202: Do No Harm - Sorting Through Counselors, Coaches & Confusion (and Why It’s Worth the Effort )| with Licensed Therapist Kati Quigley

Finding the right kind of help shouldn’t feel complicated - but between long waitlists, confusing titles, and church mixed messages about therapy, it often does.

In the final part of the Do No Harm series, Laurie and licensed therapist Kati Quigley talk about what makes finding help so hard, and why it’s still worth the effort. 

Together, they unpack the difference between a counselor, coach, and spiritual director, why “biblical counseling” can unintentionally do harm, and how to find affordable, faith-aligned options that actually support healing.

Connect with Kati Quigley:
katiquigleycounseling.org

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Transcript

Laurie Graham: 0:01

Hey, welcome to the Small Church Ministry Podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy, and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I'm your host, Laurie Graham. Let's dive in. Hey, welcome back to the Small Church Ministry Podcast. I am Laurie, and we are wrapping up today our three-part series

called "Do No Harm: 0:30

When the Church Tries to Heal What It Doesn't Understand." We're talking about mental health. We're talking about counseling and how often our best intentions are overstepping into some places where we don't have the expertise. Over the last couple of episodes, we've talked with licensed therapist Katie Quickly about how good intentions in the church can sometimes cause real harm when we are trying to fix pain that we don't understand. In part one, we talked about the hidden damage that can happen when untrained pastors or biblical counselors try to handle trauma or mental health within a church setting. In part two, we talked about the powerful thing that churches can do without practicing advice-giving or counseling, how we can create emotionally safe spaces where listening and empathy do a lot of really powerful work. And today we're getting a little personal, talking about where we can get the help we need, what kind of help we might need, where to go, where to start. Because for a lot of us, we want to grow in our own health, our own understanding of our past, our present, our future, the way our minds work, and the way our hearts lean into things, but we don't always know what we need. And then when we think maybe we might, it's so hard to narrow down the options or even find affordable options that can get us started or on the way. The internet is noisy, waitlists are long, and even the words like"therapist," "counselor," and"coach" can sometimes get a bit confusing. But it's totally worth understanding and leaning into it, because our emotional health is worth it. In this episode, Katie and I are talking about how to find real help that fits your story, what to look for, how to maybe start building some relationships and get some referrals, how faith and clinical care can complement each other instead of compete. We're also going to talk about some more affordable options, like why group therapy might be a place to start, or even some support type groups within church settings, and why waiting for safe help is worth it and what you can do in the meantime. So if you've ever reached out for support and felt a little unsure where to start, or you've tried to help others find support and come up with the same roadblocks or confusion, this episode is for you. So let's dive in. How do we know what kind of help we need when we want to grow? And sometimes, I have to be honest, I get tons of help reading blog posts or listening to podcasts and learning tips and tricks for dealing with my own nervous system. So let's talk about this, Katie, because maybe somebody's popping in for the first time, hasn't heard you before? Can you just give another brief overview of who you are and what you do and why you're here.

Kati Quigley: 3:27

Absolutely. Katie Quigley here, hello, licensed mental health counselor. I specialize in trauma. I'm EMDR certified. I love what I do, am passionate about what I do, feel called to what I do, and love Jesus.

Laurie Graham: 3:42

I love that you added "love Jesus," because every time you've introduced yourself, I've said, "And she loves Jesus too." And the reason for that is because we do see splits in some churches saying, "Well, therapy and Jesus don't go together. Like, we're..." You know. And here we are. We love Jesus. We love scripture. We know God can do everything, and we still find a place for counseling. So we're going to talk a little bit in this episode about why it's hard to find help, the differences in all the helps we can find, and just how to land in a place where we're learning and growing. Before we dive in, Katie, I want you to talk about the limitations of Reels and memes. So I can't even tell you how much counseling advice I feel like I get from Facebook Reels, Instagram videos, and memes, right? Like, I mean, like, how many people don't know what narcissism is these days or aren't looking for it? So can we talk about why maybe we shouldn't rely on the advice we're getting about boundaries from, you know, so-and-so who's on TikTok?

Kati Quigley: 4:48

Yes, let me tell you why. Let me inform you. It's because of the nature of these social medias that keeps everything very, very brief, right? That's the nature of it. Misinformation is just waiting to happen because we're trying to keep everything brief. And a lot of these topics are not something that can be summarized in a three-second Reel, and so we miss some of the nuance and the depth and the understanding of what, one, narcissism actually is, or what trauma is, or what OCD is, right, because of the spread of misinformation. So be careful out there. Yeah.

Laurie Graham: 5:30

But you know what I'm saying, right? And I have to be honest, I've learned a lot from those. Like, I really have. I've gotten some really good information, and I've also gotten some "I don't think that's quite right." But I think social media and our awareness of things these days just can lead us into a deeper place of understanding. But let's figure out where we can go. Let's do better, church. Okay, let's just do better than memes. Okay. Yeah, so, okay, let's go. Why is it so hard to find help today? So, Katie, do you even agree with that statement? Because I'm going to tell you, people say this to me all the time. "I can't find a counselor. I don't know where to go." It seems like we have information at our fingertips galore in our world. Why is it so hard to find the

Kati Quigley: 6:23

I do agree with that statement. Especially the past couple of years, I've noticed most of the really solid therapists are completely booked and have waitlists. I'm seeing that trend to come down just a tiny bit, so I'm seeing a little more openness this fall, but, um, yeah, I think it's hard to find the therapist that even fits with you, because sometimes, like, someone may say, "Oh, this person's awesome," and maybe they're not a right match for you. And I think it is a, it is a process of finding that person that's going to be a connection.

Laurie Graham: 7:02

Yeah, yeah. It's really hard because a lot of people that we have in our community, we want help, but we don't know who to trust. Or like you're saying, there's a waitlist that's really long. By the way, if you're in that situation, you're not alone. And we're also going to give you some tips and some things about like some group processes that are really good, and sometimes starting in a coaching area can lead you into some good spaces, as you're looking for your counselor or looking for support in other ways. So we'll talk about some creative options of finding help. But if it's so hard to find help, how do we not give up, Katie? Like, we're on waitlists, we're trying. Is it worth the effort?

Kati Quigley: 7:44

I would say it's worth the effort, and I would too. If you're looking for a therapist, you can go on sites like Psychology Today. It shows all your therapists in your area. You can just Google therapists in your city. But I find it most helpful to ask other people who've been to therapy and find reliable sources that way, because then you at least know, okay, at least this person's legit as you go into them. But I would say even if you're on a waitlist, waiting can be good, if you can get the help that you need eventually.

Laurie Graham: 8:21

Yeah, the wait is hard. And I just want to say, I think people who find the support they need, they work really hard to find it. Like, if it's worth your growth, if it's worth your just your future understanding of yourself and being healthier, like, let's just go there and let's support each other in the meantime. You know, last episode, we talk about the church, you know, creating more safe spaces, being a place of empathy, of listening, of care, that can be the breathing space we need as we are waiting for deeper health, right? So the reason we're talking about this on the Small Church Ministry Podcast and not talking about how to program your next youth group lock-in, is because we're people, we're humans, and the healthier we are, the healthier we function as servants and leaders and pastors, the healthier our church spaces become, because our relationships are better, because we're better, because we have a better understanding of ourselves. So let's talk about the differences between therapy, counseling, coaching. I'll throw in a few tidbits about spiritual direction as well. But Katie, when you think of all the help that's out there, the titles that we give to people, is there a difference between a therapist and a counselor? Because I use those words kind of interchangeably, and then let's talk about counseling and coaching too. So as you're thinking of people who are looking for help, what are the differences between these people?

Kati Quigley: 9:46

Let's start with that: counseling and therapy can be used interchangeably. They're the same thing. I call myself a therapist. I'm a licensed mental health counselor. It's essentially the same thing. I think it's important when you're looking, at least in the state of Indiana, there are three

different types of licensures: 10:02

there's Licensed Mental Health Counselor, there's Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, and there's Licensed Social Worker. All three of them can do therapy work. All three of them can do trauma work. So when you're looking at a fully licensed person, you want to look for one of those three. Usually, if you're looking for couples counseling, generally, the Marriage and Family Therapist is the one who specializes in that, but not always, not necessarily. So that's just a tiny snapshot on the clinical therapist side. And then we also have the coaching side of it. Now I'm not a coach myself, so I'll try not to give any misinformation, but coaching tends to be more present-day, goal-oriented, solution-focused work of just trying to get you to your next goal. They're not supposed to do processing of past trauma. It's supposed to be more, "Okay, I understand trauma. I'm trauma-informed, and we're going to take that information into your goals." That is what coaching is supposed to be more of.

Laurie Graham: 11:13

Yeah, let me talk about the initials, because this is something I've learned over the years. The initials, to me, the certifications in counseling, mean that there's accountability, but the expertise in the counselors I follow, for me, usually has to do with more of their heartbeat, their passion, and their advanced trainings. Like, to me, you can have counselors with the same initials after their name, and I'm looking for the ones who have advanced training or understand trauma or do story work or things like that. So I think also, all initials are not the same. I think one thing that was very—it was interesting to learn—some of my favorite counselors that are in our community, that practice in a lot of different ways, they're, you just said it, they're Licensed Social Workers, right? That's their master's degree, but they're some of the best therapists I've ever seen. And so sometimes the initials aren't always what you think they are. But where do you find security in the initials after names, Katie? Like, to me, it's like there's accountability. There has been training, and I know a little more about what that training is, how extensive it is, right?

Kati Quigley: 12:22

Yeah, I know they at least have had supervision. I know they at least have a licensing board that's over them. The coaching area doesn't have quite as much accountability as the therapy area. But yeah, I know they've put in at least, you know, 700 to 1,000 hours of their internship. I know, you know. So we know they've at least met that. We know they have a master's degree. So we know, yeah, we know they at least have that bit. And then each therapist, well, right now, is a trend for every therapist to kind of have like a niche, right? Like, where they're zooming in on a specific area. We have found that to be more marketable. So when people are going out, especially into private practice, they're kind of pushing, "Okay, what's your niche," or "niche," or however you want to pronounce it, that you want to go towards, and then just get really built up strong in that area so you can provide the best care for that area.

Laurie Graham: 13:25

Yeah, I loved what you said about coaches, that you don't always know with a coach what kind of education they've had. And I just want to say, anybody can call themselves a coach. So for all of you, if you're looking for a coach, don't just rely on somebody having a website. Anybody can make a website. Like, I really look at values and beliefs and experience and testimonies. Like, even people who go through the International blah, blah, blah, coach [program]—that doesn't mean a lot, everybody. There's not supervision like with a counselor, and some of my favorite people are coaches. Like, I just want to say some of my favorite people are coaches, and about 90% of people I know who call themselves coaches. To me, they're not a coach. Like, I think we have to be really careful with that. But if you find a good coach or a good counselor, Katie, what's the difference? Like, when do you need a coach—a good coach, let's say, a real coach that isn't just slapping a name on it, right? What's, you know, if I'm looking for help, do I start one place or the other, or is there a specific line that you're like, "Oh, if you're dealing with that, you need a counselor versus a coach?"

Kati Quigley: 14:34

Yeah, I'd say, if it's anything that is, how do I want to word this? Like, higher in severity? So if you are struggling with suicidal ideations, I maybe would be looking more at therapy. If it's past trauma, for sure, therapy. If it's...

Laurie Graham: 14:59

Making a decision on a future career? That could be a coach.

Kati Quigley: 15:01

Yeah, yeah. If it's more like pathology, that is like the word I want to use, we're looking at more disordered processes, that is more therapy.

Laurie Graham: 15:46

And I've heard people say like, counseling is about your past and coaching is about your future, but I don't like that delineation.

Kati Quigley: 15:54

No, no, yeah, I do. I mean, even in the EMDR world, yeah, we're doing past work, but we also do present targets and future targets in the EMDR world too. So it's not just a past we're looking at. I'm always looking past, present, and future.

Laurie Graham: 16:12

And I do know certified counselors who also have a coaching a coaching arm, right? And they don't do counseling in their coaching arm, right, at all. But sometimes you'll see that as a mix as well. And let me just throw out spiritual direction here real quick, because a lot of people—it's kind of trendy in some circles. And spiritual directors, I will just say, if you—it's nothing mystical, it's nothing weird. It's like having a spiritual friend. They have a little more training typically than a typical ministry leader. But spiritual direction training also varies like crazy, just like the coaching. Some people like, they go to a weekend workshop and come back and say,"I'm a spiritual director," right? You know, and it's, it's mind-boggling for me. And then there's other certification programs to become a certified spiritual director under so and so, like, there's a name with it that's like a two-year program. And the spiritual directors that I know, who've been through incredible training, are really learning a lot about empathy. They're listening. They're not advice-giving. There's not really discipleship involved, but it's like having a listening friend who loves Jesus and, you know, who helps you kind of uncover things that you're kind of dealing with yourself. But it's not an advice-giving thing. But I just want to say like that is a thing. There's a lot of churches now who have spiritual directors, even on staff and things like that, but spiritual direction is not counseling, and it's not coaching, and it's all really different. And when you look at your goals, of, you know, "How do you want to come out differently?" I think that's a really good thing to ask when you're looking for help. Like, would you ever say that to somebody, Katie? Like, "What kind of goals are you looking for? Like, what, what are you hoping to see changed?" Can that help us narrow in on what type of support we're looking for?

Kati Quigley: 18:01

Yeah, I think so. And I think there's some overlap here too. Like, oh yeah, coach works on things that therapists work on. Can both kind of be in both camps sometimes? But yeah, I mean, starting from that place, okay, what are my goals? Which is something, you know, we ask in the first session, "What are those goals you want?" Can help look at if you want to process past trauma, yeah, that's therapy. If you're trying to get—what did you say just a second ago? Get to the next phase, or, yeah, something present-day focused. But also that can be therapy too. So it's, it's tricky, and I, obviously, I'm speaking from a therapy lens. So any of you coaches want to jump in and speak to that, feel free.

Laurie Graham: 18:51

Well, I think also, like, you have had a lot of advanced training in different things, so I wouldn't even put you in the same camp as other counselors I know. Like, you know, I think this is something that we need to understand. Just like every medical doctor is not the same, every counselor is not the same, every coach is not the same, every spiritual director is not the same. This is where we build relationships and build trust and get references and really look at it, but I think it's cool just to talk a little bit about the nuances of the different labels. And how do we know if somebody is licensed or trauma-informed, Katie, as a therapist, right?

Kati Quigley: 19:26

Well, it should be very clearly labeled on their website or on their paperwork that they have an LMHC, you know, Licensed Marriage [and] Family [Therapist], Licensed Social Worker degree. That should be very clearly in it.

Laurie Graham: 19:41

Yeah, and we talked about this in our first, our Part One, is the difference between a biblical counselor and a licensed therapist. I basically said that I don't think biblical counselors should be called counselors because I think the word "counselor" is implying a certain level of training that most biblical counselors do not have. But do you want to speak a little to that bit about biblical counseling versus like, when do I go to a biblical counselor and when do I go to a licensed counselor?

Kati Quigley: 20:12

How dare you throw that question to me! If you are looking for only spiritual development, and all the other areas in your life are going great and you're not struggling with any other anxiety or depression or any of that stuff, then biblical counseling it is. If there's a deeper rooted thing, then I would say therapy is probably more your bet.

Laurie Graham: 20:38

Yeah, there's a there's a danger in biblical counseling, everybody. Like, I—it's we didn't really unpack it in the first part of the series, but the danger in biblical biblical counseling to me is I have seen way too many people thrown into shame spaces from biblical counseling. Biblical counseling is limited in a lot of ways. We're not saying that Jesus can't heal everything, but biblical counseling is pretty limited because often we try to go into deeper spaces, and the Bible wasn't created—like, the Bible's a relational book. It wasn't created to be every answer for therapy or, you know, life in different ways. Anything else, Katie, on the biblical counseling edge, before we move on, because we're going to talk about individual, group, intensives, like some of the different ways, even, like affordability, like, how do we get the help we need when we don't have money to pay for it? But before we do that, anything else that popped in mind as I was talking about biblical counseling? No. Okay, okay, we'll keep going. Yeah, so we're laughing here a little bit because, again, biblical counseling, it really is not the same as counseling. Like, I just think it needs a better term.

Kati Quigley: 21:49

I would agree to change the name of it. I would like to change the name of it. It's funny, my dad does biblical counseling or pastoral counseling, and I make fun of him all the time for it because I'm a real counselor.

Laurie Graham: 22:05

Well, what would we call it? Like, biblical mentoring? Could we—yeah, biblical mentoring, or some arm of, you know, discipleship or something. But that word counseling—it's a heavy one to throw around in that area with people who have very often very limited training and limited, meaning, haven't really studied the brain and the mind and the heart and our bodies and the way God created us to be. So, okay, let's move on from this uncomfortable situation. Okay, let's talk about—so I'm going to kind of loop this into affordability as well—but I want to talk about the difference between individual therapy, group therapy, and intensive therapies. Coaching also can be individual. Coaching can be group. Spiritual direction as well. I've seen it individual as well as groups. Oftentimes people think that individual is better. Like, "Oh, if I really want help, I need to go individual." And I'm going to tell you right now some of the most dynamic transformations I've seen in my life and other people have come out of group settings. Group settings are often more affordable as well, whether it's on Zoom or not. So Katie, can you talk a little bit about your experience, whether it's what you practice or what you've seen or what you've just experienced for yourself, but the difference between individual, group, and intensive and maybe the pros and cons and where we should lean in those areas?

Kati Quigley: 23:27

Yeah, I love group work. I think group work is awesome. It is a way to not feel as alone, because you have a group of people walking through similar struggles, and you can get input from other people. I think there's just so much benefit there. And usually, you're right, it is cheaper. It is usually a lot more affordable. If you are in group and you're realizing—I mean, obviously, I'm approaching everything from like a trauma lens—but you're realizing a lot of stuff from your past is just coming in and you don't know what to do with it. That's where I would say,"Okay, let's jump into individual counseling, either as well or instead of, to work through that." Individual counseling, a lot of us take different types of insurance, so it can go through your insurance. That's not always the best because of deductibles and stuff, so it still can be expensive. I do sliding scale, income-based sliding scales, so sometimes people have those too. You can look for that for people. What was the other one? Oh, and then intensives. Intensives, I feel like that's a relatively new thing that a lot of people are doing. Intensives, like, when you do hours worth of work, so maybe it's like three days in a row you do four hours, four hours, and four hours. And it just is a very quick pace, transformative, faster option to get through some of your goals.

Laurie Graham: 24:57

Yeah, okay, so I have to just talk about intensives for a minute. So I'm the one, like, in therapy where I'm just getting going and it's like, "Oh, our time's up!" Like, it takes a half an hour to really relax and get into what, you know, and I think that's one of the things about intensives, is you're kind of in a mode, and you can kind of remain there. But the break between every other week of counseling is also so good for your processing, right? Like to just get started and then, you know, do some work between the next one that's coming in two weeks, you know, if you're doing just regular individual work. I think that time in between is good too. So I know people who've done intensives, like, literally, like, you're saying, like, a weekend, and they're getting a lot of counseling or therapy, or, you know, even coaching sessions in this intense time. What's better? Like, is there some, like, "If you're dealing with this, do an intensive," and"If you're dealing with this, do individual?" Or is it just kind

Kati Quigley: 25:56

I think there's pros and cons to both. I consider intensives like, let's say you do a weekend and it's like three hours and three hours, so like six hours total. I would consider that the equivalent of doing like 10 sessions, 10 one-hour sessions, because you don't have that, like, you're having to ease in and you're having to close out, so you can get more accomplished. So that, I feel like, could be good if you have like one specific thing you want to work on, maybe this one memory that's coming up, or this one event that happened recently, or something like

Laurie Graham: 26:32

Yeah, yeah, it's true. And it's so cool. And I think one thing I'm really excited about this particular episode, and one thing I want to emphasize, is we want you to get the help you need. And we can't always afford the Cadillac. Like, I think there's levels here. Like, if you can't afford an intensive, you know, because money, money stops us sometimes, but it shouldn't stop us from help. Like, I just really believe there are group programs. I really believe books can help. I believe conversation with people in churches can help. I believe conversation with our best friends who are reading a book on shame or something really helpful on grief, to be able to know that just because we can't afford this, you know, Cadillac of a program, or can't afford to go as much as we can, we can still be working toward that. Like, let's say we're on a waiting list, right? Or we can't afford to go as much as we want. I think there is so much help and support out there for all of us today that I think it can be really beautiful. Katie, what is your experience? Or what could you say about, you know, church groups that pop up, like GriefShare? You know, GriefShare. There's addiction-type programs. There's some really beautiful programs. Are there any of those that you would say, "These are really great to check out?" We're going to talk about warning signs in a minute, you all, because you're going to try things that Katie and I have not experienced. You're going to go to a counselor. We can't say if they're good or not. You're going to try a church program that might be good. So we're going to talk about, when you get into these, how to recognize safety and red flags, like, "Oh, this is not for me." But can you give us any overviews of, you know, any of those type church programs that you've seen do some really great things?

Kati Quigley: 28:19

Yeah, I've heard really good things about Celebrate Recovery (CR). I don't know if they have that in the area you're at, and that's usually a faith-based thing. We have like a local grief center that does a bunch of different grief groups that I think is just phenomenal. So yeah, I think, I think a lot of those things can be good, especially as you're getting people together who have similar struggles, and they can lean on each other and help each other.

Laurie Graham: 28:49

Yeah, yeah. And so let's talk about those. And so this last segment of the podcast, we're going to talk about like recognizing safety as well as recognizing red flags. So let's say you're going to try out a certain counselor or a certain group, and by the way, your church can do a lot of good with, you know, if there are so many churches like, they'll have like a mental health thing, or just mental health awareness, the support groups, but we need to be really careful not to cross into those lines of counseling and advice-giving. Like, the programs we're talking about that are led by lay people like us, like me—not like Katie, because you're a trained counselor—but like something led by me, there's limitations. And I think this is where we need to talk about those safety signs and red flags. We're in a group, you know. "Katie and Laurie said we should try a support group." We go in and we're like, "Oh, I don't know about this." Like, what does safety feel like with a counselor, with a coach, with a group, you know, and what should we, what should we watch out for where it's crossing a line that, because every person that calls themselves healthy for us aren't healthy, right?

Kati Quigley: 30:02

So I usually tell people, give a counselor three sessions. If you do not feel a connection by three sessions, move on. Find someone else, because there has to be that sense of safety. And I think that sense, that sense of safety, is such a gut feeling. It's, "I can be vulnerable, I can be open about this," and when I am open about it, it's received with care and it feels good of how it's received. This can be in a group or an individual setting, and if you're getting that sense of, "I can be open and it's being received well," that is a good sign. That's a green flag we're looking for. If you're sharing and you're feeling like they're immediately going to advice-giving, they're immediately going to corrective thinking, even, and you're not feeling really like you find yourself sharing less and less. That's a red flag. Find a new person to go to next. And sometimes it takes going through a couple of therapists before you find one you like. It took me like three different tries before I found what I liked. So don't feel like, "Oh, I've committed to this," even, "Oh, I was on their waiting list. I've waited so long." Don't feel like that means you have to continue doing it if you do not feel safe or connected.

Laurie Graham: 31:19

Yeah, I think that's so interesting that you're talking about, I mean, kind of what I would call like, pay attention to your gut, right? Hmm, I think sometimes we think we can't trust our gut because we're putting our faith in this person of authority. Like, "Oh, I don't feel good about this," but the person in authority—this happens in pastoral situations. It happens in cults. It happens with teachers. It happens with therapists. Like, I've definitely seen certified therapists cause some damage. They've given some advice or some—not an ultimatum, but like, a directive that's like, "That is not okay." Like, so, can you talk just a little more about that our gut or our intuition, or maybe Holy Spirit, you know? How do we trust that?

Kati Quigley: 32:09

I would say that starts from a place of looking inward, of really thinking, "How am I feeling in this situation? Am I feeling comfortable? Am I feeling good? Do I walk away from this feeling worse than when I walked into it?" And then start allowing yourself to trust your own system.

Laurie Graham: 32:35

I think there's a little bit of reticence sometimes to reach out for help, especially when we've been hurt by help that wasn't healthy, right? Like, "Oh, I had a bad experience there in a church, with a counselor, in a group setting." What would you say to somebody who really knows they want help, but they're really scared to reach out again?

Kati Quigley: 32:59

I would say the process that you went through before that wasn't the best has given you new information, and this new information is going to inform you of what you want. So then when you step into the new therapist, you can approach it with, "This is what I know I want." And I would even encourage you, like, bring that up session one. "Hey, my last therapist made me feel like this," and let and see how they respond, and then check in with yourself. "Did I like that response? Did that feel safe? Did that feel trustworthy?" And decide from there.

Laurie Graham: 33:33

Yeah, I think this also leans in a little bit to our image of God and what God thinks of us, right? Because I was thinking right now, like, while you were talking, I'm like, yeah, if you leave a place feeling filled with shame and like you're the worst person on the planet, that's not a space that's safe for you. But I think of my own theology, and definitely have been in places where I was a bit more self-deprecating, like, "God is telling me I'm a terrible person." You know what I mean? Like, and I'm not saying I sat there for a long time, but some people do. Like, they like,"This is God disciplining me." Like, "I am supposed to feel shame-filled over my addiction," or over this struggle I'm having, or I feel guilty that I'm not forgiving a person, right? Like, I think some of this really leans into our view of God, like, and what God feels about us.

Kati Quigley: 34:23

Oh, definitely, I 100% agree with that. And yeah, because a lot of us, shame is a motivator, in a way, for a lot of us. So if we put shame on something, then maybe we can do the right thing. Um, and I heard someone say one time—I don't even know where I heard this—that shame is only a 48-hour motivator. So after 48 hours, you have to put more shame on it for it to be effective, and it is just a downward spiral. Yeah. And so instead of looking at your addiction as, "I have no control over this," that actually has been a source of survival to you up to this point, and now we, we can bring you into a new way to survive, right? And we start to reframe some of it in therapy.

Laurie Graham: 35:08

Yeah, I think we have been created so resilient, and some of our defenses or responses that have kept us safe enough and moving forward, they're gifts from God. And instead of shaming some of those things, the way that we are is to really look at it as an invitation that God may have more for us. You know what I mean? And I love to think of God as, as looking at me like I would look at my kids. Like, when they mess up, I just love them so much. Like, I'm so not looking at that all the time. You know when they were little, like, you know that? I think that's the God that created us. Like, he loves us so much. He just wants the best for us, and telling us that we're messing up again is really not part of his MO, like to keep us in that place. And so I think wherever we're all at at any given point in time, finding help that lifts us up, right? It's not a weakness. Like, this is, this is beauty, this is wisdom, this is community. This is, this is God, you know, putting people in our lives that can help us get healthier, because I really believe God has more for us at any given moment of any given day. Like, wherever you're listening from right now, God has more for you. He's not done with any of us, and there's more health and more wholeness than we could ever imagine. It's kind of mind-blowing. And I think it's so beautiful to think, to understand that therapy, counseling, like you said it earlier, Katie, like, this isn't an either/or, this is a both/and. Can you talk a little bit more about counseling and faith, and maybe ways you've seen your faith grow, or maybe stories of, you know, people in your church that you're like, "Wow, when this happened," like, it's like the testimony of the both/and instead of the either/or, right?

Kati Quigley: 37:18

Yeah, I love—I'll give this example. This is something I do with clients. So one of the resources in EMDR is, you picture this like safe, calm place, right? And it helps shift our nervous system into this place of safety and calm. And if I know someone is a Christian, has a strong faith, they want to incorporate that into counseling, we'll go into the safe, calm place and go through all the senses and be there, and then I'll invite them to bring in Jesus into this place. And what does that feel like in their body as they're sitting next to Jesus? And I think that that is a perfect representation of where we can combine clinical and biblical together, because it's not one or the other. I think they both intertwine together. I mean, God created our brains. God created our bodies, so I like the incorporation of both.

Laurie Graham: 38:14

Yeah, I love that you just gave that specific example. And I'm going to invite everybody listening to close your eyes and picture a safe space now. And I also want to throw this out, that this is a beautiful thing to do in a small group, to invite people into, in a youth group, in a Bible study. There's nothing mystical or weird about it. It's like, close your eyes right now and just imagine a place that feels safe for you. It could be your couch, it could be your quiet time chair, it could be your back porch. It could be sitting by the ocean, but just like picture that right now. And maybe you put your hand on your heart, and you kind of slow your breath down. And maybe you don't. Maybe you just sit in quiet and picture it. And picture Jesus meeting us there. Like, let's be healthy. This is a beautiful thing. It can bring some calm into a space when we're feeling anxious, when we're feeling upset. It's not a replacement for counseling, but it's a little tip. It's a little tool that can help us get grounded in Jesus. Like, in Jesus right now, in this space, instead of wherever our brain is taking us and our next steps and what we didn't get done in the next ministry thing that we feel like we're failing at. I hope this little mini-series has given you some grace. Like, I want to end with that, Katie. Like, how can we give ourselves grace that even when we mess up, even when we've tried something, even when we're struggling? Let's talk about that a little bit before we close.

Kati Quigley: 39:54

Yeah, I think with each thing we do, even if it's a mistake, it creates an opportunity for new understanding and new information, new information for our system, and we can use that as a growing point, as a launching point, rather than to sit in the shame of the mistake. I think the grace can create opportunity for growth.

Laurie Graham: 40:19

Yeah. And was it Maya Angelou who said, "Now that we know better, we can do better?" Is that, am I quoting the right person?

Kati Quigley: 40:25

I don't know, but I like it. It sounds like a good quote.

Laurie Graham: 40:28

Yeah, no matter what we've done, no matter where we've been, now we know better, and we can do better. And even just this one episode, like thinking of finding help, being intentional about, you know, creating spaces for safety, for empathy, for just grace for ourselves and everyone else. So if you're listening and you do have some questions, or you have some other things you'd like us to address, whether it's in the free group or on the website or another podcast episode, we'd love to hear from you. You can always email Hello@smallchurchministry.com. You can leave questions and comments in our Facebook community, but the topics that we cover and we talk about in any of our spaces is really based on what people are asking, what you're asking. We're in this together. We're a community. We're constantly building community. We're growing. We are a group that deeply looks at values and intentionality and and who we believe God is calling us to be. So in your small church setting, yes, we want you to be a light. And we also just as individuals, we want to just keep growing. This isn't just about serving other people. It's about being who God created us to be in wholeness, spiritually, relationally, in mind and body, because he created us pretty amazing. And I love, Katie, what you said in the earlier episode about curiosity. I love your message of grace, and just you have such a welcoming spirit about you. So if you are in Indiana and looking for a therapist, we'll make sure to drop Katie's link in the show notes, and I'm sure she'll be back in our community and speaking at other conferences. So any last words from you, Katie?

Kati Quigley: 42:27

No, I just greatly appreciate this. I appreciate being able to open this conversation and just start talking about it.

Laurie Graham: 42:34

Yeah, and there'll be more conversations to come. All right, y'all, until next week, be a light.