201: Do No Harm - What Churches Can Do to Support Real Healing | with Licensed Therapist Kati Quigley

In small churches, we’re often the first people others turn to when life falls apart - whether we’re on staff, leading worship, teaching kids, or serving on the elder board. 

In Part Two of the Do No Harm series, Laurie and licensed therapist Kati Quigley talk about what churches can do to help create more emotionally healthy spaces. 

This isn’t about becoming counselors, giving advice, or providing solutions. It’s about practicing empathy, allowing people to lean into their own painful places, listening well, and partnering with counselors and professionals we trust.

In this episode:

• How small churches can normalize therapy and mental health support
• Why awareness of reactions matters (our own and others) in ministry meetings
• How to listen better and create safer, judgment-free spaces
• The value of clear boundaries and trusted referral lists

Connect with Kati Quigley:
katiquigleycounseling.org

Join our free Facebook Community: www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry

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Transcript

Laurie Graham  0:01 
Hey, welcome to the Small Church Ministry Podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy, and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I'm your host, Laurie Graham. Let's dive in.

Laurie Graham  0:23 
Hello and welcome back to the Small Church Ministry Podcast. We are in the middle of a series called Do No Harm. This is a little off the beaten path for what we typically talk about here at Small Church Ministry, and I want to pause for a second and just talk about why this conversation matters so much, especially for small churches.

Laurie Graham  0:41 
Now, a lot of us hear the word counseling, and we think that's not part of our ministry, that's for professionals, that's for deeper things than we deal with here in our churches. But the truth is that small churches, we really are often the ones people go to first with grief, with anxiety, with marriage struggles, with trauma, with deep emotional pain, with needs.

Laurie Graham  1:05 
So when we're thinking about this broader term of counseling, we're going to talk about why we don't believe that should be happening in most churches. However, we need to be equipped with what it's for, what it means, and how it can help us all. We often are called to sit with people in their hardest moments, understanding our limitations and also what we have to offer that is so powerful.

Laurie Graham  1:33 
Now this topic is true and needed, whether you are a volunteer in women's ministry, whether you teach kids on Sunday morning, lead worship, serve on the elder board, or if you're the pastor, because every single one of us shapes church culture by how we respond to people, whether they are in pain, in need, or just walking in the door to enjoy a fellowship event. But when we think about people who are in pain, people who have struggles, which really is all of us: How do we respond to those struggles, to the pain? Are we responding with curiosity? Are we responding with correction? Are we responding with patience or pressure?

Laurie Graham  2:14 
Every single one of us can make a difference by learning what's ours to carry and what's not, and what is a helpful response and what is not. It's not just about our intention. And so as Katie Quigley and I are talking throughout this series, I personally think this is a really weighty topic. We need to understand it, because there's a lot of responsibility here, because we unintentionally do a good deal of harm when we don't understand deeper things about us as humans, about how we grow up, about trauma that we carry, about when we could be unintentionally doing harm instead of doing good.

Laurie Graham  3:02 
So this series is not at all about turning pastors or volunteers into therapists. It's also not giving away the good that God has called us to do. But it's about recognizing where our role starts and ends, where does wisdom begin. We're talking about protecting people's safety, honoring our own limits, and knowing when a referral is the most spiritual thing we can offer. It's also about noticing when we ourselves need help, how to find it, or how to help someone else find it, without shame, without fear.

Laurie Graham  3:36 
In this particular episode, we're going to talk about what we can do in our churches. A few things we're going to talk about are just normalizing the words therapy and counseling, taking it out of this, you know, very big, traumatic space, and really looking at the good it can do for all of us, recognizing that mental and emotional health support is helpful for everyone. We're going to talk about becoming more aware of our reactions, and even noticing others' reactions when we're unusually defensive or emotional or tense in ministry meetings, or realizing that there might be something deeper at play, or even things that we're carrying from other situations or even from childhood. We're going to talk about how to learn to listen better, about empathy, about withholding judgment, and creating safer spaces, and pairing all of this with healthy boundaries. And we're also going to talk in this episode about starting to build referral lists of trusted local therapists and other resources so that we can be ready before somebody's in crisis.

Laurie Graham  4:45 
So what you're not hearing throughout this series is a call for us to give better advice, to counsel someone, or to lead people to specific solutions. This is the line that we're talking about when churches, even with the best intentions, sometimes step across the edge of do no harm. The reality is we don't know the depths of what others are carrying. And the most powerful, caring thing that we can do, the truly Christ-like best, is to be healthier ourselves, to recognize where more may be going on, to create safer spaces, and to have a trusted referral list ready when somebody needs something more than we have to get.

Laurie Graham  5:32 
So let's jump into our conversation already in process with Kati Quigley.

Laurie Graham  5:39 
So Kati and I are in the middle of a series about doing no harm when the church tries to heal what it doesn't understand. We're really delving into the area of counseling, advice giving in churches, where the church has done some harm, some differences between biblical counseling, when we're in over our heads, [and] even the use of the word counseling in churches. So if you want to go back—if you haven't heard the last episode—we started with some harm that the church has done and is continuing to do in different ways, not out of intention, this unintentional, like, we don't understand, right, and how maybe we can do better.

Laurie Graham  6:19 
So today, we're diving into a little more of a positive vibe of not just what we've done wrong, but what can the church do in our lack of training, but also where we can equip ourselves to do better when we're talking about emotional pain or trauma or just regular life relational issues, where we're seeing things that are unhealthy, right? Like, what can we actually do? We're going to talk about normalizing counseling, the both/and of counseling and loving Jesus. We're going to talk about emotional health, about safe spaces, about when to recognize when we need a little more, what we can do to equip each other in our churches, and we might even have time to get into a little bit of referral and how to recognize that.

Laurie Graham  6:42 
But Kati, before we do that, let's talk about your initials. I know you talked a little bit in the last episode about who you were in your training, but you want to talk a little bit about how you're equipped to go here into these spaces, and what all those initials behind your name look like, as well as the additional training you've done. All counselors are not the same. There's a bunch of counselors who've never actually studied the brain, which I think is tragic. I think the way that God created us—brain, body, you know, all the neurobiological stuff—I don't even know if I'm saying the right names, but how God created us is intricate. It is fearfully and wonderfully made, and understanding those pieces and parts actually leads us to more health, not ignoring them. So Kati, talk to us about who you are, your initials, and why you're amazing, and why we love you so much.

Kati Quigley  7:57 
I have a Master's in Clinical Mental Health Counseling. I am a fully licensed Licensed Mental Health Counselor (LMHC) in the state of Indiana. I am EMDR certified, and I specialize in trauma, so all my continuing education courses are revolved around trauma education and EMDR. I've also done some trainings on incorporating IFS (Internal Family Systems) parts work and also the nervous system somatic approaches. The past two years, I've been into both those camps, incorporating that into the EMDR. So, yeah, but [I'm] very passionate about trauma work, [and] work primarily with women as well.

Laurie Graham  8:43 
Okay, I love this, and I love all the initials you're dropping. And for those of you who are like, furiously writing them down, what do all these things mean? We're going to talk about that a little bit in possibly next week or the week after that. Not sure how long this particular section is going to take, but when—when we talk about, how do you find somebody to help you, because, as Katie's mentioning all these things, I knew most of them, by the way, and because I've been with counselors who practice a lot of these things, but I think it's really good to know every counselor is not the same. The modalities they use—some things you'll resonate with, some things you won't. Some of you have tried EMDR, and you're like, "Yeah, that doesn't work for me." And Internal Family Systems is a whole other ballgame, and there's a lot of versions of it. I think one is called "HeartSync," and there's story work, and there's so many different things that counselors can learn.

Laurie Graham  9:30 
And there's a little fear for some people who are Christians of secular counseling; "we don't want to go there." But can I just say, Katie loves Jesus! Katie, would you say that? Do you believe in the Bible? Do you believe in God? You believe he can do great things? Talk to us a little bit about that and how your faith and your training and counseling goes together.

Kati Quigley  9:49 
Yes, 100% I love Jesus. Everything I do is filtered through a biblical lens, so I'm not doing anything that would go against anything biblically. For me, I don't consider myself like a biblical counselor, because I meet the client where they are, and I don't even talk about spiritual stuff if they don't want to talk about spiritual stuff, but everything I do is filtered through the lens of biblical accuracy.

Laurie Graham  10:16 
And do you think studying counseling has weakened your faith or drawn you away from God?

Kati Quigley  10:22 
Not at all. [It has] strengthened my faith. I'm amazed anytime I learn anything about the brain or nervous system, I'm like, "Dude, our God is so cool. The things you've created in us, it's amazing."

Laurie Graham  10:36 
Yeah, I love that, but I do. I get pushback when I talk about counselors to many people, which is shocking to me in today's day and age, and how much we know about how God has created us, fearfully and wonderfully made and intricate. And for me, the more I understand that, the stronger my faith gets. And so we kind of want to demystify a little bit. We think this is one of the things that kind of damages people in churches, is when we make counseling like this thing that should be feared, or is only for people who are really broken or people who are really struggling with, like, major trauma and things like that. Like, we kind of want to talk about that a little bit, to kind of demystify this and talk about how it's really a great integration in our faith.

Laurie Graham  11:21 
But so I know Kati, you grew up in a church where you said your dad, basically, from the pulpit, will tell people to go to counseling, right? Or go to therapy, or it's a good thing. Can you talk a little bit about that with your relationship with your dad, who's a pastor, you pursuing a counseling degree, and how that shows up in your church?

Kati Quigley  11:36 
Yeah, he is very supportive of counseling. I don't know if it's just because his daughter is a counselor, and I would stand up in the middle of a sermon and be like, "Um, excuse me," if he spoke against it. But yeah, he's very supportive, very supportive of medication as well, which I think sometimes the church has not been supportive of those things, and so it's been nice to have that as my background. I know that's not the case for everybody.

Laurie Graham  12:01 
Yeah, yeah. I think it's really dangerous when counseling is just seen as like, "Oh my gosh. That's really just for people who are way out." I shared this with you earlier, Katie, but I know many pastors and pastor spouses who will say, when we get into situations talking about counseling, "Oh, we fully support counseling. We tell people to go to counseling all the time, but we don't need it." Like, "I don't need it." And I'm looking at this person going, "Oh, you so..."

Kati Quigley  12:29 
If you're like, "I don't need it," there's probably a high likelihood you do need it.

Laurie Graham  12:35 
Yeah, I think one of the best things I've done with my kids is normalized counseling. We all go to counseling. We tell people to go to counseling, and not that every therapist is worth recommending. We will talk about that in an upcoming episode, because there are definitely things to look for and things to stay away from, but normalizing therapy, saying that counseling is okay, I think, builds maybe trust and kind of speaks against the shame of going to counseling. Have you seen some shame built into churches, situations, maybe even groups where counseling is like for those people?

Kati Quigley  13:12 
I haven't personally, mostly because anytime I hear even a hint of that, I speak against that. So I think most people probably just know kind of where I stand in that. And I'm usually around circles where counseling is, you know, common.

Laurie Graham  13:27 
Okay, Kati, so let's start with this. We're in a church. We're saying, "What can we do?" Like we've done some damage in the past. So what are some like signs that we need counseling ourselves, or—I'm just going to say people in our churches, but we don't want to point fingers at, "Hey, you need counseling"—but let's just talk about people who are listening right now. How do we know when we need more help than we're giving or getting in a church setting?

Kati Quigley  13:54 
I think that's a great question. I think looking for how much you're able to tolerate. So if the struggles you're going through send you to a place that you can't quickly redirect, they're impacting your life you're in. They're impacting the home. They're impacting work. They're causing high levels of anxiety, high levels of stress, putting you into shame spirals or depression—things like that that are things you can't easily or quickly redirect and move on from. I would say, are things to be looking for, of like, "Oh, maybe I need a little extra care in this area."

Laurie Graham  14:36 
Awesome. Okay, so if you need extra care, we're going to talk about that also in a few episodes down the road, of how to find the help you need and what kind of help you need. And I shouldn't even say if, I should say when. When we need extra care, where do we go to get that?

Laurie Graham  14:51 
Okay, so now let's talk about what the church can do if it's not going to happen outside the church, you know, in counseling, which I think is so good for many—most of us at any given point in time—to have some outside support, as we've talked about in other ways. Let's talk about what we can introduce into our church, into our churches, into our Bible studies, into our, I don't know, even council meetings when things are out of hand. What are some of those helpful healing tools that we can start integrating?

Laurie Graham  15:22 
And I'll just give you a couple examples, Katie. So for me, when I have learned to just identify my own, when I'm feeling activated or triggered, like, I'll go into a church meeting, I feel totally fine, and then all of a sudden I'm like, "I am not okay. What just happened to me right now?" And I will have conversations with people now in churches, like, "Hey, if this happens to [you] in a meeting," or, you know, giving a heads up, "This might be a little bit of a sticky meeting. This might get a little heated." Or, you know, what are some of those, I don't know, counseling hacks, tips and tricks you can give us to just create healthier spaces in our churches now, which I think starts with identifying and then also leads into some tools?

Kati Quigley  15:46 
Right. Yeah, I think you just introduced that perfectly with what you're doing. So each of us are going to be walking into this meeting with our own narratives of how we view the world and how we view ourselves. And a lot of times our past will impact that. Our past impacts the way we show up, right? And so we may have different themes that we're holding on to that if that theme—let's say, for example, "I'm not good enough"—maybe you struggle with self-worth. If someone makes a comment in this meeting that pokes at that, that's going to trigger you, that's going to activate you, and maybe you go into shutdown, or maybe you go into anger. And I think having to start from first looking internal: "Okay, what is it that impacts me? What is it that triggers me?" And then also recognizing, "Okay, someone else is having a reaction that seems bigger than what I feel like it should be. So there's something going on within them." And getting compassionately curious with them, where they feel safe, to be able to open up of, "Okay, what's going on inside? What's going on for them?" Right? And just creating these safe spaces with awareness of both parts, I think, is important.

Laurie Graham  17:12 
Oh, I think that's huge. And it goes back—I don't know if you said it earlier in this episode, or if it was in [the] last episode. You said one of the most important things we can do, impactful things we can do in churches, is listen more than we give advice. So even as we're talking about some of this, it's not about fixing it; it's about getting curious and creating some safe spaces.

Laurie Graham  17:34 
So how do we create safer spaces? Because I'm going to say right now, I think for many, many people, church is not the safe space. Church is not the safest space to say when we're doubting, when we're having a hard time. We want everybody to feel comfortable. We want to feel comfortable. We want to hang on to our faith, you know, that little bit of toxic positivity, faith stuff. How do we—what does emotional safety look like as a volunteer or even in a prayer meeting? How do we do this?

Kati Quigley  18:03 
Yeah, I think the first thing would be leaning into the person who's coming to you with discomfort. A lot of times, our brains naturally want to go into this place of, "Okay, let's fix, let's fix." And stopping ourselves for a second, even fighting our own instincts, to lean into it: "Oh, you're really struggling. Tell me more about that." And just sitting with them, giving them space to explore this from a very compassionate, curious place, to allow that space to expand of safety and of trust.

Laurie Graham  18:40 
And you can say, "I think I see that you're really struggling. Tell me more about that," without having initials at the back of your name.

Kati Quigley  18:49 
Absolutely, yes. You can be empathetic, you can be compassionate, you can be curious. You can be a calm, stable place for this person, yeah, with zero training and expertise. And that's a lot of times what people need, yeah. And so for us to be able to give that to them is such a gift.

Laurie Graham  19:10 
It is a gift, and it's not an easy gift to give, because we want to feel comfortable. We want to fix things. I think sometimes we go into sharing our own experiences, right, instead of listening and really giving empathy to people. What has been like, one of your favorite, I don't know, examples or experiences you've had where you saw a safe space created in a church, where you witnessed it, or maybe a leader modeled that for you, Kati?

Kati Quigley  19:40 
Yeah, so we—I love our women's studies in our church, and I feel like everyone comes—we're usually like, a more quiet bunch, a little more introverted. But I've noticed in these groups, like, people come and they start to share, and as one person starts to share, more people start to share, and it just creates this vulnerable, beautiful space.

Laurie Graham  20:07 
Yeah, and I think it's also a model of humility. I think that is one of the biggest keys, is when we're in it with everyone else, like humility, of saying, "I struggle too." And not being like a top-down place. "Oh, you're having this hard time. I will, I will help you," right? I think there's, there's something about humility in emotionally safe places.

Laurie Graham  20:37 
Can you talk a little bit about healthy boundaries? Because sometimes I think we're scared to create safe places, because it gets a little like—little like—there's no boundaries. We're overwhelmed, or we're allowing things to be said that actually isn't safe, right? You know, sometimes we're like, listening so much to this person who's maybe even causing some damage in a group, right? Listening isn't with no boundaries. I think that's important to say. So can you talk about some healthy boundaries as we create safe spaces?

Kati Quigley  21:06 
Yeah, and I would say, too, I think a lot of that responsibility should fall on the group leader. If we're looking at this from a group—like, we're in a group—the leader knowing, like, if someone's saying something that feels like it could be taken as shame for the other person, feels like they're going to think they're doing something wrong. That's where we can kind of step in and redirect it. And it doesn't have to be like a, "Don't say that," you know, just, "Oh yeah, that's interesting. And we're gonna move on to here," and just being able to go with the flow, with that, yeah, is a boundary.

Laurie Graham  21:43 
Yeah, I think this is so, as we talked about earlier, this is a conversation, y'all. We're starting this conversation and think about, like, your own church space. How much safety have you created there? How much allowance have you made for listening? How much do we kind of sugarcoat things and actually shut down conversation because of our discomfort?

Laurie Graham  22:09 
So I do want to just talk a little bit, Kati, a little more about how faith doesn't replace therapy and therapy doesn't replace faith, and how we can really model maybe a little more partnership with this in our churches.

Kati Quigley  22:25 
Yeah, I think that probably starts from a place of talking about it. Like, "Hey, me, personally, I am a therapist, and I love Jesus, and I can incorporate the two where I can, and not incorporate the two, but everything I'm doing is through a biblical lens," you know? And there are other people out there who therapy is very helpful. I go to therapy. I love therapy. Therapy is very helpful. And the more stories you hear, the more testimonies you hear, the more you're like, "Oh, this isn't just for people who are like, can't get out of bed," you know, right? "Oh, Katie seems like she's kind of functioning in the world, but she like, oh, maybe it's not. Maybe this could be for everybody."

Laurie Graham  23:06 
Yeah, yeah. You know, I think another way of kind of building some safety and humility at the same time is just saying to people—sometimes people come to us with needs, or even at a group—and I think it's okay just to come straight out, if you're not Katie, you can say, "I'm not a therapist, right? I'm not a therapist, but I really care about you. I care about healing."

Laurie Graham  23:27 
And in that as we recognize needs for therapy, for ourselves and others, what's the value of building a referral list, Kati, and how do we do that?

Kati Quigley  23:39 
Yes, I think that's a great question. So different therapists are going to have different things that they're good at, because, like in grad school, they really don't teach you much about trauma. This is something I've mostly learned outside of my Master's program, and something that I now say I specialize in, but having people in the community. So getting to know your therapist in the community and know, like, "Okay, if I have someone with an eating disorder, this is a great referral. I have someone with trauma, this is a great referral. I have couples. This is a great referral." I don't see couples, so I would never take couples. That's something I know that I am not strong in. And so just knowing the people in your community—even [ask them to] come and send us an email, get to know us—and because we are always looking to be added to referral sources. So that would be a great joy for us to partner with churches.

Laurie Graham  24:33 
Yeah, yeah. How do we find out who we trust and who we like? What are your tips on that one? Because I think that's really difficult, and also for churches in small towns and rural areas, like a lot of times, there is not... How do we find local therapists or counselors, or, you know, people who even do counseling over Zoom? I think sometimes is important. So how do we—how do we make the list, Kati?

Kati Quigley  24:56 
That is such a good question. I would say... I honestly, like my first instinct is, like, talk to the person. See if you like [them]. Ask them some questions. Ask them, first of all, see if they're fully licensed—that part's important—and see what areas do they have extra training in? What areas are they passionate about? And I would start asking. Usually, you can even see on their websites, like, "Oh, on the website, I'm very trauma focused," on my website. So you can kind of see that. And then even as getting word-of-mouth referrals too, like, if you know someone who saw someone that's really good, be like, "Okay, I can add them to my referral source." Yeah.

Laurie Graham  25:46 
And I do think for those of you in rural areas, Zoom is really interesting. What the internet has done in the field of counseling and even some of the changes in licensing over, you know, different states—and I know different things that are coming up with that—a lot of people feel like, if they can't go in person, it's not any good. And licensure—their licensing requirements and stuff is often based on the state. So, but there is so much help available, even in group settings. Zoom settings can actually feel safer than going into an office with a door shut. Like, for a lot of people, that feels really limiting, too. So, like, you know, I think trying out some different things and, like, letting our brains get a little bigger with creative ideas can really be helpful, too.

Laurie Graham  26:31 
You know, this episode, we're talking about what churches can do. We talked a little bit about normalizing counseling, right? Like, this is for all of us. This doesn't have to be way out. We talked a little bit about recognizing some things. We talked about building some more safety, like within our meetings and the way that we talk and the way that we listen. We talked about a little bit about referrals. What else, Katie, is popping in mind in what else can churches do in this area?

Kati Quigley  26:58 
Yeah, I love that you brought up virtual counseling, because there are a ton of therapists. So I can see anyone in the state of Indiana right now due to my licensure, and so there are a lot of people who do virtual counseling. Yeah, you don't have to just be looking in your little area. I personally don't do virtual, but that's only because I'm not a good therapist virtually. There are other therapists who are wonderful virtually. So I love that option as well, for a lot of people, too.

Laurie Graham  27:27 
Awesome, awesome. Okay, y'all, we're in the middle of a series just talking a little bit about counseling, about churches doing no harm, where we've done some harm, what we can do better, how we can really come together, all of us, and move toward healing and emotional health and not just modeling it, but also, I believe, like fully embracing who God has created us to be, and like our potential. I think our potential is wrapped up and limited by our own emotional health.

Laurie Graham  27:59 
Next episode, y'all, we're going to talk a little bit about finding the right kind of help. We're going to talk about the difference between therapy and coaching or spiritual direction. We're going to talk a little bit about group options and intensives and things like that, and for you, but also for the people that you serve, [and] with the people that come to us for help at a church, like understanding what works well for different people, maybe a little bit of what to avoid, and maybe what we can do ourselves as individuals to keep getting healthier, too.

Laurie Graham  28:33 
Kati, any closing remarks on this part two of our Do No Harm series?

Kati Quigley  28:40 
I think that the church has huge potential to create safe spaces for people, to be able to lean into their pain, to be able to sit with them in empathy and compassion, which can make such a difference for people. So I really think there's a lot the church is capable of, as we're talking about in this session today.

Laurie Graham  28:59 
Yeah, for sure, and if you're listening right now, please share this episode with one person and just have a conversation about it. You know, Kati and I were taking the pressure off ourselves to say all and be all and do all in this series, because we can't. There's no way we can answer every question. And this podcast is not a therapy podcast. We're just talking about small churches. So we want to equip you with a few things to ask questions, start the conversations, and maybe be a little more responsible and intentional about what can be as we're involved in ministry, as volunteers, as ministry leaders, and as pastors.

Laurie Graham  29:36 
So love you guys tons. We'll see you. We'll talk again next week, and until then, be a light.