Halloween Special: Understanding How Your Theme can Improve Your Story with Jeremy Dauber

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Episode with Jenna Satterthwaite

• How horror reflects societal fears and anxieties throughout different periods in history.
• What's next for societal fears reflected in our themes
• Insights into why certain genres remains a unique genre for exploring the darker side of human nature and social issues.

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Jeremy Dauber

Jeremy Dauber: [00:00:00] And I wanted to kind of narrow down and say, you know, you can learn a lot about a particular culture by what scares them. And I wanted to, and I thought that there was a good linear narrative to be told.

David Gwyn: Happy Halloween, everybody. I have a very special guest today. Who's going to talk about all things horror. If you like spooky stories, like I know you do, you're going to love this episode. I am such a sucker for horror movies. And so this was so much fun for me, but even if you're not as into horror as I am, I think we discussed something really interesting for authors of thriller and mystery suspense and crime fiction. 

So make sure you stick around till we get to that. I'm David Gwyn and writer navigating the world of traditional publishing during the second season of the thriller one-on-one podcast, we're going to continue our focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers that land. And you an agent and readers.

During the season of the podcast, I'll be sharing some of my own insights while also talking to agents authors and other publishing professionals about the best way to write a novel. If you want the experts secrets, thriller one-on-one is where you're going to find them.

Last week on the podcast, I talked [00:01:00] to author and literary agent Jenna Satterthwaite.

Jenna Satterthwaite: But it's art! Art is weird and messy and complicated and finding the thing that resonates. It's not a straightforward, simple, bullet point list that's gonna get you there. It's a messy process and I wish everyone the best as they try.

David Gwyn: That episode is linked to the description. And if you're a querying writer or someone trying to write emotionally relevant books, then you have to listen to that episode with Jenna. It was so insightful and she was a lot of fun to talk to. 

So make sure you check that out. Today's guest is Jeremy Dobber. 

He's a professor of Jewish literature and American studies at Columbia university. His books have been finalists for the national Jewish book award. And his new book, American scary, which is out now emerged from his work as a professor at Columbia university. Let's get to the interview. 

Jeremy, thanks so much for being here. 

Jeremy Dauber: It's a real pleasure. Thank you for having me on the podcast. 

David Gwyn: Yeah, so it's spooky season. So I'm really excited to chat with you about your book American Scary, which is out now.

How does it feel to have this book out in the world? 

Jeremy Dauber: Oh, you know, [00:02:00] it's, it's great. I mean, you know, it's a lifelong interest, but it's just the community of people who love this stuff are so warm and welcoming and they've been very positive. And so it's been a lot of fun. 

David Gwyn: Yeah, that's cool. I feel like the horror community is like a tight knit group of people and people who are like obsessed with horror.

My wife and I watch a lot of horror movies and so like I dabble in that world and like it's such a cool environment and cool group of people. So tell me, tell me a little bit about this book and tell us a little bit about you know, what it's about. 

Jeremy Dauber: Sure. So this book, American Scary is a sort of history of what scared Americans from the very beginnings to the present day.

And the things that I was really interested in was saying, You know, some of those fears are real. There are historical fears and some of them are fictions and, and the line between the two is not always as clear as we would like to think that it is. And so, you know, to tell the story is to say, well, let's go through history and kind of see how all of that comes together in ways of frightening us.

And, and that's what I tried to do in a [00:03:00] fun read. 

David Gwyn: You know, I, I, when I was getting my, my master's, I took a horror class on, it really made me appreciate. the genre of horror even more than I did already. And I was a horror fan, like I mentioned. So I know this book came out of a history of horror class you taught at Columbia University.

So can you talk a little bit about like that course and then why you felt like a book made sense? 

Jeremy Dauber: Well a friend and colleague of mine and I, like you say, teach this history of horror course, and that's a big class at Columbia. And it kind of runs from the medieval period to yesterday, you know a lot of fun, all sorts of things.

And I love that. And my area of expertise is certainly one of them is really America. And I wanted to kind of narrow down and say, you know, you can learn a lot about a particular culture by what scares them. And I wanted to, and I thought that there was a good linear narrative to be told. But what we did in the course is, you know, it's not just movies, although there's a lot of movies, but there's history and literature and all sorts of things.

And just to put all that together in this kind of shaped way. Yeah, [00:04:00] that was so fun. 

David Gwyn: Oh, that's cool. And so do you feel like the, the novel, does it, follow the trajectory of your course, or is it a little bit different? 

Jeremy Dauber: You know, it's chronological like the course. So, so that in that way, it's, it's the same.

And in both ways, you know what I'm trying to do in, in, in my part of the course is say, here is why this treatment of these monsters looks this way at this particular time. Vampires have been around for, for many, many years. But the Dracula of 1930 looks different from the Dracula of 1980. Which looks different from the vampires today.

You know, why is that? And that was a fun thing to kind of tell everybody about. 

David Gwyn: Yeah, that's very cool. I think that's one of the things I personally love about the horror genre. Is how it like reflects society in a lot of ways, like you mentioned, like it reflects societal concerns and societal anxieties and so and you know, you can watch horror.

I feel like you can watch horror movies, especially from, from different time periods. Like you mentioned, like the, the different time periods, if you know what's happening historically, you start [00:05:00] to be able to figure out like what was, what were scaring, what was scaring people at that time and how that's reflected in the horror, which I, which I think is really cool.

And so I feel like I probably know how you're going to answer this question, but I'm going to ask anyway, cause I want to, I want to hear your response to this. Why do you think horror is kind of like an ideal genre for expressing social anxieties? 

Jeremy Dauber: What a, what a great question. I mean, I think that, you know, a lot of times with horror, it's a way of talking about something without actually having to get bogged down in the actual historical details.

So, you know, our fears about, let's say class war, right? You know, if we get into them and you know, there's politics involved, there's this and that, but if you say, here's a bunch of rich people who kidnap people to an Island and kind of hunt them down you know, we're like, okay, we don't really think that's happening, right?

But we can, we don't think. We we, we can watch that in the middle of the Great Depression with a movie like The Most Dangerous Game, and we can say that's expressing our inchoate feeling that, you know, not [00:06:00] everybody is on the same side here and, and let us kind of work through the, the fears, the hostilities, the anger, the catharsis in this kind of powerful way without sort of getting bogged down as I say.

So I think that's really, that's a lot of it for me. 

David Gwyn: Yeah, that's really cool. I, I've long suspected that great. stories across any genre do this to some extent, like that they're situated historically and I think like a lot of people are, I think a lot of people focus on like the commercial aspect of of things, but I feel like in a lot of ways the books that really seem to have the staying power are the ones that do something culturally and socially, and I do think that's Why horror is so much fun to look at even years later I mean you can watch horror movies from years prior and they like they really stand up and I think it is because of The way that we think about the that time period Which I think is is unique to the genre in a lot of ways Like I feel like a lot of people don't like watch thrillers from from 50 years ago You can watch a horror movie from 50 years ago and be just as scared which I think is [00:07:00] very Yeah, cool about the genre.

I am going to ask you this question. I'm sure it's probably like choosing your, your favorite kid, but do you have a favorite horror, either story or horror, element that you feel like was really, like is really the one that stands out to you.

The one that you find most interesting. 

Jeremy Dauber: I mean, yeah, it's a great question. I mean, to me, I, I think that the thing that was the most interesting to me in some ways, the most surprising was this transition in the, sort of the 1940s to the 1950s where, you know, there are all these classic monsters that come out of the 1930s, but werewolves are a little late to the game.

They come a little bit later than this. And, and what happens, I think, is that. Americans are looking over at, at Germany and they're saying, you know, Hey, this was the most civilized country in the world. Right. That was everyone thought of certainly in Europe, right? Everyone thought about it there.

And all of a sudden they seem to have turned into this bunch of barbarian, crazy psychopaths, whatever. And, and, and the, the werewolf comes around to kind of, in some sense, encapsulate that, [00:08:00] that, that transformation aspect, I think. But then, you know, There's a switch after, okay, the Nazi Germany is defeated, thankfully, right?

The war is over, but then you have people beaming to think, well, wait a minute, who says that that kind of capacity is only limited to over there, right? You know, and, and in America, like it comes out in the form really of film noir where you have all of these people who are like, well, you know, I guess I will kill my wife for the insurance money kind of thing, you know?

And, and they seem like perfectly innocent people, but they're monsters underneath. So watching that historical trajectory and kind of telling that story was particularly interesting and fun for me. 

David Gwyn: Yeah, that's very cool. And it's funny you mentioned Dracula earlier, but that was kind of my first realization about the ways in which a monster, like a singular monster, could exist across different time periods as different things.

And, and I think I d that about the, the werew an interesting one to tra imagine you're probably s horror movies a lot? [00:09:00] Like who watches them and can do you just find 

Jeremy Dauber: yourself Well, to me, you know, I Stephen King fan. That wa got into heart and I was I was too scared to like watch it. Right. So for I was not one of these people like, I'm a little older than you.

Grew up like with Freddie and I was like, no, I can't watch that. But it turns out that the key to doing this is to write a book and watch about 700 of them.

But as you say, you're a hundred percent right. At this point, it's like I'm watching, I'm like, Oh, like how does this connect to that? And I've seen this trope. And so it's not quite the same, but I still, I try and put that aside to kind of enjoy the movies.

David Gwyn: Okay, let's pause there for a second. One of the things I think that is so compelling about fiction in general is the way it can reflect society. 

Later in this interview, we're going to talk about how it might also be influencing society, but we'll, we'll get there in a little bit. What I really want you thinking about as you're working through your story is like, what are the thematic implications of your work? I've had a few guests recently, you've talked about themes in their [00:10:00] work. 

And I think in many ways thriller writers, don't do enough thinking about our themes. So now I want to ask you what themes are present in your work. What's societal or cultural issues. Are you grappling with. If you say none. I mean, that might be okay. But it might be the thing that your book is missing.

So make sure you think about what big ideas . Your work is considering.

The querying world, and even just writing, is so hard, it can be devastating , but the thing that we all need, the thing that we lean on when it gets tough and when there are days or weeks or months where you're not hearing much, the thing that we all lean on is community.

And so I really wanted to focus on the community aspect of bringing people together who are all in on this journey together while also helping them grow as writers by bringing in experts and industry professionals. And then the other piece of it which I think is really important here is networking and building connections, 

 So [00:11:00] if you really want to make 2025 the year you sign with your agent, then check out the link in the description. It'll have more information about the Thriller 101 community. I'm really excited about this. I will say though, I have to limit the number of people who are in just because of how much I want to deliver and I want to build cohorts and I want to build a community and that really doesn't happen if it gets too big.

So I really want to keep this first cohort limited. Also, because it's the first cohort, I am really looking for people who are invested in helping me improve and develop this community into something that, that benefits writers.

So, if any of that interests you head into the description for this episode where you'll see a link to sign up for the waitlist for the thriller one-on-one community, and specifically for this first cohort, which will be starting in just a few days. 

Okay. Let's head back to the interview.

So I'm going to ask you to pull out your crystal ball here and see the future a little bit.

So what do you, what do you see [00:12:00] as kind of the horizon for horror? What are the social anxieties that either we're having now that will be reflected probably in horror movies? And like, two to three to five years. Like what, what are the things you think are coming up? 

Jeremy Dauber: Well, you know, I think that predictions are hard, especially about the future. 

But I do think that the way in which we are not able to trust anything that we hear or read or see, except for your recommendation about how good my book is. But other than that, I think that. really can lend itself to horror in a way of where we always, we always have had, you know, there's something that you, you see that is not real, right?

Even all the way back to Salem, the devil has the capacity to elude. But I think with AI and with fake news and with all that stuff, trusting the media is at an all time low, right? I think that's going to be a really fun thing. for horror that we just a that we [00:13:00] don't know. And c reality and A. I. I think source of fear going forw cool.

David Gwyn: I imagine at some point a few years down the road, I'll send you an email and be like, look at this movie that's coming out, right? But that's very cool.

So are you thinking about the ways in which horror is reflective of society as much as you are about, like, how society is reflected by horror? Or the things that we see in horror?

Entirely reflective of us or are some of those things things that we're putting out into the world as things to be afraid of 

Jeremy Dauber: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think you're absolutely right to suggest that it's a you know, Recursive it kind of feeds on itself. So just to take one example, you know In the 90s there really was this whole idea of stranger danger and of Satan and, you know, the satanic panic kind of thing in the 80s and the 90s and a lot of that really, I think it's fair to say, was either very overblown or in some cases entirely made up, right?

But it led to this idea that, you know, [00:14:00] really the world around you is much less safe than, than perhaps objectively from the statistics it is. Yeah. And that then comes back into, you know, television shows like CSI, where like, there's a murder every week, right? And it's terrible and all that. And you know, I have kids and like, you realize like, I mean, we live in New York city, but nonetheless, you know, they don't, they don't play the same way that they used to, or more afraid.

So I think that's a whole process of everything, fiction to real life, to fiction, to real life, back and forth again. And, and that's a fascinating process to me, even if it's scary. 

David Gwyn: Yeah, that's so cool. This, this has been so much fun. I just, I just have one more question for you, which is if people are interested in hearing more about you, where can they look you up?

Where can they find out more about you? 

Jeremy Dauber: The best place to do that is on my website, which is JeremyDauber, D A U B E R. com. I'm on Amazon. I still call it Twitter and, and Blue Sky. You can, you can find me there under my name again. And the book American Scary is available wherever you buy books.

David Gwyn: Yeah, very cool. So I'll, I'll link to all that stuff. So you have [00:15:00] quick access to Jeremy. Jeremy, this was so much fun. I can't recommend this book enough, especially around this time of year. I feel like it's., it's so much more fun to get into horror movies when you start having some of those thoughts about like, well, where is this from?

How are these things connected? And I think as people who are interested in writing and reading it's just a great resource. So thank you very much. And I really appreciate you taking the time to chat. 

Jeremy Dauber: Real pleasure. What a great discussion. Thank you so much, David.

David Gwyn: Okay. So that's it. I hope you enjoy this chat as much as I did. Jeremy's book really is great and informative and interesting. So I hope you go check it out and. Happy Halloween and I will see you next week