215: The Digital Ministry Your Small Church Is Already Doing (And How to Do It Better) | with Leslie Kons

Your small church already has a digital ministry - whether you’ve planned for it or not. Through your website, social media, and emails, you’re constantly communicating who you are and what people can expect, sometimes clearly and sometimes unintentionally sending the wrong message. 

In this episode, we talk about why that matters more than we think and how small, thoughtful shifts can help your digital presence reflect your heart, not just your information.

In this episode, we talk about:

1. How churches unintentionally communicate confusion, pressure, or disconnection online
2. Why your digital presence shapes trust long before someone ever visits in person
3. What “digital ministry” actually means for small churches (without adding more work)
4. Simple ways to align your online presence with the experience you want people to have

Connect with Leslie Kons: studiokons.com

Join our free Facebook Community: facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry

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Transcript

Laurie Graham  0:01 
Hey, welcome to the Small Church Ministry Podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I'm your host, Laurie Graham, let's dive in.

Laurie Graham  0:23 
Hey, hey, welcome back to the Small Church Ministry Podcast today. We are talking about something that, believe it or not, your church is already doing, maybe intentionally, maybe great, maybe not so great, maybe not intentionally, but it's already happening, and that's called Digital Ministry. Now that phrase might sound unfamiliar. It might sound sound lofty. We're going to talk about why it's important, and Leslie is here with us to talk about that. And so we're going to have some fun. We're going to talk about websites, social media, emails. Don't freak out if you're into this. If you're not into this, it's all for you. If you're part of your church in any way, really like I think it's important for us to know and understand a little bit more. So Leslie, I want you to introduce yourself to everybody, tell them what you do, like what you do in your small church, and then we'll get into this thing called Digital Ministry.

Leslie Kons  1:15 
This thing called Digital Ministry. Well, hi everybody, and thank you, Laurie, so much for having me on today. I'm just beyond thrilled to be here. So as she said, my name is Leslie Kons. I'm founder of Studio Kons, but before that, I have a long 25 year history as a church musician. I was trained as an organist and choir director, and all of those wonderful, fun things. I've served small churches pretty much my entire career. So I know this world so well, and I really feel so passionate about the magic of small churches and the superpower they have for creating community, for connection, for just loving on each other in like, such a special, beautiful way. So I'm so thrilled to be here and yeah, talking about digital ministry.

Laurie Graham  2:07 
So I'm going to totally interrupt you really quick already, because this, this is what cracks me up the most. So I meet you, and I know that you're doing digital ministry. Okay, most people who are into digital ministry and social media and website development are not organists. Like, as soon as I was, like, you play the organ, you overlay the organ, like, and so for those of you listening in traditional churches, or you know, what some people might call older churches, like, we're not separate from that. Like, I really think sometimes people think this new world and this new digital side is very separate from an older, traditional congregation. And so anyway, by the way, I love the organ. I think they're amazing. I just love that you're an organist. Okay, so you've done organ playing, whatever we call that, and music ministry for a long time, your church right now, you told me, before we came live like it's about 70, give or take on a Sunday, which is a small church. And you also said, this is not the smallest congregation I've served. So we love that here at Small Church Ministry. So everybody can relate to you now. And I do want to ask you, though, talk about digital ministry. How did this become a thing for you? And what is this thing for you?

Leslie Kons  3:24 
Yeah, so for me, I kind of fell into it in a kind of funny way. So I was raised in a very like artistic, expressive household. My parents are both architects, and so like being sort of artsy and having a sense of how things look and feel was always very much part of my upbringing. So from, you know, from my earliest, like, concerts I was doing, I wanted to create, like, really cool concert posters. And so it all kind of started there with sort of graphic design, and over the years, I just did it over and over and over for so long, and it kind of kept growing and growing and growing. And then I think the real shift happened when a lot of shifts happen, right, which is, was when COVID started and, you know, I kind of been dabbling and playing with things, but I, you know, we had a huge need for our online presence to serve a much bigger purpose for our community, and it we needed to no longer be sort of where we put, oh, here's an event, Oh, here's another event come Christmas Eve, but it needed to create connection. And so that, for me, really started this whole journey of like, what can digital tools, what can the online space create for churches, and what new opportunities and broadening opportunities can we all take advantage of, no matter the size of our church? Because it really you don't have to be a big church to take advantage of this at all.

Laurie Graham  4:59 
Yeah, and it doesn't have to be I love the conversations I've had with you. This doesn't have to be complicated. This can be very simple. It can be very doable. And I also would like to just like, let's just state out here that many small churches, well, many churches, in general, don't actually think of their website as ministry, like it's something we set up, or they don't think of their social media as ministry. They think of it as an important function, right? Like a lot of times we'll talk about digital media, we'll talk about website presence, or online presence, but we don't always think of our emails and our social media and our website as ministry. From your perspective, does the word ministry matter. Because for me, words matter a lot, like the way we phrase things, it just to me, it matters a lot. So you're one of the first people that I've heard really talk about digital ministry in the way that you are talking about it. So can you talk about the word ministry and why that matters to you?

Leslie Kons  6:00 
Absolutely. Because for me, it's about intentionality. And so I'm going to hit you with my favorite working definition of digital ministry, which is that digital ministry is how we intentionally use digital tools to help people feel connected to God, to one another, and to the life of the community. And I don't know about you, but if I'm like, Oh, I have to go post on social media today. I'm like, but if I'm like, I'm gonna go connect with people and share something interesting that I hope they'll really love, and I can't wait to hear their feedback, and I can't wait to create conversation or hear what's on their hearts or hear what's on their minds. That's a totally different approach, that it totally changes your own experience of what you're doing in this digital space. And I think, like, I think we've kind of forgotten that social media has the word social in it, and sometimes we tend to like post and it's sort of like shouting into the void versus creating conversation and creating connection. And so it's, it can be, it's, it's a little bit harder, but I think it's just create such so much of a more rewarding, loving experience for everybody on both sides.

Laurie Graham  7:20 
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so what do you think most churches, well, let's say many. Let's say some. What do you think some churches are doing wrong,

Leslie Kons  7:31 
Besides an entire other podcast about this? So I think it's really, you know, it's kind of like the, it's thinking about this for a second. Sorry, but I want to say it's like, it's a it's about our intention, which we've just been talking about, right? That idea of, like, how are we approaching it? But I think it's also sometimes, maybe a lack of clarity, of, like, what is the point of what I'm trying to do today? Because it's important to remember that the online experience for people is actually, it's like a progression. It's a journey. So if you're, for instance, posting an event, I keep harking on these, but posting an event graphic and being like, come to our thing, and then you're not quite getting the feedback or the attendance that you're hoping for. I think we need to back up a little bit or a lot of it, because to me, it's like, say you're like, walking down the street and you see a stranger, and you like, come to my house at four o'clock for coffee, and you just walk by. You just walk by, right? That's kind of what that is, right? So they don't, if they don't know you, they don't have an opportunity to like you. They don't have opportunity to love you, so they're not going to really come and participate. 

To me, the participation is like the last leg of our journey, but sharing who we are and sharing what makes our small church community so special and so vibrant and so exciting and just so special, that should always be the first thing we're doing, and the thing we're spending the most time doing is communicating who we are, because then our air quote, our people, the people who want to be loved by us, who can be best served by us. They're going to find us that way. But if we're sort of saying, Well, here's the thing we're doing that doesn't give me information about, like, what I'm going to find when I get there. So am I really going to leave my house, my cozy house, to when I don't know what's going to happen? Probably not, right?

Laurie Graham  9:38 
Yeah. So that's so interesting. When you talked about and I'm going to go back to what you said, back to what you said earlier about social media, we forget that it's social because, you know, pre, pre, all the social media, we had a church bulletin, and it's almost like we don't expect people to interact with the bulletin. They read the bulletin, they might put it on their fridge and they throw it out, right? We don't expect interaction. It's almost like we've taken a church bulletin and said, Oh, now it's digital. Now that's our website. Our website is the church bulletin, our social media is the church bulletin, and this is what's different, right? Or should be different.

Leslie Kons  10:13 
Yeah and that. But I think the whole thing about the church bulletin is like there's also human interaction happening around it. And when we're not, when we've taken that part away, we just have the like, here's a bulletin board. Yeah, is it really creating what we wanted to create when we're talking about how to invigorate churches, when we're talking about how to grow our churches, that's not going to really help us do what we're aiming to do. And so then we kind of create this spiral where it's like, well, I put all this time into posting this thing, and nobody responded, nobody liked it, nobody came or nobody came from that. And then you feel really downtrodden, and then you don't want to try again, which makes perfect sense, because it's really discouraging to put a lot of time and effort and love into creating something, and so it just creates this kind of spiral. 

You know, in in traditional marketing. they talk about the funnel, and the whole point is that they have to, anyone who interacts with you has to go through this journey. And so if we're not introducing them, they don't even know who we are. If they're not aware of who we are, then it's problematic. And then I would also say, on top of that is that we do have kind of, like an outdated website problem I come across a lot, which is, you know, it's it, like you said, if people want to, I think we're saying this before we started recording, people want to set it and forget it. Yeah, I love that. And I well, you don't love that. Well, I love that. No, we don't love that. No, but I do love the phrase made me laugh, I will say, and I think it's that idea that our websites are the same way. They're that ministry. And if we can't, you know if a if us, if a person who's searching comes to your website, how are they going to know who you are? Are they going to know what you care about? Are they going to know what they're going to experience when they come and visit you, either in person or online? And so that sense of authenticity, that sense of, for lack of a better word, branding, is so important to share who you are and don't. And I think it's also really important to like, not be shy about who you are, you know, because it's like, every community is so special and so and really quite different, and it's so exciting to share that with people and not feel like, Oh, well, I need to speak a certain way or be a certain way that isn't authentic to you.

Laurie Graham  12:45 
Yeah, to attract the other people. Whereas when we're ourselves, we actually attract more people than when we are pretending we're something else or being something for somebody else. You know, one thing that I hear a lot is that, oh, our church has an outdated website. We're not really into social media. We're not, you know, we have a Facebook page, but we don't really use it, so they think they're not doing digital ministry. Can I just say you are like, every single church has a digital presence. It might be really bad, yes, but you're still communicating. Because people do find Facebook pages. Like when I meet people, even in our community, I right away I look up their church. And when I met you, Leslie, I looked up your church, and I found your cute little website. And it's like the picture perfect, quintessential white little church, like in the New England. Like, I mean, it's so pretty, and, you know, the beautiful blue sky behind it, like, you know, but I look that, and I'm just telling you, most churches I look up the Facebook pages are terrible and out of date, and they don't need to be, and the websites like, really, they're very out of date. And this isn't just small churches, I think midsize and some large churches also have that issue, but more small churches for sure. But a lot of people in the churches, we hear words like algorithms and branding and SEO, and we shut down. Like, whether it's the pastor trying to run it, or, you know, an elder or a well-meaning volunteer, like, we start getting into that. And what would you say to the church volunteer or leader who thinks we're too small or we're too old or we're too busy or we're too whatever for this to matter?

Leslie Kons  14:23 
Yeah, that's such a great question. I think it matters, whether you want it to or not, is the first thing. And I would say, you know, anytime I work with any church, it's about what is realistic like, not what do hope it is, but what is realistic that you can keep up with, because it is. It takes tending, it takes maintaining. And so the very most that you can do regularly is what you should be doing. Because I would rather you have a single homepage that is up to date. And then have the most complex. Every ministry has its own page, and all those pages are a year or two out of date. Because I think you know what people would see when they come to speaking about a website specifically they want. They'll go the homepage. They'll see if there's like a new 'new here' page. And then they go, and they look at the staff, they go and look at the clergy or the pastor or the leadership team, and they want to see the people. They want to see, like, who am I getting?  No, def, no. Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up.

Laurie Graham  15:35 
Wait, there was a phase in church websites, and honestly, just websites in general, where stock photos were, what it all was. And then you start seeing the same stock photo everywhere, and you're like, Oh, if you don't know what a stock photo is, by the way, if you're listening, it's just a photo you can get off the internet. There's a lot of free sites or paid sites where you can use a photo that's not your people. So that's what we're saying, you know, not to use those. But you know, one thing, Leslie, that you've talked with me about, oftentimes, when we think we need to do something more in social media or we need to do our website, we look at tools, we look at what we can afford, we look at the strategies. But before that, there's a mindset shift that we skip sometimes, like we literally skip it, and we go into the tools, and we go into how do we build this, and what do we do? And what would you say is foundational with how we feel or think, or, I mean, any kind of mindset, things you can think of before we start building the website. What's important?

Leslie Kons  16:32 
I love that. I think it's about, it's about figuring out, like thinking really deeply about who you are as a community, getting really excited about what you want to share and what you love. I love this exercise because I think it's always so much fun, because you see people really light up about the things that they love about their community, right? Like, what's your favorite thing? Because you go, you love it. You care so deeply so share that. Isn't that a great story to tell, to really have that, that sense of like I am sharing something that's really special to me, and I want to share this special thing with you, so it's not sitting down and being like, oh, what should I post today? It's like, what can I share that's so special about this place that I love, and I think that, to me, is really important. And I would also just say, like, there's, you know, there's a lot of places you can go and get graphics. I think those are great. You know, I do some of that in my work too, but it's like, to me, the most important thing is, it's not about being impressive. It's really just about being like, super intentional, super authentic to who you are. And I just, I want to name something really quickly, because I struggled with this for a long time, which was I struggled with because I've always been a Director of Music, right? I am not, didn't go to seminary. I'm not clergy. I'm not a pastor. I really struggle with the idea that words I was writing was going on the church's like, under the church's identity. And I want to name that, because I feel like some of I feel like that's one of those, like, roadblocks or hiccups that people don't really talk about, but you sit there and you're like, Oh, but what if I say the wrong thing, or what if I, like, stumble or do something silly or weird? And it's, you know, I think it's to me, it's really about you are also part of that community. You are part of what makes that community special. And so finding that sense of confidence, really, to write something, even if it's just like a little blurb, it took me a long time, actually, to find the confidence to do that, because I would kind of get really, I would procrastinate a lot because I felt like, if I couldn't do it perfectly, then like, why try? And I had to really, really let that go.

Laurie Graham  19:03 
I love that you brought that up, because we do. I mean, so scared all the time to say something wrong, or to produce the wrong thing, or to know that you're going to be held to this, or it's going out forever, you know, like it feels like it's going out to the world and in a way, it is. And I think that is one thing that almost like a mental roadblock. You know, Leslie and I, before we came live, before I hit record, I said, What is the point of today? Because we've got 25 minutes, like, how much can we get out in 25 to 30 minutes? And both of us, Leslie and I both said, we're like, we just want people to be excited, like, a mindset shift, that, if you're listening, we want you to like, see the potential and be excited. It's not about all the steps. It's not about having that done. And I do want to mention, we're not done with the podcast yet. We're still going to talk more, but Leslie has a podcast called Digital Ministry Made Easy, and if you want more, so I'm just going to read you a few of the titles of the recent episodes, because this is the thing, right? You're going to listen for 20 minutes, and you'll be like, well, now what do I do? Okay, what you're going to do is you're going to go to her, her other podcast, and listen to these. Is Your Church Website Costing Your Christmas Eve Visitors. What like? What is that? How to Make Your Church Instantly Recognizable Online, A Better Way To Promote Church Events, How To Sound Like Your Church, Not Every Other One Online. So these topics are in Leslie's podcast. Leslie did not know I was just going to promote her podcast. By the way, her eyes are like, I don't know you're going to do this, but what they're saying is, yeah, but this is where, like, it's not a one and done. It's like, get excited about this ministry and learn about it, right? And this is where our churches are not just one person. And I promise you, if you are the strung out volunteer who's doing all the things and spinning all the plates, this episode isn't even for you.

Laurie Graham  20:57 
This is for you to find somebody in your church who could get excited about this, and who would pour into Leslie's other podcast to go deeper? Because if you're already running the women's ministry and the choir and playing the organ and doing the Kids Min, and you're, you know, in charge of this and that and other. This isn't for you. This job isn't for you. But this is the whole like, it takes a village, like many hands make light work, and this is where we go. Who would be excited about this? So it's not just one more thing, okay, Leslie, I just went off in a tangent there. Bring us back.

Leslie Kons  21:29 
I love it. Well, I there's actually a couple things there I want to mention, because your idea of many hands light work. Because I actually, I talked to when I was like, first sort of building out Studio Kons. I was talking to some, some of our colleagues in the church world, and I had someone say, you know, I just want, can you just do it for me? Can you just do the social media for me? Can you do all this for me? And I said, I can't speak to your community in the way that you can speak to your community, like it's not going to sound authentic. It's going to sound like you hired somebody outside to do it, no matter how well I know church culture, which I know it real well, yeah, but it's not going to be yours, you know, and so, and I think, you know, it's funny, because also, in this process of getting things off the ground, I've been looking at, you know, I listened to your, your business podcast with Becky about SEO, and I was thinking about, like, hey, how do I, how do I fine-tune what I'm doing? I loved it. It was such a great episode. And I, you know, I get caught in this thing of like, okay, well, what do I call it? Because Digital Ministry, as we said at the top of this podcast episode is not particularly common, but I tend to bristle when people when people call it, oh, it's Church Communications. And that's no dig on Church Communications, but to me, what we're talking about is so much bigger, for lack of a better word, it's got so many more layers. There's so much more potential, because it's like, as I said at the beginning, anytime we use digital tools and an intentional way to connect with people, that is Digital Ministry. So it could look like a lot of different things, right? It could look like our church website, where all the information we need is right at the top. That is an act of love for our visitors. It's a person actually replying to a social media message that comes through, so friendly reminder to make sure you check your inbox, saying out loud in worship that you're welcoming those who are joining you online on your livestream, like encouraging and bringing them into the conversation. They are a important part of your worshiping community, right? Noticing if somebody hasn't logged into your livestream been home for a long time, it's having that like 'new here' page on your website, it's creating a Prayer Wall, perhaps on your website, it's that Online Bible Study you do, or you know, do you see, there's so many ways that we can engage in ministry through these digital tools that, to me, like communications, doesn't quite encapsulate all of what I'm hoping that we can embrace, that these digital tools could do. Because I'm like, you know, I'm a big nerd. I love tools, I love gadgets, I love software. I'm very strange, but I feel like they can do such cool things. And I feel like also, in the past, you know, five years, because of so much, becoming online for churches. The tools we have now make it so much easier than it was, because it was really hard, and it was really hard. And so I wanted also to say, like, if you tried to do stuff even five years ago, you know, give it another go. You know, if you need to bring in somebody to help you, that's absolutely fine. But I think it's also about just, you know, it's that initial kind of hurdle of, like, you have to be a little bit brave. There's, there's courage in taking on something new and maybe learning a new software. If you haven't learned Canva yet, you know, it's probably time. But that can take some courage. It takes courage to learn something new. And I, you know, I think that's important to say too.

Laurie Graham  25:24 
And I want to say, like, the age thing is not I think we get stereotypical with age thing, and we think older people can't do this, and younger people can, or we think younger people aren't responsible enough. And you know what I mean, older people learning curve. Like, I think we got to get the age stereotype out, because I know some people in their 70s who are so much more techie than I am, like, I'm in my fifties, and I'm telling you, like, but I also want to suggest that there are a lot of younger people connected to your congregation, whether they are actively coming or somebody's grandchild or son or daughter or whatever, like, who literally have built websites like, I mean, so with the tools these days, things are very fast, like, you don't need. Like, I love that you even had a podcast episode on your other podcast that talked about refreshing your church website without rebuilding it. Like, so often we have an old website, we're like, we think we have to rebuild it. And then you start looking into consultant fees, and you're like, I don't have that much money. You all, it is not as complicated and and that's why I really want you all to meet Leslie here, because she literally is talking about Digital Ministry Made Easy, and taking these elements. And I really want, I really want people to hear that this isn't one more job for you if you're doing too many things, this is a podcast episode you need to share with people and say who might be excited. Like Leslie's getting all excited. You can hear her smile through her voice, like I hear it when you're speaking. Who would be excited to really consider this as a ministry? So cool.

Leslie Kons  27:03 
I love that. I love that so much. And for me, it's really about taking the pieces as you can do them, and just letting the rest go. Yeah, until you want to, or you're ready to, or maybe you never are. But that doesn't mean we can't take little baby steps, take little bites of the elephant, as they say, right? Yeah, and create something really special. Because I think that's another thing that happens. I could talk about this for hours, so you just tell me when you want to be done. But it's, I think churches will sometimes be like, Oh, we have to focus on x, y, z, and then they go full tilt in that direction at 100 miles an hour, and put so much care and so much love in, and then they burn themselves out in, yeah, two months, three months, six months. And so you see these like flurry of social media posts that are all beautiful, and someone worked really hard on them, but they're from like, a year ago or six months ago, because someone was like, Well, that was exhausting, and I can't keep that pace too much. Yeah, it's too much. And so for me, it's all about getting, I've heard this phrase recently, and I'm obsessed with it, 'getting the whelm' right? Oh, so you're overwhelmed or underwhelmed, you're getting the well, right? And so it's really about, like, if posting once a week works, do it well, do it well, even if it's every other week, that is better than, like, five in a week and then silence, I think, isn't as like, one little shift you could make in thinking about it in terms of, we were talking about mindset. Yeah, it's, you know, we don't have to be this full-fledged. And we're not going to look like here. Here's a big thing for our Small Church friends. We're not going to look like the big churches that have the full because here's the thing, they have a full time person doing this who has training in marketing, training in graphic design and all those wonderful things, and that's fantastic. We don't have that.

Laurie Graham  29:13 
And there's a lot of people not looking for that, like more and more people are looking for homegrown community, relatable. They're not looking for slick. They're not looking for big organizations. A lot of people are burnt out of that. And I think when we own who we are, it's it's better anyway. Let me just ask. You know, as we kind of get close to wrapping up, if there's a church listening that just wants to take one meaningful step, like you talked about not getting overwhelmed, not overhauling everything. Where would you start for one meaningful step, and why?

Leslie Kons  29:46 
I love that I would start, if we're talking about website, I would start above the fold, as it were. So when you open your website, just that first section of the screen that you see, does it give Service Time? Does it give location enough information about location. You don't have to put the whole address right at the top. But does it give Service Time? And does it give a sense of who you are in some little way? So I would start there on social media. I would check your bios and make sure that they are what you want to express about yourself, and honestly, doing those two things probably shouldn't take you more than an hour, but those do big heavy lifting is that first section of your website and then your bios on either you know, if you're on Instagram or Facebook or what have you, but that, when someone finds you for the first time, what are you saying intentionally or unintentionally? Like you were saying a little bit while ago. Laurie, like, what are we accidentally saying? Because we've maybe left it alone for too long.

Laurie Graham  30:50 
Yeah, yeah. You know, digital media is not about perfection ever. You know, we've kind of hit on that a couple times, like, we get ourselves so scared or stressed out sometimes about what's there and what's not and what would be perfect. It's not about perfection. It's about intention. And your website, your emails, even we didn't talk about that, your social media, they're already telling a story, and I think our opportunity is to make sure that that story actually reflects who we are, like our church's heart. It doesn't have to be polished. It doesn't have to be impressive. It really doesn't, if we're honest and clear, and I'll just say kind of human, like, we're who we are. We're not robots. We're not, you know, we're people. Like, if we could do that, and just, I guess I'll say the word authentic, like, be who we are and promote, promote that, like, who we really are, and be excited about it. You know, it's funny, Leslie, as you're talking, I You can always tell when people are smiling when they're talking. And, you know, I used to do choir and vocal stuff, and I'd be like, you can hear it. Like, close your eyes. You can tell when people are smiling, when they're singing, or when they're talking. And I think it also reflects in our digital media, like you can tell when somebody is happy and excited about Digital Ministry, website, social, and you can tell when they're just doing it to get it up, you know what I mean. And so could we find those people who who could be excited again, we're not talking about putting one more thing on your plate, but I do want to make sure you have a resource you can go to to learn more, to go through some steps. And Leslie, if they want to hear more from you or more about you, we will definitely drop the link for your podcast below. But do you want to tell them a little bit about that, and maybe about your website? And we'll make sure that's in the notes as well.

Leslie Kons  32:33 
Sure, absolutely. So you guys can find me at studiocons.com, K O, N, S, it's my last name. And there you can find the different things that I'm building out to try to support you guys in what you're doing. Make it feel doable, make it feel easy, and just be a real partner for you as you're sharing your heart and your story online and inviting others in.

Laurie Graham  32:56 
Awesome and your podcast is called, what and where can they listen to that one?

Leslie Kons  33:00 
It's called Digital Ministry Made Easy. You can get it wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Laurie Graham  33:06 
That was great. Okay, so everybody, wherever you're listening from, just remember, you don't have to overhaul everything. You don't need to do a whole rebrand. You don't necessarily even need to do more. Leslie talked about sustainable, she talked about easy steps. And also, I'm just going to say this, you don't have to do it alone. Like we're here for you. Come join our free Facebook community, Creative Solutions for Small Churches. We are linking people to, you know, churches who are doing just great things all over the place and individuals, and we're just, we're in this together. I love thinking of small churches all over the globe as these little, tiny dots of influence. But we're not alone, like we're connected, like this beautiful network. So Leslie, thank you for being here with us.

Leslie Kons  33:50 
Oh, it was absolutely my pleasure. This was so much fun.

Laurie Graham  33:53 
Yeah, so great. I'm sure we will be hearing more from you, and thanks for just doing what you can to help support small churches all over the place. So, so awesome. All right, everybody until next week, be a light.