Thriller 101
A podcast for readers and writers of thriller, mystery, suspense, and crime fiction.
Thriller 101
152 Letter from an Editor: Demi Michelle Schwartz shares her critique of my manuscript
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What actually happens when you talk to an editor who has read your manuscript?
In this episode, I talk to editor and author Demi Michelle Schwartz to go through the notes she gave me on my manuscript.
Demi shares what worked and where it needed work.
Then I share the three lessons I took from her feedback so you can apply it to your own writing.
@demimschwartz on Instagram
demimschwartz.com
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today on the "Thriller 101 Podcast," we're talking to Demi Michelle Schwartz. Demi is an author from Pittsburgh represented by Spencer Hill Associates. primarily writes young adult fiction focusing on fantasy and thriller genres. She graduated summa cum laude with BAs in creative writing and music from Seton Hill University. Then she earned her MFA in writing popular fiction from Seton Hill as well. with being an author, Demi is the host of "Literary Blend," a publishing podcast. She's also a freelance fiction editor through her independently run services, Amethyst Ink Editorial, which we're gonna be talking about today. She's also an editor for Revise and Resubmit, and she's an award-winning songwriter and classical pianist. So with that very impressive resume, Demi, welcome to the "Thriller 101 Podcast."
Demi Michelle SchwartzThank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be here
David Gwynwhat we're gonna do is we're gonna talk a little bit just like general editor feedback kind of things, and then I'm gonna share kind of the three most important lessons I learned from your feedback. I learned a lot of important lessons, but I limited myself to three. But before we do that, I'd love to have you just share your background and how you got into editing
Demi Michelle SchwartzYeah for sure. So when I was in my MFA program, I feel very fortunate because my program was very focused on critiquing and learning how to do that, how to receive feedback, and how to give feedback verbally and written. During my semesters, I had critique partners and worked with a mentor. And then in our in-person residencies, we did workshops where we all sat in a circle and shared feedback verb- feedback verbally. And I found that extremely helpful because it gave me a very strong foundation into not only being able to articulate my thoughts in written form and spoken aloud, but also being very aware of how I'm delivering feedback and being sure I'm being positive, and sharing my feedback in a way that's uplifting and encouraging and not difficult to take in. And so I found that extremely helpful. Once I graduated, I started querying for the first time, and I had a lot of friends at the time who were querying as well, and so we did a lot of beta reading swaps. And several of my friends who I critiqued during that time, they went on to sign with agents, and a couple of them now have gotten traditional publishing deals. And several of them told me, "You should be a freelance editor," and that's something I never really considered. And then in March 2024, I started Amethystick Editorial, and it's been an absolute dream job. And so I'm really happy that my friends were the ones who told me, "You should do this," because I definitely didn't think of it myself.
David GwynI'm not surprised that they said that. I, obviously we'll talk a little bit more about the edits you gave me on my manuscript, but it was insanely helpful to have you look at my work. And so I'm, I, again, I'm not surprised that they said that. Since you had all of these different kind of experiences with editing, I'm curious what you think makes a writer great to collaborate with when it comes to editing?
Demi Michelle Schwartzbeing an author myself too I see it from both sides. And as an author myself, it's so important to get feedback on my work because I read my stories, and I think I know what's on the page. But what's on the page is not always what's actually supposed to be there 'cause our perspectives as authors is we have such a clear image in our heads. We have such a clear vision. But that doesn't always translate onto the page. And so through my own author journey, working with beta readers and hiring editors as well, I've really got a chance to work with some truly incredible people in the industry who have helped me take my story to the next level, and that's what an editor's job is. Our job is to help an author realize their vision and help them to elevate that. I think that's one of the key things that an editor should be doing. You never want to work with someone who tries to take your story and tell you how they would've written it and demolish your vision. You want an editor who's going to see what you have and help you develop that. And when you find someone who's going to do that with you, it's really helpful from the author perspective because you're getting an outside opinion on your story. And if you get multiple outside opinions on your story, you're gonna get a very clear understanding of how readers are absorbing your story and how they're understanding it, things that they're confused about, to help you zero in on what's working in your manuscript and what's not working in your manuscript. And it's just as important to know what's working than what isn't because all-- we all have strength as authors too, and it's never great to get feedback that's just all constructive criticism. And knowing what you're doing well and how to improve is always very helpful. So I think authors, no matter if you're hiring an editor or you're just working with a beta reader or a critique partner, is absolutely essential. And I think no matter if you're tradin- pursuing self-publishing, traditional, or with a small press, no matter what path you're taking, it's so important to work with other people to help you get your stories where it needs to be
David GwynYeah. It's so much there to unpack, so much important stuff. I think the biggest piece too, and something that obviously I think will become clear as we talk about this about this process over the course of this episode how important it is to work with someone on your writing, to have someone else read your writing, and somebody who knows what they're looking for, right? And, like you'd mentioned, you don't have to hire an editor if you ha- if you have really strong friends who will edit your books, right? If you have a writing group, that's awesome. Use them, lean on them. But it needs to be somebody. It needs to be somebody who's looking with a critical eye. And then the other thing that I think i- is so important is really the next place I was going because maybe you read my mind. It, that misconception that all feedback needs to be negative in order to be helpful, and it really doesn't, right? One of the most important things, and I think you did this so well in, in your feedback to me was help me uncover the things that were working as much as things that weren't. And, as writers, we need to know what we're doing well so that we can do that more. So my question to you on kind of the back of that preface is We've been talking like theoretically and when I had this idea, I pitched it as like a behind-the-scenes look at what a writer and editor, the kind of the conversation that we might have. And I'm very nervous about doing this. But I think it will be helpful to people who are listening to hear the conversation that happens around editing, 'cause I do think that at times writers shy away from edit- editing because they're worried about these conversations. They're worried about hearing something that maybe is not ideal. But I think that's in- that's inevitable, right? W- we're writing, and we're writing to put our words out there, and so that is inevitable. You gotta be able to get feedback. let's start with what were the areas that you thought my manuscript did well?
Demi Michelle SchwartzSo one of the main ones that still sticks with me now is your world-building and setting. The town, I literally felt like I was there. You painted a picture, you transported me to that place. It was so vivid, so immersive, and I literally felt like I was there. And I think that's so important when you have any kind of darker genre. like thriller, mystery, or horror, like any of those, the setting can act as a character on its own and be very atmospheric and add to the tone of the story, and I think you absolutely pulled that off. It was so Good I love the town. Tying into that, the folkloric angle was so cool. I'm obsessed with anything folklore. And as soon as I started reading it and knew that was part of it, I was like, "Oh my God, this is perfect for me." I love it because it was so woven through the s- the world-building as well to where it, it felt so integral to the story, and you had those articles sprinkled in as well that gave more about the backstory, the lore, and all of those aspects of the town and the foundation of the story that it's being built upon. And all those aspects woven together just felt so rich and immersive, and I loved it. Along with the articles, you had diary entries too, and I thought those were super cool. You could definitely add some more of those in there. But any kind of multimedia element like that you had in here was so unique and fresh and added another layer to the story. Instead of just the regular chapter narratives, you really added all these extra layers that made the story more complex and super engaging, and I found myself really looking forward to those parts of the book. I also loved your characters. There was one in particular, Ezra. He was my favorite.
David Gwyngood.
Demi Michelle Schwartzyour characters really jumped off the page, and they felt just so real, and that tied into the town too. Like, when you have a story like this where all the characters can be suspects and they all know each other, it felt like a very well-developed cast of characters I found so immersive and so fun.
David GwynNice
Demi Michelle Schwartzloved that. So those are-- I loved more things, but those are the main things coming to mind. I loved it overall. It was so good.
David GwynOkay, so that, that was not as painful as I thought it was gonna be. I squirmed a little bit. But now I wanna talk about some areas you think I, I can improve, some places where this manuscript could be better.
Demi Michelle SchwartzYeah So there's two main things that I remember that I want to touch on. I thought you had a great voice. Like Diana was very great as a protagonist. I loved being in her head. She was very fun. I literally was laughing out loud at times. Like she was such a fun protagonist to follow. So the voice-y element was there. But I did lack a little bit of a connection, and the main area that are coming to mind that I'm remembering are she's discovering clues, and she's starting to piece things together. But as she's doing that, I felt a disconnect between what she was actively discovering in a scene and what she already knew. So that's one of the things with like mysteries and thrillers is as a character starts to uncover things, they're going to remember prior things and see how things fit together, how they don't fit together. And I felt like with Diana that she was reacting to things in the moment, but not taking that extra step to see, okay, what's all the information I know so far? How can things fit together? What doesn't make sense? What does fit? So that was one of the things, and then the other aspect with the interiority tied more into the emotion aspect too is that she's investigating something that happened to her best friend that has been missing for about a decade or over a decade. And so that's going to be a very emotional experience for her as she's forced to go back into her past. She's forced to uncover things about people she knew and look deep into herself and maybe realize things about herself that aren't that great that she has to face, while all the while dealing with this grief and trauma of losing her best friend. And so when she was doing the investigating, I didn't fully connect to her personal struggles that she was facing as she was doing the investigating. So those were two of the areas tied to the interiority. And the second aspect that I think you could take a look at too is this idea of bringing out the thriller elements Diana was in a journalism role, so she was doing a lot of interviews and uncovering clues, and it felt very much like she was trying to solve the mystery. And with a thriller, though there are mystery elements, thrillers are more about the character's survival. There's some kind of danger element. There's a ticking clock aspect, and there's a lot of suspense. And though this book had that, I felt like the mystery was more present than Diana's own personal danger factor. She would be forced to make choices if she-- is she going to leave the town or is she gonna stay and take a risk with something bad happening to her or someone she loves? So there are different ways of doing it, And there's a really great craft book. it's called Writing Killer Fiction. And it's a book that my, one of my mentors had me read in my MFA program, and it's divided in half. the one half is on mystery and the other half is on thriller, and it breaks down the two and really clearly illustrates how they're different. And what I really like is the author describes a mystery as being in a fun house and a thriller as being on a rollercoaster. And I think those are really great analogies because a mystery, think of a fun house, right? Like you hit the dead ends. There's all this reflection around you, so nothing is really as it seems, and you're trying to puzzle your way out. Versus on a rollercoaster, once you get on, you're not relaxing until you're done. Like you don't know when the drops are gonna come. You don't know when, like you have that big steep climb and then that whole build-up of suspense and then everything hits the fan and you drop. So there's two different vibes, and so that's one of the things that I think authors, no matter if you're writing a mystery or thriller, being aware of, yes, they are similar, but what is the main genre and how can you elevate that main genre?
David GwynI was, as I was going through the edits that you sent and reflecting on my own writing practice as, as we should be doing as writers I realized I'm... So I'm such a plotter. I have to have something plotted, otherwise I go haywire. I'll be out in left field. And so I think what I think what I realized about myself is because I'm getting my characters from A to B, I am I'm not experiencing the story with them, which means I already know where they're going, what's gonna happen next, what's gonna happen next, what's gonna happen all the way at the end. And so I forget to think about them and what they're going through and what they're experi- and how they're experiencing the plot because I'm, in my head, I already have the roadmap. And I think that is so important. That's such a great piece of feedback that once I realized that, I got about like halfway through edits w- when it kinda clicked for me, And I was like, "Oh, I need to go back and th- realize basically that this character, even though I know what's about to happen, this character's experiencing it for
Demi Michelle SchwartzYeah
David GwynAnd so I think that it was such a, a valuable piece of feedback, for this manuscript. And I think similarly with the thriller versus m- mystery I think it's the same thing, right? Things are happening and they are inherently dangerous, but I'm not building that up because I'm just getting to the next plot point and the next plot point and the next plot point, and I'm skipping over, like you mentioned, like I'm skipping over the things that make a thriller. Even though there are elements that are there that could be developed, that could be expanded on, I wasn't doing that in this manuscript. And so yeah, super valuable feedback
Demi Michelle SchwartzYeah, so the one thing I just wanted to add too is with, like I'm also a plotter. you don't even wanna know how long my prep talks are before I start drafting. But that's something that I have to focus on too, 'cause I also write thrillers. I do fantasy, but my main genre is thriller. And so I think like with you, like your plot, it was solid. And so that's one of the things that I fo- have to focus on as well is I'm so focused on the story and making sure the story works, and then when I do my revisions, that's when I'm really focusing on the interiority more, and I'm bringing out the suspenseful elements. And so I think it's one of those things where it's hard, and this goes for any aspect or any author. It's hard to focus on everything when you're drafting. It's impossible. It's so hard to nail everything on the first pass through. But if you have something you're focused on, like for you, it's the plot. It's like, "Okay, I'm gonna focus on the plot. I'm gonna get the scenes down. I'm gonna make sure the story flows. I'm gonna make sure I hit the beats." But then you're aware when you go back through, "I need to focus on the interiority. I need to bring out the thriller elements more." And so it's perfectly fine to not hit everything during the first draft, because you can always go back and revise. And if you know what you have to go back and revise, then you're able to do that, and just focus on what you need to comfortably be able to draft it.
David GwynYeah. that makes total sense. I wanna go over the three most important lessons that I learned. We'll go through these pretty quickly. I'm just gonna ask you kinda one question for each, one-ish quest- question for each. I might ask two, we'll see. But I, I, we've talked a lot about interiority and how important it is and how vital it is for a manuscript, interiority and voice. I know this is a hard question, but I'd love to hear kind of your thought process with this. Like, how would you define interiority? If there's a writer sitting there saying, "Do I have interiority or not?" Like, how would they check that?
Demi Michelle SchwartzOkay, so every editor, agent, reader, like they're gonna define it differently, but this is how I like to define it. Interiority is your character's inner thoughts, emotions, and physical reactions on the inside. So anything that you can see outside of them is not interiority. So for example, if a character is rolling their eyes or like shaking their hands or something, that's external. Internal is like their heart beating faster and like they're like sweating and like their stomach is getting all crunchy and maybe they're like, they're meeting someone for the first time that they have feelings for and they get their butterflies, so it's all the internal physical reactions, not the external in that aspect. And then the thoughts, it's their direct thoughts. So I see a lot, and I call it filtering, which is basically the term for it. Filtering is when you're telling the reader what a character is thinking or feeling instead of just showing it. So if you say, "She felt scared," you're telling me she felt scared instead of showing me through her emotions and her reactions. If you say, "She thought blah, blah, blah," then you're telling me that's what she's thinking instead of framing it as your own thought. So we all have inner monologue. We all-- I have the biggest inner monologue ever. And when you're thinking to yourself and you're having those thoughts, like that's what should be on the page. You should literally feel like you're reading your character's thoughts. And so stripping away any filtering and trying to remove external descriptions of the character, because one of the things that gets me a lot is like physical descriptions that a character can't see. So for example, if a character is blushing, the character's not gonna think my face turned red because they can't see their own face unless they're looking in a mirror. What they can describe though is their face blazing hot 'cause they feel themself blushing, but they can't see it red because they're not looking at their own face. So that's a good distinction. If you're looking through your manuscript, highlight inner thoughts, highlight-- if you're a visual person, you can highlight the inner thoughts, emotional reactions and things. And then for the inner thoughts, ask yourself, "Are these direct specific thoughts or am I filtering?" If you have an emotion, are you telling the reader the emotion? Is it internal or are you describing something external that the character can't see because they're not looking at themselves? So it's the internal thoughts, emotions and reactions
David GwynYeah. No, I love that definition. And I think it helps people think about how they're navigating that in their own work. My next-- my, my lesson number two of most important things I, I learned from working with you is overused words. Now I knew this was a thing. Everyone knows this is a thing, right? This is not an u- unusual thing. Certainly I've, I've worked with writers in the past, and this, this-- everyone has their own overused words that they use too much. And I know I feel like of the things that happens to writers a lot is we don't always edit linearly. We have an idea for something, so we go back and add it, and we add a sentence, but that sentence could contain words or phrases that happen to be a page or two earlier, a page or two later that you just don't think about until you go through. And it's so important to have an editor and have someone read it because, it becomes glaringly obvious to readers in a way that not always when you're writing the manuscript. And why is it so important for writers to find and then destroy these overused words?
Demi Michelle SchwartzFor me, it really pulls me out of the story. And it's funny because when I'm doing my own, I could read a chapter 1,000 times and have 10 word echoes in there and not see them until somebody reads it or I send it to someone and they notice it. That's one of the things that we send our manuscripts out, and then we're like, "Oh, no, there's a typo on the first page," wherever that's 1,000 times happened, I missed it. It's the same kind of thing because you're so immersed into like what you think is on the page instead of what's actually on the page. And for me, it really takes me out of the story because I am s- what I'm reading, and you can probably tell this too from the level of editing, I'm literally holding onto every single word. So I'm aware of every single word. So if you use the word door in two sentences side by side, it- I'm gonna know.
David GwynYep
Demi Michelle SchwartzAnd when it happens so frequently, it becomes like distracting because like I point them all out, and I know not all editors do that, but I will. Every time I see an echo, I have to point it out. And if there's so many echoes, I feel like every couple of pages or every couple of paragraphs, I'm like, "Echo. Echo. Echo." And it like stops the flow for me because like I see so many. But not all authors can catch them on their own. I can catch them on their own. So like for me, like I don't mind pointing them out because it helps the author find them. But it's so important, like you said, if you're going to add a sentence or something, read what's around it because you could possibly add an echo, and I do this all the time, where like I would find an echo in my story, and then I would change it and then realize "Oh, crap," like I used the word I changed it to in the next sentence. Now I need to fix it again. So it creates like an effect like that. But that, that comes down to the clean approach. with like manuscripts being ready for submission with the polished line-level writing. Not having many echoes in there is part of that too because that's something that readers will really pick up on
David GwynYeah. I think it takes somebody looking at your manuscript to really find them and really find all of them. All right, cool. Number three of most important lessons I learned from working with you and that's grounding the reader with setting and place. Based on your feedback, based on our conversation, it sounds like I did an good job on this which was good in developing setting, and I feel like my method is always visualization without distraction is the way I would describe how I, think about setting. But do you have any kind of easy-to-apply techniques that the writers could use to make sure that they're grounding readers in the setting?
Demi Michelle SchwartzYeah, for sure. So one of the main things is at the beginning of a scene or chapter, anytime you're changing to a different location or a different setting, even if you're staying in the same setting and changing chapters, the reader needs grounding at the beginning because you don't know where they're putting the book down. So say you have an amazing cliffhanger at the end of chapter three, and chapter four picks up in the same scene the reader could put the book down after reading chapter three and then pick the book up the next day and start reading chapter four and be like, "Wait, where am I? What's going on?" Because there's no grounding details. And so that's one of the things to keep in mind, that you have no idea where an agent could have paused reading or a reader could have paused reading. So at the beginning of every scene and chapter, I suggest to have some grounding details. Don't go overboard because you don't want it to be a long stream of description that don't, doesn't really matter much, but just enough to where the, the reader can imagine where we are and what's going on. Another thing I want to point out is something I see very often, is a lot of times writers will do that. They will establish a sense of place. But then as the scene goes on, we lose a sense of place. And the areas where I see this most are dialogue-heavy scenes when there's a lot of conversation. When there's a lot of conversation, typically there's a lot of dialogue like character descriptions, like their facial expressions, body language, interiority, and actions but not much setting. And so at the beginning of the scene or chapter, I had a strong sense of place, but then if we have long blocks of dialogue with no grounding details, I describe that as the conversation's floating in space. I don't know where we are. I'm not grounded in the scene anymore. And so I would just be aware of you don't, obviously don't want a sensory detail in every paragraph of dialogue. But be mindful of every few exchanges or so to make sure there's something subtle. It doesn't need to be a really long description. A subtle detail that ties into action. So for example, if a character and they're in conversation with someone and they're having a heated discussion, and they avert their eyes. When they avert their eyes, maybe they flick their gaze to the clock and they're looking at the time 'cause they wanna get out of there. Little subtle things like that naturally work in. You don't wanna stop the flow to describe things, but this ties into the interiority and the voice, too. Because if a character is interacting in a scene, they're going to notice subtle things through their senses naturally. And so that's what you want to do instead of pausing dialogue to describe a room for three sentences or something like that.
David Gwynthat makes total sense. And a great piece of advice and this was so much fun and scary and nerve-wracking and all of the emotions. But I really enjoyed it, and I hope people who are listening, if they made it this far, found it helpful as well to hear not only my own reflections on how this went but also most importantly, how they can apply some of these things to, to their own work. My last question for you is just where can people find you? Where can people look you up?
Demi Michelle SchwartzYeah. So I'm very active on Twitter if you're still hanging out there. My handle is @demimschwartz. My display name is Demi Michelle with the butterfly emoji. Same display name and handle on Instagram. I'm also on Blue Sky with the same handle and username too or display name. But I'm not super active on Blue Sky. I'm mostly just there for RevPic 'cause that's where we have our events. But I'm most active on Twitter and Instagram. My website is demimschwartz.com. And I also wanted to mention for anyone listening, a very special offer for you. If you're interested in editorial services, I wanted to give a special offer to anyone who listened to this episode. So if you're interested, I'm going to give 10% off of a query letter critique or the first five to 50 pages. So if that's something you would like, just email me. You can also go to amethystinkeditorial.com. That's on my website, but it'll take you there. That URL will take you there. And my email is there too, but it's just amethystinkeditorialgmail.com, and just let me know that you found me through the podcast episode. And Yeah. I would be happy to take a look at your work. But I'm so happy we were able to do this, David. This was so fun.
David GwynGood. Yeah, no, and I, and if you're listening and you got this far and you're wondering if you should work with Demi, you 100% should. I highly recommend you working with her. You can use this as a testimonial on your website. I can't thank you enough for the work that you did with my manuscript. It-- I'm a better writer for having worked with you and my manuscript has improved based on your feedback. So I can't thank you enough. So much fun. I look forward to chatting with you
Demi Michelle SchwartzYeah, absolutely. Thank you
