211: What Actually Works in Ministry With Women | with Abigail Doust

After decades of ministry in small churches — including years as a pastor’s wife — Abigail Doust has learned what truly serves women and what quietly pushes them away. 

In this episode, we talk honestly about moving beyond stereotypes, events-for-events’-sake, and one-person leadership, and toward ministry that helps women feel seen, known, and spiritually formed. 

This is a grounded, experience-rich conversation about gathering women well, building teams, and creating space for authentic faith to grow.

In this episode, we talk about: 

1. The difference between women’s ministry and a ministry that actually serves women
2. Why many women quietly avoid church events — and what changes that
3. How small teams and shared leadership create healthier ministry
4. What discipleship looks like when we focus on the whole person, not attendance

Connect with Abigail Doust: 

equippingforimpact.com

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Transcript

Laurie Graham  0:01 
Hey, welcome to the Small Church Ministry Podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy, and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I'm your host, Laurie Graham. Let's dive in.

Laurie Graham  0:22 
Hey, hey! Welcome back to another episode of the Small Church Ministry Podcast. We are so excited to be counting down to our Women’s Ministry in Small Churches Conference, which is happening on the last Saturday of January. If you have not gotten your free ticket yet, they are live! Go grab it. You do not want to miss it. It’s free, it’s online, and it is unlike anything you have ever been to before. Today, we are talking to one of the speakers who is going to be there; Abigail Doust is joining us today from Colorado. We have a fun story of how we met up—I don’t know if she’s going to share it or I will—but I am so excited to have you here with us today.
 
 Abigail, do you want to tell everybody just a little bit about yourself?

Abigail Doust  1:05 
Absolutely. Hello, everybody! I am in Denver. I am married and have four ever-growing kids—two out of the house, two in. I have been doing ministry for years and years, depending on when you count it. I have played a lot of roles—volunteer, staff, and coming alongside in different ministries—and I am thrilled to be here. My niche is conversation. I really want Christians to have deeper conversations, and I think it's essential at small churches that we be "sticky" with people and get real with them. So, I'm tickled to be here.

Laurie Graham  1:41 
Can't wait! Oh, I love it; I love it. And so for women's ministry, as we jump in—if you're listening to the podcast for the first time or if you've been around for a while—we are taking a little focus this month to talk about women's ministry, kind of counting down to the big event at the end of the month. Abigail has done ministry in all sorts of spaces and in different ways: on staff, not on staff, married to a pastor, and now as a volunteer in her small church. I was so excited to have her on just to talk about what she's learned in women's ministry over the past couple of decades. This isn't just a "top 10 ideas" episode; this is about what you've actually seen working, what's worked well for you, and the "why" behind it all. Maybe we'll even get into a few mistakes that we've made ourselves or seen other people make. But I just want to start with this, based on our previous conversations: Abigail, you've been honest—like you said, you want to be real—about the fact that you haven't always loved women's ministry itself. Can you talk about that? I also just want to say how common this is. There are people who love women's ministry and there are people who don't—right?

Abigail Doust  2:58 
Right, absolutely. Well, personally, I wasn’t raised in the church, and my perception of church was formed in the South. I grew up in the Midwest, but then I was in the South, and a women’s event meant really pretty decor—like every table was different because women would bring their China and their flowers—and it was pretty superficial. So, what I realized was that I was jaded by a level of superficiality within women’s ministry. It seemed like the kind of thing where when I went, I didn’t feel known, seen, or heard; I felt like we were all just playing a part or playing some sort of game. It’s just not me; it doesn’t resonate with me. And so I went out of obligation, and yes, God met me there. I’m not going to be a "big whiny butt" and say that nothing good ever happened. No, you go and you push through, and God shows up. I’m really grateful He did. But there was just a disconnect for me during all those years we were involved in that kind of church. Then, my husband was interviewing at a small church in the Midwest, not anywhere we had lived before. While he was being interviewed by the elders, I had time with an elder’s wife, and she was showing me around. She said, "Hey, we would love for you to consider being a part of women’s ministry." Did I have a big triggered response? It was so embarrassing, Laurie! I said, "Oh, I hate women’s ministry!" And then I gasped and tried to dial it back. I realized I was in an interview too, but it was just so raw for me. I eventually said, "Okay, I’m sorry. Let me just dial that back. I just feel like there are limitations. I think the women’s events I’ve been to have not served all women, and I have not felt included or reaped as much benefit from them." Well, as it turns out, she was an elder’s wife serving as a women’s ministry leader who was looking to offload it—she really wanted someone else to do it—and she became a mentor and a discipler to me. We met for several months, and it only took a few weeks for God to challenge me. She did it a little too, but it was mostly the Holy Spirit saying, "What is it that you want ministry to look like?" And I was like, "Oh, well, I want it to be a ministry to women. What ministers to women? What do women need?" So, there was a day where we had a conversation and she asked, "What do you think women need?" I told her, "Well, women need to have a safe place to ask questions about the Bible. They need to have a safe place to talk about what they’re wondering and what their challenges are, and they need to get 'sticky' with people in a super real way. I want them to feel equipped, known, and seen." She looked at me and said, "Wouldn’t that be women’s ministry?" It was a huge lightbulb moment for me. If that’s what women’s ministry is, then sign me up! I want women to know their Bibles, to feel confident in who they are in Christ, and to be in a really meaningful community. If that’s what women’s ministry is, then I’m all in. But it’s almost like the phrasing "women’s ministry" conjures up images of superficial events, while "ministry to women" means asking, "What do women need, and how can we come alongside them?"

Laurie Graham  6:32 
Yeah, I love everything you've said, and I want to go back to that visual of what women's ministry conjures up for you, because you also said that in your experience, women's ministry didn't meet all women. It wasn't for everyone; it was just for one specific type. For some women, women's ministry conjures up images of really strict Bible studies, and they don't want that. Oh yes, it’s so different depending on the church we were raised in—or not—and our first peek or dipping our toes into a women’s ministry, because people will kind of push back against almost everything. I want to go back to what you said about "all women," because for some women, doing the decor is meaningful and is honestly an act of service that can be really beautiful. For other women—I remember Charmaine Stulp at one of our first women's ministry conferences; in her profile picture, she had a power drill because she was like, "I don't feel this ministry; I like to build things." It was so funny because it is interesting: how do we create a women's ministry that meets all women? I love the work you do with connection and conversation because, quite honestly, we all have more in common than we do apart.

Abigail Doust  7:54 
Yes, thank you for saying that. That's the thing—we have so much more in common. As a coach, I got certified as a Christian coach back in 2014, and one of the things coaches ask is, "What would you like to see? What would you imagine being?" And so, what if we got more comfortable in our church settings just asking, "We'd love to get women together; what would you love to see happen?" What would you love the result of our getting together to be? Let your people dream a little bit; let them all have their voice in what might be important. We can't make everyone happy, of course, when it comes down to it, but let's ask those questions.

Laurie Graham  8:31 
Okay, so I love several things we’ve talked about over the past week or so as you and I have been putting this podcast topic together. One of the things I really love is that you really focus on the "why"—knowing why we’re coming together. I think oftentimes we get frustrated when an event goes badly, or when everyone doesn’t show up, and things like that; I think so often that question, "Why?", isn’t even asked from the start. So, can you talk about the "why" and why it's important, and how we can bring that more to a conscious level for anyone out there—whether you’re listening and you volunteer, whether you lead the women’s Sunday school, or whether you’re teaching a Bible study? Let’s talk about this word.

Abigail Doust  9:14 
Why? Yes, when we know why we're motivated, we are already compelled forward, and it's really good to know why we're doing something. So many times in small churches—but really big churches as well—we get into this habit of saying, "Oh, it's time for a women's event," or "We always do a Mother's Day tea," or "It's time for that fall whatever." Instead of just being on autopilot, thinking, "This is what we do," let's ask: what are we hoping for women to leave with, whether it be spiritual, physical, mental, emotional, or relationship-oriented? What would we love to have happen there? What would be the purpose of meeting? What do we want people to experience? There is a book I’m reading now that really informs this for me called The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker. I’m really enjoying it; it’s not a Christian book, but she offers a reframe. So many times we think about an event only in the context of food and decor—and I agree with you that some people love decor or food, and they should be able to run in their lane and be blessed by operating the way God made them. But in addition to that, what are we going to do with these human beings who come together? Are we going to foster an environment where they can connect on a real level and feel stronger, perhaps, or more seen and heard? So instead of just sending an invite and throwing some images on it, let's really be intentional and ask: what are we hoping for, and what is the purpose of this event? One of the things she said that I really loved was that we can fall into the trap of just choosing a category, like on an Evite: "Oh, this is a bridal shower." Well, knowing it’s a bridal shower doesn’t explain why we want to get together. I won't go off on this, but take the example of a bridal shower or a baby shower. It used to be that we had them because people didn't have the things they needed for the baby or home, and you wanted to bring gifts so they would have everything they need. But sometimes we want it to be co-ed; we want to show the couple how they can work together as a team. Maybe we want the wisdom and support of others. There might be other things we want to bring in to serve that family well. If we think not just in categories—like "this is a retirement party" or "this is a bridal shower"—but instead ask, "What do we want our people to experience while they're there?", that is so much more valuable. I don't know about you, but I don't love baby showers; however, if I knew there was something really special going on that I was aware of from the beginning—if I could feel it from the invite and the wording—that would be really compelling.

Laurie Graham  11:59 
Yeah, so I want to talk about this a little bit. Let's do a couple more examples. Because I think if this "why" question is so important, let's work with it a little bit. So, let's say we are having a mother-daughter tea for Mother's Day, and the "why" is because we do it every year or because we want to celebrate moms. What else could it be?

Abigail Doust  12:23 
Well, one thing that comes to my mind is how special it would be to give mothers and daughters those opportunities. I would create a time for them to connect, turn to each other, and hear these conversation starters or things like, "One thing I love about you is..." or "You drive me crazy when..." and I would create that opportunity. What if it was a way to connect with the person you came with? That would be kind of cool. Or what would it mean to look at what the Bible says about this relationship or the role of a woman? What if we were to leave with our cups filled with something—imagine filling the cup—which cup would you want to be filled? Ultimately, we are hungry for community. We're so isolated, so we need to come up with ways to connect well, and knowing why you want to connect is good. Also, we want transformative experiences. I don't really want to go and leave as the same person; I want to be changed. I want to feel the presence of God. I want to be touched by who He is and how He's at work in these people around me. And if we want to be a part of transformative experiences, we had better start creating them.

Laurie Graham  13:31 
Yeah, well, asking why, as you were talking, I was thinking of a typical event I've done or I've been part of in churches where, for example, a women's ministry does an outreach event and they're collecting hygiene items for the unhoused people in the community. They do an event to pack it all up in bags. Most of the time we say, "Why are we doing that?" and the answer is, "Well, because we're packing it up in bags." Can I just say, I'd rather do that at home? I don't need to drive across town to go to church if that's the only reason, because it'll be quicker. But if the "why" is so that we can learn more and grow in compassion for people who are different than us, or connect as women in the church—well, then I also want to say, if we come up with these "whys," we had better be evaluating by them. Because think of how many times we've actually taken time to say why we're doing something, but then at the end of the event, all we ask is, "Did we make our budget?" and "How many people came?"

Abigail Doust  14:30 
Right, right, right. So when you say "evaluate," are you thinking of a solid debrief session afterward, or what does that mean to you?

Laurie Graham  14:38 
Oh, you’re turning the tables on me here! I think evaluation is one of the key things that we miss all the time; because we don't evaluate, we never get better and we never even know how we're doing. So to me, I love to ask people before they leave, "Hey, what was one thing that stood out to you?" I ask even the people participating—whether it's a movie night, a fondue party, or even a walk in the park—"What was one reason you're glad you came?" To me, that's evaluating, because you see what people got out of it. I also always love it if it's a bigger event where a team was involved; I’ll have a little card out with three questions: "What was your favorite thing?", "What didn't go as well?", and "If you're a volunteer, how did that go for you?" In these kinds of situations, if the point was to build community or to meet somebody you don't know—let's say it's an outreach thing—that's the question you should ask at the end. In my opinion, it would be: "Who did you get to know that you didn't know before?" or "What's one thing you learned about somebody that you didn't know?" That way, instead of saying, "Oh my gosh, nobody came," you can see that if only four people came but your goals were met, that's awesome.

Abigail Doust  15:42 
Yes, yes! Because it really isn't about the numbers. In that regard, you're stepping on something that is a really big soapbox for me, and that is when you get people together—like, say you're going to fill these bags, you know, perfect example—it's an outreach thing. People do not take time to introduce themselves to each other or to make any kind of connection at all; we just kind of assume we know each other, and maybe we know each other's names. But why not just take a minute to have everyone share an example of a time they've served in this kind of ministry before? What moves your heart about being a part of a ministry like this? And then you get some depth. Why not pray over them afterward before you go? Let's make it "sticky." And also, in your example, it makes me think that there are very task-oriented people and there are super relational people. Every time it's a relational thing, the task-oriented people are saying, "And we're doing what? We're just sitting around and talking?" Like, can we do something? Meanwhile, the people who are super relational are like, "Do we always have to be doing something? Can we just connect?" Really, both are true. If you invited me to go do something like that just for the task, I wouldn't want to do it either; I would want to stay home and do it on my own. But if we believe community is better, and if, in this case, that was the way to do it, let's maximize the experience. Let's ask: what else can we do to make this really worthy of people coming together, so that everyone who leaves thinks, "I'm so glad I came"?

Laurie Graham  17:12 
Yeah, oh yeah, for sure. And by the way, I would want to do it with people, but I'd want to be building relationships through it, you know what I mean? It's not that I'd rather do it at home; it's that if that's the only point of going—if we're just going to sit at our tables and not talk to people, and if we're just going to pack a bag—it's kind of like that thing where it’s another meeting that could have been an email. So, yeah, no, I'm all about the connection and the relationships 100%.

Laurie Graham  17:42 
They don't take advantage of it. And you know they won't.

Abigail Doust  17:46 
Yeah, sometimes that's really true.

Laurie Graham  17:48 
Okay, so, Abigail, we're obviously having a crazy amount of fun here today—which we really are. What else is important to you? Like, you're talking to random people around the globe right now just listening to this podcast episode on women's ministry; what else do you think is important to talk about today?

Abigail Doust  18:07 
It's so good to get all these thoughts out. There are two things that come to my mind when you say that. The first one is, I really believe in raising up people, empowering them, and helping them do the things they are made to do. And so I love the idea of getting people connected in the way of, "Oh, you make those amazing lemon bars. Will you bring them to this event? Will you make a triple batch and bring it?" Or, "You're so good at decor," or "I love how friendly you are when you greet; will you greet at this event?" I just want every woman to feel connected to her God-given purpose. I think women long for that, but I think that sometimes women leaders can just think, "Well, I'll just do it myself." It's honestly a little easier sometimes to just do it yourself because you can have meetings with yourself in the middle of the night, and you're eventually on the same page with yourself. But I think that it's beautiful when—even if I don't know how many women are going to come—I know she's bringing lemon bars, she's greeting, and she's covering decor, so I know I'm not going to be there alone.

Laurie Graham  19:13 
Yeah, it's true, and people like to feel significant. I think the other thing about you mentioning bringing lemon bars or greeting is that sometimes I see us in churches limit who is working with us because they don't want to be on the "team." Like, we say, "Do you want to be on the women's ministry team?" Most people don't; maybe they've had bad experiences or they don't have enough time, but they totally would show up and bring you lemon bars. I think sometimes we minimize that—as if you can't be on the team, then there's no place for you. In youth ministry, we used to call it the "SWAT team": Serving Willingly, Although Temporarily.

Laurie Graham  19:54 
And I always had—I knew—I knew which grandpa would build me a badminton net in a night; they were never going to be on the youth ministry team, but they were always willing to serve willingly, although temporarily. I think utilizing that is exactly what you just gave an example of.

Abigail Doust  20:10 
Oh, I think that's beautiful. The image that comes to my mind is like a dartboard. I think of the center as being my women's team—the people who have said yes to being on leadership, however many people that is—but then I've always got the next tier out and the next tier out. Those people are really important to me, and while their ability to commit in this season of life might be less, their purpose and mission in God's Kingdom is not less. And so as a women's leader, I'm always thinking through that lens and making time for those rings as they go out.

Laurie Graham  20:43 
I love that image, like the target. You know, with the—are they called concentric circles? Is that what they're—is it concentric? The target! You know, like a red and white target, circles going out. And to me, the outer ring is everyone who has ever been touched by or is even in the vicinity of the ministry, because so many times we limit that to people who have said yes or who we think are going to say yes. I think everybody within reach—even so-and-so's granddaughter who showed up once or comes to church on Christmas—is often very willing to serve. And so I think that’s a great way, such a great way to look at that.

Abigail Doust  21:24 
Yeah, it's so good. People just want to belong; they want to matter. Yeah, yeah—and that's another opportunity to do it, yeah.

Laurie Graham  21:31 
So, you've talked about seeing people—people being unseen—and saying, "Let's see people." How do we make peace with the reality that not every event really works for every woman? Like we talked about, we mentioned a tea party and we mentioned an outreach event. Everyone doesn't come to everything. How do you personally make peace with that? Because I think that's just reality, and I think that's okay.

Abigail Doust  21:52 
Yes, it absolutely is. Part of the way to make peace with that is by communicating it to folks, such as, "This is a little bit more for the women who love craft stuff," or, "This is for the women who work during the day, so we're making sure we're offering this other thing." So, some of it is just framing the expectations and reminding people that we want to include this or we want to make space for that. I would say that's a huge part of it for me, and I do embrace the differences. I agree with what you said at the top—that there is a lot more in common than there is difference—but I really do like embracing the differences. To give an example, I was at a very small women's retreat just a few months ago, and they had a Zumba night and all this exercise going on; however, there were some people who couldn't participate because of physical problems or age.

Laurie Graham  22:40 
You just don't want to see me do Zumba.

Abigail Doust  22:43 
You don't want to see me do Zumba either, but that's a whole other story. However, I thought, "What a miss," because you could have had something else going on at that time, but you thought, "Well, we're only this many women; we'll just all do one thing," but then not everyone could do it. It's such an easy thing to just think through: let's be as accommodating as we can without losing it, but also try to think about what people would benefit from. If you are able to have some varied things, and you express that value to the women in your church—where it's like, "We want to do this and we want to include that, and since we can't meet every need in one event, we try to do a few different kinds of gatherings in a year"—then people can join in. But the "seen and heard" thing is perhaps something I'm taking for granted, assuming that everyone knows what I mean by that. It's really common language at Thrive Ministry, which is where I met your daughter, Maggie. We serve cross-cultural workers, but part of the intent is that when you are with someone, you're really listening to what they're saying. Listening is a muscle, so we can all grow in it and make it stronger, but it means showing up and trying to reduce your own bias and your own perception of what's happening—because you have your own personality—and just really trying to hear what they're saying and asking more questions. Ask things like, "What does that mean to you?" or "What does that look like?" Use a lot of "what" or "how" questions instead of closed questions like, "Do you do this?" or "Are you this?" or "Will you do that?" Instead, start your question with "what" or "how." I'll tell you, if you just force the "what" out, the rest of the question will fall into place. When you hold space for someone and they can say a really hard thing, and you're not going to try to fix it or tell them that it's unspiritual for them to feel that way, you are just showing empathy: "I'm sorry that you're going through that. Thank you so much for sharing that with me." That's holding space; that's helping someone feel seen and heard. I’ll tell you, this is my passion, Laurie, and I train people in how to show up like this—how to show up well. I have a class called The Conversation Edge, and it helps people develop an extra skill set to pair with the Holy Spirit. I have one called The Conversation Edge for Ministry, where people can learn how to do this a little bit better if it's not something they have learned or feel comfortable with yet.

Laurie Graham  25:13 
Yeah, and I think that's so good to even mention in this conversation because when we talk about relational ministry—which I do a lot—having conversations and initiating conversations is key. I've done training on empathy, and we kind of think those are just natural, inborn things, but they're not; there is skill in conversation. There's skill in asking and answering questions, and there’s skill in being able to sit in uncomfortable news or conversation without trying to fix it, because most of us leap to that. I think those are foundational ministry skills that many people don't have. When I talk about leaders, I believe all of us are called to influence; so, I believe every single person listening to this podcast—within reach of this podcast, anybody who could possibly hear the podcast, anybody within reach of the people within reach—this is something not just for leaders, but something all of us can grow in. It leads us to the connection that God put us on the planet for...

Abigail Doust  26:24 
Definitely not, definitely not. And I agree it's a skill that we need to learn; we're not born with it. We do learn how to walk pretty easily—my little nephew is only six or seven months old and he already knows how to put things in his mouth and chew on them—but we do not naturally know how to do these skills. We don't know how to grow our own emotional intelligence or how to show up a little bit more open and loving. My husband and I, during COVID—while some people were learning to knit or baking sourdough bread—wrote a book called Authentic Conversations. It really is for the Christian layperson who wants to learn how to do these types of things because I think we're God's "Plan A." I think He intends for us to be the hands and feet of Christ and to love the person right in front of us, and how we handle conversation is a huge way we can do that.

Laurie Graham  27:18 
Yeah, oh, so good. Okay, we're going to make sure to put all your links in the show notes so people can find you. They can find your book; they can find your website. You're going to be speaking at the conference really soon, the last Saturday in January. Can you just share what your topic is about and, yes, kind of who it's for?

Abigail Doust  27:38 
Yes, so this topic is more for local outreach and for missions training you might have. If you're doing an outreach in your community—say you're sharing soup or bagging up supplies like you talked about—along with the practicality and the tangible nature of those bags, you also want to show up with relationship. You want to be an open person; you have to have at least some people on your team who are willing to engage with people and really be the "hands and feet" in that loving way while other people are serving food or bagging items. If you just meet the physical need without the human touch and connection—and I'm not even just talking about evangelism, although evangelism is obviously incredibly important—you miss that warm touch where you help someone feel valued and have the dignity of being a human by engaging with them on a real level. If people want to grow in those skills, this workshop at the summit is going to be a really great way to leave with practical tools.

Laurie Graham  28:51 
Yeah, and you know, one of the things I love that you're talking about in this outreach area—and in so many things that we're covering at the conference, and even some of the things we talked about today—is that this isn't about doing more things. We think that to have more effective ministry, we have to do more things, but we don't; we just need to get more from the things we're already doing. That's one of the things I believe your topic leads right into at the conference: it's not like we have to do more outreach events, but rather, this is how we can get more impact from the things we're already doing. So, I'm excited to hear your upcoming session at the Women's Ministry in Small Churches Conference happening on the last Saturday of January. If y'all are listening and haven't gotten your free ticket yet, go grab it at smallchurchsummits.com. The tickets are live now, and you can get in on some fun pre-conference stuff if you go grab your ticket today. I'm just so delighted you were able to be with us today, Abigail; thank you for taking the time.

Abigail Doust  29:45 
This was a pleasure. Yes, thank you so much for having me.

Laurie Graham  29:49 
All right. Well, wherever you're listening from and wherever you're serving, remember that faithful ministry doesn't have to be heavy. It can be light, it can be fun. It can be relational. It can be being seen, as well as seeing others. So, love you tons. Until next week, be a light.