194: Pastor. Pastor’s Wife. Volunteer. Leader. Are We Really That Different? | with Kristen Joy Humiston

In small churches, titles can build invisible walls—like pastors’ wives on one side, “regular” women on the other. Or ministry leaders here, and occasional volunteers over there. But those labels don’t tell the whole story, and they often keep us from the deep, honest community we long for. 

In this episode, Kristen Joy Humiston and I share from both sides of the wall, uncovering how much more we have in common than what separates us.

What you’ll hear in this episode:

• How titles like “pastor’s wife” or “leader” can unintentionally create distance
• Why women in small churches often feel divided (and how to bridge the gap)
• Stories from both sides: living with a title and living without one
• How shared struggles (loneliness, pressure, expectations) prove we’re not so different after all
• What it could look like if we ditched the labels and built friendships that actually last

Connect with Kristen Joy Humiston:
www.kristenjoycoaching.com 

Get your FREE ticket for the Lead Well for Women in Small Churches Conference: www.smallchurchsummits.com

Join our free Facebook Community: www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry

Rate, Review, & Follow Laurie on Apple Podcasts

"I love Laurie and The Small Church Ministry Podcast!!" << If that's like you, please consider rating and reviewing my show! This helps Small Church Ministry support and reach more people -- just like you -- in small churches! Click here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars, and select “Write a Review.” Then, let us know what you loved most about this episode!

Also, if you haven’t done so already, follow the podcast. This is the best way to stay updated on the new episodes we release weekly. If you’re not following, there’s a good chance you’ll miss out on future episodes. Follow now!

Get your FREE ticket to the Lead Well for Women in Small Churches Conference! >> www.smallchurchsummits.com/

Transcript

Laurie Graham: 0:01

Hey, welcome to the small church ministry podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I'm your host. Laurie Graham, let's dive in. You. Hey, hey. Welcome back to another episode of the small church ministry podcast. We are in the middle of lead well month around here, and all month long, I've been sitting down with some of our conference speakers to just give a little taste of the vibe of the upcoming lead Well, conference for women in small churches. It's happening on September 27 it's online. It's completely free. So if you haven't grabbed your ticket yet, make sure to do that at small church summits.com. So here's the deal. This event is focused on women, because so many of us really carry small churches on our shoulders, whether we've got a title or not. But if you are a man listening today, don't tune this episode out because you think this is just for women, because this episode we're really talking about a lot of things like pressure and loneliness and connection. And these issues aren't just women issues. These are human issues. We all feel them, maybe in different ways, but this is for all of us. So right now, we're going to be tackling one of those invisible walls that shows up a bit in small churches. And we're going to be talking about titles, titles that we wear, titles that have put upon us, titles we've chosen, whether it's ministry leader, volunteer pastor, pastor's wife. On the surface, these labels, let me take it from two angles. Number one, they can actually help us understand our roles and responsibilities. Labels or titles can help us feel part of something greater than ourselves. They can help us understand certain job duties or expectations, but they can also divide and cause us to feel like we're carrying more weight than others. Maybe we have a higher status, or the flip side, we have a lower worth, or a lower status than others. But underneath what we're going to be talking about in this episode is that we have more in common than we think so. Joining me for this conversation is my friend Kristen Joy humiston. She is a therapist. She's a ministry coach. She has a very familiar voice in our community here at small church, ministry, Kristen and I have lived both of us have lived on different sides of these church titles, or we're going to talk about them a little bit as invisible walls, and today, we're going to just get real about what divides us, what connects us, and what it could look like if we stopped letting titles define our belonging. So Kristen, I'm so glad you're here for this conversation. You and I both know what it's like to sit on different sides of the wall. We've both had seasons with titles and seasons without them, times of leading, times of serving more quietly, and even times of just sitting in the pew. And through it all, we felt the pressure, the expectations, the invisible lines that divide women in the church now, having stepped out of those roles, both of us, I know we've had these discussions, we can see things from a really different, wider angle, and that's why this conversation matters so much. Okay, so let's get into it. One of the things we don't talk about enough in small churches is how much titles shape our experience, Pastor, pastor's wife, ministry leader, volunteer elder. We could go on and on and name all the titles. On paper, they sound like roles, but in reality, they can often feel like invisible walls that keep us from connection. So Kristen, let's do it in your experience, both personally and with women that you coach. How do titles like pastor's wife or leader unintentionally create distance between women?

Kristen Joy Humiston: 3:58

Yeah, I'm so glad that we're addressing this conversation, because I run into it every day, just about whether it's through coaching or whether it's through the therapy work that I do. I'm often sitting with Christian women who have a lot of different connections with Christian spaces, specifically the church and and I've seen this come to play again and again in ways that isolate and keep women from the very relationships that they're seeking so often. Yes? So yeah, I think that we we carry a lot of assumptions with us to start with, and then we project those assumptions and stereotypes, for example, like the idea that you're supposed to be keeping it perfectly together or endlessly available and giving maybe have to have a certain personality type, like be an extrovert versus introvert, and so when you don't fit that mold, then women start saying things like, Well, I'm not the typical pastor's wife, or I'm not the typical. Will fill in the blank. I'm not a I'm not a good Christian woman, and it's as if we think there's really only one version on the flip side, like you're saying sometimes than others. For example, if I'm the pastor's wife, others may keep their distance from me because they assume that I can't relate to her, and I've seen that a lot as a therapist, talking with the women that I work with there, particular to this piece, that you know, they're not good enough for whomever the person in ministry, the other you know, the ministry leader is. Oftentimes, there's just kind of this power differential, or status differential, maybe I should say, between ministry leader, whatever that looks like, and the volunteer or the church attender. So yeah, they create, create walls, even though they're invisible, they're very much there in reality for so many and keep all of us, regardless of what side we're on, of the wall, it keeps us from relationship. It keeps us feeling like we're we're not enough of the thing we have to

Laurie Graham: 6:12

be. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. And the funny thing is, like, like you mentioned on one side, pastors wives are saying, I don't fit the mold. I'm not a typical pastor's wife. And on the other side, everyday women are saying I could never relate to her. And at the same time, both women are feeling very separated, but they don't want to be, yeah, yeah, you know. And we're so convinced that we're different, you know, when we put a label on. But, and I'm so excited about this episode because of this, because we're going to talk about all the things we share, because the loneliness and the pressure and the expectations, like we've got that side of like, that pressure and almost negative feeling, but, and you and I haven't talked about this as much. Our dreams are similar to like, what we desire and what we want and what fills us up. So a lot of times, we're more alike than we even want to admit. But I feel like if we stripped away the titles and just ask women like, what are you actually thinking we'd hear a lot of the same sentences over and over again? For you, Kristen, what sentences do you think we would hear over and over again.

Kristen Joy Humiston: 7:23

The ones that come to mind for me is, first, no one understands me. Another one I've heard a lot is I'm the only one who fill in the blank, right? Yeah, yeah. I have to make sure XYZ is happening if, if they don't do it, who will? And I've heard that from that doesn't matter if that's not necessarily ministry leader, that that's just woman, yeah, those are some of them. Also the question of belonging, like, if I don't do that, then, then I I'm not going to fit in. Or if I don't do that, I'm not going to make them happy, like they won't be happy with me. And so the unspoken is, if I don't do fill in the blank, then they'll leave me or I won't be able to fit in. Yeah, I

Laurie Graham: 8:53

remember when. So just a little personal story. I remember when I was in I think I was in junior high. Could have been young in high school, but I was sitting talking to somebody. Her name was Jenny. I totally remember her last name. Do you ever have those people like you remember who they are, and you haven't seen them for like, 40 years, right? Her name was Jenny, and she was very pretty. She was blonde and she was thin and she had blue eyes. And I was not the popular kid, but I knew her from church, and so, you know, kind of in, if you're in a smaller church, you get thrown in with people you wouldn't be friends with at school, right? Or maybe they wouldn't be friends with me at school. And I remember this conversation just popped to mind that she was saying how she doesn't feel like people like her and she doesn't fit in. And I remember way back then, going, Wait, that's how I feel, like I'm not pretty enough, I'm not good enough. Nobody really likes me. And here was this, you know, drop dead gorgeous girl who was saying the same thing. I was so shocked. And to think that that is how a lot of us feel in church, like we're not part of the cool club or, you know, and to think that the people that maybe we think are in the inner circle have the same feelings that we do like people might not like us. We don't fit in, we don't so what strikes you about these shared struggles? And I'm kind of talking to you as a therapist friend, right? Because, because you see it from all angles, like, what? Where does this lead you, in your mind, in your heart? Yeah, especially in context. Let's just say this, because we're talking in context of the church community, the way that we think God created us to be and feel connected, right?

Kristen Joy Humiston: 10:27

Yeah, well, you use the word connected, and that's what strikes me about all of these is that when our shame and fear. To hold us back in any relationships from sharing appropriately. I think we're going to talk about that in a few minutes, but sharing appropriately, then we stay disconnected and in the church. Isn't that that's what Satan wants for us, isn't that just what the enemy wants and intended from all along? I'm thinking way back in Genesis three, the result of the lies and Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit, was that disconnection? Yeah. So I just, it's interesting, and I, I think this is the thing that I always walk away. A lot of weeks, a lot of days, a lot of different sessions, kind of scratching my head out, wondering, how can I can't convince someone of their sameness with another individual in their life that they feel disconnected from. That's one of my questions, that my conundrums, I guess, that I always walk away with thinking how, how can I say something or do something or in order to shift the view enough? Because for me, personally, what has shifted my view is now sitting with hundreds of people and hearing all of the same thoughts I thought in a in a different way, just like your story with Jenny. I think that was her name that you know, you thought, Man, how could she think that? And I have thought that again and again and again, like, Oh, I I didn't realize others thought this too. And so it has been from me hearing others stories that has, little by little by little, disconfirmed some of my own negative thinking beliefs that were Yeah, you know, our therapist you term cognitive distortions. It just wasn't accurate, thinking it was wrong. Thinking, yeah, yeah, and yeah. So it's kind of a question I walk away a lot of times with, how can we really shift this for women so they can cast it and connect?

Laurie Graham: 12:50

And the goal is connection and feeling loved and being loved and loving better, right? Like, that's what, what we're talking about like not just tearing down walls for the sake of doing it, but I believe God had something better in mind than many of us are living, as far as connection goes and and also, if you're listening right now, and you're a pastor's wife, if you're a pastor, if you're a ministry leader, it's not just this. Isn't just a staff problem where you feel disconnected with others and volunteers. It's not just a volunteer problem, it's just a human problem, like we let titles become walls and and there's a reason we have titles, there's a reason we have boundaries, there's a reason we stereotype. I'm not sure if we're going to talk about that more later or not, but it can also hurt, really hurt, the church, you know, and when we name the shared stuff that we have all together. Something different happens, something shifts. We start seeing what we have in common. We have more empathy, we and we have connection, because we know what we're sharing, and suddenly we're not so alone anymore. You know, we're going to talk about some real things that happen, like Kristen already mentioned, with vulnerability and risk and confidentiality, like there's real things in our lives, right? It's not like we just need to just, you know, just have no walls up with each other. Like, that's not even necessarily healthy, or maybe boundaries is a better term. But when it comes to being misunderstood, I think we forget how many of us have stood on both sides of the fence, like, sometimes the homeschool mama thing comes up, right? Well, homeschool mamas don't always homeschool the whole time. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes they're homeschool, sometimes they're not. When we think about people have been in ministry long term, you know, the the women who like, have the the almost like the old guard, you know, like, sometimes we feel like, well, they weren't always the old guard. They were already also new at one point, right? So some people listening know what it's like to be a pastor's wife, and other people know what it's like to be just a volunteer. I say just in quotation marks, with no title at all, and I have lived all those sides, not just two sides, but I was when I was first in church ministry, I was single, I was on staff for many years at a church without a spouse, and I was a staff member. Then later, I was a pastor's wife, and now in my current church, honestly, I am the just a volunteer. Kristen. You and I have both walked through some pretty unexpected role loss in different ways. Your pastor husband went through a forced termination. I know that is part of your story and and part of your your ministry, even as you do coaching and and counseling as well. My own story includes walking through a divorce from a pastor right now, neither of us plan those endings, and I don't share that as a headline of my life, but just to say, if you're listening and you've gone through things similar to this, you're also not alone. There's. A bigger point here, too, identity loss isn't just a pastor's wife thing or a ministry leader thing. We have all felt this in different way, and I think especially as women, like a women's ministry leader was leading women's ministry for a long time, and then steps out of that leadership role that is hard. You don't always know where you fit. You know, maybe some of you used to worship lead, and now you're not a worship leader, and you're sitting with someone else leading worship. That is, it's it's hard that identity loss, or moms, when your kids grow up like we've got the empty nest that is a role loss, a volunteer who poured it into a certain ministry area, then somebody new comes in, completely changes it, and you're like the one on the sideline that stings teachers when they retire or step out of a Sunday School role, even after they've done it, there is a big ache, more than an ache, I would say, in losing a role, because oftentimes it's connected with our identity. Kristen, can you talk about this? Yeah, role, loss, maybe how it's linked to identity, maybe not. What happens when you walk alongside women with these kind of experiences,

Kristen Joy Humiston: 16:48

yeah, when a woman has lost a role, and I want to say when a human has lost a role, because this happened for happens with men too. There is absolutely an identity crisis and a loss of self, a great disorientation coming from that sense of, Well, what do I do now? Or who am I now? Loss of purpose, a loss of worth, because we do have meaning that is rightly tied to some of the things that we do. There's meaning there, and so we lose that, that sense of meaning and belonging. We can lose a community you mentioned the homeschool mom thing. I think one of my biggest personal losses in our forced termination was that I was not able. I went into a severe depression season, and so I was not able to continue homeschooling my children, and that, for me, was maybe a greater loss than the pastor's wife title, although that has also been a very large loss and process of walking through so it can lead a woman to feel invisible, disposable, and man, that's just, it's it loses the essence of who we are, right? And then ripples into other relationships and other areas, and obviously, is tied with some of the emotional upheaval. There's a lot of grief in there, yeah. And I think when I listen to women share about this, one of the things that stands out to me is what we call ambiguous grief. This is grief that's not recognized by others or by like our community or cultural context. So we lose a role. I just heard about a church secretary who had been the church secretary for, you know, 20 years, and is really struggling with this loss. Nobody's showing up to bring her a casserole. This is a loss that doesn't have, I guess, like ceremony or there's no closure to it, and again, not recognized by others. So what do we do then? And it's kind of ongoing and and it can lead to thoughts of why just must be crazy. I should just get over this. Then there's all the relational shifts, the way that losing that role impacts other relationships. And, yeah, just even our schedule. I think the last thing, especially for Christian women tied with the church, the involvement with the church, is a spiritual disorientation that often shifts when there's been a shift in a longer standing role within the church context, what she believed about God, or how she connected with God, yeah, and so that, in and of itself, feels really disorienting. It can feel wrong, or God feels extra distant, I guess during those seasons as well. Yeah, just because of that, the way that we've known God and have connected with him changes.

Laurie Graham: 19:59

I so good, like, I don't even know you're gonna go there, and that's so good. I know we started talking about, like, titles and roles, like, this is what our podcast episode is about. But as you were talking, a few other things popped to mind that that, like, put us on different sides in churches, or like we feel so different from somebody, and one of them, I just have to mention for my friends who have, like, chronic health issues like I I have, like, literally, three people popping to mind right now who feel so disoriented and alone and misunderstood in church ministry, and they used to be the powerhouse women, quite honestly. Honestly, that's probably was a contributing factor to how they have ended up now with chronic illness, but that is really isolating, like when they can't show up all the time, and just the things that we think about them, or the issue that they're struggling with, a health issue, mental health issues, the struggles that we have as women, as humans, that create the separation when we can say, Hey, how are we more the same? Can we remember when we have not been able when you know, when something shifted with us? Wow, I didn't mean to go there, but when you were talking, I was like, I had literally, people pop into mind going, how isolated they must feel. So as we're talking here, and wherever you're listening from, like, let's just think of, you know, women or humans, if you're if, if you, you know, if you're not in the women's space. I don't want to leave you out, but I just think as women, we we tend to separate when we don't need to or feel disconnected, when we could be intentionally thinking about how we could be connected. What could draw us closer instead of pushing people farther away?

Kristen Joy Humiston: 21:52

Laurie, you bring up a really excellent point. It's one of the things I see most common in my role as a therapist, women who have this connection with a chronic illness or a reason that she cannot, in the her current season, be connected with her church body. And I recently had someone say something so powerful to me with that, along the lines of, you know, everybody judges the one who can't come to church or isn't showing up there, specifically in the women's sphere, and has all these negative things to say about that. The the words that were said to me were along the lines of the great burden, like those that are judging others, don't understand the great burden that it is to not be able to connect with the body of Christ, with a church body, due to these chronic illness, or maybe there's something going on with the child that you know you need to be around that kind of A thing. So I think it's really, really important that because a lot of women are dealing with this very issue. So I appreciate you bringing it up. Yeah, yeah, okay, let's get

Laurie Graham: 23:09

back to roles and walls, walls and rolls. So one thing, just before we get into this, and I guess this is where we're kind of going next, is we're not saying tear down every wall or every boundary or anything like we know Kristen and I, we've had extensive conversations on this. Having friendships is a risk. Building connections is a risk. There is vulnerability. Like neither, neither one of us talks about throwing your boundaries out the window and trying to be besties with everybody like we're not saying that connection is important no matter what level we connect at, but I think diving into or grabbing onto or embracing the connection we can have is so important. So let's talk about vulnerability now, one of the biggest walls that many women have when we talk about friendship, and I've heard this a lot, especially in the pastor's wives circles, is that, you know, pastor's wives shouldn't have close friends in church. Or I talked to somebody the other day that said, Oh, I'm not friends with people I work with. And I was like, what? Like, why would you be friends with people you work with? So it's not just in the church circle, but there's a risk that we take in sharing our story, whether our spouse is a pastor or not, but because we have so many spouses in our community, you know, here's the thing, though, this pressure is not unique to pastors. Wives. None of us live in a vacuum. We're all connected, whether it's to a spouse or to kids or to parents or to family, extended family. Some of us are very close to people who are in the spotlight, you know, doctors, counselors, community leaders, yes, pastors as well. Others of us are close to people who are struggling with addiction or mental health or broken relationships and estrangement. Like it's not like we all can just throw all the boundaries off and just, you know, share all of our deepest secrets to everybody on the planet, right? Like we're not just carrying our own story. We because we're not. We don't live in a vacuum. We carry other people's stories, you know. And I think it's not just, I think it's responsible to to consider confidentiality and and where we share and who he shares with, who we share with. But caution doesn't need to turn into walls, and I think I just want to talk about that for a little bit, because real friendship doesn't require us to spill every detail of our lives, whether you're married to a pastor, a church leader or or someone else or not married to. All right, we don't have to spill every detail of our lives but, but I do think connection does need a level of honesty and authenticity and presence and trust. Kristen, when you think about friendship specifically in the church, how do we strike a balance between being authentic and protecting stories that we carry when that's needed, like, where does that? Where does that fall, no matter what our title, whether we have titles or no titles,

Kristen Joy Humiston: 26:09

I think the an important part here is to bring in. A lot of people use the word authentic. I want to be authentic. I want to be genuine. I want to be real. And that is wonderful. I am very much for that. Knowing that to be authentic doesn't mean I give full exposure or full transparency. There is an appropriate context.

Laurie Graham: 26:37

So that picture just went through my head. What's the children's book, The Emperor without clothes, or something like that? Image just went through my head. When you said it doesn't mean full exposure,

Kristen Joy Humiston: 26:47

well, and I say that word for that reason, right? Yeah, it's not appropriate for let me give an example. It's not appropriate. You go to your doctor and you're at an appointment, and your doctor starts sharing about his marriage, about problems with his hair, like that would be in appropriate context. However, if he's sharing, yeah, you know, it does get hard. You're you're showing up, you're doing an annual wealth check, whatever, and you're talking about some anxiety you're experiencing. He can relate, because he can, or she can experience anxiety too, and might be in similar seasons of life, but he's not going to share the details. She's not going to get into the problems she's having with her daughter, that would be inappropriate. And so we can be authentic without having to give everybody the behind the scenes details. And that doesn't mean that you're not a good friend, because then that's the other part we tie with it. Well, I'm not a good friend, if they don't know this is going on with me. What? There's different types of friendships. There's different seasons of friendships and levels of friendships, even within the between the same two people you know, even you and I, have gone through seasons where we're a little quieter with each other, because life is getting crazy, and yet, then there's other times where we're connected more often. And so I just think that we need to be wise there and also understand that there's an appropriate context. Also we it's right and good to protect some of those tender areas until we know if someone really is trustworthy, it's okay to have someone earn the right to know about those tender areas. And so

Laurie Graham: 28:38

I love that you just called them tender areas. Because I think sometimes we feel like we're like, keeping secrets from people, or like, oh my gosh, I can't believe they don't know this about me. I need to, you know what I mean. And I think it's I love that you just talked about protecting tender areas. Yeah. What do we do, though, when I think a lot of women don't feel like anybody's safe, right? Like, where do I find that safe person? You know, I'll talk about you sometimes Kristen or Charmaine or my friend Becky and and sometimes people feel like, well, that's nice that you have a safe person to talk to. What just go with that, because I'm not even sure what to ask. Because part of because part of it, I think, is us like us, feeling like nobody's safe, and we have so many walls up. And part of it, I think, is literally finding who is safe, right?

Kristen Joy Humiston: 29:28

Yeah, I think that's a cue in turn, in in terms of looking at ourselves, to watch for our own, uh, underlying currents. Am I avoiding talking with somebody or believing there's no safe place for me because I'm afraid? Is fear underneath there? And we need to pay attention to that and discern why and so in both sides of that. Because sometimes ignoring that fear and sharing anyway. I've heard that a lot, that leads to a lot of pain, but also assuming that no one is trustworthy, that's hyper vigilance. When we see that in the therapy room, we call that avoidance hyper vigilance. We've got some deep wounds there, whether that's trauma or not that need addressing. And so what is coming up within you, related to relationships says far more about you and your experience than it says about anybody around you.

Laurie Graham: 30:34

Yeah, yeah. I think also is. You're talking, I'm like, and I think we also, I think there's a there's a place for grace to grow as well for us and the people that we know. Like, when somebody messes up once, it's if you've been hurt before, it's easy to say, oh, that person's not trustworthy. It's harder to say, hey, when you said that, that kind of hurt my feelings a little bit. And like and and you and I have had moments like that Kristen, like you and I have, right and I'm telling you, like every one of my, you know, closer friends, we've had those discussions where I could have cut them off, like, literally, they hurt my feelings, they said something that, or they, you know, had this piece of information. I'm thinking of somebody very specific right now, and I'm so glad, because I almost did. I almost I almost shut down. I could feel myself shutting down, like I'm done with this person, like, that's how I felt, and I had to process through my emotions and my feelings, and I'm so glad I didn't do that. Like, this is a person I deeply trust now, right? And so I think sometimes there's that grace, a growth. There's like an edge of, hey, let's try this. Let you that kind of hurt. Can we try this a little better, and not that we end up trusting everyone, right? That's not wise or safe, yeah. Like I, you and I both talk about, like we have a big responsibility take care of this person that God created us to be. That's a big responsibility. Like, I need to take care of myself, right? And God calls me to connection. How are both possible? Yeah, you got anything to add to that one? I know we're we're almost out of time. I hate this.

Kristen Joy Humiston: 32:12

It's, it is making me think about the practical, because we know that in a so safe enough relationship.

Laurie Graham: 32:22

Ooh, I love that safe enough let's just say that safe enough

Kristen Joy Humiston: 32:26

enough relationship, then the work that continues to connect us and draw us closer is the repair. It is coming back together when there has been a division and when there has been a wounding, and someone is brave enough, has enough courage to go back and say, Hey, can can we look at this? Because this really hurt when you said, X, was this your intention? And sometimes it's not a lot of times, it's not a lot of times it's what we took away from what they said. But in doing that, in coming back and making those repairs, or attempting to, yeah, that is what draws us closer into connection and and develops that is actually part of developing trust and deepening trust, so without, without the rupture, in a sense, we don't have opportunity to repair, yeah, when there has been rupture again in a safe enough relationship, coming back together and actually being willing to sit through that uncomfortability of doing the repair work is what builds deeper trust.

Laurie Graham: 33:46

Yeah, hey, you all. We have all been hurt before by people, and I think that's part of the reason these walls also pop up, right? Because they're very self protective and things like that. And we've named some struggles, some losses, some risks. Chris and I have talked about how we're much more alike than we are different. We could probably talk about this for many hours. We definitely want to leave you with some hope. And I had some song lyrics that just popped in my head right now, and I just pulled them up really quick. But there's a song by Holland called again, and it's the shortest little song ever on the face of the planet, but it has meant a lot to me. And I'm going to read these, and then Kristen, I'm going to ask you to talk about, like, what can happen, what can change in the church when we kind of get past these titles and and go toward, you know, real relationships, where they fit and where they make sense, but also just this overarching of we're more alike than we are different. But I'm just going to read these lyrics to you because I know there's a lot of hurt wrapped up in here that we do feel alone and that we pull back from others. Oftentimes, the song says this. It says you can pick your heart up off the floor. I know your arms are getting sore from all the times, all the times you've had to do this before. But what if the next thing is the best thing? What if the next thing is the best thing? What if the next thing gives you the space to open up your wings and soar? I want you to breathe in my air. That's God's air, the Holy Spirit, I want you to breathe in my air and tell me that you're scared. I know that in the past, this hasn't gone to plan, but I'm asking you to open up your hands again. I think sometimes we are so tired of trying for relationships that we just. Up trying. And by the way, if you're in a new church, or you're welcoming a woman into your church that is new to your church, that also is a huge loss, a huge role, a huge risk. And if as women and men who are listening in, but if as women, since we're talking about women this this month, especially with this upcoming lead well conference, if we could open up our hands again, be willing to take a risk with rationality, but know that God calls us to more right, like, what could really happen? What could change in our churches?

Kristen Joy Humiston: 36:19

Laurie as you are talking and sharing that song, I'm thinking about advice that I just read, one of my friend gives her children before they start school, like the day before they start school, these children, and they have hit many of my children's ages, so I know them fairly well. Interact with them a lot. Are regularly called the most kind to anyone welcoming, and her words that she shared was before starting school. Each year, she sits down talks with them about what their hopes and etc are for the year, and then says, okay, and remember, what are you going to do tomorrow? And the response that they now have been trained to give her, and I've seen them do it again and again, is find the one, find the one who's new, find the one who's sitting on the outside, and repeatedly, I know that these kids live that out, because I've heard stories from my own kids talking about it. And so I think about that, that place of loneliness when you're the only one walking into that new setting. You know, we talk about, how do we actually move towards connection and find those things that we are the same on. We can all think of a time when we were the new Yeah, and and moving past that awkwardness, that feeling of uncomfortability, the insecurity of, Oh, what if she doesn't like me, or what if I say something stupid, and just going and sitting with the one,

Laurie Graham: 37:59

yeah, wow, how that's really powerful. You know, Kristen, I don't want to end the episode without you talking about permission, because I love it when you talk about give yourself permission, because so oftentimes we shut down, right? And we, I don't know, I can get really hard on myself and you know, but you talk about, like, giving yourself permission to be fully human and some other things. Could you drop that in before we leave here?

Kristen Joy Humiston: 38:27

Yeah, this was pivotal in my healing and in the way I viewed myself and the way I viewed others. And I still remember the day that that this hit me so powerfully that I really I was human, and with that comes needs and joys and anger and all the things and so when I give myself to be fully human, to have bad days and good days, good moments In the day and bad moments in the same day, maybe an hour later, that when I do that for myself and begin living out of that place of permission with grace, then I'm able to offer that to others. Yeah, when we can offer that to others, that starts impacting our sphere. In the church, our relationships just the two or three that are close, and then it spreads, because they begin acting out of permission to be human, and show up good days and bad days, and we then can be okay with coming in to even repair going, you know what? It's okay if, if they don't take this apology, that's all right. I'm still okay. I'm still valued, I'm still loved by God.

Laurie Graham: 39:49

Yeah, yeah. You know, we are just so unique. And I really believe when one person gets in touch with there. I don't know how to say this, like when, when we're healthier, right? When we're healthier, when we're just hands down, healthier. We change our church cultures, like we think we have to have the title to change this, to do that, to move toward that. And I really believe as each of us, as individual, gets gets healthier, learn to how to build trusted relationships, you know, starts getting rid of the walls that divide us in so many ways. The church body starts to thrive in really different ways too. You know, as we've talked about titles in this podcast, that's how we started pastor. Pastors. Why? Wife, ministry leader elder. You can throw in any kind of titles you want, First Lady, for those of you in denominations where they call the pastor's wife the First Lady, right? These titles can start to build up these invisible walls between us where just a volunteer just doesn't feel like they're part of the club, or maybe a person with the title feels they have more value, and a person without a title doesn't you know if you're listening now and you've ever felt the weight of a title, because titles aren't all that. There's a lot that comes with the title. If you have ever felt the weight of the title, or that ache of not having a title, wishing you had one, I really hope that today you're just reminded that you're not alone, like you're not alone. We are so much more the same, Pastor, pastor's wife, ministry leader, volunteer, those are just words. That's not our worth. It's not who we are. Titles come and go. Kristen and I are great examples of that. Titles come and go. They're not the measure of our belonging. They're not who we are, because underneath it all, we are human beings who want the same thing. We want to be seen, we want to feel safe. We want to be loved for who we are, the good, bad and the ugly, fully human. We want to find friendships that last and connection. It's one of the reasons we're hosting this lead well conference for women in small churches on September 27 it's a space for every woman in the church. Title or No, title like, let's come together. Let's drop the titles. Let's be human together. One of our biggest hopes for this event is to help women like get across those invisible walls that divide us because we don't have to stay disconnected or lonely or feeling misunderstood. We don't have to we really do have each other. We just have to learn how to do this together. We have to kind of come in contact with what we have in common, and that it's more than we realize. If you have not grabbed a free ticket to this conference yet, go grab it@smallchurchsummits.com Kristen, before we close out, anything else you wanted to say, anything on your heart, anything you want to close with, anything you want to throw out to the masses, I

Kristen Joy Humiston: 42:54

just want to thank you for having this conversation. It has been one that's been on my heart and mind since a very particular day about eight weeks after our force termination. And I think it's a really important conversation to start and that we continue having it.

Laurie Graham: 43:14

Yeah, yeah. So grab your free ticket to the conference, y'all, if you're listening to this live, if you're not, we have, usually have quarterly conferences, so you can always go to small church summits.com. To see which one's coming up next. But Kristen, thanks for being here with us. Thanks for also being part of a little preview for the conference. I know you'll be speaking. We're so excited about it and what's all coming. So whatever you all are about like today, the rest of your day, the rest of your week, no matter what time you're listening to this, no matter what day of the week it is, we are with you. You're not alone, you're not standing alone, you're not serving alone. We're with you. So until next week, keep on being a light you you