CX Diaries - with Keith Gait
CX Diaries with Keith Gait is my podcast where I talk to the people at the sharp end of CX and Contact Centres. The Movers and the shakers, the innovators, the disruptors, and the people delivering in the real world who share their personal stories of their journey through our industry
CX Diaries - with Keith Gait
The Art of Simplicity in Customer Experience
Step into the world of customer experience with my latest episode as I chat with Chris Davis, a thought leader in the field. Chris has traversed a fascinating career, recently recognised in the Power 100 list of top CX leaders in the UK.
We explore how leaders can navigate the complex landscape of customer service while aspiring toward simplicity. In these times of profound shifts caused by the pandemic and other global events, Chris offers invaluable perspectives on how to foster strong leadership in your organisation.
Throughout our conversation, Chris emphasises the critical nature of human connections in customer experience, advocating that technology should merely enable, not dictate, customer interactions.
We peel back the layers of what successful organisations have done right, often focusing on mindset rather than technological factors. His experiences illustrate the importance of nurturing employee engagement and valuing insights from frontline staff, ensuring they have a voice in shaping customer service strategies.
Chris also touches on the need for clarity and direct communication within distributed teams and shares personal anecdotes about his leadership style, reflective of the strong values instilled in him from an early age.
In this enlightening discussion, we delve into leadership challenges, the nuances of effective CX strategies, and the role of empathy in creating a positive company culture.
Be sure to check out the YouTube page for the Video version
https://www.youtube.com/@CustomerExperienceFoundation24
Welcome to CX Diaries. Cx Diaries from the Customer Experience Foundation is our podcast where we talk to the people at the sharp end of CX and contact centers, the movers and the shakers, the innovators, the disruptors and the people delivering in the real world who share their personal stories of their journey through our industry. This week, I'm delighted to be joined by Chris Davis. Chris was recently named in our Power 100 list of the top 100 contact centre and CX leaders in the UK and has a long and successful track record of delivery across a wide range of sectors. Chris, welcome, it's a pleasure to have you with us today. Thank you, keith. Pleasure to be here. Amazing to have you so talk to us about your current role. You've obviously done a lot through the industry, but what are you working on at the moment, right now?
Speaker 2:So at the moment I'm with Autoglass, part of the Bell Run International Group, who people will probably know for fixing and replacing windscreens, and I'm assisting at the moment, trying to help them with their field service operation. So outside of contact centres for a change, but still in the world of CX.
Speaker 1:Okay, so how does that differ from some of the things that you've done before and how are you finding CX different from contact centres? I think?
Speaker 2:it's. I mean the geographically dispersed nature of the workforce brings its own challenges, you know, rather than 70 or 80 people in the same building or even, you know, linked by the same telephone system at home, as is more common these days, we've got a thousand people from Inverness to Truro and all points in between. So it does introduce some interesting difficulties regarding communication messages both downstream and back up, but it has its own unique rewards that I don't think you'd find in a contact centre as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you've got a long background, which we'll come on to. Thinking of. The last couple of years particularly obviously, there's been an awful lot of change across society and across our industry. What's what do you think have been the biggest challenges, both for you and the organisations that you've seen over the last two years? Talk to us about that.
Speaker 2:Wow, I think. Talk to us about that. Wow, I think so many of us have been through a problem that has the same core as in global pandemic, cost of living crisis, global conflict, but it's manifested itself in so many different ways I think I think a lot of it has depended on the mindset of the organisation. Keith, I think those that have struggled a bit through this saw all the problems that COVID brought and how difficult it might be to have a home-based workforce and how the lack of face-to-face contact could really damage and hurt. Yet some of the more successful organisations that I've spent some time with in the last couple of years are those that saw those hurdles but had a bigger view of the opportunities and possibilities that this opened up. So I think for every organisation that's really struggled through this, there's been at least one that has thoroughly blossomed and flourished flourished, and one of the key themes or patterns that you've seen there is that technology-led is that service-led, is it people-led, is it C-suite-led?
Speaker 1:What's your take on that?
Speaker 2:Could you repeat that? Sorry, Keith, I do apologise.
Speaker 1:Sorry. What's your take on where, what, where these organizations are being successful? Is that technology led? Uh, is it. Is it c-suite led? Is it people led, service led?
Speaker 2:I, I think, interestingly, I think the technology's probably got the least to do with it. I think strong leadership is coming to the fore at the moment. I think you know that the organizations, again, that I've spent time with in the last couple of years that have really embraced this, it's been much more of a mindset than a technical, technological approach to it. Right, you know, and to be honest, that's been much the case. Throughout my career I've worked in some organizations whose technology has been stellar, it's been outstanding, but if their leadership and their approach to people's not right, it doesn't click, it doesn't gel. I've also worked with organisations whose technological sort of architectures have been little more than bean cans and string tied together. Yet if they've got the right ethos and the right leadership in place, it hums and sings rather than rattles and clangs in place.
Speaker 1:It hums and sings rather than rattles and clangs. Yes, and where do you, where do you feel that comes from, um, and what lessons can we learn from that? In the contact center and cx, these things don't happen by accident, do they?
Speaker 2:they don't know, and the more I've looked for a winning formula in this, get asked this a lot because I've been, you know, self-employed now for about 18 years, which means that you are quite itinerant. You move from company to company and a lot of the times one of the big questions is those companies that have got it right. What's the magic formula, what's the winning combination of things?
Speaker 2:and as much as I'd love to come up with a unique answer, in my experience experience it's the simplest of answers. You know the really great companies that have good cultures, good financial results, you know good market positioning, good market share. They do the basics very well, consistently, and they put it right when they get it wrong. That's it. I don't think there's any more mystique than that. I don't think I've ever. They're also the ones that value and really practice simplicity over complexity. I don't think I've ever been into an organization to try and fix something and the answer has been you actually need more steps in that process. It's not complicated enough. Yeah, it's always about stripping out complexity, not putting it in, and I think that the companies that I have the most admiration for have a make the right decisions and they're not tied up in lots and lots of authorization and approval processes.
Speaker 2:So for me, it's about removing the complexity and really having quite a nice simple, straightforward model, which is why technology plays a little part in it. In my opinion, it's an enabler. You know, I always get nervous because, alongside operational roles, I lead transformations as well. I always get nervous when a transformation is described as it led. In my opinion, I feel transformation should exclusively be business led and it enabled. Yes, and there's a very distinct difference between the two.
Speaker 1:Yes, we'll completely agree with that. As ever, you're being far too modest. Looking back at a lot of the business improvement that you've done, one of the phrases that was invented for you was sprinkling magic dust. You've been to a lot of organisations and one thing that I know from having worked with you and for you back 15-20 years ago was your leadership style, which was very, very prevalent and successful in the contact center. Where did that come from? How did you gain that?
Speaker 2:that's very kind of you to say that. I remember it well, um, and you're doing both of us this service. It was 23 years ago. Can you believe those days in ntl, just around the turn of the century? Uh, great days indeed for me.
Speaker 2:I think leadership's a reflection of character. Um, I was very lucky to have two great parents that brought me up with a lot of good values. You know, I think I've got a strong moral compass. I genuinely care about people and I'd like to think that my leadership approach is a reflection of those character values, rather than anything false or fake or or even, you know, learned or crafted in anybody else's image. I've had some great role models, I've worked with some fabulous people and I've been influenced by a lot of those people, but I still think the core of my leadership style is who I genuinely am as a person, and I think that's something that's quite hard to train.
Speaker 2:You know most of the great leaders I've worked with, it's it's who they are, not what they do, if that makes sense. Yes, it's the way they treat people. You know, from a respect perspective, um, from a collaboration perspective, I don't think I've ever been into assignment and said right, I'm here now. This is how we're going to do things. Yeah, you know my my approach in the first stages of any assignment is listen more than I talk, which, trust me, is extremely difficult in my case, but I try and adopt that one um but but I I seek opinions, I gather opinions, I ask for collaboration, ideas, suggestions, and then I think the leadership element kicks in when it comes to compiling the best of those ideas and said right, I've now got a blueprint, this is the way I'd like us to go fantastic.
Speaker 1:I think that's a lesson that we can all learn from. You've also, alongside the leadership style, deliver results and an amazing track record of delivering service improvement wherever you've been. So, again, as well as the leadership bit, how do you go about, how do you set about achieving that and going about that, and what's changed, you think, over the years in contact centres and how you go about that these days?
Speaker 2:Typically, I do have a bit of a philosophy on this one. Keith, if you have a difficult problem, then I think the key to that is to maybe, you know, involving managers, involving supervisory people, if you have a really difficult problem. Go right to the front line and get the ideas from the people that do the job many many times a day that you can vaguely remember doing 20 years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know when I'm putting together focus groups, action groups, you know seconding people on to transformation programs or even just getting a workshop together about how to improve average handling time or first call resolution, or whatever it may be. I'm really interested in the people that take the calls all day, or make the calls each day. I think they're the ones that have the keys to the kingdom in that sense. And then I think the management role in that is, as I say, compiling, digesting, evaluating and implementing the ideas that the guys come up with. I rarely have a creative or original idea, but what I think I've crafted over the years is an ability to use other people's and make them work effectively.
Speaker 1:Yes, and what do you think? How have you seen contact centres, particularly operations and service delivery, change over the last, particularly five, ten years, or even the last two or three years? Have you seen that?
Speaker 2:change. A lot of the developments, in my opinion, whilst understandable from a commercial point of view, are actually quite sad. I think it's you want to find a phone number to ring a company? These days it's like a treasure hunt. No, find the bit on their website that says here is our phone number. And you're doing really well. You know, you can web chat with people, you can email people, you can go into their FAQs, you can do anything that doesn't't cost very much money. But if you actually want to talk to a human being, I think it's got increasingly difficult. Yeah, and I think that's a shame. I get it, I understand it. I know that there's a need to maintain a competitive advantage and to keep prices down, but I I think there are times and it might be my traditional background in contact centres through the 90s and 2000s but sometimes I think there's only a conversation that gets you where you need to go. Yeah, and no chatbot in the world is going to fill that gap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you touched on it there. So how did you get started in call centres and customer service?
Speaker 2:Well, it was by accident, I suppose there's a lot of people. I don't ever remember a 14, 15 year old me going to the careers officer and saying I want to stick a headset on and talk to people for a living. Um, I wanted to be a footballer. Uh, as a lot of kids my age, and the only thing that stopped me was having nowhere near enough talent to be a footballer. Um, but I got a job. Where would I be? 20 something? I had a few bitsy bobsy jobs in sales in factories. Like lots of people in stoke on trent, I worked in the pottery industry for a couple of years and my first contact center job was with the rac. Um, and that happened because I was working in the bar at Walsall Football Club, which was opposite the contact centre in Walsall, and a lot of the RAC guys used to pop in for a drink after their shift. They happened to mention that they were full-time work going.
Speaker 2:I went to apply and utterly and thoroughly loved it going. I went to apply and utterly and thoroughly loved it and actually in those first six weeks, keith, I learned a great lesson. That's really paid me well through my certainly the leadership element my career. I'd been at the RAC for about six weeks. So I think I'd just come through the academy stage, the nursery stage, and I was shadowing somebody taking calls and the then chairman of the RAC, a guy called Sir Arthur Lodge, came for a visit and he was wandering around a very prestigious guy, friends with Prince Charles and the like, so he was very highly regarded and he came over. He happened to tap me on the shoulder very randomly uh, what's your name, young man? Oh, I'm Chris. How long have you been here? I've been here about six weeks. How are you getting on? Yeah, yeah, really good training it's, you know, prepared me well. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Thank you, thought no more of it.
Speaker 2:Um, I happened to be in london, in the london site, about six months later and I'm walking down the corridor and sir arthur large is walking the other way and he spotted me and he recognized me and he said you're chris, aren't you? I saw you in the best got sign. I'm like wow. And he said yeah, you, I think you were fairly new at the time, so that must have been what six months ago, something like that. How are you getting on now? How are you doing?
Speaker 2:And my chest was bursting with pride in what it was wasn't purely the recognition, is that he remembered my name and I remember thinking one day, if I ever get into a leadership role, I want to make someone feel as proud and as good as he's just made me feel. So I read up on the subject and I tried to learn some sort of NLP techniques for learning names, because it was such a powerful moment, real pivotal moment in my career, and I learned that the more senses that you engage in an introduction process, the more likely you are to remember somebody's name. So if you shake their hand and say their name out loud, you've got touch, you've got hearing and you've got the sight if you look them in the eye. So hi, keith, nice to meet you. Tell me, keith, a bit about yourself.
Speaker 2:And that technique really does anchor and register that person's name in your mind. I've also learned to try and restrict it to three senses, because if you bite them and sniff them, hr usually have something to say about it. But I think that as a technique that's never let me down and I would say you know, a lot of times since people have said, oh gosh, you know my name. It's like, yeah, you told me yeah, but you remembered. Well, it's important and I think that's a really good sort of micro leadership message, that people's names are you. You call somebody by the wrong name, it doesn't half upset them, yeah.
Speaker 1:I can imagine. I'm not particularly good with names. That's a good lesson. So from RAC, how did your career take off?
Speaker 2:RAC. I mean it was. It was a traditional route through the contact centre at that point. So I went through team leader, contact centre manager and then branched out into field-based management and looked after a team of service patrols that then came together in a more general management role where you had a piece of geography, where you look after the contact centre and the service patrols in that region. And from that point I then moved into a succession of permanent roles which ended when I was at O2 looking after their prepay activity and encompassed NTL, of course, where we worked together. So I think my permanent career, which started in the 80s, early 90s and probably ended around 2004, was exclusively really within either contact centre activity or field service activity or a blend of both. 2004 saw me launch into an interim career career. Um, it was a massive risk, to be honest, because I had this job at o2 cracking company to work for really good organization. Um, looking after their site in berry, a big contact center about 850 seats. Um, in an old birthday's warehouse in juma's lane in berry.
Speaker 2:Um and I gave that up for a three-week contract in BBC World Service doing a project management role something I'd never done in a city, I'd never worked in a way of working that I'd never even considered, and I've since realized it was. It was such a massive leap of faith it was. It was literally jumping off a cliff and growing your wings as you come down, and I just had faith that it was the right thing to do, and I've never looked back since. I've had very little time on the bench, as it were, in the last 80 years. Most of the time I did was down to COVID, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what would you say are your biggest achievements? What are you most proud of?
Speaker 2:There's a few, but I'd say that the one that still stands out really is when I was at Clark's in Somerset. So at that point even my early interim work was predominantly contact centre. And an ex-boss of mine, the guy that I worked for at that point even my early interim work was predominantly contact centre and an ex-boss of mine, a guy that I worked for at O2, a guy called Peter Scraton fabulous guy phoned me. We'd stayed in contact down the years and you know a couple of calls a year just to touch base. And he phoned me and said I've got this job. He said I've got this job. Now I'm global logistics director for Clark's.
Speaker 2:There's a distribution center down in Somerset. Um, it's quite unionized. It's not very efficient. Um, the, the workforce, are really disengaged. The management capability down there is really poor.
Speaker 2:And I genuinely thought, keith, he was going to end the sentence with have you got any idea who can help me? And he said how do you fancy it? And I said wait a minute, this is logistics. I don't work in logistics, I work in call centers. And he said something that's never left me. He said for phone calls, read shoeboxes.
Speaker 2:Every other problem is exactly the same. Your skills are entirely transferable, way more than you think they are. I then start from that moment on, I started to think about what I did on a slightly different axis and I started thinking, rather than a contact center or cx specialist, yeah, maybe I should start thinking about myself as somebody who changes things for a living and the vertical sector you're working within is less relevant. Yeah, and that enabled me to have a bit of a broader field of vision about what I wanted to do and also what I was capable of doing. Yeah, to that point, keith, I've had interviews and people have said you don't have a lot of experience in this area, and I'd go, oh, and I try and think about how I could eke it out and amplify the little bit I've got, and they'll say, yeah, no, it's great, isn't it?
Speaker 2:And they go what do you mean? Say, well, I'm not going to be saddled with any of the legacy thinking that people who've probably tried to solve this problem before have done. I'm going to come in, I'm going to poke and prod like a naive child and I'm going to go why'd you do this, why'd you do this? And I've honestly found that probably my most successful moments Clark's being one of them are because of not in spite of my lack of experience in the sector that I'm working. Yeah, I went into Clark's, which is a very traditional ex-manufacturing you know logistics issue and applied contact center thinking to a logistics issue.
Speaker 1:Nobody had ever done that before.
Speaker 2:They'd had a succession of logistics people in who try and hammer the you know perfectly square nut into the obviously evidently round hole, and it didn't fit and I just tried a different technique.
Speaker 2:Who knows if it was going to work or not? It just gelled and resonated and I had had a trio of objectives, any two of which on their own felt quite straightforward, but the combination of the three were really tricky. We had to improve efficiency, with a target set against it. We had to decrease cost, with a target set against it, but against the backdrop of that, we had to increase engagement exponentially. And that's the tricky one that came in. But we did so. You know it took three years, which is a long time for an interim gig, but it was from a very low base and I learned so many lessons there, and a lot of them that still, you know, pay dividends today by reapplying what I learned down at Clarks. But it showed me the transferability of some core skills and approaches and I think that's probably been the biggest lesson and probably why it sticks in my mind as as my proudest achievement.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. That's amazing to hear. As you know as well as I do, not everything always goes right in the contact centre or in our personal lives. So what's the biggest issue you're ever apt to overcome?
Speaker 2:there. Wow, um, I. I often encounter what I've called and I'll explain why, because this sounds strange, but I've often encountered what I call the gordon ramsay syndrome. When you go in as an interim, so yeah, you see ramsay's kitchen nightmares or something. Yeah, and you get the picture.
Speaker 2:You know that this guy rings Gordon Ramsey and says my business is on its knees, I'm about to lose my family legacy. My parents started this and I'm on the verge of bankruptcy. Gordon, you're a renowned expert in this area. Please come in and tell me where I'm going wrong. I really need your help. And Gordon comes in and he'll say OK, I can see what you're doing wrong. You need to trim down and simplify your menu. Your decor needs a little bit of a spruce up. Your maitre d' needs to go on a customer service course.
Speaker 2:And they genuinely look you in the eye and say who the hell are you to tell me how to run my restaurant. Look him in the eye and say who the hell are you to tell me how to run my restaurant? And you say I'm the guy you just called in to tell you how to run your restaurant. I get that quite a lot in interim. So they value your opinion until your opinion doesn't meet theirs, and overcoming that is potentially one of the bigger challenges that you face sometimes quite regularly. Yeah, there are times where I think you know an interim comes in and what people actually want, even if they can't verbalize it, is external validation and support that their ideas are right and they want some wing men to take it to the board with them yes, yes, and it's the skill.
Speaker 1:And this is where interim and consultancy sometimes becomes a bit blurred, isn't it that? The skill, the skill, the skill there is to is to work with the client, um and and and get that engagement right yeah, completely, completely.
Speaker 2:I think you know, the more I get into interim career and potentially the more senior the roles you get, the more of a coaching rather than a teaching style I think you have to adopt. I find myself asking more questions the older and the more experienced I get, rather than giving more answers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you've touched on it a little bit throughout our chat, but what or who have been the biggest influences on your life and career?
Speaker 2:I mean I've been blessed to work alongside for with some astonishing people. Yeah, I've been very blessed and lucky in that sense. You know a few stand out along the way. You know a guy called Jason Sharp that I work with at vodafone, who's you know well known for working at um ovo and first direct was a huge and still is a huge influence on me. Um, I've worked with some just outstanding customer service people claire hill, um, who I work with at ntl, um. Emma dark, who we both know I've worked with again at um uh. Sullivan Stanley, when she was there.
Speaker 2:Um, currently I have a lot of uh work to do with Sharon Boyd, who's my current sort of CX guru. Um, I'm a huge fan of Sharon's work and everything she does. I think she's got the Midas touch in that sense. I think there's two. Keith, if I had to narrow it down to people I've worked for and learned a lot from, it would be a guy we both know from NTL, david Nicholson. David was my first boss at NTL and to this day is probably still the best. He's the governor as far as I'm concerned. You know he had a gentle but commanding nature and presence.
Speaker 2:I never, in my time of knowing him, which was many years, raised his voice. Ever he raised his eyebrow. You'd run for the hills because you'd know you disappointed him and, as we all know, as children and parents, disappointing them is worse than being angry. Um, and the other is a guy called steve lavery. Steve I've worked for a couple of times and with a couple of times steve's customer service director at ald, and I work with steve at vodafone and for steve at ee and at ald and, and you know the guy has the cerebral capacity that I've never quite come across. He can go from stand-in start to expert in any subject in days and he just has this again warm, gentle, natural nature that you just want to emulate. So I'd probably single those two guys out. My current boss is a guy called Simon Blake at ALD. He's fabulous, I think. Two guys out. My current boss is a guy called simon blake at ald. He's fabulous, I think, but in terms of influences at times in my life when I needed it, I would say steven david, fantastic.
Speaker 1:So, as you know, chris, we always like our guests to reflect and help those coming up through the industry today so you can go back to being 25 again. Uh, what advice would you give to younger self?
Speaker 2:invest in bitcoin. Um, it's interesting. I'm I wouldn't really want my career to be anywhere that it isn't, so in some ways, that sounds a very glib and cheesy answer that I don't regret any of the choices I've made that's a very common answer from a lot of our guests, I don't know, and it's an absolute cop out.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to reserve that as my second choice answer. I would I think I'd read a bit more. I think I got out with the reading habit and I found that I started to, in my own way, vegetate a little. I think I discounted the value of balance in your life. A lot of people around 25 30 can do that. They put the foot to the floor and go career, career, career. And by the time they look around it's like where's my wife and kids gone? And you know that happened to me in my first marriage, happened exactly to me too, yeah. So I would say that, you know, despite the ambitious levels and despite the temptation to think it's all about the job, it's all about the job. The 55 year old me that knows that it isn't and that you know, the, the most effective people that I've ever worked with, have that balance.
Speaker 2:They have the ability to say it's five o'clock now, guys, 5 30, I'm sorry, but you know it's my wife's salsa class tonight or it's, you know, my son's rehearsal tonight, or it's my daughter's trampolining practice tonight. So I'm off and I'll see you tomorrow and I do it a bit with the guys in my team. Now you know, if I get a call at nine o'clock at night, my first question is why are you calling me at nine o'clock at night? Not because you're interrupting my night, because this isn't my time, this is yours. Exactly what is so urgent that you're ringing me now that you can't wait until tomorrow morning? And if they say I'm in a hotel and I'm bored and I want to chat, fine. If they say, well, you know, I'm at home, I'll say, well, that's where your head should be, as well as your body yeah, I would completely echo that.
Speaker 1:Uh, so, um, finally, uh, how do I unwind and escape from it all?
Speaker 2:um, tell us a few things about you that people may not know uh, you could never put this in the category of unwinding, but I'm a stoke city supporter because that winds me up something rotten at the moment given our position in the championship. Um, and I'm not. I'm more of a armchair supporter than an active attending supporter, despite the fact I live about a mile from the Stoke city ground as the crow flies. My other big interest at the moment, outside of work, I do quite a lot of executive coaching and I'm currently again exploring transferring that away from corporate world into sports in that away from corporate world into sports, and I have started to provide some mental preparation coaching for a professional boxer.
Speaker 2:Now, this is a guy who used to teach my son years ago when he was at Stafford College, and he contacted me a couple of years ago and said I'm turning professional, but professional doesn't mean I'm earning loads of money out of it, it just means it's my job. So could you help me? Because whilst I've got a great physical coach, I know you do. You know mental preparation coaching and that's probably the weakest part of my game I'm finding I'm going into fights thinking I'm going to lose Guess what, guess what happens. So I said yeah, of course you know, and we've worked together for quite some time now and he's gone now to the point where he is the IBO title holder middleweight and is in the top 10 in the UK. A guy called Nathan Heaney Amazing, and he.
Speaker 1:That must make you feel really proud.
Speaker 2:You must get a lot of satisfaction, massively. It's a huge. You know, it's probably my biggest outside of work interest at the moment, and I mean he's a very, very easy subject. I mean the guy is an absolute machine, to be honest. His dedication and his commitment to being the best at what he does is huge. But hopefully we'll be rewarded this year with a title fight at the Bet365 stadium in Stoke.
Speaker 2:So you know, first time I saw Nathan, I think there was about 60 people in the King's Hall in Telford. This will be in front of about 25,000 people in a football stadium. So it's been a big journey in the last couple of years. And outside of that I have two older children, connor and Noni, who are in their 20s, and two younger children, sophie and Max, who myself and my wife Izzy adopted. They both have quite significant additional needs. So they they are, you know, equally um delightful and challenging, and the the balance between those two isn't always exact. You know, they are fabulous, they teach so much and they give you so much, but they are also quite demanding. So that takes up a fair chunk of any time that we have left is looking after those guys as well.
Speaker 1:And that's an incredible thing to do, isn't it? So yeah, chris, it's been fascinating having you with us today. Hope our listeners have found this as insightful and engaging as I have. You can find out lots more about the Customer Experience Foundation at cxfoorg. We thank you for joining us at the Customer Experience Foundation today and we hope you can join us next time on CX Diaries.