium-sized organization or a small organization or does their own thing, I just want people to think about the fact that the world is changing fast. We have to change along with it, and that that creates huge opportunities for us and the organizations we're part of. And those opportunities are gonna be seized by those of us who are willing to step back and take a fresh look and imagine how to be more remarkable. And so I'd love everybody just to think about when they go back to whatever they do, what it's gonna take for you in whatever role you're in to be more remarkable, and then just start to do it. I mean, I don't want to, because I'm not a big owner of Nike stuff, but you know, whoever came up with the just do it, those folks were really pretty darn clever. Okay. And so I want you to just do it. I want you to take some initiative, whether you stay in your own organization or whether you decide to launch something on your own. I want you just to believe that now is a great time because you don't have to know a lot. You just have to want to know a lot.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Ooh. Yeah, so powerful gang. Yeah, you don't have to have all the answers, but you have to have a ways to go seek them out. Go solve the problem. Awesome. Alan, thanks so much for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.