This week, we're deconstructing the common diet culture concepts of authority, discipline, and accountability. In particular, we're looking at: what systems are being upheld by these concepts; how these concepts can interfere with our self-trust and autonomy; how we address these concepts within our work with clients; and how interrogating the language we use can help us better identify & meet our needs.
You can stay up to date on all things Satisfaction Factor by following us on IG @satisfactionfactorpod!
Here's where to find us:
Sadie Simpson: www.sadiesimpson.com or IG @thesadiesimpson
Naomi Katz: www.happyshapes.co or IG @happyshapesnaomi
For this episode's transcript, visit: www.satisfactionfactorpod.com
Want to connect with us to deepen the conversation? Join us in our online community, The Satisfaction Space!
Want to show the world that you love the pod? Get t-shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, stickers, totebags & more at Teepublic!
You can stay up to date on all things Satisfaction Factor by following us on IG @satisfactionfactorpod!
Here's where to find us:
Sadie Simpson: www.sadiesimpson.com or IG @sadiemsimpson
Naomi Katz: www.happyshapes.co or IG @happyshapesnaomi
This week, we're deconstructing the common diet culture concepts of authority, discipline, and accountability. In particular, we're looking at: what systems are being upheld by these concepts; how these concepts can interfere with our self-trust and autonomy; how we address these concepts within our work with clients; and how interrogating the language we use can help us better identify & meet our needs.
You can stay up to date on all things Satisfaction Factor by following us on IG @satisfactionfactorpod!
Here's where to find us:
Sadie Simpson: www.sadiesimpson.com or IG @thesadiesimpson
Naomi Katz: www.happyshapes.co or IG @happyshapesnaomi
For this episode's transcript, visit: www.satisfactionfactorpod.com
Want to connect with us to deepen the conversation? Join us in our online community, The Satisfaction Space!
Want to show the world that you love the pod? Get t-shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, stickers, totebags & more at Teepublic!
You can stay up to date on all things Satisfaction Factor by following us on IG @satisfactionfactorpod!
Here's where to find us:
Sadie Simpson: www.sadiesimpson.com or IG @sadiemsimpson
Naomi Katz: www.happyshapes.co or IG @happyshapesnaomi
Welcome to Satisfaction Factor, the podcast where we explore how ditching diet culture makes our whole lives more satisfying. Welcome back to Satisfaction Factor. I'm Naomi Katz, an Intuitive Eating, body image, and self trust coach, providing anti diet support to free thinking grownups who want to reclaim their autonomy and consent from diet culture.
Sadie Simpson:I'm Sadie Simpson, an anti diet group fitness instructor and Intuitive Eating counselor, and I help other fitness professionals disengage from diet culture, so they can improve program enrollment, engagement, impact, and retention without shame and manipulation.
Naomi Katz:Hey, Sadie.
Sadie Simpson:Hey, Naomi.
Naomi Katz:If you listened to episode number 25, which is the episode we did with Kelly Cutchin, you might have heard us touch a little bit on the sort of problems with things like discipline and accountability. And we wanted to expand on that a little bit, as well as adding in the idea of authority. Because these are all really common words and concepts that we honestly just don't think about very critically. And it's kind of important to, because they can have some serious implications for our self trust, and like the way we engage with the world.
Sadie Simpson:Yeah, and I loved in the Kelly Cutchin episode- because during the conversation with Kelly, and then again after listening back to it after it was published, it really made me recognize that we need to dive a little bit deeper in these topics, because I think they are so important to bring up when we're talking about things like building self trust, like getting our needs met, and that sort of thing, because we often associate things like authority, and discipline, and accountability through a diet culture lens. So I'm just excited to kind of expand on this a little bit more of what that could mean, outside of diet culture, and how we can kind of shift our views on these things a little bit.
Naomi Katz:Yeah, definitely. And, you know, just to sort of preface this, much like we said in that episode, this really isn't about policing language. So if these words feel supportive or helpful to you, as an individual, that's fine. Like nobody's saying we should cut these words out of our, you know, day to day language. And language is important. So it's always worth interrogating the words that we choose. Sometimes we might realize that we can like more accurately name what we need or what we want with different language, which is something that we'll definitely talk about as we go through some of these examples today. And sometimes making language shifts can have a pretty significant impact on how we feel, and how we act, and how we feel about how we act, and you know, things like that.
Sadie Simpson:Yeah, and we talked about this- I believe it was on the Intuitive Eating series episode where we talked about joyful movement and gentle nutrition- but exercise is a great example of one of those words that I think a lot of people can relate to. Because, in that episode, you and I both shared that we tend to use the words exercise, or workout, or movement pretty interchangeably, but as somebody who is beginning to do the work of disconnecting the idea of exercise as a way to essentially punish ourselves, or as using exercise as something that is a chore, or something that we don't really want to do, kind of disconnecting exercise from the diet culture narrative, it is often helpful to rephrase that, and to call it just movement, or intentional movement, or something like that. But I think that's a really good example of what we're kind of talking about here, of choosing words and recognizing how our language may impact how we feel not only about ourselves, and about our bodies, and about our self trust, and that type of thing, but really how we show up in the world too.
Naomi Katz:Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. That's a really great example of that. Okay, so let's start to dig in to some of these words. And I think a good place to start is- because I think in a way these words kind of build on each other a little bit too- like if you think about it, authority, discipline, accountability- these are very intertwined concepts. And so I think authority is a good place to start because I think the other two concepts kind of rest on this idea of authority. Does that sound right to you?
Sadie Simpson:Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I like that way to frame it. You know I like a good structure. So this sounds great to me.
Naomi Katz:I do know that. Here we go, let's- let's dig into the framework here.
Sadie Simpson:Let's do it.
Naomi Katz:So a lot of us look to professionals, or people who we see as being, like, quote unquote, success stories in their own experiences, as authorities on specific topics. Obviously, I think, you know, weight loss, diet, nutrition is like a big one of this. But I also think this is true in a lot of other ways- like financial advice, I feel like is one, business advice is definitely one. Yeah, I think there's like a lot of contexts where this would apply. Part of that is because a lot of people, like Instagram influencers and people like that, use their personal experience as a way to establish themselves as an authority. The reality is that like typical online business marketing courses like expressly teach people to establish themselves as authorities in that way.
Sadie Simpson:Yep.
Naomi Katz:I distinctly remember being in a business marketing course with somebody who- it doesn't matter who it is, but Sadie and I have both done some business education with this person in the past- and I remember like the concept of imposter syndrome came up. And this person like expressly said, if you've done it yourself, you're an expert. And at the time, I remember that felt really reassuring. And in retrospect, that feels so gross to me. All that means is that I'm an expert on my own experience, definitely not on how to recreate that experience for other people.
Sadie Simpson:Yeah, well, I think, especially with online business, there is this thing that you have to monetize any experience you've ever had in your life and turn it into a coaching program, or a course, or some sort of framework to sell and to help other people. And that's really, really, really harmful. Like, an example that I'm thinking of right now, is that yes, I am a parent, but I do not like at all consider myself to be a parenting expert. And it would be a disservice to the world if I put out a parenting course, because I know nothing about what other parents experience in their own parenting lives. But this is exactly what happens. And even going back to what you said a minute ago, weight loss is another example of where this shows up everywhere. We see this show up a lot with folks who have gone through a, quote unquote, weight loss journey, and then are trying to market and sell weight loss programming on social media. And even though they don't have the credentials- you know, if- with any kind of nutrition coaching or anything like that, even if somebody hasn't had any sort of background or professional education, whether it is with health, or with weight loss, or nutrition- because having personal experience doesn't necessarily mean that it is in alignment with a professional scope of practice. So I think that's another thing to to consider when we're looking at authority and talking about authority is this harm that is often caused by this idea of false authority. So there's a lot of different angles, we can kind of approach this from.
Naomi Katz:Yeah, absolutely. And like, you know, super loud shout out to capitalism-
Sadie Simpson:Yeah.
Naomi Katz:-through all that. This like- through- especially the idea that we constantly have to be monetizing our personal experiences. Oof. Yeah.
Sadie Simpson:Like, I bought a shirt, so I'm gonna put together a course on how you can too go buy a shirt. And, you know, it's just- it's what happens.
Naomi Katz:Absolutely. Which, you know, isn't to say that we don't all have something to offer, by way of like- you know, we all do have knowledge on things, and some of that knowledge can be helpful to other people who maybe don't have that knowledge, and like, there's ways to go about this. You know, there's a difference between sharing personal experience as a way to give context to some concepts, and- you know, and things like that- or like as a way to make it clear that we as professionals are also humans doing this work ourselves, versus sharing personal experience as a way to establish that we know best and that like we're the expert on this thing. I share about personal experiences all the time with folks that I work with, and on Instagram, or social media, or whatever- like I totally share personal experience. But I'm very careful to make it clear like what my positionality is in that.
Sadie Simpson:Oh, yeah, I think that's a really important piece to point out right there that is often left out of some of these more bigger mainstream personal experience things that we see, especially on social media.
Naomi Katz:Yeah. So I think that, as professionals sharing our personal experiences, it can be complicated. Because we're all kind of conditioned to see professionals as authorities, and as a result, sometimes when a professional shares a personal experience, it can seem like they're sharing a, quote unquote, right way to do whatever it is they're doing. But it's so important to keep in mind that like my experience, or like whoever's experience, is just that- it's like my experience. It's not anybody else's experience. You know, like, my life is not- is not anybody else's life. My privileges are- might be different. My identities might be different. My trauma like experience might be different. Like, the reality is that what works for me very well might not work for somebody who has different privileges, and experiences, and lives, and identities, and stuff like that. And so, you know, being like, I did it, so you can do it by doing it the exact same way as I did- it is like- it's just bullshit. All it does is create this space of like guilt and shame, when like these things don't apply, they don't carry over.
Sadie Simpson:Yeah, I think that's really important to remember, especially within the work that we do working directly through the Intuitive Eating framework. That's a great example to point out here. Because I mean, I'll share my experience of kind of how I got into Intuitive Eating, and, you know, just some of the different things that have happened in my life throughout this time, since I've discovered and implemented this framework personally, and now use it professionally. But I think really pointing out the fact that even though this is based on an outline, based on a framework, based on these 10 principles of Intuitive Eating, there is a lot of nuance to be included, a lot of personal experience, like you said, a lot of trauma, a lot of privilege that I have experienced in my Intuitive Eating journey- which I feel kind of cheesy saying- but in that- in that experience in my life, that may not be reflective, that won't be reflective, in other people's experience with this same thing. So I think that's really, really, really important to recognize.
Naomi Katz:Yeah, absolutely. And like, even if there's a framework that you're working off of, like, you know, just knowing that, like people don't fit into boxes. And so an individual's experience might not fit in perfectly to a framework. And that's why like, even professionals who are trained on a framework and like have tools to do things like guide people and stuff like that, that still doesn't make those people an authority. Like it just makes them like there to like help and guide, not to like enforce certain rules, or ways of being, or anything like that.
Sadie Simpson:Mm hmm.
Naomi Katz:This is actually a good way to segue into this part, which is that this shows up a whole lot in our dealings with medical professionals. I think most of us are taught that doctors are authority figures. You know, we're taught that they're the experts, that they know best, and that it's our job as patients to be compliant. And I think, worse than that, doctors are definitely taught the same thing- that they're the experts, and that patients are supposed to be compliant. And I use that word because I know, like from experiences people have shared and stuff like that, that like compliant is specifically a word that doctors use in their notes about like whether or not somebody is- not to quote South Park- but respecting their authority in the situation. You know, like, where if somebody says, no, I'm not gonna do that, that's not for me, that's considered to be non compliant, in terms of like, you know, how doctors see that behavior. And that's really, really, really harmful. The thing is- and this goes for all professionals, but let's just stick with doctors for now- doctors are humans, doctors are fallible, doctors are, you know, subject to all the same, you know, dominant culture social conditioning stuff that the rest of us are. So, you know, diet culture, and white supremacy, and healthism, and etc. And the reality is that doctors actually work for us, not the other way around. And that is a huge paradigm shift in terms of the way we relate to authority, and especially the way we relate to professionals as authority figures. But like if you've hired somebody, they work for you, not the other way around.
Sadie Simpson:Yeah, and I think that we often forget about that when it comes to doctors. We definitely recognize that more, I believe, if we're hiring somebody for a service, or even like for a haircut, or somebody who comes to do construction on our house, you know, or whatever. Like, we don't look at doctors in the same aspect as we look at other service providers, but they're service providers.
Naomi Katz:Yep, that is exactly right. So I mean, bottom line about authority is that like you're the only authority on you. What works for you is going to depend on a million variables within like your own personal experience as a human. Like, I can't think of anything where there's like one single right way to do something that like will work for everybody. I think there's just- there's ways that honor and respect your humanity and ways that don't. And like, that's it- that's about it. So ultimately, you know, anybody who positions themselves as knowing about you better than you do, is- that should be a red flag of like, what's- what's happening here? Like, what is the the authority dynamic that's coming up here?
Sadie Simpson:And I think another thing to consider about authority is when we do have some kind of authority- so maybe if you're listening to this, you are a doctor, or a dietitian, or a personal trainer, or, again, even a hairstylist- anybody who has some kind of knowledge or some kind of authority that other people are looking to you as the know-all person, as the expert in whatever subject- we've got to recognize the responsibility that comes with this type of authority. And I think a lot of times what happens- or I know this has happened to me, speaking of telling personal stories, but this has happened to me- is that I've been in situations where I didn't really consider myself to be the authority figure, but others saw me as the authority figure, as the leader, and I didn't recognize that. So especially in a group exercise class, for example. I'm there to teach my class. And of course, you know, I have knowledge and experience in other areas, but often I get asked questions that are really in depth health related. That is way outside of my scope of practice. But since I am the, quote unquote, fitness expert in the room at the time, sometimes I get asked a lot of medical based questions. And I think it's important to recognize, as the leader in that situation, to know when to kind of step back, when to recognize scope of practice, and when to refer out to other people. So I'm thinking of like physical therapists and other people, for example, but I think that's just another consideration.
Naomi Katz:Yeah, I feel like those are two concepts and like both of them are so important. So like one being, regardless of whether or not we see ourselves as an authority, other people might see us as an authority, if we're in a position that is generally considered to be a position of authority, and that we have some responsibility. Again, personal experience- I definitely- like we have the ability to like address that head on, and like really try and be proactive in shifting that sense of authority back to the person about themselves. So when I first start working with people in coaching, like one of the first things we talk about on our first call is that I'm not an authority. They're in charge of everything that happens. Nothing happens without their consent. They always get to say no, if they don't want to do something. I really make a point of shifting that authority off- like back to them as much as possible. And really trying to make it clear that like, we're a team, but like, they're the captain of the team, basically.
Sadie Simpson:Oh my gosh, I love that so much. I tend to do that pretty regularly in my group fitness classes or in personal training sessions. But it's always interesting. Whenever I do make comments of, you know, I'm just here to give you suggestions, to give you ideas of what to do, you can always say no, you can always move differently than the way I am moving, or if something doesn't feel right in your body, let's try something else- and a lot of times, that's really surprising for people to hear, because in a movement or exercise setting, specifically, people are so used to being dictated and directed that they have to move in one way, that they don't have the autonomy to listen to what their bodies are telling them that they need to do, and they've never been given the opportunity to be the authority of their own body and their own movement. And it's a big shift for a lot of people to learn how to autonomously move in a way that is self directed and not, you know, driven by a Jillian Michaels style personal trainer.
Naomi Katz:I love when I am taking a class, whether it's online, or in person, or whatever, and like the instructor says something along the lines of I'm just here to offer you suggestions, like I'm not the boss of you, or something like that. I just- like it all- like just that permission- like it just immediately like shifts- again, it like shifts the authority dynamic, which I think is so important. And I just- like, imagine- this has never happened to me- but I can like just imagine if I ever went and saw a doctor, and that doctor said to me something along the lines of like, I'm not the boss of you, we can explore this as a team, like, let's talk about some options together, or something like that. Like, holy shit. Like that would be it. That'd be my doctor for life.
Sadie Simpson:Seriously. Do we have any doctors out there listening? And how can we make this a thing? How can we do it?
Naomi Katz:Seriously.
Sadie Simpson:So yet another personal example- before I had a baby- so while I was pregnant, I had done a lot of research on the whole exercise postpartum thing. And most of the current research recommends that everybody, after they have a baby, go get checked out by a physical therapist. And at my six week OBGYN appointment, I asked my doctor for a referral to a physical therapist. And she was like, well, I really only refer people who were having like really serious issues to a PT. And I was like, well, I kind of want to go get an opinion on what is going on, and some direction on what I need to be doing as far as my personal movement, my personal exercise routine, that type of thing. And I didn't get a referral to physical therapy. And based on my own research, I was able to self refer myself and kind of get that knowledge, and get that feedback, and get that support from a physical therapist. But had I had not been involved in fitness and done a deep dive in this whole world of postpartum recovery, I would not have known anything about that. So again, like the doctor in that situation did not know what was best for me. Fortunately, I had the ability to advocate for myself in that situation and seek out the support that I needed. But again, the authority figure in that situation kind of dismissed what I was asking for.
Naomi Katz:Mm hmm. Yeah. And if you had been- like, if you had the understanding of authority, that so many of us are cultured into having- if like you hadn't already started to dismantle that for yourself, you would have just been like, okay, the authority- the authority figure says no, so I guess that's a no, and you would've just-
Sadie Simpson:Yeah.
Naomi Katz:Yeah.
Sadie Simpson:Like, good to go.
Naomi Katz:Yeah.
Sadie Simpson:Yeah.
Naomi Katz:So, you know, the long and the short of this is authority is a really complicated concept that very, very rarely is helpful for us- that like, by and large, authority is a way- like the concept of authority is a way of like giving up our autonomy over our choices. And, yeah. It's just not- it's not generally something that's- like, when has anybody in a position of authority really been looking out for anybody's best interests other than their own? Just saying. So, that sort of brings us to the concept of discipline, which, I mean, is very, very, very much linked to the idea of authority. Etymologically, the word discipline means to teach or guide. So like, think of like disciple as a student. Right? But when we use it in conversation, it usually means punishment, restriction, and control. Right? And, you know, we can absolutely thank diet culture and white supremacy for making everything about conforming, and complying- there's that word again- following rules, lack of self trust, like all of that stuff, right? I think there's a- like, one of the ways that we can really look at this is, when you're- like, the reason this sort of links to authority is like, I feel like discipline is very much complying with authority. People who are- who consider themselves to be authority, and who are acting out of authority, very rarely teach or guide, and usually control and punish. And so you can see how these things are like really closely linked. Instead of somebody in a position of authority teaching and guiding, what we see is that people in positions of authority use discipline as a way of conforming or forcing somebody to conform to dominant culture, and denying or forcing somebody else to deny their own individuality.
Sadie Simpson:That is such a good point. And I think this whole concept of discipline shows up everywhere, obviously. In a work situation, our bosses and our supervisors expect us to be compliant, they expect us to be disciplined. Whenever we are, again, in a exercise or a movement setting, there's this assumption that the instructor, or the trainer, or the coach is expecting everyone to like fall in line and to perform the movement with perfection. And then there is also discipline and compliance in parenting too. And when you think about really, really, really old school ways of parenting, especially like way back in the day, talking about, you know, you better listen, or you're gonna have to go outside and cut off a switch off the tree, you know, like physical discipline that way. And just the way things have evolved. I think a lot of this just goes back to our expectation on a societal level of perfection. And it disregards humanity. It doesn't allow for mistakes, or imperfections, and we are all human, we are all imperfect, we are all gonna make mistakes. And this idea of discipline just disregards that completely.
Naomi Katz:Yeah, totally. And it's also so important when we talk about like, oh, we're seeking perfection, that we're really seeking like a one size fits all perfection that is defined by our dominant cultures, which means it's a perfection- it's like a white perfection, and it's a thin perfection, and it is an able bodied perfection, and like all of all of those things. Right?
Sadie Simpson:Mm-hmm.
Naomi Katz:And sort of to like, you know, suss that out, like, we can just look at how discipline is like disproportionately used against children of color in schools, and adults of color in policing, against fat people in health and fitness settings- and like, all of these things, obviously, basically just in the world- where like, you can really see that what we're like- we're using discipline as a way to punish what we see as like things that don't conform to that white, able bodied, thin, dominant culture version of perfection.
Sadie Simpson:Mmm.
Naomi Katz:Again, going back to that whole, like discipline- that it means teaching or guiding- like that's not teaching or guiding. Like that's punishment. It's just punishment
Sadie Simpson:Mm-mm. for not conforming. That's all it is. I think that when we are told that we just need discipline, like by a doctor, or a fitness professional, or like anything, or when we tell ourselves that we need discipline- which I think is like a really common thing like when we're still dieting or whatever and when we're still pursuing weight loss- it's like, oh, I just need to be more disciplined- it's so important to really think about, like, what are we really saying? What we're really saying is that we need to conform and comply. And like, can we just- can we just say that anytime that word- comply, compliance, compliant- anytime that word comes up, we should be like, oh, something's not cool here. There's a problem here. Red flag alert.
Naomi Katz:Like that's- that does- that word needs to just not be a thing that we ever feel like we're trying to do. That brings us to the idea of accountability, which, I feel like accountability is kind of like the less strict younger sibling of discipline.
Sadie Simpson:I like that.
Naomi Katz:You know, it's totally the thing that like we use to try and like enforce all that compliance and stuff like that. So I know, personally, a lot of the folks that I work with start off by telling me that they're seeking accountability in their Intuitive Eating practice. And I totally understand why that's the phrase they go to. I think that like, even what- even if we've gotten to the point where we're like- we've kind of shifted away from the idea that we need discipline, sometimes we still feel like we need accountability to like keep us on track. Like, it just feels like a gentler phrase. And I think we don't always realize how linked it is to discipline. Because it feels more gentle and whatever, it's especially important to interrogate, because it feels more comfortable, but it also is like- I think anytime that the concept of keeping us on track comes up, again, that's something- because when we say keep- when we say keeping us on track, what we're saying is keeping us compliant.
Sadie Simpson:Mm-hmm.
Naomi Katz:Like, again, there's that like red flag word. And so like, it's so important to start asking ourselves like, okay, whose track am I on? Who created this track? Who decided this was the track? Like, why am I on this track, really? I think what it really comes down to is that accountability is still really about living up to and like meeting external factors, rather than prioritizing our internal needs, our preferences, our desires, our values, and like all of that stuff.
Sadie Simpson:I can't stop thinking about how this is also really relevant when talking about finances, too. Because one of the things that just keeps coming to mind are these like external systems. So I don't know if you're really familiar with Dave Ramsey, but-
Naomi Katz:I'm totally not.
Sadie Simpson:We won't dive really deep down that today, maybe we'll do a whole financial episode one day. But there is a system that Dave Ramsey whose financial guru dude has developed. And it's basically these baby steps or these rules of how to achieve what he believes to be his financial freedom. And there is some pretty like strict rules within this framework that you are supposed to follow, you're supposed to like, check off the box of this one financial benchmark before you move on to the next one. And there is no other way around it like you cannot skip steps or you can't kind of make up your own step. And this framework is really problematic in that it doesn't take personal situations into account. And I think that is a really good analogy for this because this whole idea of the baby steps are the framework is supposedly to hold us accountable with our money. But it's not an individualized thing. It's a very, like dictated thing is a really similar financial framework that could be like kind of related to a diet or to an exercise program that's trying to hold you accountable to achieve this thing because it doesn't allow for nuance. It doesn't allow for imperfection. I think this is just one example of how this idea of accountability shows up in other areas, too.
Naomi Katz:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like that sound without knowing literally anything other than what you just said about Dave Ramsey. It sounds like that is a framework that's like really an accountability framework. Yes, that is like, incredibly rooted in both this one person as an authority and the concept of discipline and compliance and stuff like that. So is that like a perfect example of this, for sure.
Sadie Simpson:Oh my gosh, yeah, we definitely need to have a finance episode where you can learn all about Dave Ramsey and those problematic things and how that's kind of tied into all of this diet culture stuff that we talked about, too. So we'll save that for another
Naomi Katz:day, for sure. an overlap between how we talk about finance and how we talk about food and bodies and stuff. Like, yeah, we will for sure do. You know, like I said, people often when they start working with me talk about accountability as one of the things that that they're looking for. So, you know, much like, again, you know, personal experience, everybody's going to do this differently. I'm by no means being like, this is what all coaches should do. But you're the authority, I am the authority on how this you know, but I do think it's helpful to sort of share how I do address that because like, Okay, again, if accountability feels like a word that like, resonates with you, like, let's talk about that, one of the things that I tell people, when we first start working together is that, like a big difference between diet and diet culture, and the work that we are going to do on Intuitive Eating is, is that diets expect you to fit your life around them. And Intuitive Eating should be something that fits into your life. Like you shouldn't have to shape your life around intuitive eating, like that's a diet culture expectation, that like you will shape your life around. Like, if it matters to you, then you'll make it work kind of thing. And like, that's not a very intuitive eating thing. Like we want intuitive eating to fit into your life and your preferences and like your identities, and all of those things. And what that means is that, like, I there's no way that I could ever tell someone what progress they should be making and what timetable they should be making. Because I'm not living their life, right? Mm hmm. You know, if someone can't focus on intuitive eating at all for like, a week or a month, or whatever, because it just isn't simply isn't fitting into their life at that time. For whatever, literally any reason, like how could it possibly be helpful to have me like wagging my finger? are looking disappointed about it? Is that gonna change the what's going on in their lives? That's like making it hard for them to focus? Absolutely not. Literally, all that's gonna do is like bring up those feelings of like guilt and shame and sense of failure that like, is the whole reason why they're trying to ditch diet, culture and practice intuitive eating in the first
Sadie Simpson:place. This reminds me of something that I've seen and heard before, I want to ask you if you've heard this, because I think it's really relevant here in this conversation. So have you ever heard anybody say something along the lines of they wish they had somebody like a personal trainer, you know, have someone follow them around, and just slap the food out of their hand whenever they are reaching for a cookie or to like, tell them to not eat something, and they need somebody to need an authority figure to hold them accountable? Like have you ever heard or seen that?
Naomi Katz:Oh, most? Definitely. And like, like, What the fuck? Serious? Seriously? Like, I think that
Sadie Simpson:kind of encapsulates all of this, like, the idea of discipline and accountability and authority that we one needs somebody to, like, tell us not to eat, but that we like, actively want to seek that out? Like, what does that say? About how we view these things?
Naomi Katz:Absolutely. Like that is Yeah. Or like, oh my god, you know, those, like, they make those like cookie jars that like yell at you when you open them and stuff like that. And like, I don't know, there's like, so many so many versions of this. And yeah, I've totally heard that. And I know there's products that are like essentially the embodiment of that. And it's so gross like it's just so again, like we're just actively giving up our autonomy all Yeah, and it's not even our full it's because we don't know like nobody has ever told us that we have autonomy over those things that like that. There isn't some other person that's an authority on that over us. But yeah, that's exactly it. Like I never want to be the person who's like doing that. That's like, to me the opposite of that about about somebody, not somebody prioritizing the other parts of their life over their intuitive eating work like, no, absolutely not. Instead, I find that what's really helpful is, you know, to sort of work with people to start to look at what they're actually seeking from what they consider to be like, accountability, check it, you know, it's never accountability, it's never guilt, it's never finger wagging. Or like any of that it's not, it's never looking to somebody else as the authority over what they should be doing with their lives, you know, it's really not any of that, like, what it usually ends up being is like, support space to share their experiences. So just like somebody to talk to, to just be like, This is what happened during my week, and just get it out of their head kind of guidance, which, you know, again, going back to like, teaching and guiding, right? Like, because having somebody who does have an understanding of the framework and the work and like, who has seen enough of this to be able to recognize patterns and be like, you know, maybe this next thing would be a helpful next thing for you. So like, how do you feel about that, like, offering guidance and suggestions, just like a group exercise instructor, like I'm offering this to you, as a suggestion, take it or leave it kind of thing, but like, based on education and experience and stuff like that community is sometimes what's actually being mistaken for accountability, just like having other people to talk to who are going through the same thing. It's not so much that you need like an accountability buddy. It's that you just want somebody to share the experience with and then sometimes it's routine, which like, I think we have a really, I think it's so easy to mistake routine, with accountability or discipline or things like that. But like, again, it's the role of authority in these things. And these concepts of discipline and accountability that make them very different from routine. Again, I'm going to just share personal experience. I have been struggling for so long. Now, to get back into a regular movement routine. I think I've even talked about that on the podcast before. Like, it's just I've been struggling. And I know that mentally it is I feel so much better when I have a regular movement routine. And physically, I feel so much better. You know, I had my experience with shingles recently that like really was like a wake wake up call to me about like, wow, you need to be doing some stress management. Things are not good. And I know that I've been struggling with establishing this for myself. So I reached out to our good friend, Betsy Archer of all bodies movement and wellness. And I'm going to start seeing her once a week for a training session. This is not accountability, I am not looking for her to like make sure I'm on track or anything like that. What I'm looking for is something in my schedule to help me maintain a routine. That is, that's all that's all I want.
Sadie Simpson:Yes. Oh my god, right. I love that so much. Because you know, I'm all about a structure and about a routine. And I joke about this a lot. But I do thrive in a more structured or routine lifestyle. However, I think it's really important to also note that that structure and routine always accounts for flexibility, when needed. It accounts for shifting things around when life requires things to change a little bit. And I think that's really important to to recognize that this idea of accountability in the terms of thinking about it more as support or as community or as guidance, and that type of thing. Like as we're kind of shifting our perspectives on things like accountability and structure and routine to really consider that all of this stuff is fluid, like things change all the time too. And life changes all the time. And I think that's something that we tend to leave out of this conversation, because we're just so we feel like accountability is aligned with like a rigid structure and it has to be this like perfect This perfectly executed schedule, which we all know is not a thing.
Naomi Katz:Yeah, and like, you know, as a person who tends not to do very well with structure, which is funny, I don't do all the structure, I do very well with routine. But I sometimes need a little help getting that routine going. Because my lack of structure makes it to where, like, Okay, I'm going to look, I have it in my head that I'm going to do some yoga this afternoon, or do this little, like movement or whatever. And instead, because I don't have a structure for like, my afternoon, or whatever, I sit down, and I start to make an Instagram reel, or like write an email or something like that. And the next thing I know, it's like, however many hours later, and I'm like, I don't have the energy to go do like, whatever movement it is anymore. And so like that, like, this is the thing I know about me, this is very reflective of my personal experience and preferences and like, whatever. And so it's so helpful to like really hone in on what we're looking for. And to really like notice what's different between seeking any of these other things, you know, routine support, guidance community, any of that stuff versus seeking accountability is that like, those other things account for your humanity, and you're on all of these internal factors. And they don't come with that sense of like guilt or shame or failure attached to them. It's like they have to be flexible.
Sadie Simpson:Hmm, yes. The idea of intuitive eating and kind of working through this framework. I hate to say it like this, but that is kind of like the hook. And I think it's fair to say that what you and I both do, is Yeah, I mean, of course, we work through the intuitive eating framework, but a lot of it is kind of untangling these ideas of accountability, of discipline of compliance, like all of the stuff that we talked about in this episode, is very deeply wrapped up in the work that we do.
Naomi Katz:Hmm, yeah. 100%. That's true. Yeah. Like you and I have talked about this so many times before that, like, talking about food is like such a small fraction of what we do as intuitive eating coaches. And yeah, this is definitely a big part of it is like unraveling the language of this stuff and these concepts and what concepts these concepts are upholding, things like that, for sure.
Sadie Simpson:So if you are listening to this, and this idea of seeking out support and guidance and community and routine, and doing some of this work of unraveling, things like the idea of discipline, and accountability, if this feels like something that is interesting to you, or something that you may need in your life again, Naomi and I both take on one on one Intuitive Eating coaching clients. And this is something we haven't really talked about a lot on the podcast, but we see clients virtually one on one. And if that's something you would like to explore more in depth, we will leave the links to our coaching applications in the show notes. So you can check that out.
Naomi Katz:Yeah, that's a great idea. Thanks, CD. Yeah. Okay, so before we wrap up CD, what's satisfying for you right now,
Sadie Simpson:I guess about six months ago, early on in the life of this podcast, we had talked about the time change, we are now approaching the time change again, by the time this is released. I may have a different perspective on this. But I am pumped for the time to change this weekend because I'm ready for it to not get dark so early. I'm excited for some later afternoon evening time to be able to spend outside so I'm ready. I'm ready for spring am excited and ready to emerge from the winter darkness.
Naomi Katz:Yeah, I'm with you on that. I have very mixed feelings about the spring. I love that it's lighter, longer. Like I love that. It's like oh Spring is coming and like you start to come out of that like winter hibernation. I hate losing the hour of sleep. And like technically getting up earlier like that's that that is
Sadie Simpson:the early thing doesn't bother me. Our that Gonna be brutal for a couple of days what's satisfying for you right now,
Naomi Katz:I recently finished watching the series Peacemaker on HBO. I mean, the shows the shows good, the show's fine. Like I enjoyed it. It had it was funny, it was good. It had people in it I like like, I would recommend it. But the thing about Peacemaker that I can't stop thinking about is the like the opening sequence for each episode. It's this dance routine that I don't I feel like you should google it and look it up. But I don't know if it would have the same effect when, like without the show itself, but it is the most satisfying thing to watch I've ever seen possibly in my life. Like I Okay, I have to Google this now. I can't explain what it is about this dance sequence. But like I just want to sit and watch it on repeat like I do. I'm one of those people who like my I feel like my the best modern invention has been like the ability to like skip intro on. Oh, yes, not this one. I'm so glad I didn't skip it the first time. And the only reason I didn't skip it was because I had seen something. Before I watched the show. I'd seen like a headline that like said something about how cool the intro dance sequence was. So I was like, oh, like let's see how it is. And like from that first time, it's literally I feel like I was looking forward to the dance sequence more than I was the episode. So yeah, my my what satisfying me right now is the peacemaker intro dance routine.
Sadie Simpson:I will be looking this up the second we get off this call.
Naomi Katz:It's so weird that that's my thing right now. But it just is that I feel like there's no way I'm alone in that.
Sadie Simpson:Yeah, come let us know if you have some thoughts and feelings about the peacemaker intro. Come on over to our Instagram page and about the time or at or about the time change. But yeah, we're on Instagram as satisfaction factor pod. So come talk to us. Let us know your thoughts about this episode and about life in general.
Naomi Katz:Yeah. And one simple thing you can do to support us is if you're listening in Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can leave us a rating and a review that helps us to reach more people and plus we just love reading them when they when they come in and so yeah, that would be awesome.
Sadie Simpson:Yeah. Alright, that's it for us this week. We'll see you next time.