Satisfaction Factor

#13 - Intuitive Eating Deep Dive: Respect Your Body

December 22, 2021 Naomi Katz & Sadie Simpson
Satisfaction Factor
#13 - Intuitive Eating Deep Dive: Respect Your Body
Show Notes Transcript

This week, Naomi & Sadie do a deep dive into Intuitive Eating Principle #8 - Respect Your Body. This episode is a great companion to Episode #3 - Body Feelings Are About More Than Our Bodies. While that episode covered a lot of the theory around our body feelings, this week's episode digs into some of the practices that can help us to cultivate body respect. This episode covers: how to deal with negative self-talk, why it's important to stop comparing ourselves to others, why representation of body diversity matters, why ditching the scale boosts body respect, what body-checking is & why it might be keeping us stuck, and a whole lot more!

You can stay up to date on all things Satisfaction Factor by following us on IG @satisfactionfactorpod!

And enrollment is still open for the 2022 cohort of Nourish & Bloom, Naomi's 40-week group Intuitive Eating workshop for free-thinking grown-ups who want to reject diet culture & cultivate resilience! You can get all the details, including pricing & the full curriculum, at  www.happyshapes.co/nourishandbloom!

Here's where to find us:
Sadie Simpson: www.sadiesimpson.com or IG @thesadiesimpson
Naomi Katz: www.happyshapes.co or IG @happyshapesnaomi

For this episode's transcript, visit: www.satisfactionfactorpod.com

Sadie Simpson:

Welcome to Satisfaction Factor, the podcast where we explore how ditching diet culture makes our whole lives more satisfying.

Naomi Katz:

Welcome back to Satisfaction Gactor. I'm Naomi Katz, an Intuitive Eating, body image, and self trust coach providing anti diet support to free thinking grownups who want to reclaim their autonomy and consent from diet culture.

Sadie Simpson:

I'm Sadie Simpson, an anti diet group fitness instructor and Intuitive Eating counselor, and I help other fitness professionals disengage from diet culture so they can improve program enrollment, engagement, impact, and retention without shame and manipulation.

Naomi Katz:

Hey, Sadie.

Sadie Simpson:

Hey, Naomi.

Naomi Katz:

So we are on episode eight of our Intuitive Eating Deep Dive series, so we're going to be talking all about some practical ways that we can cultivate body respect. But before we dig into that, just a heads up that Nourish & Bloom enrollment is still open, and we'll be open until December 31. Nourish & Bloom is a 40 week workshop based on the Intuitive Eating framework. So within the workshop together, we'll use this framework to explore topics related to obviously Intuitive Eating, and also the system of diet culture, cultivating autonomy, building body respect, and really building the skills we need to be resilient to the diet culture around us. Because we can't 100% escape diet culture. It is everywhere, and we can't really change that. But we can learn how to set boundaries, how to take care of ourselves, how to talk back to diet culture when it pops up, all of these things, so that it doesn't have quite the same impact on us. So the workshop starts on January 3 of 2022. And it includes 40 emails- so we spend four weeks on each of the Intuitive Eating principles, you get one email each week- and we really dive deep into the nuances and the applications of each of those principles. And then you also get 10 group Q&A and coaching calls- so one at the end of each of those four week modules. And there is also an option for a Voxer messaging app add on in case you're looking for some additional one to one support during the course of the workshop. Nourish & Bloom is priced for accessibility, and there's also two scholarship spots for folks holding marginalized identities or in financial need. That's no questions asked, you just need to let me know you want to claim one of them. You can get all of the details, including the full pricing, and the curriculum, and the link to enroll at happyshapes.co/nourishandbloom.

Sadie Simpson:

In this week's episode, we're continuing on with our Intuitive Deep Dive series, talking all about principle number eight today, respect your body. And often when we're working with clients- I know I've found, and I'm assuming that you found this too- it takes a long time to cultivate this sense of body respect. And I know I continue to go back to this idea of respecting your body, and body respect, and- and we just return back to this over and over again, when I'm working with people. Is that something that you've experienced, too?

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, that's definitely- none of- this one in particular- I mean, none of the principles are like one and done things, but this one in particular tends to pop up in different ways, repeatedly, throughout all of our work on the other principles, too.

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah, for sure.

Naomi Katz:

I feel like, of all of them, this one is the least linear.

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah, totally agree. And we dig into the idea of body respect in depth in Episode Three, and about how our body feelings are about more than just our bodies, and about how this isn't just about loving your body, and we share in that episode more about how we can even prioritize treating our bodies with respect that we'd show anybody else that we care about. So if you're interested in- in that side of things, be sure to check out that episode for a lot of nuance around the spectrum of body feelings, and why this doesn't have to necessarily mean loving your body, or even finding your body attractive. In that episode, we talked about a lot of the theory around body image and body respect, and today we're going to cover more of the practical aspects.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, I like that this is sort of like a two parter, almost, because there's just so much to cover on this topic. So I love that we've got like a theory episode, and then we've got like a practical- like how to cultivate body respect type of episode that I feel like that works really well together.

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah, totally agree. I like that, too.

Naomi Katz:

So on the practical side, sometimes I feel like it's helpful to start with, like, how are we disrespecting our bodies, and one of the main ways that we disrespect our bodies is by trash talking them. So, you know, like the practice of negative self talk. This is something that affects people of all sizes. We've discussed this before- that the lived experience of weight bias really only applies to folks who are actually in larger bodies- and the ways that we've internalized that bias, and the way that we reflect it in our self talk is definitely going to be different for folks who have lived experiences of weight bias and marginalization. In this case, we're talking about body image, meaning the way that we personally feel about our bodies, rather than the way that society feels about our bodies. These things are absolutely intertwined- like one definitely affects the other- but they're also definitely separate things. So people of all sizes and identities can experience negative body image and negative self talk, regardless of whether they actually experience marginalization in society. It's just like- I think we've even used this example before- like you can have thin privilege and poor body image, just like you can experience weight stigma and have good body image. This is very much related to those levels of fatphobia from Virgie Tovar that we reference a lot, where the body image stuff- how we personally feel about our bodies- is very much that intrapersonal level of fatphobia.

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah, and negative self talk and body image- they're not actually about our bodies, which is why they happen at all sizes, and this is also why can kind of change from day to day, or even hour to hour, and why negative self talk and negative body image- it can't be solved by changing our bodies. It's more about whether we believe that we're worthy of kindness, and respect, and common decency, and things like that. And that's why it's really important to address this by building some awareness around some of these narratives, and then questioning those narratives to see where they came from, how they're serving us, and if they align with our values overall. And that's what we'll do throughout the rest of this episode, again, give some really practical things to apply as it is related to body respect and that type of thing.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, I love what you said about how, like you can tell it's not actually about our bodies because it's not limited to just one body size, for one thing, and it changes so frequently even with our own bodies, and our bodies certainly aren't changing that quickly. So it's clear that our bodies are not actually the source of this.

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah.

Naomi Katz:

So one thing that's really helpful when we're approaching this stuff- and you've probably noticed that we do this with the other principles, too- is the first step is always to just notice what's going on. As I think we've said numerous times now, you can't change something that you're not aware of. So the first step here is really just to build awareness of when negative self talk comes up, of what you're saying, and how it makes you feel. There are a ton of different ways that we can do that. I think a lot of people find that journaling is helpful, but that's also not for everyone. So, you know, it's also definitely possible to do this kind of work, and build this awareness, and, you know,

Sadie Simpson:

Me either. I've tried. I've tried to be one of make progress with that just by kind of noticing and making mental notes. I know I personally am not a journaling person. I never have been. those people, and I just- like I am not.

Naomi Katz:

Totally. I can remember being in like school and having assignments where I was supposed to be journaling and- like that- that- I would get credit for that. And literally even though my grade was dependent on it, I still couldn't do it. I would get like zeros for those assignments. I just- like I can't- journaling is just not my thing. So, all this to say, as with anything within Intuitive Eating, like it's very, very important for you to make this your own, and to just really tailor it to your own individual preferences, and what works for you personally. So if that's journaling, awesome. If it's not, nobody's gonna give you zero.

Sadie Simpson:

Exactly. Hundreds for everyone. So whenever we're doing this awareness work, whenever we begin noticing when some of this negative self talk, negative body image, when some of this negative stuff comes up, it's important to question and to interrogate. And this is where we'll kind of get into a little bit more detail of how exactly we can do that. So one of the things that we can begin to ask ourselves, when we're engaging in negative self talk or something like that- would we say this to or about someone that we actually care about? And it's kind of wild, like when we think about some of the things that we say about ourselves, and that we think about ourselves, and that we think about our own bodies- would never say the things to other people that we say about ourselves. And it can be really helpful to kind of identify ways in which we're unkind to ourselves. And this also opens the door to kind of question why we think it's okay to talk to ourselves in a way that we would never even consider talking to others.

Naomi Katz:

You know, that's kind of deep work, honestly-

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah.

Naomi Katz:

-to interrogate that. And I think that this is definitely an area where sometimes people find that they need, like, to work with a therapist to really sort of sort through some of these reasons why we might not feel that we, ourselves, are as worthy of kindness as other people are. And so, you know, there's certainly no shame in that, if this is something that needs a deeper lens, and some higher levels of support. Like, that's actually really common here. So the second thing that we can sort of ask ourselves about the self talk that comes up is- where did I learn this thought? So we don't start off judging ourselves or our bodies. Like nobody's born thinking negative thoughts about their bodies. We learn to do that from a million sources. We learn that from our family, from our friends, from our teachers, from our medical providers, from the media- like literally from everything- because, as we've mentioned so many times, we are immersed in diet culture all the time. We all are immersed in diet culture. And so we've learned that stuff. This is very similar to the- what we talked about around food rules, where it can be really helpful to go back and identify the source of these beliefs, so that we can determine if it's a credible I love the idea of the archeological dig. I think source that we want to continue following. And interestingly, a lot of times the sources of our food rules and the sources of our negative body talk overlap. And so that's also something to just build an awareness around, so that we can make choices, or set boundaries, or whatever we need to do. And this kind of interrogation, this can happen on a case by case basis- like as something comes up, we can give it some thought- or we can sort of take the time to write out like a body timeline or a body story that really covers like all the major milestones in our relationships with our bodies. You know, things like when did I first feel uncomfortable in my body? When did I first start believing these things about my body? Like what events have reinforced that feeling since? And, you know, really sort of excavating. Brianna Campos, who is a brilliant body image coach, and has been one of my mentors- and she talks a lot about body image work as like an archeological dig- that there's these layers that you go through. And so finding ways to do that excavation, and really learn where all these messaging is coming from, is really helpful. And so once we've written out that kind of timeline or story, we can then kind of look at it and see how those things show up in our self talk. that's really- that's a very good visual for people who need that type of cueing, almost. I really like it.

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah, I also really love it. It's very, very helpful. And she actually does have a good graphic- like a visual of it- and it's perfect. That's awesome. Another way we can begin to kind of question and interrogate where these thoughts came from, is asking the question- who benefits from this thought? And I particularly like this one because, personally, I'm kind of motivated to cultivate change from a place of like anger- from getting mad at things that just don't feel good, that don't feel right. And I think that's where this can kind of come into play here. So this refers to- 100% to huge industries that profit off of us not being comfortable with ourselves, and not being comfortable with our bodies, and feeling like we need to be fixed. And sometimes this can refer to people, unfortunately, who are in our lives- maybe our family members, or friends, or just coworkers- people around us that attempt to make themselves feel better by making others feel bad. So, for example, maybe you've been around people who are constantly putting down strangers, or just making comments on people's appearance, or their clothes, or their bodies, or whatever. So even though that's not a direct put down to us personally, keeping those people around in our lives can be really challenging when we're trying to sort of re-establish a better relationship and more respect for our bodies. And the unfortunate thing, too, is sometimes these people are, again, our family members, or our co-workers. Like, have you ever been in any of these situations where somebody is just constantly commenting on somebody else? Oh, my God. Yes. 100%. But- Yeah.

Naomi Katz:

I mean, I think we touched on this a little bit on the- in the diet talk episode, too- about how, like, this is just a thing that people do. It's like bonding, it's just this-

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah.

Naomi Katz:

-like, oh, this is the conversation that we have with these people. And it's just so harmful.

Sadie Simpson:

It is so bad.

Naomi Katz:

But it's also important to note- like you said- that, like, you know, some people do that, and it's not malicious. Like, they're not really trying to gain anything from it- it's idle. There are some people though, where it really is like they're trying to make themselves feel better- like there is a benefit to them of having this conversation. And like, that's important to watch out for, and to sort of notice the difference between that versus I just don't know any better.

Sadie Simpson:

Right. Another thing we can consider when we're questioning who benefits from some of these negative thoughts, or these negative words, is like- does this align with your own personal values? So thinking about industries that profit off of insecurity, and marginalization, and just body negativity, and that sort of thing. Does that align with your values? And maybe you can see that messaging isn't for you. And then you can consciously choose to sort of disengage from that, or to spend your money elsewhere, from places that aren't feeding into some of these negative thoughts and beliefs. So another thing we can do, too, is just to kind of consider some of the conversations we're having with people. And some of the things that maybe our family members, or coworkers, or friends, or whoever are saying- some of the comments they're making. Can we change the relationship? Can we disengage from some of these conversations? And can we recognize that, again, like you said, the behavior- Is it idle? Is it because they just don't know any better that they're making these comments? Or are they maliciously attacking people, essentially?

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, and I think that one thing that's maybe helpful to keep in mind here too- or that sort of plays into this also- is that like, if we can identify that this message that we're hearing in our own head as self talk is actually echoing one of these people, or one of these industries, or something like that- being able to recognize it as not our own voice, and not our own thought, can also sort of help us feel like- I don't believe in that- that doesn't align with me. And then sort of the last thing that can be really helpful to interrogate this negative self talk when it comes up is- what is this thought distracting or protecting me from? So like we've mentioned, we all live in diet culture, and in a society that constantly tells us that our bodies are a problem, pushing our bad feelings onto our bodies, and trying to fix them by fixing our bodies, is basically like the path of least resistance. It just seems like the easiest and- and most reasonable way to do things because it's what we've been taught is the solution. And so when things feel like out of control or scary, we have a tendency to try to control our bodies. Partly because society is constantly telling us that our bodies both can and should be controlled. I don't know about you- I know we talked in the last episode about sort of noticing like an uptick in like comfort eating at the beginning of COVID- but did you like notice any kind of uptick in like negative body image or negative self talk when COVID first started?

Sadie Simpson:

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I can like specifically remember, like just a couple of weeks into the lockdown, thinking for the first time in a long time- like I started having thoughts of, oh, well, after this is all said and done, I can change my diet this way, or I can change the way I exercise this way. And I kind of, you know, caught myself having those thoughts. But that was one of the first times in a long time that I noticed myself having some of those thoughts of wanting to do things to manipulate my body.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, I definitely ran into some of that too. And I feel like I heard it from other people a whole lot as well. And you know, it's funny- again, in our last episode, we talked about how, like on social media and stuff, you would see all these people like taking up baking and stuff like that. But, if you think about it, the flip side that we saw so many people doing was like workouts, and diets, and like how to, you know, quote, unquote, stay fit during COVID, and stuff like that. And so, like, you can see how both of these things can be responses to stress, and feeling out of control, and being scared, and just negative emotions in general.

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah, it was definitely a response to wanting to find some control for sure- like wanting to feel in control of some aspect of life.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, totally. So I mean, I keep making the comparison to last week's episode about eating, and emotions, and emotional eating, and stuff. And the fact is that, much like emotional eating is often an expression of needs or feelings that we're not meeting or expressing, bad body image thoughts are very often about negative feelings and discomfort that have nothing to do with our bodies. And so, just like with emotional eating, it's really important to meet that with curiosity, compassion, and kindness. So you know, asking ourselves things like- what's going on in my life that has me feeling negatively? And really questioning whether we can offer ourselves some compassion for the fact that we're feeling hard things. And, you know, really recognize that it's normal to feel hard things, and that it's also normal to direct that towards our bodies in the society that we live in. And then you know, sort of proactively seeing if we can choose to treat ourselves with kindness by making choices that give us and our bodies what we actually need, instead of punishing ourselves and our bodies in an effort to control what is ultimately actually uncontrollable.

Sadie Simpson:

So yes, body image, negative self talk, is about how we personally feel about our bodies. But we can't really discuss body respect without discussing how society views our bodies. And that affects how we feel about bodies- not only our bodies, but how we feel about the bodies of other people too. And the fact is that we can't really do work on body respect without working on the ways that we can learn how to respect all bodies. And this work- I feel like we talk about this all the time, and we have to talk about this all the time- but it can't just be about how we feel about ourselves and our own bodies. It has to be how we interact with the world around us, and how we are impacted by systems of oppression, and how we also contribute to other systems of oppression, with our thoughts, and our actions, and our words, and that sort of thing. And I think we've referenced this book before, but if you're looking for more detailed information on how to get started with this work, there's a book called The Body is Not an Apology, and there's also a workbook that can go along with it, by Sonya Renee Taylor. And that's a great resource to check out if you haven't done that already. Yeah, that is for sure like the starting point for this.

Naomi Katz:

Like, I know the majority of the stuff that I Yes. coach around body image, and also about the societal impact of body image, and representation, and comparison, and stuff like that- like I have learned the vast majority of that from Sonya Renee Taylor's work, so. And you know, basically what we're talking about here is body shame. And body shame is a systemic issue. It doesn't start with us, and it also doesn't end with us. We already sort of talked about that we learn how to feel about our bodies from people around us, but also from systems that are designed to benefit off that shame. And those systems are constantly, in millions of big and millions of small ways, telling us what's acceptable and what's unacceptable in other people's bodies, and by extension in our own bodies. These systems really determine what bodies we see, and what bodies deserve to be hidden, because they're too different, or they're too dangerous, or they're too much. That really communicates to us whether our bodies are worthy of being seen, or whether we have to, like, basically choose between changing our bodies or being invisible. These systems teach us that there is a default, normal, ideal body. And they also teach us to compare all bodies, including our own, to that default, and to each other. And so, like, it builds this sort of system where the worthiness of our own bodies only exists in relation to how our bodies compare to other bodies. And you know, it's really important to recognize that those systems run really, really deep. And they really require us to do a whole lot more than respect our own bodies to dismantle them. But learning to divest from them internally is very much an integral part of the work. So we have, you know, previously discussed- again, in that episode number three- Sonya Renee Taylor's concept and definition of body hierarchies. And when we're doing this work, it's really important to look at how this hierarchy of bodies shows up in our own beliefs, and also what might be at the root of that hierarchy that's showing up in our beliefs. Some of these questions that we can ask ourselves about our self talk and about our beliefs about bodies are things that I have learned from the workbook for The Body is Not an Apology. So, again, that's an amazing resource to help work through some of the stuff. But some of the questions that we can really ask ourselves is, you know- what do I believe than an ideal body looks like? Or what a normal body looks like, for that matter? Where did I learn that this image was ideal, or was normal? And then, you know, to really sort of consider our media consumption. What messages about bodies am I getting throughout the day? And more importantly, what types of bodies am I getting messages about? And then lastly- and I think this one has been hugely impactful in my own work, and in my coaching, and in my work with clients- can you identify any systems operating in your beliefs about ideal and normal bodies, or in the messages about bodies that we're receiving from the media? So for instance, like, can I identify that this is something that's rooted in fatphobia, or racism, or ableism, or ageism, or like any of those things? Like to really be able to identify what system is showing up in that thought process is really, really powerful.

Sadie Simpson:

And that's why it's so important that we recognize that representation matters. So if the images that we see on a regular basis persuade us that some bodies are better than others- so that may be either through exclusion or through mockery- it will contribute to our own negative self image. And on that same note, if the images we see on a regular basis portray diverse body types in an inclusive and positive manner, it can contribute to a positive self image. And this is why it's important to start seeking out images and voices of people whose bodies don't necessarily fit in this traditionally accepted ideal of what we think bodies are supposed to look like from a societal level. And this is something that I know you and I both do- is encourage our clients and the people that we're working with to make a point to curate some of their social media feeds so that they are following people in diverse bodies, or who may look different than they look, or maybe who look the same as they look, so that they're getting just a wider spectrum of people in their bodies, living their lives. And that's why it's important to seek out pictures, images, voices of people from a wide spectrum of bodies. So this means fat bodies, trans bodies, bodies of different races, disabled bodies- all the bodies that diet culture, and fatphobia, and racism, and transphobia, and ableism prevent us from seeing being represented in mainstream culture. And when we see people in a variety of bodies just living their lives, again, it just gives us the chance to see a different reality that's more representative of actual society- that we don't all fit into this narrow cookie cutter definition, and we don't all look the same. Nor should we all look the same.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah. You know, it's so interesting- and it's only within, I don't know, maybe the past five years that I've really started to notice this- but like, when you go to the beach, or you go to a public pool, or something like that, you see so many bodies.

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah.

Naomi Katz:

And it's people just playing with their kids, and swimming, and laying out on the sun, and having a good time, and hanging out with friends, and like all the things that people do. And they're in all kinds of bodies. One of my favorite things about going to the beach at this point is literally just being like, look at all the body diversity. It's so amazing to just see it all in one place like that. And yet, like if you Google beach, or like bikinis. or like bathing suit, or like summer fun, like any of that stuff, the images that you're going to get, by and large, are people who are a very specific one type of body. And so if we don't really make a point of recognizing and noticing how body diversity actually exists in the world, it's really, really easy to think that it doesn't- like to think that what the media is showing us is actually the truth.

Sadie Simpson:

I love that you gave the example about the beach, because I've definitely experienced the same thing of going to a public place like the beach and be like, wow, like everybody is different. This is great. And I think that's such a vast difference than the view I had at the beach prior to doing some of this work. Because it was all based in comparing what my body looked like to the people I viewed as having this ideal body, or what do I look like compared to what they look like? Or if you saw somebody even in the same bathing suit that you were wearing- like I can vividly remember seeing someone at the beach like wearing the literal exact same bathing suit I bought at Old Navy, and I was like, huh, I wonder how I look in my bathing suit compared to this person looking in their bathing suit. So I think that's really telling of how doing some of this work can really shift your experience in the setting like that.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, that's so interesting. And that's such an important point too- which is that, like, if we're not consciously building this awareness of representation, or lack thereof, it almost blinds us to that diversity when it is there. Because I feel the same way. Like I- like I said, I've only started noticing this in like the past five years, which is also when I've been really, really intentional about cultivating my own awareness of body diversity outside of these experiences. And so, but before that- yeah- I'd be at the beach, and it's almost like I didn't see the bodies that were different from the media representation. It's almost like I could- like I- my mind like, honed in on, like, the perfect bodies, to exclusion of everything else. And I think, you know, there's some conditioning going on there. Like I think that's sort of the point. And so that's one of the reasons why going out of our way to be intentional about this work really changes how we see the world. Yes, it changes how we see our own bodies, but it literally changes how we see the world.

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah, I think that's a really great segue into talking about how it's really important that we put in the work to unlearn comparison. And I know we keep mentioning Sonya Renee Taylor, but I think that's, again, just such a great resource, because in The Body is Not an Apology, there's a great explanation of the harms of comparison, and it definitely applies here, too.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, when we recognize the the systems that are impacting our body shame, and when we can see that these body hierarchies really do actual harm, we can also see that the practice of comparing ourselves to other people really only works to uphold those systems and hierarchies. It puts us in this place of like constant competition with other people, where like we only gain value by devaluing others. And we talked a little bit about how that's one of the things that maybe we see around other people's commentary on bodies and stuff, and we just- like unlearning comparison is one of the ways that we can make sure that we are not doing that. Of course, that doesn't mean that letting go of the practice of comparison is easy. It is very deeply ingrained in us, and dismantling it takes time and intention. So, as always, we kind of start doing that by building an awareness of both our actions and our feelings. You know, we start to notice how often we might be checking out other people's appearance, or external characteristics of any kind, really. And then noticing, you know, when you do that, how do you feel? Like how do you feel if you think you look worse? How do you feel if you think you look better? Because that's super important too. How does comparing yourself to other people affect how you feel about that other person? You know, how does this affect our interpersonal relationship? And then always, always coming back to that question of what systems are represented in the ways that we're comparing ourselves to others, and the ways that we measure up? Because, again, actually naming the systems that we're seeing really, really makes a difference.

Sadie Simpson:

So that's a lot of mindset work. And body image work is definitely a lot about mindset work. But there are also some practical ways to practice body respect. And it- like everything else that we talk about- it is a practice. The more we treat our bodies with respect- or at the very least, like, stop treating our bodies with disrespect- the more we can feel respect for our bodies, or at least stop feeling some of this disrespect. And breaking down some of our old habits and routines and learning new ones- it takes time, and it takes practice, and it takes repetition- all of which are things that we don't like. Because, again, diet culture wants us to have these like immediate quick wins and quick fixes. And that ain't happening here. Like this is something that takes a lot of time, and a lot of attention, and a lot of patience, and possibly a lot of frustration. But in the end, it's it's worth it for sure.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, I think that's something that is so important to recognize, especially because of how often even Intuitive Eating- it's marketed- and I think we've talked about this before- it's sort of marketed as like food and body freedom. That really overlooks like the amount of work that has to go into it before you get that freedom- that like, initially, you're actually going to spend a whole lot more time thinking about food, and your body, and society, and systems, like all of this stuff. It's not enough to be like, I'm going to ask myself these questions, and I know which questions to ask. You have to actually ask the questions. And not just once. You have to ask-

Sadie Simpson:

Like over and over.

Naomi Katz:

Repeatedly.

Sadie Simpson:

Yes.

Naomi Katz:

Over a lot of time.

Sadie Simpson:

Like forever. Yeah. And so I just think it's really important to be like, super, super open about that, because- I don't know- it just- it's- it's a lot more work, over a lot longer timeline, and a lot of conscious and intentional work that I think gets overlooked in like the social media version of this stuff. Oh, for sure. This is not a 12 week solution. This is a lifetime of hard work, Which- PS- is why Nourish & Bloom is 40 weeks instead of 8, or 10, or 12. Yeah, and really even like that's just scratching the surface and open the door for like, way more stuff too.

Naomi Katz:

Exactly. Yes.

Sadie Simpson:

I love it. So let's talk about some really practical, actionable things that we can do to kind of break down some of this stuff, some things that our listeners out there, maybe they haven't considered trying before. So one of the things that we can do to kind of cultivate more respect for our bodies is to ditch the scale and to stop weighing ourselves. And the reality is most of us never really even need to know how much we weigh. And the same can be said for our doctors and medical situations too, by the way. Weight is just one single data point. And it's information, but it's rarely information that we actually need, unless maybe we're competing in some kind of sport that uses weight classes or something like that. But ditching the scale gives us almost an instant boost in body respect and our ability to be able to listen to our body's cues. And I think it's interesting- like our relationship to the number on the scale- it affects everything. Say, for example, you get on the scale and you see a number that you like to see, or that you want to see- it affects us. Or you step on the scale, and you see a number that you don't want to see- it affects you. Like, whichever way it is, it's going to have some sort of impact. And we tend to have this emotional attachment to the scale, and like a lot of us have this attachment to a very specific number, or a very small number range. And this attachment to this number and to the scale- it really amplifies this voice in our heads that says we need to shrink, or we need to be hungry, or we need to deprive ourselves, or we need to work out more, or we need to do all of these things. And these messages are just voices and words that have been there for so long, that they can drown out other messages that our bodies are sending us, telling us that we need to nourish ourselves, that we need to rest, that we need to thrive, that we need to do these things to fulfill our individual needs. And this is really true when it comes to the practice of listening to our bodies and tuning into what our bodies are telling us. And it's really, really, really hard to do, whenever we're so focused on the scale, and to a specific number, and that sort of thing. Like it's really hard to do all of these other principles- to honor our hunger, and to feel our fullness, and to respect our bodies, and to make peace with food, and all this other stuff- like it is very hard to do any of that, when we're so honed in on a number, or we're so accustomed to this habit of weighing ourselves every day, or just being just drawn to this thing.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, that's absolutely true. It's- it's amazing how that number can override literally everything else. And you know, we've talked about this before- that like weight maintenance is the same as trying to lose weight. And I think a lot of people think, like, well, I'm not trying to lose weight, like I'm just observing the number, or I like I just want to make sure that I'm not going up, or anything like that. And it just- it doesn't matter. It's this external source of like stress, and emotion, and narrative, and everything. And it's literally not useful information to us. It's not an indicator of health, so getting on the scale doesn't tell us how healthy we are. It's not an indicator of anything really. Like it's- like you mentioned, even doctors don't actually need to know what we weigh, with the exception of like some very, very, very specific instances involving like medication dosage or anesthesia dosage or things like that. 99% of the time, even our doctors don't actually need to know what the number on the scale is. So why are we doing it at all?

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah. Well, I know I've worked with multiple people who were in the habit of weighing themselves, if not once per day, multiple times per day. And the idea of not weighing themselves regularly was very scary for them. And I know a couple of people that I've worked with- like that was a big part of what we did together, was tapering off of this idea that we feel like we have to weigh ourselves every day in order to stay accountable, or order- in order, you know, to maintain, or to be at a certain number, or whatever. And if ditching the scale is something that feels really scary to you, know this- you're not alone. But it's something that can also be done in multiple ways. Like some people are good with just stop weighing, cold turkey, like I'm done, no more, this is it. And that's great. But some people may need a little more of a process, like some baby steps. So instead of weighing ourselves every day, what would it feel like to weigh once a week? And then kind of using that to expand on- okay, well, instead of weighing once a week, what would it feel like to weigh yourself once a month? And then, you know, just continuing on from there- maybe every other month, maybe every six months, maybe once a year, whatever it is. Like, again, this is a personalized process. And it doesn't have to be a cold turkey thing. There's a lot of benefit and a lot of positive things that can come out of not being so obsessed with this habit of weighing or what the number on the scale says.

Naomi Katz:

For so many of us this is a sense of control.

Sadie Simpson:

Yes.

Naomi Katz:

And I think for some people that's not even about the number. It's like the practice makes us feel like we're in control somehow. I think people often have the same kind of relationship to like fitness trackers. You know, sometimes it can be helpful- like you're totally right, I think tapering is a really great way to sort of work through that discomfort and that sense of being out of control. I've definitely seen that work for people. I also think that sometimes it's helpful to like find something else to track, if you really feel like you have to track something. So like mood, or sleep, or something that is more like subjective, and not quite so like emotionally laden and narrative laden. So I mean, like, just some things to consider if like you feel very, very, like out of control without that scale- or the fitness tracker for that matter.

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I love

Naomi Katz:

This is the the interrogation episode. And I think in the meantime, we can sort of, as always, ask that. questions, interrogate the feelings that we're having when we're on the scale, right?

Sadie Simpson:

Exactly. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Something tells me that our audience isn't going to pick up on my Monty Python references. But that's okay. Somebody will.

Naomi Katz:

My mom, at the very least, definitely is going to get that joke. But yeah, like, in the meantime, you know, if you are going through the process of like tapering off of weighing yourself, you can ask yourself things like- how are you feeling before you get on the scale? Like this- one of the questions that I think is so helpful is like, what information am I hoping to obtain by getting on the scale? Like, what is the purpose of me getting on the scale right now? And I've definitely worked with folks before who like, that's the question where they're like, there is no purpose- like, there isn't any information specifically that I want from the scale. And that- like, that tends to be the question that makes them be like, maybe I just won't get on the scale. So that's a really impactful one. If there is some specific information you're looking for, what are you going to do with that information? Because sometimes that can also be really impactful. Like, oh, okay, so the information I want is how big or small my body is, and what I'm going to do with that information is control my food. Well, I don't want to do that, so maybe this isn't helpful. Like really sort of working through what is the purpose, and what am I going to do with that information. And then, again, really paying attention to feeling- So how do you feel before? How do you feel during? How do you feel after? Like, how does that number change how you feel about yourself, and your mood, and how you feel about food, and things like that?

Sadie Simpson:

And another thing we can do, that's kind of along the same lines of getting rid of the scale, is wearing clothes that fit and that feel good on our bodies. I know, we've talked about this before, but getting rid of some clothes that no longer fit on our bodies is a really important way that we can show our bodies respect. And that can be true for us wearing clothes that are too small, and for those of us that are hiding in clothes that are too big. And clothes that are too small cause actual physical discomfort. And it's like we're basically punishing ourselves to wear smaller clothes, because of our body size. And then, on the other hand, clothes that are too big reinforce this narrative that our bodies don't deserve to be seen as they are. And obviously, like, we get the option. We have the choice to consider what is comfortably fitting for ourselves. And some of us might like a little more room- like we might want our clothes to be roomy. But the key word here is comfort in whatever end of the spectrum- like what is comfortable for you, what feels good for you individually.

Naomi Katz:

That's- I think we we often only hear one side of that. And the reality is that both of these things can be upholding certain narratives. And you know, this topic all around has a lot more nuance than we might see in social media, or the mainstream, and stuff like that. And I believe we talked a little bit about this in that episode number three, also- but it's really, really common for getting rid of clothes that don't fit to come with, like a feeling of loss. And that's really very valid. I think- when I work with people, and they go through this, like, they're always like, I know this sounds shallow, but I don't want to give up this thing. And it is so not shallow to feel grief about giving up clothes that don't fit anymore. Clothes are like an expression of ourselves and of our identities in so many ways. So letting go of clothes that held special meaning, or that we felt like they reflected us really well- it's hard. Like it can kind of feel like we're letting go of a part of ourselves. And I mean, symbolically, maybe we are letting go of a past version of ourselves. And incredibly natural to feel sadness about that. There have been some things that I've been very sad to let go when they've no longer fit me. The problem is that you've got a lot of people, again in social media and the mainstream, really minimizing this experience with that, like, just wear clothes that fit kind of advice. I think we all know at this point how I feel about advice that begins with just.

Sadie Simpson:

Yes.

Naomi Katz:

And, you know, it's notable that a lot of that just wear clothes that fit advice comes from folks in smaller bodies, for whom it is generally like a lot easier to find the clothes to replace the other clothes. We all might feel like a sense of loss and sense of grief about clothing that we loved, and replacing that clothing, and stuff. But it's going to be a lot more difficult for folks in larger bodies to find things that they feel equally express themselves than it is for somebody in a smaller body. And so that's very important to recognize as an aspect of why that just advice isn't super helpful.

Sadie Simpson:

Even though we can feel grief, we can also understand that by letting go of this past version of ourselves, that we're making a little bit more room or space for our current or our future selves. So we can feel grief, and we can believe that our current selves, and our current bodies deserve respect.

Naomi Katz:

Always the both/and.

Sadie Simpson:

Yes.

Naomi Katz:

Never the black and white.

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah. And we don't have to minimize the significance of this experience. We don't need to shrug off our feelings of sadness. Like we can be in the moment, and we can experience those sad feelings, and we can hold space for that. And it's like- it's all valid.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, definitely. Like, it's just- we're humans. We have complex emotions about things. And like, we're allowed to honor all of that humanity in this experience. You know, having said that, there are some ways to sort of approach the practice of getting rid of old clothes and replacing them with new ones that can sort of help ease this process. Before we start the task of like cleaning out a closet, to really like take note of how we're feeling, and what else might be going on in our lives. So like, are we already stressed out? Are we PMSing? Are we hungry or tired? Is there anything else that might make this process a lot harder than it- and a lot more emotionally taxing than it needs to be? Like, if possible, trying to save the task of going through our closets for a time when we're feeling grounded, and safe, and well rested, and healthy, and like all of these things that are just going to make it so much less emotionally volatile for us. You know, the other thing is to just start small and take our time with this stuff. It can be really tempting to feel like we need to clean out our closets all at once. But like we actually don't. As always, it's not all or nothing. That's not how we do things. So it's totally okay to like do this stuff in pieces, like as our emotional responses allow us to. So maybe we start with one drawer, maybe we give ourselves like a time limit to start with- like, I'm going to spend half an hour doing this, no more- and then just sort of check in with how we're feeling before deciding if we're going to do more. The other thing is that you don't actually have to get rid of things right away. I think sometimes getting the clothes out of the house, giving them away- like actually getting rid of them is like very jarring, initially. So sometimes people just need to pack them up and put them out of sight somewhere, so that they're not confronted with them every time they open their closet or their drawer, but like, they're just not quite ready to say goodbye fully yet. And like that's okay too- like you do this at your pace. That's the most important thing.

Sadie Simpson:

I just did that with my kid's toys. As we're getting ready for Christmas, I've put a bunch of his toys in a box and hid them. Because I'm just- I know there's going to be an emotional response. So at least they're kind of there, but they're not completely out of the house yet. But

Naomi Katz:

That's like the perfect analogy.

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah, well, you could always do the old Marie Kondo route, too, and take each piece and like, wish it well, and whatever that whole thing is.

Naomi Katz:

Whatever, whatever- the process.

Sadie Simpson:

The other side to this is honoring this grieving experience of kind of getting rid of some of the clothes, and recognizing how does this idea of holding on to clothes in hopes that our body size will change again, and that we may again, like fit into some of these clothes- like just kind of just thinking about and considering, like, just those two sort of sides to that spectrum too.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, absolutely. We always just sort of have to weigh where are we at- like, what's- what's the- what's the best thing we can do in the moment. And like, yeah, sometimes getting rid of it entirely in order to bypass that sense of like, I'm holding on to this with hope thing is the better choice. But we all have to sort of decide that for ourselves- like where we're at. And then of course, there's the process of buying new clothes, which can be exciting and fun, but it can also be super stressful. I mean, obviously, we all want to make sure that we're shopping at places that will accommodate our bodies, in the sizes that they are today, here and now. And then once you found where you're going to shop, you know prioritizing comfort and fit. So this is my go to technique- and there's some privilege in it, so- as there is with any kind of buying new clothes, right, but like, obviously, there's levels of that. But if you're shopping online, and you have the option available to you and accessible to you, it can be really helpful to order things in multiple sizes and return the ones that don't fit. And, you know, that when you're trying things on, to walk, and sit, and like generally move around to see how something feels first, before looking in the mirror. I actually- I outgrew my winter coat, and so I need to buy a new one. And so I literally have like 10 winter coats coming to my house in the next two days. And like, obviously, I'm only going to keep one of them. But this way, I can walk around the house in them, and try them on, and see what fits, and make a choice that like actually is going to accommodate my body.

Sadie Simpson:

I love that. You have a little fashion show too.

Naomi Katz:

Oh my god. And every time I do it- because Ben is great, and like gives me opinions and stuff- but we're huge Office fans, and so every time I pull a Kelly Kapoor and I go fashion show, fashion show, fashion show at lunch!

Sadie Simpson:

Oh, I love that. Well, I was thinking back to one of the previous clients that I worked with- when we were talking about this, one of her personal values was supporting companies and businesses that prioritize environmental sustainability. And whenever she was looking at purchasing new clothes, that was something that she took into account, was instead of like going the fast fashion route, was going the more sustainable route. And again, that's another component of privilege that has to be included in this aspect, because some of these more sustainable brands, unfortunately, do not make bigger sizes. Like a lot of these- these sustainable brands stop at like, extra large or 2X, and they don't go any bigger than that. But just an example of just something else to consider, like whenever we are updating our wardrobes, or making purchases, or things like that. And you know, maybe it's not environmental sustainability, but do the clothing companies- do their values align with yours? And is it possible to purchase from companies that kind of have a similar value system? And again, that might not be accessible to everybody. But it is just an option of something to consider too.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah. And it's another way to sort of make the whole process feel very affirming and empowering. So there's this thing called body checking that I think is really important to talk about. So once we've stopped weighing ourselves, and we've started wearing clothes that actually fit, there are still kind of a lot of ways that we might be monitoring our bodies on a regular basis. In various social media groups and stuff that focus on body positivity, especially like mainstream body positivity, you got a lot of talk about non scale victories. And it is remarkable to me how many of those non scale victories are in some way or another a body checking behavior.

Sadie Simpson:

Mm hmm.

Naomi Katz:

Just throwing that out there. Something to be aware of when we talked about body checking. And these are all things that we're really doing to try and reassure ourselves that our bodies are acceptable. Body checking can show up as like poking, or pinching, or prodding certain body parts. It can show up as like, when you look in the mirror or in photos, like really zooming in on certain body parts instead of like seeing our whole selves. In some cases, it can show up as actually measuring certain body parts. And it also can show up as like having a certain pair of pants that you always try on to see if they fit. Like there's a lot of ways that body checking shows up, where we're still monitoring just as much as we were with a scale or a fitness tracker. We're just not using a scale or fitness tracker.

Sadie Simpson:

Oh gosh. Well, one time, I did a whole entire like, workout program- it was like a progressive strength training program- but the whole entire focus was being able to fit in your body checking pair of jeans or whatever. Like it was really-

Naomi Katz:

Was it actually called that?

Sadie Simpson:

No, it didn't say that. Well, I mean it may have. I don't have the book anymore. But like, the whole premise of the program was to be able to fit into your ideal jeans. Like you had- at the beginning, you chose your jeans.

Naomi Katz:

Gotcha.

Sadie Simpson:

And like you- the- by the end of the program, you've checked yourself based on these jeans. And I thought it was so interesting. Even at the time- like, of course, like I did the program- but I also thought- I was like, well, like, how is this any different than checking based on a scale versus based on like, my pant size? Or how my pants feel? But anyway, yeah, whole entire workout program was centered around this whole thing. Yeah. Wow. That's some marketing right there. Yeah it is.

Naomi Katz:

But it's so interesting. This is what I mean about non scale victories, is that like, I feel like so often, these posts are like, non scale victory, I fit into these jeans today. And it's like, how is that actually different from a scale victory? It's not. You know, all of these body checking behaviors reinforce the idea that there's a right or wrong way to have a body. They all revolve around the idea that our bodies shouldn't change. These are all focused on like controlling our bodies, and they all serve to interfere with our ability to live peacefully in our bodies the way they are. You know, if we're going to talk about how do you address body checking behaviors- honestly, because I think they're basically the same thing as weighing ourselves or using a fitness tracker, I actually think that we sort of practically approach them by doing sort of the same things that we do to let go of the scale- like working through some of those same steps, and like maybe weaning ourselves out of them after we build awareness, and noticing how we feel when we do them- things like that.

Sadie Simpson:

I've noticed that with some of the people I've worked with, that all of these things kind of go hand in hand. Like if someone is a habitual, weigh themselves on the scale type of person, there's also some habitual body checking, and habitual fitness tracker-ing, and like, a lot of these things are behaviors that complement one another.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that people, often when they're doing this work- like on some level- they know it's best if I don't get on the scale, it's best if I don't use my fitness tracker, and the body checking stuff tends to like not be quite as obvious. And so it tends to linger a lot longer- Mm hmm. -unless we like, pay attention to it.

Sadie Simpson:

Yes. We can also turn our attention to some behaviors that actually help us cultivate positive body respect. So instead of picking our body apart, and instead of just looking at all of these negative pieces, or things that we perceive to be negative, what if we intentionally made a point to start paying attention to and to noting all of the good things? So like, even after we started doing all this work of body respect, it's normal to have days or times when we still feel stuck in some of these negative feelings about our bodies and about ourselves. And even like doing something as simple as creating some lists of positive things that we know to be true about our bodies, and about ourselves, can be a really helpful practice of something we can use to refer to, during those times we're feeling some more of those negative things.

Naomi Katz:

I like to think of these as like positive lists, I guess. So one of them is a gratitude list. That can be so helpful. Like when we're feeling bad, it can be really hard to think of anything to feel grateful for. And so having a list to refer to can just make it easier to get through those hard times. And so, for a gratitude list, you know, you just list as many things as you can think of that you appreciate or feel grateful for about your body. One sort of nuance to this, that I like to sort of work with my clients on, is that when we're making this list, we try really hard not to focus on what our bodies can do. And instead, try focusing on what our bodies are. Abilities change, just like appearance changes. Like we wouldn't want to put on our gratitude list something like our wrinkle free skin, because someday, that's not going to be the case anymore, and then what are we left with, and- or do we have to wrestle with this whole thing about wrinkles again, then, if that's one of the things that we're holding up for gratitude. Ditto for abilities. If like, you know, one of the things you're grateful for is your ability to wrestle on the ground with your kids, what happens if, for whatever reason, you can't do that someday? Or your ability to hike- like okay, but what about- what happens if you can't do that someday? And so we really want to focus on things that are more inherent to ourselves. Basing our gratitude on productivity or ability really kind of reinforces ableism, and capitalism, and those narratives. So like, we want to try and avoid that as well. So we want to try and find things that are just more permanent and like less changeable. So for instance, instead of saying the ability to give hugs, which like- I don't know- what if you break your arm or something, and you can't do that? Like, what if we said, the capacity to give and receive physical affection? You know, there's just- there's ways to frame these things that are not quite so transient, I guess.

Sadie Simpson:

I love that. I think that's really important to recognize that we don't have to be so focused on the things we can do specifically, and can really start to think like, just more broadly a little bit about this. And another thing we can do is make a list of five things- like five things we like about ourselves that have nothing to do with our bodies. And if you're not really sure where to start on this, try asking your friends and family what they like about you. And for some of us, that might be super awkward, but I think it's such a great practice to do, even if it feels a little bit uncomfortable, because you would be surprised, and maybe even just really happy, to hear some of the things that other people say that they like about you. Doing that exercise of asking your friends and family is worthwhile to do even if you can make your own list. Yeah.

Naomi Katz:

Because I think, a lot of times, one of the things that comes up for people around their bodies changing, and weight gain, and stuff like that is like, what are- what will people think of me? Or how will it change how they see me? And so having this conversation with friends and family about like what they like about you, and realizing that literally nothing on their list has anything to do with your body, can really help to ease that fear of how people are going to feel about you, or see you, or like how it's going to change your relationship with people somehow if you gain weight. It's very unlikely that any of them will list anything about your body in those lists.

Sadie Simpson:

Nope, they will not. Unless you have like some really cool tattoos, or- then maybe somebody might say, I like your cool tattoos or something. Sometimes it's hard to think about our bodies in terms of liking, of using the word what do you like about me, when we often struggle to find things that we like about ourselves. So another way to do this might be to consider, try writing down five things you don't dislike about yourself, and then go from there. Yeah, that's a- that's a good point, too. Like, we always want to bring it to a level that we can approach, so. Yes.

Naomi Katz:

And then, you know, I think one of the biggest ways that we show our bodies respect is through self care. It's really important to know that taking care of ourselves is body respect. So you know, feeding ourselves regularly, taking our medicine, pleasure, honoring our emotions, setting boundaries, asking for help, rest. All of these things are ways that we show respect to our current bodies. And the more we can make sure that we're caring for ourselves in like all the ways, the more we can show our bodies that we believe that they're worthy of respect. That just carries through so much of our lives. So next week, we are going to dig into principles number 9 and 10. We're actually combining those into one episode. And that's all about joyful movement and gentle nutrition. So these are very different from what you might find in diet culture related to nutrition and exercise. I know- shocker. So be sure to tune in and find out how we address these things within the Intuitive Eating framework. Sadie, what's satisfying for you right now?

Sadie Simpson:

So I am embarking on a new slash old journey of returning to the world of personal training. And this is something that I haven't done in a while. I did a little bit of virtual training, like during COVID. But- but not a whole lot. But I'm really excited to kind of get back into that, because I'd been kind of hesitant to take on personal training clients, because in a typical gym setting, it's very hard to- one, to kind of promote yourself as an anti diet personal trainer when the majority of the people who are seeking personal training are specifically seeking weight loss. But it's just- it's been a weird thing for me to kind of navigate. But I'm really excited to start taking on some in person and some virtual personal training clients through a local studio here in Asheville, who- their whole foundation is on anti diet work and more body inclusive work. So I'm really excited to- to jump in on that. And I'm not going to say the name yet because they are actually in the process of changing the name. So in a couple of weeks, whenever that is officially announced, I'll tell you all about it here on the podcast. It's amazing. And so awesome. And I'm so excited for both you and for this local studio to have you. I'm really excited to just kind of get back into that. Like it's it's been a while and I'm just- I thought I would be very hesitant to do something like this, but I'm actually very excited, so. Yeah, finding the right place to do it is huge. Yeah.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah. It's- we're so lucky to have a place like that here-

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah.

Naomi Katz:

-locally. So yeah.

Sadie Simpson:

Alright, Naomi, what's satisfying for you right now? Okay, I just I already know you're gonna laugh at me when I tell you this. But- so do you watch Ted Lasso? I haven't- I do not- like I don't even know what service it's on. I've seen people post about it on social media though.

Naomi Katz:

Ted Lasso is an Apple TV show, and it is one of my all time favorite shows at this point. And in Ted Lasso, he brings these like shortbread biscuits to his boss, like, basically every day. And my parents recently sent me- there's a store near them that started making Ted Lasso's shortbread biscuits. And they sent me like a whole box of them recently. And oh my god, they're so good. The thing is, like, even like in the show, the thing is that like, these biscuits are like, so good. They're irresistible, basically. So there's there's two layers to this, basically. So first of all, I love like, imagining what fictional food tastes like.

Sadie Simpson:

Oh my gosh, I do too.

Naomi Katz:

Do you really?

Sadie Simpson:

That's so weird, yes.

Naomi Katz:

Okay, so like my most- I like- since I was a kid, like I have such a vivid memory of- you know in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, when like the one kid eats the Turkish Delight? I have no idea what- to this day I don't really know what Turkish Delight is. But I have like such a vivid imagination of what that tasted like. Even to the point of- do you know the book Phantom Tollbooth?

Sadie Simpson:

Mm hmm.

Naomi Katz:

There's like a scene in Phantom Tollbooth where like the character eats a letter A and describes what it tastes like. And I can remember being a kid and being like, I totally know what that letter A tasted like. It's just like- this is a thing that like ever since I was a kid is one of my favorite things. And so I had in my head a very specific idea of what these biscuits tastes like. And oh my god, these things my- my parents sent me taste exactly like what I had in my head.

Sadie Simpson:

No.

Naomi Katz:

Which is like the most satisfying experience ever.

Sadie Simpson:

Um, yes. That sounds like the most amazing, most satisfying, perfect thing ever. That is so funny. Now I've got to watch Ted Lasso. But, anyway.

Naomi Katz:

I mean, you should anyway, because it's wonderful. And then like, on another level to this, it's like- it's very, very satisfying to me- so, I should tell you the box that they sent- like these things are so dense. And the- like in the show, it's this little tiny box with these little pieces of biscuit. This is like massive. This is like a brick of like shortbread biscuits, basically. Like I took it out of the box and was like, this is so heavy. Like, and the bars themselves are like very, very large, and shortbread is very rich. And so like I've just been, sort of, throughout, like, you know, each day, and like a little bit here and there, I'll like break a little piece off of one of the bars, and like eat it, and then just go about my day. And it's been really satisfying to just be able to do that without like sitting down and being like, well, I have to eat a whole one of these bars, and then feeling sick afterwards, and whatever. It's just like- it's always so nice to have these experiences where we get to like see how all of this Intuitive Eating work plays out in real life to make our whole experience around food like so much more satisfying and enjoyable.

Sadie Simpson:

Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad you shared that for so many reasons. I think that is like the greatest story ever. So come let us know, if you're listening to this, on our @satisfactionfactorpod Instagram page, what's some fictional food that you've always either wondered what it tasted like, or that you can taste- like in your mind you already know what it tastes like. Come let us know.

Naomi Katz:

Yeah, for sure.

Sadie Simpson:

And if you enjoyed this episode, not only can you connect with us on Instagram @satisfactionfactorpod, but you can also support us by sharing this podcast with your friends, and on your Instagram stories, and things like that. And you can subscribe, and on Apple podcasts, if you can leave us a rating and review, we would be so grateful because that helps us reach more people. Yes, we always appreciate that. So thanks, everybody, and we will see you next week.