193: The “Strong Woman” Lie That’s Breaking Us In Small Churches | with Dee Bryce

Women have often been told to be strong, hold it together, and do it all for everyone else. But the truth? That version of “strength” is quietly breaking us — and it’s breaking our small churches too. In this episode, we name the lie, call out the pressure, and talk about a better way to live and serve.

What you’ll hear in this episode:

• Why the “do it all” mindset isn’t holy at all
• How invisible labor is crushing women in small churches
• The hidden cost of always being “the strong one”
• Why burnout isn’t a failure, but a warning sign
• What strength looks like when it finally stops breaking you  - lighter, freer, and actually livable

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Transcript

Laurie Graham: 0:01

Hey, welcome to the small church ministry podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I'm your host. Laurie Graham, let's dive in. You. Hey friends, welcome back to the small church ministry podcast. We are so glad you're here this September. As mentioned last week, we're doing something special. It's lead well month around here, as we head toward our lead well conference. So what I'm doing is I'm sitting down with some of our conference speakers to give you a taste of the conversations we're going to be having together. And I think more than a taste of the conversation, it's like a taste of the people, like it's the people who are going to be here, who are going to be sharing our hearts and our lives. So if you haven't heard, lead well for women in small churches, is a free one day event coming up on September 27 if you're listening live, tickets are live. They are free. Just go to smallchurchsumits.com and grab one. Today's episode I've really been looking forward to. We are tackling a myth that many of us have lived under, and this is the idea that being a strong woman means holding it all together, carrying the weight and doing it for everyone else. Now, before the men tune out, stick with me for a minute, but I want to talk about the truth of this statement, that the strong woman holds it together. We just do it. We hold it up. That version of strength. We are just calling out to say this is not holy. It is really harmful, and it is quietly breaking women in small churches and breaking our churches too. Now if you're a guy who is listening, please stay tuned in and listen, because while this might not directly impact you, it does, and I really believe that as we grow in curiosity and understanding of each other, of all the people around us, older, younger, men, women, children, everybody like it helps us be better and become more of the church that God has in mind. So today we're gonna jump in. I'm joined today by my friend Dee Bryce, who has not only lived this strong woman, let's call it a lie or a myth, but she's also walked alongside so many women who are carrying these exact pressures. So Dee, I would love for you just to do a quick introduce, introduction of yourself for everybody. Just share whatever you want. Anybody listening to

Dee Bryce: 2:25

know. Okay, hey, Laurie, it's great to be with you again today. I always love when we have this time together just to get into meaningful conversation about things that really matter and they have a subject that is so, so dear to my heart. But before I dive into that, okay, so for those of you that don't know me, I'm Dee. You can probably tell from the accent already that I'm across the pond in the United Kingdom. I live in a place called Yorkshire, um, otherwise known as God's own country. Absolutely, yes, it's a fabulous place if you love hills, trees, green grass, fields, sheep. It's lovely. It's a lovely place to live and a great place to raise family. So I've been in Yorkshire pretty much all of my life, apart from living for a few years in Wales, which is another beautiful part of the United Kingdom. So feel really blessed to have lived in some of God's best spaces in the world. So more about me. I have two sons, two amazing sons, grown sons now. So that's really kind of weird, different for adults in the house. So this is the first year for us kind of living that out. So it's, it's nice just to kind of like build some new dynamics with all the adults in the space with all of its highs and challenges, I'll just say challenges. Yeah, I work full time. I am bi vocational, so I support my husband, Tony in ministry. We've been pastors for coming up to 14 years, and we planted Olive Branch Community Church in January 2012 and so it's been an interesting journey of doing small church ministry, life, yeah, as a wife, as a mother, as an employee, And as a bi vocational pastor, as a person. So there's a lot there. I have a demand, quite a demanding role. So it's not unusual for me to be on a plane, train or in the automobile, going somewhere. I love to travel. That's one of my passions. Love to travel. My other passion is I love people dearly. Yeah. Yeah. I love all things women's ministry. That's the place that God has rooted me in and planted me and caused me to stand and to run and to champion women everywhere. I have such passion for God's daughters. I want us to live well, live the best that we can, in terms of everything God's put on the table for us. I want us to enjoy it. I want us to enjoy life. And so that's where I spend most of my time, the women's ministry that that I founded 2012 is called flourish, because that's my passion for women, that we would flourish, that we would blossom, that we would be everything that God calls us to be, yeah, so that's meaning. And I like,

Laurie Graham: 5:48

yeah, I love it, and I love that you gave so much background. Because so sometimes people find our community and they're like, Well, you don't understand, I have a demanding, full time job, or I have kids, and I'm like, we all do like we are all in the same space. This is one of the things I love about having a ministry organization that's really focused on smaller churches, because in larger churches, that's not always the case, like you're paid full time to do what you do, and you only do one job, right? And we're like juggling all the things that I love that your women's ministry is named flourish, and as you talked about blossoming, that image is so different than the woman spinning all the plates, right, pulling her hair out, running in and out of church, being so focused on doing all these things, never taking a break, you know? So if we could just put that image of flourish in our mind, I think that would be so different. So you and I have both seen how often women in small churches feel the pressure to be strong, right? Hold it together. Do it because nobody else will. But behind the scenes, it's exhausting. So let's start, Dee, you and I with the big picture. Like, when you hear the phrase strong woman, what comes to mind? And also, why do you think women in small churches get told, whether it is, you know, like literally told, or whether we just have that assumption that we're supposed to be the strong one so often. So what comes to mind, and why do you think women in small churches especially feel

Dee Bryce: 7:11

this? Okay, so I'll be honest with you, when I hear the phrase the strong women, the strong woman, it makes me cringe a little bit. It really does, and especially as a pastor's wife and woman in leadership, because the more responsibility you have as well. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you are a pastor's wife, you could be a volunteer in charge of a department, and you just have lots of responsibility for resources and people. There's an expectation that you're supposed to be strong and you're supposed to be able to keep going regardless of whatever that you have unlimited energy. And as I'm speaking, I'm thinking of a song that comes to mind, and it's talking about God. The song is, You are God alone. And it talks about him being unshakable, unstoppable, unmovable, and and he's the only one that has that strength to possess that, yeah, we do not have that. So when I when I hear the strong woman, it concerns me because, one it's almost devoid of the need for others, because none of us exist in isolation as an island. We need one another. And the other thing that springs to mind is that we think that we're supposed to just continue like that. We build an expectation within ourself as well, that we're supposed to stay strong regardless of whatever's coming at us. And like I said, Only God can kind of hold that, that power. Yeah, he that level of strength.

Laurie Graham: 9:00

I love that when you said those words, unshakable and unstoppable as you were, as you were mentioning the lyrics of that song, it was like, yeah, those words were never meant to describe human beings exactly like we're made human. So when you think about that pressure, where do you think it comes from?

Dee Bryce: 9:14

Okay, so for different women, I guess it it comes from a different place for different people. So I will speak for myself. So my experience was I was brought up in a staunch Pentecostal environment, which meant I was trained to be tough, trained to be strong. It was an environment that was critical of weakness, and therefore it was it was fear riddled. You didn't want to show emotion or weakness, or there wasn't any way you could go to find help if you felt that you were off track. I was literally in church every night of the week, including school nights, everything that was everything you do. It was scrutinized. And so you are very quickly learned that I had to position myself as unmovable, unshakable, unstoppable. And so I grew up watching other women doing similar they were able to spin plates. They were working in multiple roles in the church. They had large families that they were raising. They were serving their

Laurie Graham: 10:26

and we honor that, we celebrate, that we like put them on a pedestal and say, this is this is beautiful. And I think that pressure from the church culture, like we talk about, like burnout is not a badge of honor, like we say that phrase. But how often do we actually honor the people who are exactly doing too much, burning out, not admitting their weak, right? So? And

Dee Bryce: 10:50

then we were told we had to be strong to cheer up, even when loved ones had passed away. You know, these were words you would hear, cheer up, be strong. We were taught to deny ourselves, take up our cross, just a complete misinterpretation of Scripture, you know. And so we didn't tend our bodies well, we didn't look after our mental health, we didn't steward our finances. We didn't understand our triggers or where to get help with traumas, you know. So, yeah, so it kind of comes from a formative place. It's not something that happens overnight. And for the and for the woman that doesn't necessarily know the environment that I'm talking about, you can also come into an environment that's where that's already steeped, yes, and so you very quickly learn to adapt, to operate in that way? Yeah, yes. And

Laurie Graham: 11:43

I think, like, as you're talking, I think the external, you know, the things that are kind of externally weighing on us that we're supposed to be, we see this model it it becomes internal, and it almost becomes self, self imposed, because we've seen it, and we've also been part of honoring it. So this pressure is really real. And honestly, a lot of times we haven't questioned it. We've literally lived like this for a decade or two decades or eight decades, like, I mean, like, as long as we are and we're carrying it, but there is a cost to this now. Dee, you have served so many women who are quietly burning out. Like, sometimes the burnout is not really public. It's It's quiet, quiet. It's kind of happening behind the scenes. And when women are trying to do it all, be it all, and hold it all together, what does that look like? What have you seen? Oh, wow, yeah. The cost of it like, that's what I want to type is, yeah. Cause the impact of this lie that we're supposed to hold it all together, sure.

Dee Bryce: 12:41

So, so the cost, I think, for women, because we're naturally, will not necessarily be vocal about what we're feeling and thinking. It can be seen in a variety of different ways, but two ways spring to mind. One is, you may see somebody still showing up, but the joy is gone, yes, so it's almost like you become a shell. So the outside looks the same. But if you are discerning, you can see in the eyes of people when the Yeah, it's like the spark. It's like the spark went out. The Spark has gone out, the smile might be weaker, or the smile is completely fake. So it's like we're now putting on a brave face. The anxiety is higher, the tone is snippier. I've seen it in women so many times, even in church settings that I've been in, where you can mistake somebody's irritation for aggression, when actually they're very anxious and the irritation is high because they're so tired, yeah, yeah. Or you see them attend less, they start to withdraw. The attendance is intermittent, the cancer. And

Laurie Graham: 14:02

sometimes we call it like, Oh, they're getting so uncommitted. And I think these are signs, and if we're paying attention, right, we actually could be there for each other in a totally different way,

Dee Bryce: 14:13

sure, for sure. And one of the things that spring to mind as I was thinking about this is that when we're seeing that we also need to understand that when someone is burning themselves out in the church, that's probably not the only place that they're

Laurie Graham: 14:26

stretched. Yeah, so true

Dee Bryce: 14:30

things going on. So there may be personal or family health issues. They may have family challenges, they may have marital stresses, they may have work demands, they may have financial burdens, they may have all of those at the same time, going on at the same time, and where we're judging what we can see in the tech space when that's just another thing. So I think when we are setting up programs, we just need to be mindful when we're setting up our programs and systems. And just understand that people are doing life in a plethora, plethora of different settings. Yeah, and each of those settings have their unique challenges.

Laurie Graham: 15:09

Yeah. And, you know, as we talk about the strong woman, one of the things that that's coming to mind for me is when, when there's a lot going on and somebody is pushing through, and we know they're going through a lot like we even, we might even be totally aware this is happening in the church, this is happening in their life, this is happening at their work, and they're pushing through. And we confirm it as strength. We say they are so strong, but really it's exhaustion, and burnout is the natural result of exhaustion. And so so many women, while we're calling them strong self included, they feel like they're failing inside, like, I'm not strong like, like, burnout is a personal failure. I didn't do this, right? I didn't take care of my myself, right? Like, we we think of it as a personal failure. And I want you to speak to this a little bit D, because I know you see it differently. I've heard you speak on burnout before, so why do you think it's important to reframe burnout not as a weakness or failure but as a warning sign or an invitation to something different,

Dee Bryce: 16:11

right? So I think the important thing to remember is that we have urgency, and I think what happens is, when we get to that burnout place, we've we've handed it over to someone else, we've handed that power over to someone else, and we're normally handing it over to someone else based on their convenience or their comfort. Yeah, and I can speak to this honestly as not just someone who's volunteer, but also someone who, as a church leader, has has had to sit on both sides of that and understand the impact of a volunteer not being able to tell me or not feeling they can tell me when they've reached that burnout point. Yeah, and it's really important that we see that as leaders, we see that as Department, Department leaders, that there are people who we have removed their agency based on how we've set up our systems and set up our programs. So

Laurie Graham: 17:54

yeah, I want to talk about the word agency really quickly, because you and I use that like, that's part of our lingo. It's been part of my lingo, but it's, it's very much in the mental health field. I know Tony is in the mental health field, and if anybody's been to therapy, it comes up. But I, I'm, I'm always aware that some people are not familiar with that word, because when I've mentioned it, sometimes people are like, What are you talking about? Okay, so when you think of agency. If somebody's listening right now and you're saying like we feel like we don't have agency, or sometimes we even say somebody's taken away our agency, or it feels like they have right? What do you mean by agency?

Dee Bryce: 18:28

Okay, so I will, I will reframe, I'll reframe that. I put it in a different way, so we can reach a point where we feel as though what we are doing, or the place that we're standing in, standing there because someone has placed us there and we don't we no longer have the power to move ourself out. Like we don't have a choice. We have no choice. We start to feel as though we are trapped, as though there is no there's no way out, and we need someone else to give us permission to change that situation, to move us out of that situation that's making us feel helpless, like We can't, like we can't move out of a situation that we're in. It becomes something that is no longer an enjoyable thing. It feels as though we're now under duress, yeah, and that we have to do it because somebody else is Yeah. Feels like they're forcing us to do it, yeah, when actually the reality is they're probably not even aware of how we're feeling, because it's internal. So the feelings have been strong internally, and it's very difficult to be able to, at this point, articulate to someone how you feel and that you need. It's almost it almost feels now like you need to escape that situation, you start to feel unsafe, yeah, yeah, in that situation, because you no longer feel as though you can state your requirement or your intention without it having implications or repercussions. And so we continue to suffer in silence, and it's just not a good place. Yeah?

Laurie Graham: 20:18

Agency basically just means we have a choice. And I think it's very biblical, yeah? Like that, we have a choice. And we also hear and even say it ourselves a lot. You don't understand, I don't have a choice, right? You know, when we suggest healthy things in our small church ministry community, in our Facebook community, at our conferences, like, how many times you've heard somebody say you don't. Understand I don't have a choice. We always have a choice. Always have a choice. And if anybody's listening right now and you feel like, No, you don't understand, I don't have you do, I'm just gonna tell you you really do. And there is nothing that you are in or going through that is completely unique to you. Right? Your situation may feel very, very unique, but even there, I'm going to tell you the weirdest situations I've heard that people been in there. We have so much in common as humans, like you're not alone in what you have so Dee, what would you say right now to a woman who's listening and feels like I should be able to handle this, I should be able to handle all this, but inside, she knows it's not going well, like she's running on fumes. What would you

Dee Bryce: 21:21

suggest? Okay, so I think the first thing is understanding how you got there

Laurie Graham: 21:31

in the first place. So good, so good. I didn't know you're gonna go there, so good.

Dee Bryce: 21:36

How did we get here in the first place, and just just bear with me for a few minutes while I unpack this, because I think it's really important that people understand, we understand the difference between capacity and capability. Yeah, two different things. So capacity, we can go all the way back to the very beginning of creation. God created us. He created the earth. He filled it. He didn't pack it, but he created an ecosystem that works on seasons, that allows for new growth, full bloom, pruning, shedding and hibernation, so those times of just coming away and resting. So this is part of the ecosystem that God created. Yeah, the reason why he did it that way so that we can keep filling, so that the Earth can keep filling within its capacity. So every system we see is designed to function well within its capacity. So whether that's yes, education, economy, healthcare, whatever, so when we push and stress and break the boundaries of those systems, we see chaos. Because whilst the system has amazing capability, it has overreached in its capacity. Yeah, wow. No matter how incredible that system is, no matter how much power that system has, it no longer functions well, and in some cases, will never function again as it should, because we broke the system. And so you're thinking, what has this got to do with our, this kind of Superwoman mentality, you know, in terms of, you know, the burnout thing, it's got everything to do with it, because the church is another system, but a God ordained and divinely ordered system to function in a way that does not require individuals to break their internal ecosystem to get things done. Yeah, and as women, we seem hard wired to multi function, and men seem to be better, better at being singularly focused and specializing on a specific task or a specific number of tasks. But as women, we assess our capability, and then we dive in based on capability, even when we've already stretched our capacity. And yeah,

Laurie Graham: 23:58

well, and as you're talking like Dee, we have a whole nother conversation to have another day about the capacity of the church, because this has implications personally and also in our in our small churches, sometimes our capacity is stretched. We're breaking our churches because we're trying to do okay, but that's another conversation, so let's get back to us. Okay, I'm totally tracking with you. And I love this also, because even in our state where we feel like we're exhausted, you know, when you say you got to understand why you got there, yeah, sometimes I can go into a blame place. Well, it's a very fault I got here. And there's also, there's always a both and, like, I also allowed it, like I I wasn't really watching myself. I was, you know, and I'm not saying there isn't bad behavior, you know, stuff that's hitting us, you know, that we're part of, like, you could be in some, you know, kind of toxic, kind of, I don't know situations and things like that, but I'm always a part of it. Like, I'm always in it because I had agency a year ago, but I didn't know it then. But now I know it right. Like now I know it so this lie of being a strong woman that sometimes may be breaking us right? There's good news about this. There's a different way to think about strength. So if you redefine strength for us, D, right, like, if you can think about like, what does strength look like, okay, in the honest, you know, the the way that I think God would create it to be, not the strong woman, not the super woman, but what does strength look like if it's not breaking us? Does that question make sense? It

Dee Bryce: 25:31

absolutely does make Okay, great. It does make sense. And I think it goes back to the conversation we were having about. Agency about choices. Yeah, so strength looks like choices. It looks like the courage to say yes, the the courage to say no, yeah. It looks like being free from the from judging yourself, but it also releases you from the judging of others and serving for Jesus, and not for likes or accolades or to cover the guilt that you're feeling internally about if I don't plug this gap, if I don't fill this hole, I'm not going to look good. Or what will people think or how, what would Jesus think of me? It it's strength that looks like that, that is is confident in the relationship that you have with the Lord, that when you do decide to serve, you're doing it from a place of, it's a healthy place. You're doing it from a place of, I'm serving because it's my heart, it's my passion. Yeah, we serve, and not because of any other, any other thing that is giving you a sense of worth through activity. Because I think that's the challenge a lot of the times as well, for us as women, is that because we're trying to find our worth or our purpose, we throw ourselves into activities and things thinking that purpose is found there. Yeah, purpose is found without a badge or a title or a position. You know, it's who you are. It's, it's what makes your heart beat faster. It's the things you know you want to get on a soapbox and and talk about, you know, where God fills your heart with passion for a certain thing or a certain topic, or if or for certain people, or, well, you know, whether it's evangelistic in nature, whether it's teaching in nature, whether it's administrative, doesn't matter what it is. So purpose is not connected to activity per se. And I think we sometimes get confused with understanding what those distinctions are, and because we find a sense of worth in serving, we do more of that. But if there's an underlying and I don't want to get into the psychology of you, know where it's coming from, because that's another conversation. But sometimes it's coming from a deeper place where there's such a low feeling of self worth, that the more I pour myself into activities, the more I empty out myself, it's somehow going to make me feel more worthwhile when actually it doesn't, because that's something else that needs attention. It's a much deeper place. Yeah, well, and

Laurie Graham: 28:15

I love what you said earlier, when, when I talked about, where does the pressure come from? Because you're like, it's really like, it's really different for different individuals, because, like, it's not just, oh, you know, people with a low sense of self worth, although I would, I would kind of push back that a lot of people don't know. We've had a low self of sense self worth. We've been through it and we didn't know it. You know what I mean? Like, some people are just really high functioning, like you said. Some people grew up with this. Sometimes it's an outside pressure, sometimes it's a spouse pressure, sometimes it's a church expectation. Like this could come from so many different places, and most of the time we're not even aware, like even if we try to figure it out, there's usually underlying things. You know, as I get older, I learn more and more underlying things, right? So, but before we before I get to the next question Dee, I didn't tell you I was gonna say this, but as you're talking, I'm like, I'm always aware that I want people who are listening to know, hey, we're friends like, I'm friends with you. I'm not. I have not arrived. I am not like, we are sharing our journey with whoever's listening, right? And you, Dee, have not always been perfectly healthy in this way, like you've taken some sabbaticals, you've had some exhaustion, you you and Tony have even done interesting things with your church, where you've like, programmatically, step back. Can you share just a little bit? Maybe just just so we're a little relatable, because we haven't really shared any of our kind of struggles. I know I'll share one for me, one for me like I am. Something I became aware of just in the past few years is just my faith journey, that as we get older, how we connect with God even shifts, right? So that that desire to keep doing and the setup and the the programs and all that, yeah, I was like shaming myself that I didn't really want to do that as much anymore, right? But something was shifting in, kind of, my faith journey, and I kind of had to do a big old pullback, like, wait a minute, what's going on here? Yeah, and take a little time off from programming. And I think there's a little pendulum shift. Sometimes it goes, you know, we're way at one end and then way at the other, and then we kind of come back to the middle. But do you have anything that comes to mind that you'd like to share about, like your own journey with burnout or exhaustion, or woman ish for

Dee Bryce: 30:24

sure? So 2014 I was diagnosed with chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia. Wow. And I know 100% That came from a place of being all things to all people, absorbing every little thing that was going on, not just in the church setting, also in a work setting, but more so in that whole church space, doing everything, being in charge of events, coordinating people, burying my head in the sand. When stresses were were going on, you know where there was church drama and you're just absorbing everything like a sponge. It's just going in, but nothing's coming out. You're not dealing with it, not speaking to anyone about it. So now I have a very different view of coaching, mentoring, counseling, therapies. They're so, so important. If you are in any kind of leadership role, any kind of ministry, ministry role where you are serving people, make sure you have an outlet for the pain that's going in. Yeah, and so the result for me was a complete life shift in terms of how I manage my my time, my energy, how I process emotion, what I will tolerate, what I will no longer tolerate, how I will live outside of the normal church ministry box, where I'm expected to be present and show up for every single meeting, all confession. I've been home all day. Today, it's Sunday, I've been home. I took a day, a day off for no reason at all, other than I needed it. Yeah? And I always say to people, it's better for you that I take a break, yeah, you know, I need it, but it's also good for you that I take a break, because then you get the best of me. And so since 2014 I've kind of been on that journey in differing degrees. Yeah,

Laurie Graham: 32:40

yeah, oh, I love it. And, you know, I'm so glad that you're speaking at the lead well conference coming up. Like, it is such a great place to have so many of us together, sharing the gut level, honest moving toward health. Like, how can we not just do better, right? But, but, like, be better. Like, like, being absorbing, like, what God created us to be in and not just do, not just do. But so for women who are listening, who've been kind of carrying it all for years, sometimes there's examples which we've kind of already hinged on, already, like, where you just there's a hard stop, like, yeah, it just has to stop. Or we're burnt out, or we end up in the hospital, or, you know, like, even mental like, like, this is a breakdown point. I need to be done for a while. But for somebody who's listening, who's been carrying it for years, who maybe they're not there, where, where could we start? Like, what are some smaller shifts that people listening right now, who aren't ready to take a sabbatical, or say, oh my gosh, you know, I need to, you know, overhaul my whole life, right? What are some small shifts that that might start lightening the load?

Dee Bryce: 33:45

Okay? So they are small shifts, but it's also a big shift for for people who don't actually see it as an issue, because that's the, I think that's big thing, agreed, and I was there for many years. I didn't think it was an issue. I was high functioning. I can, you know, spin a lot of plates. I can survive on four hours sleep. I can do that for I could do that for days. Can't do it well. I could do it for days. I'll speak past tense. I can't do it now. So for those people, I would just say, think about one, the fact that you're not always going to have that level of energy, because functioning like that has an end point. Yeah. There are also people observing you going at 150 miles an hour, and would love to serve with you in ministry, but don't think that they can go at that pace. So that's the reasons I slowed down, because I wanted people to come alongside and work with me, and then I realized that actually they can't go at my pace. I'm going too fast, and to learn from me, for them to feel as though they are they're contributing. Well, people were initially worried about serving with me because they didn't think that they could do it as as well as me or as quick as me. And that's kind of a wake up point, a wake up call for me, because I realized that I was also hindering other people's ministry journeys, things that they want to get involved with, that they're too afraid to, you know, come alongside me and get involved because of my speed, you know. So, so I think there's learning points there. Just have a look at your schedule, revisit the schedule and ask yourself, one. Yeah. Is this a schedule that you would give to somebody else? Yeah, to do? Can you see anybody in the church that could could go at that pace? If you look around and you think, actually, no, nobody can do it like me, then that's not, that's not a badge, that's not a that's not something to honor yourself with. That is something to consider and ask yourself, why is that? Yeah, and also, if Jesus isn't the supreme motivation for service, and he isn't asking us to wipe ourselves out in the machinery of church life, why are you doing that? And so I think it's just asking a couple of simple but deep questions just to explore and get under the hood of your own motivation as to why you're doing as many things as you need to do. Think, as I said, think about other people that might want to serve alongside, but maybe quietly, because they won't tell you, they'll be quietly observing you, the speed that you go at, and the standard that you set so high that they can't reach. And so when that burnout point comes, because it does,

Laurie Graham: 36:51

yes, it will come. It's, it's inevitable. If you're running really hard right now and you think, Well, I can do it, yeah. It's, you won't, yeah,

Dee Bryce: 36:58

so, so it's, it's just really planning for that. And I don't want people to plan for burnout, because it's not a place you want to get to, because once you burn, it takes a long time, yeah, to to restore. And so we don't need to get that point. We don't, do not need to get there. You know, there are small changes that you can make now, even if it's just bringing one or two other people on board to work alongside you. And I'm, I'm enjoying the journey building the flourish team, you know, like I said, flourish plant in 2012 and God really had to rag me, you know, to slow down, and also to bring others along, and we've got a great little team now. They love being part of the flourish. I'll call it a movement, you know, because yeah,

Laurie Graham: 37:45

and I want to just say, you just said 2012 so this is 10 plus years later, and I think this is huge, and it's a huge shift we all need to make. Yeah, we try to start, let's say, a women's ministry or an outreach, and the first thing doesn't go well, and the second thing doesn't go well. And we're like, we've been trying to get somebody to help for a month or for a year, and nobody's there. And I think that timeline of saying, Yeah, you know, like, like, let's develop something and build something. And no, you might not have your ministry partner this year, right? No, you might not have a great, successful event. Your your first one out, your second one, your third one, exactly, but learning and moving through it. And I think when we think about this healthier way of doing ministry, right, of not being Superwoman, of not spinning all the plates, of saying, Hey, we don't have to go at 50 miles an hour, because it's not healthy for everyone else, even if we can do it, even if we have the exactly the ability, right? It's not healthy for the church. I think this is when we start moving from from serving out of depletion, or out of where we feel like we don't have a choice or we don't have agency, to actually serving from a place that's sustainable. I love this word, like, is it really sustainable? And it's it's lighter and it's easier. And I just want to give a couple examples. And do you see if you can think of a couple too? Like, like, what feels healthier, what looks healthier than some places? Because one of the things that came to mind for me is Sunday mornings. For me, I was a pastor's wife for many years. I was also on staff at a church when I was young and when I was middle age and in between. So I've been volunteer, I've been staff member, I've been pastor's wife. I've just done like it all in different places. And Sunday morning for me now, and I'm still serving, when people ask me to do things on a Sunday morning, tap my shoulder and say, Hey, did you do that? Did I literally can say now, hey, Sunday mornings is the time when I connect with Jesus and with other people. I love to have great relationships and great conversations. Could we talk about that midweek? Yeah, like, could you just hang on to that and like, call me in the middle of the week. Here's my email, here's my phone. I really try to limit church business, even program stuff on Sunday mornings, I literally just say, Hey, this is, this is time for me and Jesus and me and people, and that's really great. But, yeah, that's one of the things that, for me, is like a sign that it's just healthier. What's what's one for you? And it could be one for you, or one that you've seen, or one that you've coached women on. Or what do you think is another sign?

Dee Bryce: 40:16

Okay, so I guess it depends, again, what, what position volunteers holding, whether it's if it's if it's a leadership one, for example, I'll give one pastor's wife one, okay, and then I'll give her a volunteer example. So pastor's wife one is. People love to come and present me with the dilemmas that they might have about the way that the church might function in a particular way, or an idea that they've got where they think we can do things better, or there was maybe a situation that they'd like some follow up or feedback on can you give me an update on what's happening with ABC? And I will say that's not something I can help you with. You'll need to speak to leadership, because nice and the past is why. So I'm not part of the leadership team.

Laurie Graham: 41:15

We had a change. Let me ask you, How many times have you said that phrase? I'm just gonna tell everybody listening right now. The first time you say something like this, it's weird and hard. Like the more you practice it, it gets really easy, doesn't

Dee Bryce: 41:27

it so easy? I've said it so many times. I can't I can't count. Can't count, count a little bit. I can't count. How many times I've said it, if I somebody gave me 10 pounds for every time I said that phrase, I could go shopping. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, because you you need to learn to not absorb everything people are demanding from you in that moment. And as a volunteer, because I also volunteer in the church, I'm part of the worship team. I still oversee certain things or support in particular areas of ministry. And if somebody comes at me and they they're wanting something right now, or asking me a question, and if I'm midpoint in a conversation with someone, and they'll they'll just come and they'll want, where's this, or where's that? Where's the toilet roll? No, yeah, it could be something so, so basic. And I'll just say, if we can, if you can, just bear with me. I'm just having a conversation right now. Yeah, I'll come back to you later, and we'll have a good conversation about it when you've got my undivided attention. Yeah, you know what, right now. And they immediately back up,

Laurie Graham: 42:36

yeah, another thing I've done is I don't give decisions on this, right? Ever. Anymore. People ask me things, even something silly, like, you know, or something simple, like designing a slide. Could you do a slide? I said, Hey, let me think about that. I can get back to you, you know, or, you know, give me a buzz later, or something. I do not commit to anything on the spot ever, anymore. And you were going to give an example about a volunteer too. So you gave a leadership example, yeah. So

Dee Bryce: 43:00

I would just say one of the things that I do more now is use my email a lot more. Yeah. So when people ask me, will you will you participate in this? Or could you sing here, or would you get involved with ABC. I'll say, could you drop the detail on email? Just drop all the detail on email, and then I can review it and get back to you. Yeah, oh,

Laurie Graham: 43:28

I love this, and I do this as well. I used to say, I will get back to you, or I can't talk right now. I'll give you a buzz. I don't do that anymore. I say, oh my gosh, anything you say to me, especially if it's a Sunday morning, I'm gonna forget. So please, like, send me an email and I will. I will do that too. I love it. So look at love it. So much. All right. Dee, we are almost running out of time, so before we kind of close, is there anything that you wanted to share, whether it's encouragement or a story I know you. You probably took notes, because I know how you are. You're so intentional. And is there anything that we didn't cover or talk about that you would like to share, or even just last words of anything? Sure.

Dee Bryce: 44:07

Yeah, I would just want to encourage. It's just really to encourage and to say, because this is this, this little two letter word that people really feel so so uncomfortable with but it's absolutely okay. Jesus understands when you need to say it, it's really okay. It doesn't feel natural when you say it, especially when you've used three letter word for so long. You're probably wondering now, what are these three and two letter words, yes and no. So we get so used to saying yes based on our capability, as I was saying earlier, and it's having the courage to say no based on our capacity. We cannot continue to pour out of an empty cup and to give what we don't have. The best place we can give from is following a series of our point of rest, because some of our best work comes out of rest periods, some of the times that you know for some away. So yeah, yeah, you come out of that rest period so much more energized with new downloads, with more energy, more enthusiasm, more zeal. It's okay to take a break. You are holding up any part of church life. In your mind, you're thinking, if I put it down, it's going to fall. Yeah, then you shouldn't be holding it to put it down. That I think of, and this is, this is a bit of a morbid example, but if you think of a coffin, it's a six man lift. Yeah, absolutely no way one person can carry dead weight by themselves. Oh, that's really good, yeah. So just bear that in mind. When you are carrying the weight of your ministry area on your shoulders, know that if you are carrying that on your own, and then you're saying yes to other things because you don't know how to say no, it's not a good place to be. And so it's having that courage to having the courage to say no, and it will actually help everyone. It will help the whole church, because what it does, it starts to shift the culture. Yep, so mission is so we keep talking about shifting the culture. Sure, mission is about what we want, what we need to achieve. Culture is how we get there. Mission has been mandated by Jesus, but culture is mandated by us, and so we have power to change that. We have the power to change our culture, the way how we go about things, the way how we do ministry as a as individuals, as a church, and one, when one person has the courage to say no, it starts to shift the organization

Laurie Graham: 46:59

it does. It's a ripple effect. Dee, thank you so much for being here and sharing your heart and your honesty in this conversation, friends, I hope that you heard today. Whatever you heard gives you permission to set down some of that pressure and name, name the lie for what it is. You know that we have to be strong. No, we don't. That we don't have a choice. Yes, we do, and let's find a healthier way forward. And if you've listened to this entire episode and you're like, these people are bonkers, I say no all the time. I have no issue, then I want to raise you up as somebody in the church who could start helping the others around you who struggle with you, like just start noticing when people are a little short, when they're backing off a little instead of saying, Hey, why aren't you showing up? Say hey, how are you really like? Can we have more honest conversations where, as a church, we are seeing this in each other and helping everybody all around us get healthier? Dee, I love what you said. Mission is mandated by Jesus. Culture is decided and determined, really, by us. And don't forget, this is just one of the conversations that is headed toward the lead. Well, conference for women in small churches. This conference is for all women in small churches, ministry, wife, leader, volunteer, just a volunteer. We know how much I hate that somebody who just comes on Christmas and Easter. I don't care. This is for all women, because we have much more in common than we do apart. So the conference is free. It's online. It's happening September 27 you can grab your free ticket@smallchurchsummits.com please share it with the women in your church who need encouragement and support, which honestly is all of us, so they'll thank you later. So All right, thanks for being with us today and until next week, as always, be like you.