CX Diaries - with Keith Gait
CX Diaries with Keith Gait is my podcast where I talk to the people at the sharp end of CX and Contact Centres. The Movers and the shakers, the innovators, the disruptors, and the people delivering in the real world who share their personal stories of their journey through our industry
CX Diaries - with Keith Gait
Unlocking Transformative Service Operations with Nicola Collister: From Flexible Working to CX Elevation
Unlock the secrets of transformative service operations with Nicola Collister, a pioneer in change management. Discover her incredible journey from spearheading homeworking and self-managed teams at RAC to innovating with Europe's first speech-enabled IVR in retail. Nicola's insights into navigating the post-COVID era's hybrid work environment offer a compelling narrative on overcoming today’s challenges while embracing the exciting opportunities within the service sector.
Facing the pressing demands of cost reduction? Our conversation dives deep into the complex world of offshore operations. Learn from Nicola's experience as we unravel the strategic approaches essential for CFOs and COOs under pressure to slash expenses without sacrificing service quality. Explore the dynamic balance between technology adoption, customer preferences, and the talent challenges prevalent in offshore regions, and gain practical advice for ensuring seamless transitions in your operations.
Elevate your understanding of customer experience's rising prominence in boardroom discussions. This episode sheds light on how customer service is shifting from merely a cost centre to a strategic enabler of business success. Through captivating storytelling and strategic insights, we discuss the cultural shift necessary to place CX at the forefront of organizational priorities. Discover how innovative service solutions can drive meaningful business improvements and secure CX’s rightful place at the executive table.
Be sure to check out the YouTube page for the Video version
https://www.youtube.com/@CustomerExperienceFoundation24
Welcome to CX Diaries. Cx Diaries from the Customer Experience Foundation is our podcast where we talk to the people at the sharp end of CX and content centers, the movers and the shakers, the innovators, the disruptors and the people delivering in the real world who share their personal stories of their journey through our industry. This week I'm delighted to be joined by Nicola Collison. Nicola has held various senior roles in service operations, commercial and change in a number of industries working internationally and in some very fast-paced ones, such as retail and logistics. Nicola, welcome, it's a pleasure to have you with us today. Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm welcome. Thank you.
Speaker 1:So, nicola, you've pioneered a number of innovations in your time, over the last 25 years, which our listeners would, I'm sure, love to hear more about. So tell us a bit more about your background.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no great. And just listening to your words, innovators, disruptors, pioneers I was once called a maverick by a previous boss, many, many years ago. So I remember going home sort of thinking I don't know whether that was positive or negative connotation so well, no, it's probably because I've always pushed the boundaries. I've always, you know, I always like to think about what could we do differently, how can we do it differently, whether that's technology, whether it's people, you know, whether it's ways of working. I started life out in my work career at the RAC many, many years ago I won't say how many years ago, but many years ago and you know they were and I'm sure they still are at the forefront of, you know, developing technologies. They worked in conjunction with the military at the time. So you know, we used to, you know, sort of test and see some really innovative things. But it meant also that, as a leader, you were asked to push the boundaries in terms of everything from ways of working, which is where you know, 28, 30 years ago I launched at Homeworking and also self-managed teams, which you know, I think it was. It's been a bit of a fad, I think, over the years, but you know, actually we rolled it. It's been a bit of a fad, I think, over the years, but, you know, actually we rolled it out really successfully.
Speaker 2:I then moved on to retail. So catalogue retailing businesses, now known as online retailing businesses, such as M Brown, jd Williams and also Shop Direct, a very group where, again, you know, introduced I think 22 years ago was the the europe's first speech enabled ivr, and I remember sat in the boardroom presenting this new concept, this new technology, and being told the customers will hate it and they won't use it. That won't work. Why are we spending all this money on this technology? Well, they did. We had to refine it, but they did and obviously it's common practice. Now through to, yeah, supply chain and retail. I worked in logistics businesses such as Yodel, arrow, excel for on the back of very group. So, again, lots of technology transformations, but also, you know, lots of changes in in terms of how operating models were designed and, again, you know, a big rollout of things like home workers and self-employed couriers.
Speaker 1:So, yes, a number of things over the years and looking at home working, we know you worked a lot on the impacts and opportunities of hybrid flexible working. You also chaired our recent Leaders Summit on the topic. So, throughout the recent unprecedented challenges we've had, and we're now into the cost of living crisis, what does this mean for the service sector in 2023 and into the next few years?
Speaker 2:I think it's going to be a really interesting question and I think it's going to be, um, quite a testing time at 2023 for businesses, but not just for businesses, for colleagues as well, because we've, you know, we saw a seismic shift at the start of COVID, you know, almost pushing people to home. You know, in some cases, people that actually can't work from home. You know it's just not the right environment for them, but there was no other way. You know, we also saw lots of self-employment, you know, so a massive increase in self-employed careers. And you know and again, I don't think we've necessarily got the right infrastructure and the right ways of working. You know, even down to some of the being able to set yourself up, you know, I don't think we've got the right ways of working in infrastructure to support those models.
Speaker 2:Necessarily, in the UK, the US is probably much more ahead than what the UK is. But I think it's going to be interesting because we're almost starting to see things retract, and what I mean by that is we've seen, you know, we've spoke to chief execs where it's almost been a as soon as we can get them back, we're getting them all back in the office. There's almost this fear of I don't know what people are doing, or they're not as productive, or, you know, the costs are going in the wrong way, or actually we just can't afford to invest in all of this technology that we would need to to sustain that almost homeworking model going forward. I think, in addition, you look at some of the recent announcements we've seen, you know, certainly in technology and retail sectors around redundancies and you know, sort of job shedding, so and that's, you know, coming from some of the mammoth companies like Google's and the Amazon's of the world. So it's, it's going to I think it's going to be an interesting time.
Speaker 2:One of the things which is I almost wish we could change it actually is this term hybrid, because it's really about, actually, businesses need more flexibility, but they need more resilience and, as a colleague, I probably need more flexibility, but I want, I need, I need to build resilience and perhaps the company needs to build, you know, more resilience around me. So I think it's more about now, you know, almost right resources, right right place, right time. Um so, and as I say, I think it's going to be interesting to see what, uh, what changes we see as we move through 2023 right, so let's unpack that a little bit more.
Speaker 1:So everyone needs more flexibility, right? The company wants more flexibility and the staff want more flexibility, so something's got to give there. So how does a service business plan for that?
Speaker 2:I think first of all, you need to be clear about you know what, what your demand is and what that flexibility is. So when you know it's back to the age old, when a customer's trying to interact with you, actually when do they need some human support versus technology? Technology is available 24 7, so you know, if I want to do something in my pajamas at 1am in the morning, and actually do you know what I'm a shift worker at amazon then I should be able to do that. I think, versus the. Then when do you know what I'm a shift worker at Amazon then I should be able to do that. I think, versus the. Then when do you actually need colleagues there and where do those colleagues need to be?
Speaker 2:So so I think you know it doesn't just put into question homeworking. It puts into question where do they need to be located? Um, does that need to be in the UK, you know? Would it be overseas? Is the better access to talent elsewhere? So I think it. You know it calls into question the what's your demand? What? What flex are you going to see in your demand? And and where do you think the right resources, the right skill set and the right people are to service that demand and and allied to that how is the cost of living crisis going to impact flexible working and those service functions and the people working in it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's a big issue. Simon, we were chatting about this last week. Do you want to? Can I bring you in on that question?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think some of that's got to unwrap a little bit more into this year. I mean, the real thing around cost of living was inflation. We're seeing that start to edge down. It was all the stuff around cost of energy which was driving a lot of cost tripling of energy costs and you were starting to get things coming out around. Well, you know, is it cheaper to go into the office than stay at home? But then I've got travel costs and strikes and things. I think what it does play back into in which she's got.
Speaker 3:You do need this flexibility as you picked up on quite quickly though, keith, which is flexibility, has got to be a good thing for the colleagues and for the business, as long as it's proper flexibility, and we've even seen people already, when they're trying to put things like hybrid in. They're putting hybrid in, which is based around fixed times when people are or are not in the office. Yet we know from service models and nickel was talking about some of the things that were going on there that flexibility and service is like micro scheduling. Can I get people in for two hour shifts? So I think the cost of living crisis got an interesting one, but it's how much that will bleed out of the economy.
Speaker 3:Now. I think the bigger thing is there is definitely a recession. We've talked it up. There was a lot of cost that was loaded into a business, into a lot of businesses and a lot of sectors. I think what you're going to see through the start of the year is that bleed out of people into the business, like, as Nicola was pointing out, we've already seen with Amazon, etc. But I think it comes back to flexibility. Can you give people the flexibility so they can work in the right place for them and for you as a business?
Speaker 1:So just touching on that, we're into the final quarter and a lot of CFOs will be sharpening their pencil for the 24th financial year. What are those outcomes going to be?
Speaker 2:things are not going to get any easier no, and I think you, well, you we've already started to see, aren't we? As I say, and I think, to be fair, you know some clients that um, that we're working with you know they're seriously having to challenge um and really question their operating models. So I think we will see. You know they've already been reviewing. You know building leases do we really need those? Will see, you know they've already been reviewing. You know building leases do we really need those buildings? Um, you know, do we need them in the locations?
Speaker 2:You know costly london, you know london or city center premises. Actually, could we go to more out of town places? Um, and in equal, as you say, at cost of people. You know one of the biggest costs in a business is people costs. So usually followed by, secondly, you know, sort of overhead costs like buildings and engineering and technology and so on.
Speaker 2:So I think I think we'll definitely see more, unfortunately, of some of the news that we've seen in recent weeks around. Let's call it, you know, job shedding, because that's what it is, it's it's shedding people, job shedding, because that's what it is, it's it's shedding people. Um, I think we'll also see. I think for the service sector, which you know can be. It can be a good thing, but often it's done negatively, which is, again, location strategy. So, you know, do things need to be in the uk or could we get better access to talent overseas?
Speaker 2:I think the question mark will be, though are people really viewing it as better access to talent or actually are they just lift and shifting, in some cases, what they've got here? And we've heard the analogy before. You know, lift and shift your crap and just move it elsewhere. So let's hope that's not the case. And actually people are really thinking about again it's back to the, you know, does a customer a human interaction or human assistance? Actually, is that something that could have been done digitally? And there's so many advancements. You know there's too many to list, aren't they in terms of technology advancements. So could we leverage technology more? Um, where we need human assistance or human interaction, you know, again, what's the right access to talent in in, and what's the right place for us to be doing that?
Speaker 1:And, just picking up on that, something we're seeing an awful lot of is picking up on the offshoring, a gold rush to South Africa. What are your thoughts on that, about that trend? How should an organisation do that, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:I think it comes back to again, it's about designing and planning it right. You know I'm, as you say, a big believer in places like South Africa. You know, again, india's got a great place in terms of, certainly, some back office and technology innovations, as have other countries. You know, there's lots of other countries around the world that are good in terms of access to talent, lots of other countries around the world that are good in terms of access to talent.
Speaker 2:I think my concern is, though, as I say, it comes back to this I'm being pushed by the CFO. You know I've got a cost centre. I've got to get my cost down. You know we've heard numbers, percentages like I've got to reduce my cost by 20 or 30 percent that's not a small number as well as absorbing all the cost. You know, cost, cost, rate of inflation increases. Therefore, do I just have a knee-jerk reactions to? I'm just going to take what I've got and I'm just literally whole scale, going to move that overseas. That's not necessarily the best thing to do, because it's back to that. Actually stand back and read and redesign, look at and say that could be, that need could be met by that technology, that need could be met by actually a customer just wants to do that online. This need here requires this skill set and therefore is, you know, is South Africa, you know, is that the best place to access that talent yeah, and and the danger of just going for labour arbitrage.
Speaker 1:Do you still feel that's a key driver for many businesses?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it is. I think it is. I think if people were honest about it, you know they talk about, you know, customer experience improvements. We talk about access to talent. You know there are certain areas of the world where you know they have equally got a talent shortage of the world where you know they have equally got a talent shortage. So you know, and certainly some of the experiences I've had with South Africa in recent years are, you know it's not necessarily at the advisor level, but certainly at the team leader, the middle management and the support level. And whilst that's improved as they've invested in development programs, you know, for some of the support and the leadership roles, and if there's a whole scale shift, you know, if we see thousands and thousands and thousands of seats moving over there, um, then potentially that's going to put it is going to put stresses and it's going to put a drain on those types of talent.
Speaker 2:I think, equally, though it's always been, you know, take the team leader, uh role, it's always been a drain in terms of talent in the UK. You know, because what you typically see is well, the reason that you know the way in which we can get some cost out is by increasing team sizes. So you know team sizes of 15 to one ratios. You know you see some organisations where it's 20 to one, so you know 20 direct reports to one leader. And think particularly in. You know, in areas now where my model is, I've got some people working in the office, some working at home, some doing a hybrid. You know the strain that it's put on team leaders now is is extraordinary and I don't think as an industry, we have necessarily equipped those team leaders with all, all of the additional skills they now need to manage this more flexible workforce.
Speaker 1:So what would your advice be to any COO listening who's thinking of moving offshore? Would there still be a dip in service while the operation embeds, or does it still have to be that way? Is it better these days or is that still a risk?
Speaker 2:it is still a risk unless you plan it in. And you know, often businesses as part of their you know transition plan, forget the fact that you've got, you know, many weeks, if not a few months. Um, you know, in terms of speed to proficiency of dual running. So, and they see as and I've had some very interesting conversations with cfos actually and ceos over the year you know, we can't just pull up, pull a lever and go from it being handled in the uk today to it being handled, you know, overseas, wherever that might be tomorrow. It's a bit like moving it from site to site or moving it from a site to home. There has to be that transition period and ultimately, dual run. So you know, if they're seeing it as a quick fix, it's not. It's not a quick fix and this is this is the challenge.
Speaker 1:It should be seen and and planned as part of a longer term strategy so what do you say to a business where the cfo is looking at cost reduction and the customer experience director is looking at higher and better cx delivery? You've just gone into that boardroom. What's your presentation to me?
Speaker 3:simon, do you want to come in, and then I'll um, I'll add to that, I'll give my view yeah, I will do, and I mean it's an interesting one because we follow, obviously, that the cx community I mean, I mean nicole used that to do a lot of the changes that were done within very and I think and you mentioned that comment do we really think people, just after labor arbitrage, people need to get themselves out of the mindset of thinking that service is a cost that needs to be removed? And I think there's two parties that play in that there's the board and there's the ceo and there's the service people. If you can start enabling a conversation about look, service is where the brand hits the customer. It's where real value can be created, and it does it in two ways. It delivers absolute value to the customer and aids retention, but it also provides a route back into the business.
Speaker 3:So your cost to serve and a lot of people have tried to justify CX improvements on the basis of well, we need to, well, it should be done on a business case basis, but what you should do is sort of arm and leg the other bits of the business and if you've got a cost of failure here, that might be three or four or five hundred thousand pounds worth of cost further up in that supply chain, in the business, in the business.
Speaker 3:So I think, in terms of what you try and do to get the FD off your back or on your side, will be to bring the other areas of the business in, to realize that we're not a cost of failure, we're a lens into the business's overall efficiency and effectiveness and we're your primary thing that's going to keep you close to your customers.
Speaker 3:And some of that was coming right out at the start of COVID Service has saved us our ability to stand up, and some of that was coming right out at the start of covid service has saved us our ability to stand up. And, equally, the other side to it that goes back to what nicola was talking about and plays a little bit back into what you were talking about, keith was resilience, having a spread risk approach, build your resilience and reminding the fd that business continuity was a massive problem when COVID hit. So I think it's about expanding the remit and bringing the other directorate in, preferably before you've got in the boardroom for that presentation to go. Look, you know, I'm the end result of something and I need to be judged on a broader basis because the business impact I can have is significant and wide.
Speaker 2:That would be my thought as to where I'd be going before I got into the boardroom I have to say and I think in in you know some people, some people do it really well and have done it really well. You know there's many peers over the years where you know I've had some really interesting conversations around that very topic. You know how we prove the business case of the value. You know the value that service or experience has and often it's just seen as a cost center and one you know one of. Can you reduce by 10%? Can you reduce by another 10%? And it's trying to change that narrative. But the facts and the figures that are behind it, building on what Simon said. So you know and I think back to you know, even in customers we're working at, clients we're working with now, it's proving that where is the value? So where can you prove that, say, in a retail business, that actually that interaction with that customer whether that's a live chat interaction it could be a, you know, call interaction actually has improved the average order value? Or actually that interaction now with that set of customers has actually improved their lifetime value, cause what they've done is they've come on now and shopped with us four more times this year and it's using that data and working with the marketing teams and often the data teams to prove that. So that's on the sort of value side.
Speaker 2:The other side of the value equation is cost out and, as Simon said again, you know we're often and have done before, you know, proving models where actually we can take cost out either upstream in the supply chain or downstream, by again having this interaction with the customer or, equally, being proactive and preventing it in the first place.
Speaker 2:So you know, proactive messaging, actually building the experience here, if we do that and that costs you know 0.01 pence and we do two or three of those, actually that's preventing. You know 0.01 pence and we do two or three of those. Actually that's preventing. You know this return coming in in a retail business which is, you know, in some cases your product margin wiped out entirely, if a customer returns something you know, through to actually logistics businesses where the last thing logistics want to do is to come back to your house again tomorrow. You know if they deliver today, it costs them then to your house again tomorrow. You know if they deliver today, it costs them then to deliver that again tomorrow or certainly in some cases then the third time. Hence the rollout of you know um, click and collect at locations. So you know it's that it's proving that value, not necessarily in your pnl, it's proving the value that you're having in your colleagues, other directors, p&ls.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's always a thorny and hot topic on our podcast, so we will ask the same question when does technology play?
Speaker 2:Technology plays a huge part, but it's an underpinning part. It's underpinning and it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be driving the agenda, and I think this is the issue in a lot of organizations. It drives the agenda and it actually, in some cases, sets the stall out as to how you should be doing things, whereas what we should be doing is standing back. And it's back to this again design it. So design your operating model right place, right people, right time. You know service or experience interactions again, what. What does a customer want and need? So what, what problem or outcome are they looking for and how are you best then supporting that? And technology should be the thing that's underpinning it, but also people in some cases, underpin at some elements of that. So I think you know, for me it plays a big part, but it's it's. It shouldn't be the person that's steering the ship. It should be. It should be the one that's on the ship with you and enabling you, but not steering it.
Speaker 1:So what's your and again, it's a subject that we've returned to with many guests and it'd be really fascinating to get your take on it why do you feel that the CX and contact centre industry still struggles to be represented in those conversations or represented or seen as a key contributor at board level?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean my personal view and I'll come to Simon, I'm sure, because Simon was almost the front end of the right conversations with their colleagues and in some cases are almost, I think, a bit subservient to the rest of their exec colleagues around the table. So it's back to that. They've got to have the ability to prove the value that either a customer service director or a CCO or a CX director, irrespective of you know role, title or the you know remit, it's proving that value to the organisation.
Speaker 2:Simon do you agree or are you going to disagree?
Speaker 3:No, I mean, I agree with that. I think the bit I would add into that is that it's a product of a culture and it's a culture that, when you think about where service came from, it was designed to serve customers need. So I mean, if you use the word subservient there, I probably wouldn't quite go that far, but but there is that thing which was we're there to serve. So, therefore, to lay your stall out in a more aggressive stance, and if you've been in a reasonably sized businesses boardroom, then you have got to fight your corner. And I think there's a cultural thing that says they've been under so much pressure of a cost and that, and even in the relationship they have with bpr and outsource providers, that's usually a cost one which is why we get this sort of dip in service etc. And I think it's having the confidence to go look, we're not a cost to the, we're an enabler of a really good value transaction and then we therefore have a justified seat at the top table. But I think they've got to understand that you've still got to follow some of the mechanics that your co-directors will be battle-wearing using, which is cost-bene benefit case, roi and all of that type of stuff that gets put into building the case for it, and there have been occasions less now, but where it's been.
Speaker 3:Well, we just have to improve things for a customer because that's just the right thing to do. Well, that doesn't work other than at a fairly superficial level. In a board, it's a bit like CSR. So that really bites Then it's something we'll do if we can afford to, but as soon as the pressure comes on, we'll squeeze out of the business. So I think there's a cultural issue. The final bit on this which I think is interesting is when you look at what services got us an opportunity with hybrid, which is to go. We have to challenge management practices. We have to challenge the way in which we understand well-being of colleagues. We have to. There's a real thing where they could push a much wider agenda back into the business and that could be a little bit of a land grab and a credibility grab for people. So that's I think there's an opportunity wrapped in there as well will be my view Really interesting.
Speaker 1:Thank you. So, given both of your track records of service innovation transformation across, if I may say, a few decades, can you share some of your learnings, top tips about how you go about bringing this all together, creating and implementing service as a competitive advantage, how you get that mindset, that capability across the organisation into the operating model and how you embed that in the leadership team?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for me, I think some of it comes back to that. I think I said at the start it's about you know what's the right response with the right person, right place, right time, that whole flexibility and resilient piece. So I think that's what almost you're looking to create within your operating model. I think for me, the biggest thing, lesson I've learned over the years, has been being the art of storytelling. So, actually, the art of storytelling, the art of what's that narrative, the art of what value am I trying to get across, whether that's getting it across to you know, to the teams, to my own teams, you know, to other teams, to my exec colleagues, to, you know, shareholders. You know I've worked for PLC companies, privately owned businesses, plc companies. So I think it's that for me. It's that, as I say, irrespective of what you're trying to achieve, how are you actually telling that narrative and what are the key things you're doing to demonstrate that value and that value to the organization, but equally the value to shareholders and your colleagues?
Speaker 1:okay, uh, so leave us with your final thoughts. Uh, what are your hopes for the future of cx and contact centers?
Speaker 2:simon, I'll let you go.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you very much for that one. I'm actually going to use a little bit of time to think, I know, but there's a little jig in there, I think, which I wanted to add on the end, which is I would not underestimate the power and this is when we all see these series about back to the forum. We all go. Isn't that amazing you go really, is this news to people? And it obviously is news to people In terms of CX and the future, if people remember and remind themselves that bringing the customer alive in the board and for the business, and demonstrating the cost of getting it wrong and the role everybody can play in it and the opportunity of getting it right and the role everybody can play in it, that should be a thing that people are quite obsessed about. So when people talk about being obsessed about the customer, it's bringing it to live in the boardroom and showing the real cost of failure and the opportunity that provides that to me will drive demonstrable change for people within the cx sector. Was that enough time to get?
Speaker 2:it was absolutely no no, and a really good answer, I think for me. You know, actually I think it's an exciting time, don't be wrong, I think it's going to be daunting. I think you know it's just just as you say, the cost of living, recession, um, all of these um terrible challenges um that are going on, actually could be an exciting time actually for leaders in organizations, because it is. It isn't about just doing what we've always done. It isn't going to be about let's just carry on doing what we tried it, you know, at the start of covid and what we might have survived doing, and a lot of people are talking about the fact they've survived. They've not talked about the fact we think we've thrived and, um, you know, actually this is a resilient model going forwards. You know, we're just trying to find our way through well-being, through communication, through all of these things.
Speaker 2:I think for me it's exciting because actually, you know the there's the art of the possible. Let's test things. You know what? There's so much technology out there now. I remember back to when I started home working, as I say, 28, 30 years ago at the RAC. You know technology was appalling, you know it was so difficult, whereas now you know we can stand things up within within a matter of a few hours. We can test it. You know what, if it doesn't work, then fine, it's not cost a lot of money, let's close it down and move to the next thing. I think it's people therefore, not being afraid of testing things. Let's test and learn and move on. If it doesn't work, so and let's test something else. And that, you know, involves the colleagues in in that process. You know they'll have a great, you know a great wealth of ideas and a great wealth of probably. Actually I'm up for testing something different because, you know, it just adds a bit of excitement into what we're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, super Nicola, Simon, fascinating having you with us today. Hope our listeners have found this as insightful as I have. You can find out lots more about the Customer Experience Foundation at cxfoorg. Thank you for joining us today. We hope you can join us next time on CX Diaries.