#58 - Why We're Just Saying No to Heroin Chic

ICYMI, last month the New York Post published an article claiming that the worst fashion trend of the 1990s & 2000s was making a comeback - heroin chic. If you lived through this the first time, you probably recall how damaging & shaming this trend was, and you might have felt more than a little traumatized by seeing this headline pop up. So this week, we're breaking down all the reasons why we're never going back to heroin chic. We're talking about our own experiences of this trend the first time around; how beauty trends are used as distractions, and who benefits from those distractions; why these trends are political and disproportionately harm folks who are already politically and socially marginalized; and how we, as consumers, can learn to think critically about body types being sold to us as trends.

Want to learn more about Intuitive Eating? Be sure to check out Sadie's 6-week Intro to Intuitive Eating course starting in January 2023!

Want to connect with us to deepen the conversation? Join us in our online community, The Satisfaction Space!

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You can stay up to date on all things Satisfaction Factor by following us on Instagram @satisfactionfactorpod!

Here's where to find us:
Sadie Simpson: www.sadiesimpson.com or IG @sadiemsimpson
Naomi Katz: www.happyshapes.co or IG @happyshapesnaomi

Referenced in this episode:
The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf
Anti-Diet by Christy Harrison
Instagram post by Chrissy King
The Body Liberation Project by Chrissy King

Want to connect with us to deepen the conversation? Join us in our online community, The Satisfaction Space!

Want to show the world that you love the pod? Get t-shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, stickers, totebags & more at Teepublic!

You can stay up to date on all things Satisfaction Factor by following us on IG @satisfactionfactorpod!

Here's where to find us:
Sadie Simpson: www.sadiesimpson.com or IG @sadiemsimpson
Naomi Katz: www.happyshapes.co or IG @happyshapesnaomi

Transcript

Naomi Katz: 0:03

Welcome to Satisfaction Factor, the podcast where we explore how ditching diet culture makes our whole lives more satisfying. Welcome back to Satisfaction Factor. I'm Naomi Katz, an intuitive eating, body image, and self trust coach.

Sadie Simpson: 0:26

I'm Sadie Simpson, a group fitness instructor, personal trainer, and intuitive eating counselor. Before diving into today's episode, a quick reminder that The Satisfaction Space, our new podcast community, is open to join. We know it can be hard to find an anti diet community that is aligned with your values, especially if you're the first in your family or friend group to make moves towards ditching diet culture, and that is exactly why we created The Satisfaction Space. If you've ever found yourself listening to the podcast and wanting to add something to the conversation, or ask a question, this space was created for you.

Naomi Katz: 1:06

Yeah, The Satisfaction Space is our online membership community, and it includes a bunch of stuff. It includes a private virtual community of folks who share similar values and interests that you can talk to and connect with. Most importantly, you can talk to and connect with them outside of Facebook. It is hosted on a private platform called The Mighty Networks that has nothing to do with Facebook.

Sadie Simpson: 1:33

Thank goodness.

Naomi Katz: 1:34

Yeah. You will also get bonus podcast episodes during the podcast off weeks. And you will get monthly live virtual hangouts with the two of us. Sometimes these are q&a sessions, sometimes these are mini group coaching sessions, and so much more. And so you get to hang out with us once a month. And then lastly, you get a community feed where you can post your comments or questions and get feedback from us, as well as from your fellow community members. Membership to The Satisfaction Space is just$10 a month, and you can enroll at thesatisfactionspace.m n.co. And we will of course also have that link in our show notes

Sadie Simpson: 2:16

Or if you want to support the show but don't want to commit to a monthly membership, we also have some merch now. We have a handful of designs up on Teepublic that can be printed as stickers, T shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, tote bags, and whatever else you like. And the T shirts and sweatshirts come in up to size 5X. These could make a great holiday gift for a special Satisfaction Factor pod lover in your life. Or if your family and friends keep asking, hey, what do you want this year, you can just send them a little link over to our Teepublic site, which is teepublic.com/user/satisfactionfactorpod. And we'll also link that in the show notes.

Naomi Katz: 3:00

Okay, so last episode was pretty spicy. Right?

Sadie Simpson: 3:04

It was. Yeah.

Naomi Katz: 3:05

We talked a lot about Beachbody and it was hilarious. I feel like this episode has the potential to also be a little bit spicy.

Sadie Simpson: 3:13

I think so too.

Naomi Katz: 3:15

So on November second of this year, the New York Post published an article entitled "Bye Bye Booty: Heroin chic is back."

Sadie Simpson: 3:28

Ugh.

Naomi Katz: 3:29

Yeah.

Sadie Simpson: 3:31

Just that headline is like, oh god.

Naomi Katz: 3:35

Yeah. And worse, like the tail of the URL- so like the- what the link- the text of the link shows up as, is"heroin chic is back and curvy bodies big butts are out."

Sadie Simpson: 3:49

Oh my god.

Naomi Katz: 3:51

Right?

Sadie Simpson: 3:51

Wow.

Naomi Katz: 3:54

So before we dig into why this is so terrible, just out of curiosity, do you have a memory of heroin chic the first time it was a thing, in like the 90s and 2000s?

Sadie Simpson: 4:10

For sure. Like I can still vividly visualize advertisements and magazine- like things in magazines specifically, and like TV commercials and stuff. And even as like a young preteen- like 11, 12, 13 years old- can remember looking at these images and thinking, oh, these are like, quote unquote, body goals- like, this is what someone who is physically attractive is supposed to look like. Like whenever I think of heroin chic, especially in the 90s, maybe even early 2000s, I think of Calvin Klein- like CK One perfume and the Calvin Klein underwear is like the first thing that just visually pops in my head.

Naomi Katz: 4:55

Yeah, well, so Kate Moss was the model who was like the face for heroin chic, and I think she was the model for Calvin Klein. And interestingly, what I didn't realize, but I found out from this article in The New York Post, her daughter, Lila Moss, I think is her name, is one of the models being touted as like the return of heroin chic.

Sadie Simpson: 5:23

Oh, interesting. I- full disclosure before we're getting into this episode- I haven't even read the article. I have seen people post about it on social media and, you know, some little blips and things, but I haven't even read it, which is probably fine.

Naomi Katz: 5:40

That is okay, because we're gonna talk about like the points that are worth talking about in this article. But yeah, I also have like a pretty vivid memory of the heroin chic fashion trend in that time period. I know, for me, at least, I felt like it had like a direct impact on how I felt about my body during that time. Like, I'm a curvy person, I have curves. And I hated them, and did absolutely everything I could to minimize them. My breasts especially, I feel like- like, I just was like- I lived in horror of like, actually having boobs, which like, that seems like the opposite of what ou think people are gonna feel like in high school?

Sadie Simpson: 6:30

Yeah.

Naomi Katz: 6:31

I have a vivid memory of a boy in high school telling me once that he liked the curve of my hip. And like, he meant it as a compliment. And I remember being just mortified that somebody thought I had curves. And like, this was a friend of mine. He wasn't like, you know, being creepy or anything like that. But I just I remember being like, no, not a curve.

Sadie Simpson: 6:57

Oh, my gosh.

Naomi Katz: 7:01

Yeah.

Sadie Simpson: 7:01

The worst thing that could happen is having a curve.

Naomi Katz: 7:04

Right? Yeah. So I mean, yeah, the- heroin chic, the first time around, I think was really impactful for a lot of people and for their relationships with their bodies. And so it's hard to see the- to see headlines like this.

Sadie Simpson: 7:23

Yeah. Well, it's interesting. When this first came out, and I started seeing people talk a little bit about it on social media, I guess, like at the time in the late 90s, or mid 90s, whenever heroine chic- that this look was was all the rage or whatever- was it called heroin chic then, or are we calling it heroin chic now?

Naomi Katz: 7:44

No, it was called that then.

Sadie Simpson: 7:45

Okay. I don't recall that. But I guess I was probably younger, I was probably just in like middle school when this was like the big look. I don't remember it being labeled as heroin chic. But the first time I saw this, I saw people talking about it on social media, seeing this phrasing, I knew exactly what it meant.

Naomi Katz: 8:03

Yeah.

Sadie Simpson: 8:03

Without even like connecting the dots.

Naomi Katz: 8:06

Yeah, that's funny. I sometimes forget that there is like an age difference between us. But then something like this comes up, and it's like, oh, our experiences of this are different.

Sadie Simpson: 8:16

Yeah, because you're about- what- four or five or six years- I was- I'm 37. How old are you?

Naomi Katz: 8:22

42. So we're five years apart?

Sadie Simpson: 8:24

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay.

Naomi Katz: 8:26

Yeah. So that's like- that's a significant difference in how we experienced this stuff, and like where we were at developmentally and stuff. So that's interesting to see here, also. But, I mean, that also speaks volumes about how broad of an impact that had because I was in high school and experiencing this, and you were in middle school and experiencing this, and like, there's no chance that it wasn't also impacting kids younger and older-

Sadie Simpson: 8:53

Oh yeah.

Naomi Katz: 8:53

-than both of us. So. Okay, so this article- I will say the article is short, and it actually mostly talks about how shitty and dangerous it is that this trend is coming back.

Sadie Simpson: 9:06

Oh, nice.

Naomi Katz: 9:07

Right. The headline is not the content of the article. Like, there's a quote from a fashion writer named Tyler McCall, who- like the quote is, “Please, I am so tired of this. I know we’re all pretending this isn’t about bringing back thin worship or whatever but I can’t keep doing this.” And I'm like, okay. That's actually how we all feel about this, I think. And, you know, the article also talks about like the rise in eating disorders, and the rise in problematic Tiktok content, and stuff like that. So like it does- I don't- it doesn't feel like it's glorifying this trend. But- and this is a really big but- the thing is that we wouldn't even be having a conversation about this if places like New York Post didn't publish these articles with clickbait headlines and URLs and stuff.

Sadie Simpson: 10:07

Oh my god.

Naomi Katz: 10:07

Like the fact that they put this headline out there saying that it's a trend puts a spotlight on the trend that wouldn't be there otherwise.

Sadie Simpson: 10:17

Yeah, seriously. So many people, including myself, would have never known this was like a trending thing if it wasn't a headline, and then subsequently, people are talking about it now. So. Interesting.

Naomi Katz: 10:29

Absolutely. Well, and you know, I think so many people- like, they see the headline, and then they see the social media conversation about it, and like, they don't read the article. Like, truly, I probably wouldn't have read the article if we weren't doing this episode. And when I did read it, I was like surprised by the fact that it was kind of like, wow, this trend is shitty. I was not expecting that. I was expecting it to be like, hey, guess what, heroin chic is back. Because that's what the headline made it sound like, and that's driving the conversation around it. So like, I'm not letting the New York Post off the hook for like, oh, the article isn't that bad. Like, no, the article is bad. This shouldn't be an article, and you knew exactly what you were doing with your headline. I mean, it's the New York Post. This is what the New York Post does.

Sadie Simpson: 11:17

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Naomi Katz: 11:19

You know, and then it also includes like little tidbits of information that could like kind of almost be seen as disordered advice for how to follow the trend if you wanted to. So like, there's a little snippet about a Pilates studio in New York, the owner, who's talking about how, you know, she's seen a lot of- an uptick in her registrations since COVID restrictions were lifted, which totally makes sense, but linking that to women seeking out the long lean look. There's like not a sigh big enough for how I feel about that relationship to Pilates.

Sadie Simpson: 12:05

Oh my god.

Naomi Katz: 12:08

It's bullshit. Like, let's just throw that out there. As a former Pilates instructor, please let me explain to you that Pilates does not make you long and lean. Like these things are genetics. Like length is genetics. It's bone length, and like muscle attachment points, and all kinds of things Pilates is not going to change- nothing is going to- short of plastic surgery- is going to change that stuff. And lean is also largely genetics, right? Like we know that. But like, even if what they're talking about is fat loss, that is like not really one of the main outcomes of Pilates. Pilates is amazing for so many things. It's great for flexibility, and mobility, and coordination, and core strength, and balance, and mind body connection, and like so much stuff. But fat loss is like not a Pilates thing.

Sadie Simpson: 13:07

Yeah. Ooh. It is so interesting when- whenever I hear Pilates, and think of like mainstream Pilates marketing, it is always the long lean-

Naomi Katz: 13:19

Yeah.

Sadie Simpson: 13:20

-muscles and things like that.

Naomi Katz: 13:22

The other thing is that, you know, Pilates is primarily- like, okay, it's mobility, and flexibility, and stability, and all of that stuff- and it's strength training, essentially- sometimes with resistance, sometimes body weight- but like- which means that what you're doing through Pilates is building muscle. And because your muscle attachment points, and bone length, and things like that are purely determined by your genetics, it's like nonsense to be like, yeah, but if you do Pilates, you won't get bulky from putting on muscle. It's like, you're gonna put on muscle however you put on muscle genetically.

Sadie Simpson: 14:01

Exactly. Oh, my goodness.

Naomi Katz: 14:04

But, you know, linking Pilates to this trend of heroin chic is also just like so problematic, and also kind of pushing this narrative of like, you can just exercise your way into this look. And, I mean, we know that that relationship to movement and exercise is problematic in like a million ways, not the least of which being it's- that's not how bodies work.

Sadie Simpson: 14:32

Right.

Naomi Katz: 14:34

And then the other thing that it mentions is that some people are turning to diabetes drugs like Ozempic and Wegovy to like pursue quick weight loss, and that those diabetes drugs are like dwindling in stock a result.

Sadie Simpson: 15:02

Holy shit.

Naomi Katz: 15:03

Right?

Sadie Simpson: 15:04

That is so problematic on so many levels.

Naomi Katz: 15:07

Oh my god

Sadie Simpson: 15:08

Starting with like the people who need this medication, who have diabetes, and can't access it. Holy crap.

Naomi Katz: 15:16

So like, okay, we're gonna get into why heroin chic as a trend is problematic. But the trend of people using diabetes management tools for weight loss is like maybe one of the most despicable things I have ever seen. Like, maybe second only to the companies marketing those tools for that purpose. Because they totally are. Like, people aren't just like, oh, try this. There's marketing behind that. But yeah, like we- especially in the US- we live in a country where people with diabetes who literally need these things to manage the disease, and like, for life saving purposes, essentially, can't afford to access them, and sometimes die because they can't afford- afford to access them. But no, it's fine to be just selling them and using them for aesthetic weight loss. That's cool. That's totally fine.

Sadie Simpson: 16:10

Oh, my God, that is so wrong. Well, I was recently talking to somebody who has diabetes and uses the Dexcom- so like a monitor that they wear on their body to track and alert when they have blood sugar spikes, and drops, and things like that. And she was telling me that she was in a Facebook group of other folks who use this tool, and there was a whole big thread about people using it- people who don't have diabetes using it for- as a weight loss gadget- because it tracks- like it sends notifications and things to your phone, and they're using it as a tracker for weight loss when they do not need it for medical purposes. And that is such crap. And it's- it just reminds me of this is where we are, this is what we do, like everything is automatically turned into a tool, or a program, or a diet, or whatever for weight loss. And that is who we are as a society. And it's so bad.

Naomi Katz: 17:08

Absolutely. I have also seen a lot of that and like, yeah- I think part of it is- we've talked about this a million times before- about how like diet culture is shape shifting to be like, it's about health, it's about wellness. And I think that that's part of why we're seeing people be like, well, I'm monitoring my blood sugar, and adapting my diet based on that, and that's health. Like- like, yeah, sure, it's- it's weight loss, but it's because of my blood sugar, and so it's health, it's not just aesthetic. And it's like, no. I just- but I think that that's a big factor in how these things come to be used for weight loss. That's the article. You know, it's mostly not glorifying this trend, but it is also offering some problematic tips on how to follow this trend. So I would not recommend seeking out this article and reading it. It's really not worth it. There's like nothing- there's nothing new or particularly interesting about the article itself.

Sadie Simpson: 18:28

I'll take your word for it, and I will not read it.

Naomi Katz: 18:32

Except, I actually think maybe the most interesting thing about this article is the timing of when it came out. So this article came out on November 2nd. November 8th, marked a midterm election where bodily autonomy and reproductive justice were pretty prominently on the ballot.

Sadie Simpson: 18:58

Oooh.

Naomi Katz: 19:00

Yeah. And like this would very much not be the first time that restrictive beauty standards were used as a tool to distract people- especially the people who are maybe most likely to fight back against these like bad politics and stuff.

Sadie Simpson: 19:16

Ooh, that's some good journalism you got there- digging deep and looking at dates and things like that. I'm very impressed.

Naomi Katz: 19:26

Oh, why thank you. The- the ex journalism major in me really appreciates that. So okay, we've talked about Naomi Wolf and her book, The Beauty Myth, before in our episode that we did- I want to say it was like episode five or something, but I think that's not true- but it was- it was called "What's the deal with beauty standards?" And we- so we talked a little about Naomi Wolf and The Beauty Myth then. But you know, one of the, like, quotes that you see pulled out of that book all the time is, "A culture fixated on female thinness is not an obsession about female beauty, but an obsession about female obedience. Dieting is the most potent political sedative in women's history; a quietly mad population is a tractable one." And I just- I mean, unattainable standards of beauty are meant to keep us distracted, right? Like, they are tools used by the patriarchy to keep us spending time, and energy, and money on things that like really truly don't matter, and distracted from the things that do. In the book Anti-Diet by Christy Harrison, she kind of goes through like the history of diet culture. And one of the things she does is she like points out all these parallels between like times of upheaval in women's social movements, and the timing of shifting beauty standards. And she also cites back to Naomi Wolf, and like points out that when you look back at history, women getting the vote, women gaining reproductive freedom, women securing the right to work outside the home, these have all been times when beauty standards also started to become significantly thinner, and the pressure to adhere to those beauty standards also grew. And that like, just the whole point is to distract the people who are most harmed by the politics that are going on at any given moment. Of course, all of this stuff, you know, frames this as like women's politics and women's beauty standards, and that's extremely binary in terms of gender- especially, you know, the big issue in this midterm was reproductive justice, and access to abortion, which absolutely impacts folks who don't identify as women as well. And so, you know, we want to be more inclusive in our language around that. But in terms of how people have written about it in the past, it's largely framed around women. It's kind of impossible to ignore the parallels there, right?

Sadie Simpson: 22:11

Oh, my God. I know, it is. And I'm glad you pointed that out, too. Because I think these are the kinds of things we really need to be critically looking at. And sometimes it's easy to kind of gloss over some of the underlying messages, the underlying agendas that are going on. But this stuff is really, really, really important to pay attention to. So I'm glad that we're talking about it here on this podcast, because I think that can bring awareness for our listeners, and for other folks to be a little more critical too, when they're looking at articles like this, and kind of making some connections with what's going on socially, and maybe even in pop culture, to what is going on too like on a bigger societal level.

Naomi Katz: 22:58

Yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the things that, like when I work with people about like negative self talk, and- and, you know, negative thoughts about their bodies, and stuff- some of the reflections that I offer them are things like, what is this distracting me from and who benefits from this? And I feel like those are great questions for when we see these kinds of, you know, shifting beauty trends too. Like, what am I- what am I supposed to be distracted from? And who benefits from me being distracted by it?

Sadie Simpson: 23:30

Oh, my gosh, yes. Well, this is very timely, but have you seen all of like the AI generated photos of people on social- on social media. But it's been interesting to see how these AI generated images are shrinking people's bodies and making them look a lot thinner than they are in real life.

Naomi Katz: 23:53

I have noticed that as well. And, yeah, I've noticed that and I have been bothered by that.

Sadie Simpson: 24:02

Yes.

Naomi Katz: 24:03

And you know, it's not surprising. So one of the things we talk about in terms of, like, the algorithms for social media and stuff like that- like algorithms are written by people, and people have biases, and as a result, the algorithms have biases. I mean, AI is the same- like, the code that the AI is built on is written by people, and people have biases, and that's going to show up in how that code is carried out. Theoretically, the thing with AI is that it learns. And so, like, I've seen arguments that like one of the reasons why this AI thing is a thing is that the more people upload photos, the more the AI learns, and like, the better the code gets. And so maybe if more folks in bigger bodies upload photos, eventually the AI will learn about bigger bodies. But I have no idea if that's true. That is like pure speculation.

Sadie Simpson: 25:07

Me either. That's way over my knowledge of artificial intelligence and computer generated images and things like that.

Naomi Katz: 25:17

Yeah. All- all I know for sure is that code is written by people, and people have biases.

Sadie Simpson: 25:24

Fair enough.

Naomi Katz: 25:26

And we are seeing that play out in the way these AI images show up. That's all kind of like the- the high level stuff about beauty trends in general, and the timing of the stuff, and all of that. But like, let's talk about the actual trend going on here- this heroin chic trend, right? Like, just the name of it, right? Like the idea of a beauty standard that glorifies the aesthetic of addiction is horrifying. It's awful for like a number of reasons. Like, I mean, for one thing, it minimizes the struggles of people who actually have addictions, right. And considering the overwhelming destruction that the opioid epidemic is causing in this country these days, I cannot believe that we're holding this up as a beauty standard right now. I don't know. Maybe it- there's something there that we're trying- that we're supposed to be distracted from, too. Maybe it's like if we glorify the aesthetic then we won't be so horrified by the opioid addiction, and, you know, be so intent on holding pharmaceutical companies responsible. Not that we're actually doing that. But, you know? I have no idea. All I know is that like having these

Sadie Simpson: 26:46

Oh my gosh. two things happening at the same time is like mind blowing. I also think that holding up this trend of heroin chic- this trend that like glorifies the aesthetic of addiction- is also especially egregious in a time when we're making all weight loss synonymous with health. Like, how are we going to say that weight loss- that all weight loss is healthy, when we're comparing it to the aesthetic of addiction, and sickness, and illness? Right? How are those- how are we supposed to hold those two things at the same time? Because everything in our life is one freakin big contradiction. No wonder people are so frustrated, and get so stressed out, and so confused when it comes to things like pursuing health promoting behaviors.

Naomi Katz: 27:51

You are never going to become heroin chic by pursuing health.

Sadie Simpson: 27:56

No, no.

Naomi Katz: 27:57

I mean, it's in the name. That- you get that. And so yeah, what are we actually pursuing when we're pursuing the heroin chic aesthetic? You know, the other thing is we- we talk about how complementing weight loss is bad for like all kinds of reasons, and that one of those reasons is that you never know if you're complimenting an illness or something like that, right. But like, this is so much worse than that. This is knowingly holding up an illness as something to aspire to. It's like- it's- the intention is to compliment an illness, basically.

Sadie Simpson: 28:39

Wow, that is really messed up.

Naomi Katz: 28:41

It's so messed up. Like, no wonder we all have such a messed up relationship to body image and health and all of that stuff.

Sadie Simpson: 28:52

Yep. When the goal supposedly is to have the look of addiction.

Naomi Katz: 28:58

Yeah. And, you know, imagine how that might make it even harder for people to break free of addiction. If like, they're getting praise for how they look, or you know, for the aesthetic that they're upholding, even though they are sick. Yeah. It's just- it's- it's so- it's so problematic, and it's so upsetting. You know, the other thing that I have been reading about- and there is a an excellent Instagram post about this by Chrissy King, which we can link to in our show notes- but like body trends like this- like this heroine chic, superduper skinny- this like, bye bye booty, and curves, and big butt like trend disproportionately harms Black and Brown folks who cannot make their curves, or butts, or booties, or whatever go away just because the trend changes. You know, this article is basically like, hey, it's no longer fashionable to be Black or Brown now. So one of the things that Chrissy says in that Instagram post is that like Black and Brown aesthetics- the aesthetics of Black and Brown bodies- are generally out of fashion until a white celebrity decides that they want to make it in fashion- so, often through artificial means, make their own bodies fit that aesthetic. And then it's like, okay, Black and Brown bodies and those aesthetics are in fashion again now. But then as soon as white people decide that they don't want that aesthetic anymore, it's like, nope, nevermind, you're out of fashion again. Good luck. Side note- Chrissy King also has a book coming out called The Body Liberation Project. I'm super excited about it. And it's gonna dig even deeper into the way that anti-Blackness, and diet culture, and beauty standards are intertwined. And so we're gonna put a link in the in the show notes both to her- that Instagram post, and also to the information about her upcoming book.

Sadie Simpson: 31:07

Yes. And also, side note number two, if you live in the Asheville, North Carolina area, we are going to be reading The Body Liberation Project as a part of Body Liberation Book Club with All Bodies Movement and Wellness in June. I don't know how many times I can say body in one sentence, but it's a lot.

Naomi Katz: 31:28

Now are you spelling that BODi?

Sadie Simpson: 31:33

No, I'm most certainly not.

Naomi Katz: 31:35

I will never stop making Beachbody jokes.

Sadie Simpson: 31:38

Good because I love them so much.

Naomi Katz: 31:41

You know, the other thing that's important to note when we talk about how, you know, things like heroin chic disproportionately harm Black and Brown folks, and like make them out of fashion essentially, is again, we can sort of notice how that aligns with further marginalizing and distracting a group who is gaining political power, but who is also very, very at risk in the current political climate. That- that applies to this demographic as well. And so like, it's that same function of distraction, and, you know, who benefits from that distraction. You know, bottom line about this friggin awful New York Post article, and like the concept of the comeback of heroin chic, and all of that stuff- like, bottom line, body types are not trends. All bodies exist all the time. Because body diversity is a very real thing. And so like, you know, it's one thing for for clothing fashions to come in and out of style, and stuff like that. Like long skirts, or shorter skirts, baggy clothes, or fitting clothes, like high rise jeans, or low rise jeans- although don't get me started on low rise jeans- hair lengths, and- I mean, like so many things are trends that can come in and out of style because we can adapt to those. But a body type as a trend, like it implies that our body size and shape is totally within our control. And it's not. We know it's not. You know, we kind of have to get to this point where, when we see body types being propped up as trends, where we can go, that's not okay. Body types aren't trends. So having said all that, please don't feel like you need to pursue a heroin chic aesthetic. That is not- that is not what we're doing here. It's- it's bad. It's harmful, it can be dangerous- like it is absolutely not something that we need to be buying into as the critical thinking consumers that we are.

Sadie Simpson: 33:55

Yes. This is turning into a critical thinking podcast. and I love it.

Naomi Katz: 34:00

Same.

Sadie Simpson: 34:01

Awesome. All right, Naomi, what's satisfying for you right now?

Naomi Katz: 34:05

This weekend, I am getting together with some Jewish friends, and I am making latkes, as a like a pre Hanukkah celebration. And it is, I feel like, the first time that I am doing that kind of like Jewish community gathering in, I don't know, like very many years, and especially outside of my family. And so I'm really excited about it. And I'm using my great grandmother's latke recipe. And I just- like I'm- I'm so excited about doing that this weekend.

Sadie Simpson: 34:42

That is very cool. I can't wait to hear how it all goes. I have never had a latke before. I know.

Naomi Katz: 34:50

Holy shit, Sadie.

Sadie Simpson: 34:52

Growing up in rural North Carolina-

Naomi Katz: 34:54

I mean why would you?

Sadie Simpson: 34:56

-I have known- knew very few Jewish people.

Naomi Katz: 34:58

I will make some latkes special for you, and bring them to All Bodies for you.

Sadie Simpson: 35:05

Sounds good.

Naomi Katz: 35:08

What about you, Sadie, what's satisfying for you right now?

Sadie Simpson: 35:11

So last weekend, you and I got to meet someone that listens to the podcast, and that is in The Satisfaction Space with us. So that was very exciting. We've met some folks here locally in Asheville, who were like, hey, I listen to your podcast. But this was the first time- at least for me, I think for both of us- that we've met somebody who listens to the podcast, that's not a local person, that has been- that visited Asheville, that we've been able to meet up with. So shout out to Nadia, it was lovely to meet you in real life. But it was really cool to have that experience.

Naomi Katz: 35:49

Yeah, it was really fun. And I am really, really glad that we got to do that. Like just finding those kinds of connections is so awesome.

Sadie Simpson: 35:58

Yes, yes, it was. Okay, so that wraps it up for this episode. If you would like to support us by leaving a rating and review in Apple podcasts or Spotify, we always appreciate that, as that boosts us up in the podcast rankings, and it allows you to give us a little bit of feedback.

Naomi Katz: 36:20

Yep. And you can always find us on Instagram@satisfactionfactorpod, if you've got any feedback that you want to give us on these episodes, or suggestions for future episodes, and we always love to hear from you over there.

Sadie Simpson: 36:33

That's it for us this week. We'll see you next time.