CX Diaries - with Keith Gait
CX Diaries with Keith Gait is my podcast where I talk to the people at the sharp end of CX and Contact Centres. The Movers and the shakers, the innovators, the disruptors, and the people delivering in the real world who share their personal stories of their journey through our industry
CX Diaries - with Keith Gait
Why Thoughtful Technology is Key to Great Customer Experience
As customer-centricity continues to dominate conversations in the business world, Therese Charlton joins me in this engaging episode of CX Diaries to share her invaluable insights from over three decades in customer experience.
Travelling through her professional journey, she sheds light on her current role at Manchester Airport, where she is focused on enhancing passenger experience through strategic technology use. Therese dives into the challenges and intricacies of effectively implementing technology in service environments, advocating for a thoughtful approach that prioritises customer needs above the pursuit of the latest trends.
Throughout our discussion, Therese articulates the importance of tailored technology that creates a seamless Omni-channel experience. By putting herself in the shoes of customers, she understands the operational nuances that significantly impact their journey.
The conversation takes an interesting turn as Therese cautions against falling for the 'shiny object syndrome' that can unwittingly derail customer service goals. Her practical insights are complemented by personal anecdotes that reflect various turning points in her career, especially her belief in the importance of nurturing relationships and leveraging networks in the ever-evolving CX landscape.
This episode is packed with wisdom for both budding professionals and seasoned veterans in the field of customer service. Drawing from her rich blend of operational knowledge and personal experiences, Therese imparts a resonating message about adaptability and growth in one’s career. As she closes on a note of encouragement, listeners are reminded that success is not reserved for specific titles but is rooted in the quest for skills and valuable connections.
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https://www.youtube.com/@CustomerExperienceFoundation24
Welcome to CX Diaries. Cx Diaries from the Customer Experience Foundation is our podcast where we talk to the people at the sharp end of CX and contact centers, the movers and the shakers, the innovators, the disruptors and the people delivering in the real world who share their personal stories of their journey through our industry. This week I'm delightedly joined by Therese Charlton. Therese is currently working as a CX consultant and has worked in customer service and experience roles for all her career, all three decades of it in operational, strategic and leadership roles, also with a period of time running a boutique recruitment agency specialising in CX leadership. Therese, welcome, it's a pleasure to have you with us today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Keith. I really appreciate being invited.
Speaker 1:Great, so you just started a new role at Manchester Airport. Tell us all about that, tell us about the challenges there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I joined the MAG group of airports so that's Stansted, manchester and East Midlands around three months ago on a consultancy piece of work, and my role there is to ensure that there is thoughtful application of the technologies available in the airport to improve the passenger experience. Like many industries and I'm sure we'll get on to touch on it later technology we're blessed with so many more options than when I started in my career, but I'm a passionate believer it's the thoughtful application of those that is the real prize in the organisation, not just buying the latest shiny thing. So my job is to make sure the latest shiny thing isn't what happens and that it puts the customer at the forefront of the considerations when they implement IT.
Speaker 1:And that thoughtful application. What does that bring that to life for us? What does that look and feel like? What should we be avoiding?
Speaker 2:What should we be avoiding? So generally not particularly airport specific I would say it's how you apply technology, not necessarily what. So it's not things to avoid, and it completely depends on your customer base as to what you deploy and how you deploy it. So the first thing I would say is that it needs to be tailored for your organization, and I would also say that it needs to be an omni-channel, end-to-end experience and people use the term omni-channel so much at the moment, but it basically means you have to put yourself in the shoes of the customer and you have to step through the application of that technology. So, to some degree, you have options of different technologies you can put through, and there's not necessarily a wrong or a right, but for me, it's testing that that works, how you think that should work, um, and I'm really passionate about that.
Speaker 2:So, when it comes to awards for technology or awards for organizations, I don't think they should ever be given without the test of the. This is what we think happens in the contact center. This, this is what we truly set out and intend to do for our customers. But we also need to make sure that's not the emperor's new clothes story and we truly test what actually happens and how that feels, not just for the customer on the receiving end of that technology but also for the teams who are dealing with people coming in and out of that omni-channel experience. So, in terms of the, the front line, how does it feel to get somebody who's just come through that technology experience and arrives with you and you know, for example, the real classic of? Do you keep having to repeat your information?
Speaker 1:yes, and that phrase emperor's new clothes is one that I've heard an awful lot through our round tables, um over the last few months, where um clients are being carpet bombed by vendors trying to sell them chat, gpt applications, etc. Um and that's um. And then what they're saying is well, you're giving me problems to solution, you're giving me solutions to problems. I haven't got Exactly, and we've seen other organizations just decide to take out 20, 30 percent of cost and replace it with AI. But the point on that is and I'll be really interested in your views technology isn't free and technology rarely pays for itself in the in in the first year. Um, what's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:so I think again it's about the problem you have is the longevity of the people who make the buying decisions. So if they are buying the latest thing that can look really good, um, especially when some of that, that magpie behavior of buy the new shiny things, can come from an executive level. You know they, they can see stuff and say, well, I mean, how many times do people say, well, why don't you have what amazon have? You know, because you're you're a small sme in south wales that doesn't have. So people have got you know the, the champagne ambition, but with the, with the shandy budget.
Speaker 2:So I think that sometimes you are pressured from above to make those decisions that says bring in the shiny new thing.
Speaker 2:And if you're going to be in an organization for two, three years, that's OK, but if you truly believe you've got a career in the organization, you should be choosing technology solutions that are durable, and I think that is a real challenge for an organization.
Speaker 2:It's this new person that's come in that wants to make their mark with this new technology, just implementing something they've seen work somewhere else or think should work somewhere else.
Speaker 2:And it's very hard to unpick that when you're making decisions that doesn't get looked at in sort of vendor selection, and I think the problem is that once you've bought one thing, if you think of it as a finite pot of money because it is if you've bought one thing, you have to make sure that one thing you bought makes the biggest difference, because who's to say in changing times that the next thing, particularly down the automated route, it could be?
Speaker 2:It's a little bit like do you buy the first version of a video recorder back in the day or do you wait until that technology is embedded and then it'll be cheaper, tested and critically important? You'll have some really good case studies about what has worked and what hasn't worked, because as much technology falls away as is invented. You know, each time you've got a new shiny thing, something's fallen off, um, and it's just that. That's why I say thoughtful application, to think is this something durable, is it something modular, does it fit into that omni-channel design or is it just a thing that right now is a fashionable thing to do?
Speaker 1:really really interesting. Completely agree with that very insightful and your previous roles prior to um. You were in smart metering for quite a while you had.
Speaker 2:You were there quite a long time yes, so um I think, the more in your career you go through the more you, you, or the less you follow a very structured career path, the more it's network, and I think you know later on, when you ask me about sort of what would you tell your younger self, it's the value of that network, um, and a piece of advice that my dad gave me, um, and which was always treat people on the way up as though you're going to meet them on your way down. And that was just his how he behaved anyway as a person, not necessarily business advice, and I think that that that has been really interesting in how we learn from each other and how we get opportunities. So, to loop back to the smart metering was purely. I went to a reunion of BT which was 20 years since we'd opened a contact center for BT and amazingly and it was a it was a brand new site, so literally it was a building site. When we arrived and there's something about building from scratch and putting a hard hat on and my claim to fame was putting the mouse mat on 750 desks the night before at one o'clock in the morning to open up the next day for agents to come in there's something really special when you do something from from that build.
Speaker 2:So 20 years later at the union, there were 70 people from the period of time that BT had been open and one of them was working in smart metering as a CEO. And I said I've just finished a contract. And they said, oh, can you come and do some recruitment? I went, no, no, no, no, I don't do that anymore. I'm pure operational customer. Could you come and do it for a couple of days a week? And before you knew it, I got into, I was asked to look at the contact center, to do a service review, to do a target operating model. Then, um, there was a need for a head of customer experience role, which I scoped and then mapped out what that experience should be. And before you know it, you're nearly five years down the line yeah, really, really interesting.
Speaker 1:Um, you worked in recruitment for a while and indeed ran your own agency. How did that come about? A bit of a sideways move.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it is and it isn't, because I think that people are the lifeblood. We've talked about technology, but for me, people are the lifeblood of the culture of the company. I don't know how that's going to work in the future, as we do increase the AI element, because there is still a human touch. Um, you know, we are dealing with humans, we have got humans dealing with humans and, and so the careful selection of who you choose to represent you has always been something that, when I was operational, I thought was really important. Um, and I found that my experience with recruiters wasn't very positive. Found that my experience with recruiters wasn't very positive, and particularly when you work in a customer orientated, if you're a customer focused person, you've got a level of empathy and you can often collide with recruiters Because, at the end of the day, they're not paid to find you a job, they're paid to find people for the role. But I think, from a customer service point of view, if you phone someone, they phone you back. If you leave a message, they reply back. Some basic ways to deal with people and also just being really creative with how you find people and how you select people. So when I was in operational role. I kind of was quite critical of the other side of the fence in recruitment and I went for a role in a contact centre and I said to the recruiter yep, the role is okay, but it's not really reaching my heart. And he said would you fancy setting up a recruitment business for me and just trialling it in the northwest? And I got made redundant on a Friday and I split with my husband on the Saturday. It was kind of pre-arranged, but he left the house on the Saturday and it meant that I couldn't do the mortgage until I got a job. So I was offered the job in recruitment on a Monday. So when people talk about career paths, sometimes just stuff collides. So, offered the job in recruitment on the Monday and I thought, well, actually it's something new, it's something refreshing. It doesn't require all the bank holiday working, the out of hours, the traveling, and now I'm a you know mum with two young kids. Um, so maybe I try that. And what better place to be then looking for a job if it doesn't work out? So place to be then looking for a job if it doesn't work out? So so again, it's just one of those things that happens.
Speaker 2:Um, and network came in again and how you treat people came in again and that's where it's. All I had to do is phone up the people I'd worked with in contact centers for the last 20 years and say I'm in a bit of a spot. You don't have to pay until I find you somebody who's perfect and stays. Will you let me do your recruitment?
Speaker 2:And I guess the way that I operated was not from a job description mapped to a CV. It was truly understanding what those roles do and I think that was the why I ended up doing it 18 months later for myself and doing that for almost 10 years, because when you've worked in a contact center, you know that the chances of you reading your job description after you actually start um in a highly reactive environment are very, very slim. So it's about, for me, matching um, not just the role but matching the culture, particularly culture, I think is really important. So finding um and it's horses for courses, you know it's finding the candidate that matches the company. It isn't. You know that that's where I would personally choose to be.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so that's that's and I liked recruitment. It's meeting lots of lovely people like you, who I met through my recruitment and you know, talking to people in the industry it's not just about interviewing, it is keeping. It was very indulgent because I got to go and look around a lot of contact centers, because I always used to say I don't want to recruit anyone into something that I haven't seen. I can't do your match if I've not seen your contact center, um. So I always would see contact centers and it was just honestly, I would do that for free, um, and I loved doing that and I learned so much from seeing so many different contact centers, so I so that's what kept me in it, but it wasn't my true love.
Speaker 1:My true love was still back into the operational roles so you've done quite a lot of operational roles um through the years and what would you say your approach is and your leadership style and engaging with people, how do you, how do you go about that?
Speaker 2:there's no place for ego in contact centers. So you're all paid a salary and then you all walk through the door and then you all do the job that that salary is matched to. So I'm I try to avoid any kind of hierarchical type approach to stuff, because the job that we're doing, we're all an expert in that, so the frontline are an expert in being the frontline. There's a big sort of school of thought that says that if you're in a contact center you should go on the front line every so often, and in some organizations that I've worked I just don't have the knowledge to do that properly and well. So if it's um, so and so I would always do it.
Speaker 2:If it's something like child line, I'm not scared of speaking to customers, but I'm not trained in how to use the systems. So it's actually not going to instill confidence in the front line when they see me fluffing it up. Yeah, if it's for fun, and if it's, can you do this or can you do that, then absolutely. If it's an escalation, then absolutely. Um, but probably someone's driving the machine of the, of the um, the systems. But I just think you should be prepared. You shouldn't ask anyone to do anything you're not prepared to do yourself um. But everybody else got a different role and and I also think that I guess where I moved on from operational roles was that Emperor's New Clothes story again that you know, senior people would say this is what I want to do, we want to go through that call guide in that time five times, plus all the people that then don't get through that so instantly.
Speaker 2:When I would see a plan for marketing campaigns or service plans, I would think if you spent enough time at the front line you should be able to turn that around really quickly in your head. That does the numbers that said, will that work or not round really quickly in your head. That does the numbers that said will that work or not? And for me, all this technology you do all the um, the people development, recognition, absolutely everything gets judged with that interaction, currently between two people and in the future, probably more likely with tech, with a person. So that's what, where you have to keep your focus at all times. It doesn't matter what your job is, the the proof of the pudding is in the eating and it's that interaction that takes place and that's why I'm passionate about checking that interaction yeah, amazing um.
Speaker 1:Talk about how you got started in customer service and call centers. Talk us through your your journey through the industry from the early stages. I understand your first job was in a pub 42 years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my first job was in a pub and I kind of fell into that. Again. There's a lot of falling, isn't there? So I fell into that because my dad drank in that pub and found out there was a job and maybe didn't want to finance me forever, so I started it's a surprisingly familiar story, yeah that pub and found out there was a job and maybe didn't want to finance me forever.
Speaker 1:So, um, so I started writing me familiar story.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, he said that, um, so he got me a job in the local pub originally when I was 14, because you could back then um, and I actually really liked it. And I really liked it for the same reason that I've really liked all the jobs I've done in my career, which is it's interacting with people, it's having a little bit of fun while you're doing it and it's providing a service. I think I'm just inbuilt to like serving people. I don't find it. I don't find it. Um. You know, some people think it's a bit subservient. I think it's just helping people. So you're either a helpful person or you're not. You know I am all there's. If someone's looking for a car parking space and I can see one, the next thing is I'm guiding them to a parking space. I just can't help it. It's it's in me. So you might as well get paid for what you like doing. Um, and yeah, I think that probably the pub job was one of my favorites from the beginning, um, but yeah, I moved on then to go through sort of a classical educational route through uni and um originally.
Speaker 2:I don't think anyone at that time knew about contact centres and certainly nobody was saying I want to work in a contact centre. So my aspirations as a child were to be a firefighter well, fireman and they didn't even have them then and I was five foot two All things that are now open and options, but weren't at the time. And then my second option was to be a translator in the EU. So I did European businesses and languages. So I came out still wanting to work in a European environment, but I had no idea which sector and they moved us around within my graduate program and I landed in the import export department running a very small I guess what you would call contact center now, because it was three or four people dealing with international orders.
Speaker 2:Contact center now, because it was three or four people dealing with international orders. And then I stayed in that organization for seven years and I was so lucky because the standard of customer service in that organization was second to none. It was a premium price but premium service. If the customer asks for something, you do it. Organization. And that's where I really. I said recently to someone who worked with me at the time that's where I really. I said recently to someone who worked with me at the time that's where I cut my teeth on what the standard of customer service should be. And he said no, you've all, you've always had that. So I just think I found my match for that, that in those seven years and in that time I went from being a team leader to an operations manager, to a head of department and and got a vast amount of different experiences.
Speaker 2:And at the time it wasn't called the contact center industry, I just worked for the industry, which was more logistics and electronic, electrical components. But in actual fact I was working in the contact center industry before it had a name, so they called it telesales at the time, and then it went to telephone account management and at one point my team was referred to as teleladies. Yes, back in the day they were 50% male and technically qualified, but there was that perception back in. And so that far back in the organization, which I think shows to the credit of the people of that generation, if you like that the organisation is now professionalised and has amazing you know the CX Foundation and other. You know there were no qualifications at that point. It's changed massively and it's heartwarming to see that. Yes, of course you'll see the occasional sitcom, but you see that on every. You know we should count ourselves lucky that sitcoms are interested.
Speaker 1:Yes, amazing. And what are you most proud of? Through your career, you would have done a lot of things. What are you most proud of? Um?
Speaker 2:I think I'm most proud of the fact that I left everywhere better than I found it, um, and I'm if I do a second one um the when I did have that difficult time where I got made redundant and I went into recruitment. That's when you find out what people really think about you. Because, again, when you're senior running a big contact centre, however much you want to come over as a member of the team, um, yes, they'll do surveys once a year that mark your new leadership and stuff. But if it's, and if they met you in the pub, would they buy you a pint? That doesn't get asked on the, on the uh, on the surveys, and would you help them if they needed it?
Speaker 2:And I just found so much warmth came back from previous colleagues that apparently I'd done stuff I didn't remember that I've done, that had helped them or things that I'd said along the way, and and it just came back in spades. And I think that happens in all industries, but I think our industry it happens even more. I think we're a really lovely bunch of people yeah, I, I would uh completely agree with that.
Speaker 1:What's, um, perhaps the biggest issue you've ever had to overcome? Has it got tough?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, but don't you think like if you're in operations, every day is going to be a bit tough and that's the fun, it's like it's. You know, working in operations is like doing some kind of Sudoku every day, you know, let's try and work out this, let's try and, and that's where the adrenaline comes from and that's sometimes where the weakness comes in, because you don't become strategic, you just become really really good at firefighting. Um, so I guess I must really love it, because I don't particularly remember the days. I remember a report coming out that said that of the 1300 agents on my shift that it looked like that people were falsifying the figures to get bonus, and it looked like 50 people were and I was advised to suspend them while we investigated and I said my gut is telling me, I know this report tells me one thing, but my gut is telling me that that isn't the case, that I would know. And if I and if that's my answer you have to suspend me first and then investigate them, because once you suspend them, you break that trust.
Speaker 2:Um, and I think I mean at the time I was about 28, 29 and I just acted on gut and I think that that gut is something that I've always relied on, and your brain catches up later to tell you why you thought that was a good idea. But at the time I was like no, suspend me. And my manager's like obviously not, because I trust you. And I went, yeah, but you can't. You can't do this. So I think that was probably one of the the hardest things I had to do, and sure enough the report wasn't right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, interesting, yeah, fairly standard week sometimes, isn't it?
Speaker 2:You would have met some great leaders along the way who have been the biggest influences on your life and career that first organization that I worked in for the seven years there was a standard of professionalism that was consistent across the senior team and the expectations therefore of you fitting into that um were high expectations and um, that's where I kind of learned my craft and that's where I felt very comfortable, and so my level of professionalism has always in organizations, has always been matched against that um. And at the time there was um, the sales director that I worked for when we had the um telephone account management team, um, and I asked him if he'd be my mentor and he was a good few rungs above I think he was two rungs above at the time at the time and just as I asked him he was actually promoted to md.
Speaker 2:So the next thing is the md is my mentor and I'm like, okay, um, and he cut me a deal that said you, I'll be your mentor if you're my mentor, because I come across in a very rigid style and everyone's too scared to give me feedback but I don't think you are I went, okay, and then he taught me all the stuff that he knew and and so my first ever business case that I wrote and he red penned it, um, and he showed it to me when he but these were the times where you'd have to book an appointment with his pa, sit in a holding room, go in at the appointed time, sit, you know, at a very big desk quite an intimidating situation. And then he opened this, this report that was in paper and had read all over it, and he did the first page and he and then he stopped and he said I'm doing this for your own good. Every, if you do this, your business case will slide through the board, but it's going to be painful. And then he did the second page and then I was like okay, okay, okay, and I thought I was like looking like I was taking on board the feedback really well, um, and I don't think I was, because on the third page he shut it and he went I don't think you can take any more of this. And I was like I can, I really can, um, and I genuinely believe it. I'm just disappointed, um.
Speaker 2:So I learned so much from that. I learned that if you really want feedback, you have to look like you want it right, even if it's making you cry inside because people will stop um and so. And feedback is you know. You know they say it's a gift and it doesn't feel like one at a time, but it genuinely is, um, and if it's not a gift, it's a real insight. You know, if it's not about changing how you're doing it, it's about understanding the impact of what you're doing. And then he massively upskilled me in that business case and the board did go through and I always in my head when I'm writing stuff, imagine is this good enough to pass to Martin? And it's an acid test. So I think what's really important in that is we're talking about something that happened 30 years ago now, but those early experiences for people in the workplace are so critical and I think as leaders we need to make that leap back, for things probably haven't changed.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's amazing. So, as you know, we always like to ask our guests to reflect and help those coming up through the industry so you can go back to being 25 again. What advice would you give to your younger self?
Speaker 2:So I have four children, the youngest of which is nearly 25. And I do try to pass on information that I believe would be useful and it's not always particularly listened to, and I think that's for good reason. I think that that was said of my generation and every other generation going back to, probably. I think Pluto had something to say about it, plato had something to say about it, even Pluto probably too. Um, but um, I think what I would say is it's going to be all right.
Speaker 2:So everything, everyone's on a personal journey and things can go wrong, but it'll be all right. So everything, everyone's on a personal journey and things can go wrong, but it'll be all right. You know, you will find your way through difficult times. You will find your way through redundancies. You will find your way through a boss being difficult. Um, you are not in competition with your peer group.
Speaker 2:I still think at 25, people look sideways. They still talk about school years I don't ask you what school year you were in, but at 25 they do still have that reference point and it's a very competitive world, and I think you know that social media is making that even worse and that people who are then either buying flats or moving on. Just look focus on yourself at 25. And what I, what I've tried to say to people through the recruitment world is don't worry too much about your job title and where you're working, gather a bag of skills and experiences. So, although I've worked for however many years, I haven't had the same year twice. So my bag is really full. And when it comes to consultancy, I think when have I done that before? And I pull a different thing out of the bag. So I would just say create your network and create your bag and don't worry, because it will be all right amazing.
Speaker 1:Um, and finally, how do you unwind and escape from it all? Uh, tell us a few things about you. We might not know from looking at your LinkedIn profile.
Speaker 2:Oh so I've, I've, um, I've done the middle-aged woman thing of getting into gardening, and I think that's a little bit like the answer as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've done the middle-aged woman thing of getting into gardening, and I think that's a little bit like the answer as well yeah, and I've analyzed why that is, and I think it's because when you work in a service organization and when you bring up four kids and then they leave home, you've got all that care and nowhere for it to go, and for the one child that's left at home, they don't want all of that care fully enough. So you? So you get sent out of the house on a regular basis and you find yourself in the garden, and then you might as well do something while you're there, um, but I tend to try to be a little bit more fun than that. So at the moment I'm working um at the airport.
Speaker 2:As I say um, I can see the runway from my desk. It's very tempting, um. So my model for um, the next part of my working life, is to earn the money in one building and spend it as fast as I can in the next one. Now I basically will go anywhere. I get a buzz telling me what's the cheap flights, and I go as often as I could possibly can amazing, Therese.
Speaker 1:It's been fascinating having you with us today. I hope our listeners have found this as great as I have. You can find out lots more about the Customer Experience Foundation at cxfoorg. We thank you for joining us today and we hope you can join us next time on CX Diaries.