CX Diaries - with Keith Gait
CX Diaries with Keith Gait is my podcast where I talk to the people at the sharp end of CX and Contact Centres. The Movers and the shakers, the innovators, the disruptors, and the people delivering in the real world who share their personal stories of their journey through our industry
CX Diaries - with Keith Gait
Why Outsource to Africa? Spoiler: It's About More Than Money!
In this engaging podcast episode, we dive into the dynamic world of customer experience (CX) outsourcing with Martin Roe, the CEO of CCI Global.
With three decades of experience, Martin shares his perspectives on why Africa stands out as a premier destination for CX services, highlighting the vital role of emotional intelligence and cultural nuances in customer interactions. As traditional models of outsourcing evolve, Africa's unique attributes - particularly its pool of emotionally intelligent, educated professionals - position it as a strong competitor in the global market.
We explore the significance of impact sourcing and its positive implications for communities across the continent. Martin discusses Careerbox, an initiative aimed at training and empowering underprivileged individuals, leading to high-performance outcomes that benefit both employees and the companies that employ them. He also predicts the rise of East Africa as an emerging hub for outsourcing, pointing to the wealth of talent and resilience in countries like Kenya.
As we navigate through industry trends, we highlight how businesses are increasingly turning to Africa for outsourcing needs that require complex emotional engagement, especially as automation takes over simple transactional roles. This shift reflects a growing commitment among brands to foster genuine customer relationships, making this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of customer experience offshore.
Be sure to check out the YouTube page for the Video version
https://www.youtube.com/@CustomerExperienceFoundation24
Welcome to CX Diaries. Cx Diaries from the Customer Experience Foundation is our podcast where we talk to the people at the sharp end of CX and contact centers, the movers and the shakers, the innovators, the disruptors and the people delivering in the real world who share their personal stories of their journey through our industry. This week, I'm delighted to be joined by Martin Rowe. Martin is a CEO of CCI Global, a leading CXBPO in Africa. He has had over 20 years experience in the outsourcing industry, both in senior and commercial roles across the UK, us, india, egypt and Africa, gaining a deep understanding of the industry from both the commercial and client perspective. Prior to his time as CEO, martin served as Managing Director for CCI's recruitment arm, careerbox, playing an integral role in the organisation's establishment as a pre-eminent recruitment, impact, sourcing and skills development organisation focusing on young underprivileged people across Africa. Organisation focusing on young underprivileged people across Africa. And as CEO, martin has overseen CCI's strategy development to become the largest outsourcing provider in sub-Saharan Africa. Martin, welcome Pleasure to have you with us today. That's quite an extensive background.
Speaker 2:Well, it's a pleasure to be here, Keith, and I wish it was only 20 years in the industry. It's actually 30 years in the industry.
Speaker 1:All right, okay, so talk to us a little bit about CCI, how you're contributing to the BPO space for listeners that don't know much about you.
Speaker 2:Okay, so CCI is a full service CXO business been around since 2006,. Started in Durban in South Africa in 2006, servicing the UK market, so a pioneer in the South African space way back when. Subsequently, we've grown quite a bit. We're now in about eight sites eight sites in South Africa, in Durban, Joburg and Cape Town. We're in three sites in Kenya, in Nairobi, and then a site each in Ethiopia, in Rwanda and in Ghana. So, as you say, it makes us the largest CXO business in Africa. So our operations are in Africa, but our clients and their customers are in English speaking countries. So the UK, of course, but also Australia and the US. So yeah, I guess we're the pioneers in African outsourcing.
Speaker 1:Okay, so obviously African outsourcing is very big at the moment. So, as an Africa-focused CX provider, what would you say are some of the reasons why South Africa in particular, or Africa more generally generally, might be better positioned to support those buyer demands from the UK brands?
Speaker 2:In a word, it's the people. So it's the availability and accessibility of highly educated people who can talk to English-speaking consumers with high degrees of empathy. So what Africa is is not a high volume, low value transactional geography where you would outsource because it's low labour cost and arbitrage although that's a benefit that you get anyway People in Africa can talk to consumers in the UK about complex and emotional things. So if you think about things that are complicated and emotional, and often both complicated and emotional at the same time, africans, we believe, can do that better than other markets and, dare I say, even onshore, given how difficult it is to hire people. And by complicated and emotional I mean driving outcomes such as sales conversion or net promoter score or customer retention those things that are really really important to British companies but require high degrees of EQ. And we think Africa more broadly, particularly the countries that we're in, have got huge numbers of people that can do that kind of activity better than perhaps even onshore and certainly better than other offshore geographies.
Speaker 1:And what do you feel makes the African population particularly strong and that EQ, that critical thinking skill set?
Speaker 2:I think that, as a general culture, there's a thing called Ubuntu in Africa, and specifically in South Africa, which is about a togetherness, which is about a family feel, and you know there's lots of African proverbs that are sort of globally famous about going together to go far and so on. And I think, deep at a cultural level, africans are much more emotionally connected people and that manifests itself in a contact center environment, not just being nice to consumers but actually caring about the outcome, which is absolutely vital. So I think that's part of it. I think, naturally, because of you know, the kind of unfortunate circumstances of many African countries there's had very and unfortunate circumstances of many African countries there's had very, very high degrees of resilience. So these people are tough and therefore working in a contact center is tough, so they can maintain that exceptional emotional, outgoing nature whilst at the same time with high levels of resilience. And then, underpinning that is, in most of the countries in in anglophone africa, where we're specialists, um, people are highly educated and they're highly educated in a, in a to, in an english or a british style curriculum often, and therefore they kind of speak english, write english in a way that's proper.
Speaker 2:And then I guess the fact. The final thing about africans is they just get it at a cultural level. So they get sarcasm and irony and they understand at a cultural level the way consumers behave in mature markets like the US and the UK. Undeveloped, that's not the case. It's developing for sure, but they have consumer markets, they buy insurance and they buy products and services exactly the same way that consumers do in the developed world. So all of those things combined are a perfect recipe for being able to deliver those outcomes net promoter score and so on.
Speaker 1:So let's address the issue of cost. It was a comment that I picked up recently in our community was well, if it wasn't any cheaper, nobody would go to South Africa. And it is all about cost, and another organisation that we're close to need to take out an awful lot of cost in their business and decide that they're going to South Africa. So what would you say to that?
Speaker 2:I think cost saving is absolutely important and is delivered in African markets. So that's kind of a given. We don't believe and we don't see people's primary decision making being driven just by cost. Cost always important, always important, always important and arguably at the moment is more important than it's been for for some years, but it's not more important than the delivery of outcomes, right? So nobody's going to outsource integral and important parts of their business retention, for example, um, just because it's cheap.
Speaker 2:Uh, that's not the people, that people don't do that, and our view, view is that is the African value proposition, that complex and emotional work type which actually has real intrinsic value to companies. Because, let's face it, high volume, low value, transactional activity has already been automated and if it hasn't, generative AI will be automating it pretty damn soon. So cost is important, but we don't believe it's the primary factor for people choosing South Africa first of all. But, that said, the cost advantages are very substantial indeed and you know, for those familiar with the Philippines, for example, it's price comparative with the Philippines, so it is also low cost but also very high value.
Speaker 1:Yeah, also, esg has become a major area of interest and almost a demand and hygiene requirement for many businesses. How are you at CCI addressing that?
Speaker 2:So 10 years ago we started an organisation that you mentioned at the beginning called Careerbox. Careerbox is a non-profit company within the CCI group and we formed it 10 years ago to test the hypothesis, which was are people that are chronically underemployed in South Africa unemployable, because unemployment rates in South Africa are horrific 50-60% for certain cohorts in society? So are those people unemployable because unemployment rates in South Africa are horrific 50, 60% for certain cohorts in society? So are those people unemployable, or is it something else?
Speaker 2:And what we recognized 10 years ago is not only are they not unemployable, but they have, if you help them, got the potential to be the highest performing BPO advisors and managers on an ongoing basis in the world. So Careerbox is our non-profit impact sourcing engine that sits at the heart of CCI, and almost everybody that works for us today joined us through an impact sourcing model. And what impact sourcing is is purposefully and deliberately hiring from disadvantaged groups. Is purposefully and deliberately hiring from disadvantaged groups. It's not charity, because those people in our examples have been super high performing people and have been the rocket fuel that have fueled our growth but purposefully hiring those people. And for us today, 75% of our total employee base, including leadership, were hired via that mechanism 10 years ago.
Speaker 2:So for us, esg isn't a tick box exercise. We recognize that it's become increasingly important for some organizations, but for us it's at the very core of what we do. We are an impact sourcing organization where most people came via that model, an impact sourcing organization where most people came via that model, and my view, as I'm getting on a bit after 30 years, is one of the people that we hire by a career box will eventually become the ceo. That's the kind of vision that we have. Um, all we have to do is give them the tools and the skills and enable them to grow. So for us it it's really important. Outside of CCI, almost all of the markets we're in are de facto developing countries and therefore have high levels and chronic levels of unemployment, therefore high levels of previously disadvantaged, high large numbers of previously disadvantaged people. So Africa is, if you're interested in impact sourcing in ESG is the first place you should be looking.
Speaker 1:Okay, that sounds absolutely fantastic, Thank you. You also mentioned there you're expanding into other areas, other geographies, outside of just South Africa, particularly Kenya, ethiopia, rwanda. What's your view on those becoming the next big CX delivery spaces? On those?
Speaker 2:becoming the next big CX delivery spaces. So we're certain that the next big thing is East Africa and at the heart of that is Kenya. We've got 4,000 people in Kenya today. We started in Kenya in 2016, beginning of 2017. And even with the COVID issue that came a couple of years ago, we're at 4,000 FTEs and we'll double that over the next 24 months. Something like that.
Speaker 2:All of the characteristics and attributes that South Africa has, they also have in Kenya. I think there's a debate to be had, but my view is it's equal to or better than that you can get in South Africa. The levels of education are slightly higher. As an example, almost 100% of our employees in Kenya are university graduates from accredited universities and quite a lot of those graduates are in science, technology, engineering and math. So we think that East Africa is definitely the next big thing and I think that Nairobi stroke Kenya first and then some of these other countries next.
Speaker 2:So we're in Rwanda. We're servicing bilingual French and English in Rwanda. Very highly educated workforce again, 100% graduates. Very similar situation in in Ethiopia almost no attrition in in in these countries, sort of one percent per month attrition. In Kenya, which is, in our mind, developed, less than 1% a month attrition in these other markets and very bright people who can hit the ground running. We think beyond that, ghana. So we think that the West African market is beginning to open up, but that's probably two years away from getting to any critical scale and over time other countries in Africa are becoming more and more interesting as they recognize, I suppose, the capability to create large numbers of jobs for young people quite quickly. But to answer your question directly, kenya's next and then the rest of East Africa soon after that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay, thinking more globally and with the UK brands as well, what trends are you seeing overall in the customer experience and contact space? Have we got growth trends or we've got declining trends? What are you seeing? What's your sense of the market space?
Speaker 2:So we think that for sure, transactional high volume activities are disappearing rapidly, and that's not just the kind of recent generative chat GPT conversation, that's kind of bigger picture and that's happening in all of our markets US, uk and in Australia and that's exposing what I said earlier in the call that the things that are left are then therefore just necessarily more complicated and emotional because they can't be automated. So I think that's number one and that's driving organizations to want to focus their energies more on those interactions to drive outcomes, whatever those outcomes are. And what we believe, and certainly our customers believe is, is that, because interactions with customers are becoming less frequent, they really have to count. Yeah. So yes, you need labor arbitrage and cost saving, but it has to be fantastic at the same time. So I think that's kind of one trend that we're definitely seeing. We're seeing another trend, which is a hangover from covid, which is about risk and that's geographic risk. So many organizations and this is probably more true for the US than the UK, but companies have had an over-indexation in one country over another and that's provided a high degree of risk. So people want to sort of deconcentrate their portfolio across other markets. You mentioned it earlier that ESG or impact.
Speaker 2:Sourcing is definitely important. I think if you'd have spoken to me five years ago, I would speak. One in 10 interactions with a prospective customer would include a conversation about it. Now, all of them include a conversation and for some of them, it's the most important decision that they make when they're buying. I think that's an important trend, for sure, and I think that first time, outsourcing so companies that have never outsourced or offshored before going from an in-house badged employed workforce straight from that to offshore. So we're seeing that a lot. We're seeing that a heck of a lot and we're seeing that in the uk and we're seeing them in the uk with complicated customers in insurance, financial services, those sorts of markets, um, and that and again that plays into the conversation around. You know people can do complicated and emotional in Africa at a lot of cost and cost, cost is always important.
Speaker 1:As you touched on there, we're seeing a big increase in first-time outsourcers. How are they responding to Africa as a destination?
Speaker 2:I think really well, I think from somebody selling services if they've never outsourced or offshore before. It's an easier conversation than people that have got addicted to or used to traditional outsourcing and offshore markets. So that on the one hand, it's easier for us but on the other hand, they take more convincing because, you know, I think part of it is the reasons that the first time outsourcing is because the struggling to be able to continue to deliver services onshore. It's very difficult to hire people, it's very difficult to retain people, so that's driving people offshore. But people are not lowering the standards. So their expectation is is that they want at least the same level of service that their customers would have had when they were onshore, if not better, that their customers would have had when they were onshore, if not better.
Speaker 2:So I think that it's very interesting and we're seeing the same thing happening in the US. So we're seeing many, many, many first time and what they don't want to do is go into saturated markets. They don't want to. You know, there's a reason they didn't have offshore before, which is the options to offshore were unattractive. Didn't have offshore before, which is the options to offshore were unattractive right. So now they're looking at offshore because they believe that the.
Speaker 1:the options are more attractive yeah, and it's just still only hesitancy about um shifting operations to africa. Are you still picking any of that up?
Speaker 2:no. So 10 years ago it was extremely difficult. There were very few outsourcers and there were very few case studies. I think now, certainly from a UK perspective, it is the go-to offshore destination for contact centres. I think that next year, end of this year, it will be the go-to destination for US buyers as well. So so we're not having the the, the education process we used to have, which is you know, this is Africa, this is South Africa, this is the history and the language, and it's not a jungle kind of conversation. We're not having that. But for the first time outsourcers, they're typically very, very thoughtful. They'll take a long, long time and do lots and lots of work in assessing the markets. They'll see lots and lots of people. They go to lots of different countries. They'll speak to lots of our customers to understand what their experiences have been. So the first-time ones are very, very thoughtful, and rightly so.
Speaker 1:And thinking more broadly with economics. What impact do you see potential recessions having on the market space?
Speaker 2:so for 30 years in the industry, have taught me that it doesn't make any difference when you're on a, whether you're on an up cycle or a down cycle, when you're in outsourcing, because we've got a, a proposition for that right. So so you know when in boom times people are trying to build out capacity because they can, so they can handle the sales volume and so on, and in a downturn people are looking to reduce their costs. So we're seeing the recessionary environments, or certainly the threat of recession in developed economies, as driving more volume in our direction direction, I think, to our earlier conversation. First-time outsourcers to some extent are being driven to us because they just simply can't afford to do what they used to do, and also people that are very sophisticated buyers of outsourced services are also looking to diversify their portfolio, sometimes because of costs. So we think that the recessionary environment is probably going to grow the industry and certainly going to grow the industry in Africa.
Speaker 1:Thinking back to Africa, are there any particular sectors that you think you and Africa are a better place to handle?
Speaker 2:I think not necessarily sectors, but I do think the kind of work within an individual sector, the kind of the more complex, the stuff that requires a white glove service, where it's really important, really, really important, what the outcome is Premium retailers where average order values are in the many thousands of pounds. We're working with travel companies where you know, we work with a cruise line, as an example, where the average order volume is $35,000, average order value. So I think those things that are more premium and more premium could be. If you're a paid TV business and you're being attacked by Netflix, the most important thing you have is retention. So those kind of areas We've been very successful in retail in general insurance, financial services, a little bit of banking, in telco, in pay TV and we've been really successful in in travel uh, post post covid a huge we've gone from almost zero post covid to about 30 of our businesses is travel and that's airlines.
Speaker 2:And and again it plays into if you need to contact the airline, it's really bad, right, yeah, so, um, that requires somebody that's got that high e EQ to be able to manage and deal with that.
Speaker 1:And where does it go wrong? What are the key learnings that clients listening might want to pick up? Where does it go wrong?
Speaker 2:The key learnings are that Africa, south Africa in particular, is really hot right now, particular is really hot right now, and I think there are a number of market entrants into the market in South Africa who are probably going to misstep, because you have to be in tune with the local culture. So if you're a big American outsourcer and you've got 50,000 people in the Philippines, don't think that you can bring your management philosophy and your processes to South Africa or to Kenya and it will work because it won't work. So that's that's the key from a from from, from our perspective, that each, each country, each local, even each city, in fact, has got a slightly different culture, and I think, if you're looking to work with an outsourcer in Africa, understand that they understand that the market they're operating in. I think you should also look for authenticity.
Speaker 2:In ESG or impact sourcing, there's lots of organizations that are somewhat cynical and are checking the box, whereas you need to look for some more depth. But the key is you need to speak to customers, people that are using the services. I'm bound to say the things that I say. Don't ask me, ask my customers, either with permission or without, because then you'll get it. You know once and all, so that would be my recommendation and thinking more personally now.
Speaker 1:how did you get started being in the industry?
Speaker 2:now, how did you get started being in the industry? So I was a graduate trainee 30 years ago, working for a company called Gus Home Shopping, which you may or may not remember, keith, it was a big company that doesn't exist anymore and it was a big retail company that had gigantic retail peaks but a big call center that remained empty for half the year.
Speaker 2:So what they did in the gosh in the 90s they decided to set up this thing called outsourcing, and I was a young graduate trainee and I was just available. So I got involved in outsourcing at the very, very beginning and then I was hooked, so variously operational, mostly commercial roles, quite a few sales roles, and then I then was an outsourcer, thinking that clients made terrible decisions. So I decided to become a client for a while to understand why they made terrible decisions. So I went to work for Vodafone for seven years. I was the head of outsourcing at Vodafone for a while and then I realized that clients don't make terrible decisions, outsourcers do. So I learned it from from both sides. So I've very I've oscillated between client and vendor side, but I've been on the vendor side now and in Africa for 10 years.
Speaker 1:You would have worked with and for a lot of big people over the over your career. What or who have been the biggest influences on your life and career?
Speaker 2:So I worked for a guy called Dave Rumble, who I think you'll know who taught me almost everything that I know. I worked for him at Vodafone. I learned a heck of a lot, so I think Dave is probably the one that I would single out as being and having the biggest influence on my career overall.
Speaker 1:Amazing. So, as you know, we always like to ask our guests to reflect and help those coming up through the industry today. So you could go back to being 25 again. What advice would you give to yourself?
Speaker 2:When I was 25, I had no idea that I was going to have a really successful career working in contact centres, and if I could have told myself then that be less stressed about it, it's going to be OK. And this industry is going because, if you think about it 25 years ago and it's the same happening today call centres were all going to be over next week as everything was going to be automated and so on. So so if I had gone by, I said don't worry, it's going to continue to grow, you're going to be successful and you're going to have a huge career that's going to take you all over the world, meeting interesting people and being able to do interesting things and actually having a positive influence on people's lives, so that when you get old, like I am, you'll look back on your career and be quite proud of it Incredible, so that when you get old, like I am, you'll look back on your career and be quite proud of it.
Speaker 1:Incredible. That's fantastic to hear and great advice. So how do you unwind and escape from it all? Tell us a few things we wouldn't know about you from looking at your LinkedIn profile.
Speaker 2:So travel, even though I travel 27 weeks a year on business, the other 20 odd weeks I like to travel and get around. It's a big world. I'd like to see more of it. I've got two teenage children, so they're keep, they keep me pretty, pretty busy. Um, yeah, so that travel and the kids is is what I do outside of contact centers amazing, uh, martin, it's been fascinating having you with us today.
Speaker 1:Uh, thank you for sharing such great insights. I hope our listeners have found it as insightful as I have. You can find out lots more about the Customer Experience Foundation at cxfoorg and we hope you can join us next time on CX Diaries. Thanks,