236: How to Make Your Small Church Matter in the Community

What if the future of your church isn't determined by how many people attend on Sunday, but by the difference you make the rest of the week? 

In this episode, Pastor Raymond Cabello shares how his church shifted from focusing inward to becoming a trusted, active presence in its community. 

You'll hear practical ideas for building partnerships, serving with limited resources, and helping your small church make a bigger impact right where God has placed it.

In this episode:

➡️ Why serving your community starts with a mindset shift

➡️ How to build meaningful partnerships with schools, nonprofits, businesses, and other churches

➡️ Practical ways to make a big impact with a small budget and a small congregation

➡️ How opening your church beyond Sunday can strengthen your community presence

➡️ Encouragement for pastors leading churches that feel small, stuck, or overlooked

CONNECT WITH PASTOR RAYMOND CABELLO

crosskeysbaptistchurch.org
facebook.com/CrossKeysBC
instagram.com/crosskeys
youtube.com/@crosskeysbc
tiktok.com/@pastor_ray

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Transcript

236: How to Make Your Small Church Matter in the Community

​[00:00:00] Laurie Graham Ertl: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Small Church Ministry podcast. A lot of small church pastors look around and wonder, "Can we really make a difference with this?" A small budget, a small congregation, maybe a building that's mostly empty during the week, and bigger churches down the road, that feeling of competition. And I know wherever you're listening from, you're probably not even the pastor. So many of our listeners are laypeople, the core volunteers, the person serving in Children's ministry, and this episode is still for you, okay? 

We are interviewing a pastor today that I just met last week, and I'm so excited to talk to him because of what's happening in his church, but this episode is for everybody. It is [00:01:00] really easy for people in small churches to believe that if we only had more people or more money or more resources, then, if, then, right? If we had more, we could really make an impact. But what if that's not the problem? So today's guest has spent the last four years helping lead a church that was declining and really asking some different questions, looking at it from a different perspective. Instead of focusing first on growing attendance, they focused on becoming a church that their community actually needed.

So we're gonna jump in today. Join me in welcoming Pastor Ray Cabello, the pastor of Cross Keys Baptist Church in the St. Louis area. Pastor Ray, thank you for being here. Was my, how did my introduction sound? Is that like introducing what we're talking about today to you and what's on your heart.

Raymond Cabello: Yeah. That's, that's great. Yeah.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Okay, cool.

Raymond Cabello: Awesome. It's, yeah, it's an honor to be here with you today, Laurie.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah, I'm so excited that you had the time to jump on with me today. But, so let's talk about the reality, like, when you arrived at your [00:02:00] church, 'cause you have a, such a cool story, the mindset shift, some of the things you're doing that are unique, and how we can help people who are listening right now. So let's talk about when you arrived four years ago.

Raymond Cabello: Yeah.

Laurie Graham Ertl: When you arrived four years ago, what did you inherit,

Raymond Cabello: Okay.

Laurie Graham Ertl: And what was your church facing?

Raymond Cabello: So I inherited a legacy church, right? These are churches that are established for many, many years. We actually, this year we celebrated 60 years of ministry. So, there was a lot of history before I came to Cross Keys. And what we've seen, you know, just looking at numbers and different things, that drastic decline that a lot of our churches in more suburban, urban areas, face, you know, since 2008, right? So we've seen a lot. The community shift drastically. So I inherited not only a church that was, was a little bit stuck where they were, but also,

Laurie Graham Ertl: Wait, a church being stuck? No way.

Raymond Cabello: Right. But also a church that didn't know there was a problem.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: You know, many [00:03:00] times our legacy churches do not know that something's not working. So I inherited that. You know, of course other issues behind the scenes, leadership, you know, people who mean well but are not qualified to be in the positions that they're currently in. So you see a lot of those things that take place in a lot of our legacy churches. And a lot of that I inherited. You know, a church that was struggling to meet budget, a church that was struggling, to really reach their community in meaningful and impactful ways.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. You know, when you talk about the decline of attendance in urban and suburban areas, like, I mean, that's rural too. Like, it's everywhere these days.

Raymond Cabello: Yeah.

Laurie Graham Ertl: It is. And, the fact that you went to 2008, since 2008, since most people are really blaming COVID on everything these days.

Raymond Cabello: Mm-hmm.

Laurie Graham Ertl: back.

Raymond Cabello: Right. Right. Right

Laurie Graham Ertl: But really, the decline of churches, and not just small churches, but larger churches as well, has been for decades now.

So what do you think struggling small churches, often misdiagnose, like, as their biggest problem? Like, coming into a small church and you feel like you're [00:04:00] struggling, and you think, "This is what we gotta fix."

Raymond Cabello: I personally, I think that the biggest misdiagnosis within our churches is the community. I've been in a lot of churches where, well, if the community wanted to be here, they would be here.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: So we kind of put the blame in other places instead of really looking at what's not working here. Especially if the community changes, the church should really be changing with it. We don't change the message, we don't change the gospel, we don't change Scripture, but we may be, you know, proclaiming the gospel in a different way. You know, one thing, that I learned from a good friend of mine, here in St. Louis was, you know, if somebody is worrying about, physical needs, they don't care about their soul. So if you're ministering in hard places and the community changed in that way and it wasn't like that before, you sometimes have to minister to that physical man before you minister to the spiritual man.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: So, so many times our churches [00:05:00] will, you know, blame external forces.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: Instead of really looking at, well, maybe I'm the problem.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. Okay, so I love what you're saying because there is so much blame on our culture these days. Like,

Raymond Cabello: Mm-hmm.

Laurie Graham Ertl: People don't care about church, blah, blah, blah, and

Raymond Cabello: Right. Right.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Whether it's true or not, like, focus on that as our biggest issue.

Raymond Cabello: Mm-hmm.

Laurie Graham Ertl: It's not helpful. Like, it's just not helpful.

Raymond Cabello: Right.

Laurie Graham Ertl: And it almost creates an 'us and them' kind of a version.

So I'm so happy to have you here. So what had to change? Like, where was the light bulb that went off of, "Okay, we gotta do this"?

Raymond Cabello: Right. So I came into a church that was without a pastor for almost three years.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Oh, so tough. And I will just say tons of churches in our, in our community right now, like listening, are in the same place. They're in big transition areas. They've got transition teams. They're working on, you know, getting in the temporary pastors, and so, so that is a huge [00:06:00] thing.

Raymond Cabello: Yeah. So we really had to, you know, do a lot of intentional teaching and preaching, on things that really mattered. You know, people, if you're going into a church that, has not had consistent leadership, had not had strong leadership or any leadership whatsoever, you really have to preach and teach on what does a healthy church look like? You know, so we had to do a lot of intentional things. Instead of, like, the seven ways to change your life, we did a lot more, you know, we're facing str- ... My first sermon series here at Cross Keys was overcoming the giants in our lives.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: Right? To kind of set a foundation of we're all going through something.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: And in those somethings, we have to know that God is bigger than anything else we can face.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: And once people figure that out, you can start saying, "Okay, yeah, what does our church look like now? What does Paul say about a healthy church in 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus?" We went through all the pastoral letters. We went through James. We went through Colossians. You know, all these, , sermon [00:07:00] series that really hone in on what is a church supposed to be doing? What is a Christian supposed to be doing? So my advice always is be intentional in what you are preaching and teaching, and that will help change that culture within your church.

Laurie Graham Ertl: So one of the mindset things I hear you saying that a lot of churches in your situation don't always do, it sounds like you focused on the people who were there, first off, not on, "We need to get more people in the building." Because there is,

Raymond Cabello: Right.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Such a shift of, "We need to get more people in the building." And before we go too far, I don't like to talk numbers too much, but a lot of times when I have guests on the podcast, people think, "Oh, he must be in a church that's, you know, 150," or, "She must be in a church that's 200." So can we just talk real numbers and what you were facing?

Raymond Cabello: Right.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Because a lot of churches are in decline right now would be like, "Yeah, but you don't know what it's like to not know if you're gonna pay the bills next week," right?

Raymond Cabello: [00:08:00] Yes.

Laurie Graham Ertl: So tell them, because you've got a good story.

Raymond Cabello: Yeah. So, when I started at Cross Keys, we were running about 52 on a Sunday.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: In a sanctuary that can hold almost 400 people. And then within the first six months, we dropped down to 23.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Which is,

Raymond Cabello: We faced a lot.

Laurie Graham Ertl: By the way, not unusual with a new pastor. Like, oftentimes,

Raymond Cabello: Right. Right.

Laurie Graham Ertl: That happens when a new pastor comes in. So you went to 23.

Raymond Cabello: Mm-hmm. 23 people. In fact, the first Sunday in 2023 was 19 people.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm. Wow.

Raymond Cabello: Yeah. It was...

Laurie Graham Ertl: What did it do to your heart or your mind? Like, where were you at?

Raymond Cabello: I was scared.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. Okay.

Raymond Cabello: I was scared. Many times when you see those shifts and those changes, you think, "Am I doing this right?"

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: Because I've made a lot of people upset.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: And you know, it's that kind of thing of I had to be very honest with the church. I don't know what's [00:09:00] happening. One, I don't know what I'm doing.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: You know, I have no seminary training, no. I have experience in churches and all different aspects of different ministries, worship, Youth ministry, et cetera. But I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just doing what God is telling me to do. So we dropped down to 23 people. We had a lot of unknowns. You know, we were operating at a deficit, and now, you know, two years later, three years later, we are at, I think the, the average right now is, like, 59 on a Sunday is our average. So our church has grown since that, since then. But you know, 2024 or 2025, we're like, "We don't know what the budget's gonna look like.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: We don't know if we're gonna meet this." You know, we were operating, when I first got there, we were operating at like a $80,000 deficit. Then we dropped that down to, like, 40 to 60.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: Then last year, you know, our deficit was, like, 30,000. [00:10:00] And we're like, "Okay, God, something has to happen." Like, we're spending bare bone basics on certain things. You know, we buy the one-ply toilet paper instead of the two-ply toilet paper.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Uh-huh.

Raymond Cabello: You know, we bring things in-house instead of, you know, outsourcing things. So we had to do a lot of things to, to kind of, you know, meet in the middle with our budget.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: Yeah, our church is not a large church.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: We don't, you know... we're not flashy. We don't have all the cool tech or anything. We are a small church or, or in the SBC world, they're now called normative size churches.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: Because say, you know, the majority of our churches, at least the SBC churches, are under 100 people.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: So.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: Yeah. So we are a certified small church.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Well, thank you for sharing, like, your real... Like, I love that you said, "I was scared," because I know there are a lot of people who can identify with that. And, you know, I just have to ask just really quick, 'cause I didn't know. You didn't know what you were doing. How [00:11:00] did you end up the pastor of this church?

And then we're,

Raymond Cabello: Ah.

Laurie Graham Ertl: And we're gonna focus on all the community stuff, so keep it kinda short, but, like, that just came out, so.

Raymond Cabello: Okay.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Okay. So tell me how you became a pastor.

Raymond Cabello: So, so long story short, I have been in ministry for, for many, many years. You know, my first job within a church, my first ministry position was audiovisual in my home church in California.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Okay.

Raymond Cabello: Our pastor back, back then was very intentional on allowing the young people to lead and to do what God has called them to do. So I've been in ministry a very long time. You know, I was licensed in 2013, ordained in 2015, serving at different churches as associate pastor, worship leader, different things, youth ministry. And then we actually started, a house church, in our home in Maryland Heights here in Missouri. And, you know, we just started. We're probably about six months old, and things are going well. And then my friend Sam, who's the worship leader here at Cross [00:12:00] Keys, we went to college together, he... You know, we were-- We have a tradition where I would go and play viola, 'cause I'm a string musician, viola at whatever church he was.

Laurie Graham Ertl: The most interesting people. I just love this. Okay, keep going.

Raymond Cabello: Yeah, sorry.

Laurie Graham Ertl: A viola playing pastor.

Raymond Cabello: Viola player. Yeah. So we would, play Christmas Eve together at whatever church he was at. That was our tradition for years. And I, and I joked, I'm like, "Hey, you know, I might as well throw my resume in the ring," you know.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: As a complete joke. And, Sam, he's so in tune with God, and he said, "Hey, c- can I sit down with you and Emma, my wife?" I'm like, okay, maybe he's gonna tell me something, that he's getting married or something, I don't know. And he comes to our house. He says, "Hey, I, I feel like you should submit your resume." And I'm thinking in my brain, "Are you crazy? Like, we just started this church plant. Things are going well. We're reaching the community, all these different things." I don't know. So I talked to our leadership team. You know, I told them, "We'll, we'll, we'll pray about [00:13:00] it. We'll figure it out." Talked to the leadership team, and our leadership team was like, "We should pursue this and see what the Lord has." I'm like, "Okay, if you guys are in agreeance, we're gonna move forward." And I submit my resume, and nothing. Crickets. I'm thinking, "I didn't get it. It's no big deal." And then I get an email saying, "Yeah, it's Christmas time, so we're, we're, we're kind of putting it on pause until the new year." Great, no problem. Then I get an interview. Okay, great. Okay. And then go, go through the whole process like, "Hey, we wanna call you as our pastor." I'm like, "You guys know, you know, I'm, I'm very unorthodox, I'm very different, all these different things." And they're like, "Yeah, we wanna call you as your as our next pastor." Okay. And that's how I ended up at Cross Keys. It was just, you know, a joke that led to a meeting that led to us seeking the Lord, and then our church plant basically dissolved and merged into Cross Keys.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Wow. Wow. And your church now, from, from our short conversations we've had so [00:14:00] far, looks very different today than it did four years ago.

Raymond Cabello: Mm-hmm. Definitely.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Can you talk about what looks different?

Raymond Cabello: The biggest thing is the people. When I got to Cross Keys, we were... The median age was 75 years old.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: We are now, median age is about 55.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: So we have gotten younger, which is good. We have kids running around again. We are very community minded. So, our vision is we are kingdom focused, community minded. We love the Lord our God with our mind, heart, soul, and strength. We love our neighbor as ourselves, and we seek the Kingdom first in all things. That is what drives everything that we do. If we can check those boxes of this is gonna bring somebody closer to God, it's going to, to honor God, it's gonna glorify him, it's gonna build the Kingdom, it's gonna serve the community, we're gonna go ahead and do it. And really, the people are different. You know, there's life in the church again. You feel the spirit moving. There's a [00:15:00] welcoming spirit within the building now. We're seeing, you know, new salvations. Last year we had 21 children and teens give their life to Christ during Vacation Bible School. Their, you know, true salvations, it's been zero for quite some time. You know? Baptisms, the baptismal waters are stirred again, right? A lot of changes happened, and a lot of it was, was forced. You know? We had to have those hard conversations of something has to change.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: If not, we won't be here in seven years.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: You know? And, as pastors and church leaders, we have to be willing to have those, those tough conversations, but do it in a way that is respectful and loving, right? And not trash people. You know, sometimes we get in the habit of saying, "Well, the old leadership did this, the old leadership did that, and, and that's why we're in the boat."

Like, no, you know, things happen. Nobody's perfect.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: You know? We're all gonna make mistakes. You know, I, I tell the church, "Look, look, look, [00:16:00] look. I'm, I'm the first one to say, look, I don't know what I'm doing, half the time. And I'm just following what God me to do, and if I fail, guess what? I'm gonna ask for your forgiveness, and we're gonna move forward, and we're gonna change things that, that absolutely need to be changed."

Laurie Graham Ertl: Now, this podcast is titled How to Make Your Small Church Matter in the Community. Let's talk about that. How have you made your small church matter in the community? Let's get specific. Programs, buildings, outreaches.

Raymond Cabello: Yeah, yeah.

Laurie Graham Ertl: What has made the difference there?

Raymond Cabello: So when I first started at Cross Keys, our church was used on Sunday morning, of course, right? Bible study and worship. It was used on a Wednesday night for one hour for prayer meeting, and it was used on a Friday night for, a sowing, like, group, and that was it. It was closed the rest of the time. We had an office admin that was there twice a week. It was bare bone basics for a while. And now the church is used pretty much seven days a [00:17:00] week. There's always something happening in the church. So of course, you have church on Sunday morning. Great. We have donuts and coffee for free in the church. At 8:45, we have Bible study for all ages, from babies all the way up to senior adults. We have worship at 10:30. Then after we leave, we have another church that rents our building from us. Then from Monday to Friday, we have a Christian school that rents our building from us, our lower level. We have a gospel choir that uses the sanctuary on Monday nights for rehearsals. We have an ESL class that meets on Tuesday nights. We have parenting classes, through a a life-affirming pregnancy help center, that meets on Thursday nights. We have Bible study and prayer meeting and different things on Wednesday nights. Saturdays there's things always happening here, whether it's a conference or a workshop or a community group using the building. It's being used 24... like, like seven days a week now. It's really cool.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm. Now that sounds exhausting for people who aren't used to that, and they're thinking, okay, I can just picture some people [00:18:00] thinking, how in the world do you run that? Like, that seems like a lot. But a lot of these groups are not your church, right? These are,

Raymond Cabello: Correct.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Partnerships, or they're just renting your building. If they're using your building, how does that make a difference in the community? Like, I'm just... Like, is it putting you on the map? Are people getting to know you? How do you see that, like, strengthening your church?

Raymond Cabello: All the above. You know, people know where Cross Keys is now. When I first started, you know, you know, I would be in the grocery store, they'll see my Cross Keys shirt and say, "Well, where is that?" I said, "Well, it's, on Newhouse Ferry in Lindbergh in," you know, literally right around the corner from where we are now, right? And they're like, "I don't know where that is. I've never seen that church." "We're bu- we're across the street from the old Kmart." "Oh, that building. We didn't know there was a church still there."

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: Scary. That, that is like, what do you mean you didn't know there was a church there? So you know, that was heartbreaking, but, but people know where we are, who we are, you know, because we are there. You know, we're not just there to [00:19:00] say, "Hey, you're going to hell. Here's Jesus."

Laurie Graham Ertl: Right.

Raymond Cabello: You know, we don't judge people, right? Right. We want this to be a welcoming place for all people to come and find and meet Jesus where they are, and He'll take care of the rest.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: So we're very open to saying, "Hey God, this is your building. What you want in this building is exactly what's gonna happen in this building. We will not stand in the way."

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: So people know who we are just by us being a church that is all about wanting people to truly meet Jesus, the Jesus of Scripture, Jesus who is loving, who is compassionate, who is kind, and not a Jesus that we sometimes portray that is unloving and, and bigoted and, and, and hateful to others who, who don't look like us, act like us, talk like us, smell like us, right? So, so we really try to say, "Hey, we are here for you." The church exists to glorify God and to evangelize [00:20:00] others.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm.

Raymond Cabello: So if we are not out there doing the work, people will not know who the church is or what the church is. So for us to say, "Yeah, you can have a funeral here, and we won't charge you a dime."

Oh really. That's different. Or, "Okay, you need somebody to talk to? Come and have coffee with the pastor, or come have a coffee, with the counselor or something. Here's something for you to, to know that you're loved and you're seen and, and you're cared for." You know, so having this building truly being used for God's purposes allows people to see not only the church, you know. Me, I don't care about the 5013C. I don't care about the name. I care about people seeing Jesus.

Raymond Cabello: Cause that's the most important thing. So as long as we are, are proclaiming Christ and truly acting like Him, then we are doing our job. I want people to see Jesus more than they see Cross Keys.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm, [00:21:00] mm-hmm. Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: Which is why we partner.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah, let's talk about your partnerships, because I know in addition to people using your building, you actually partner as a church with some other organizations or schools or nonprofits. How many partnerships would you say you have? And then do you wanna talk about a few of them?

Raymond Cabello: So I do not have a number of those. We have, quite a bit, both locally in our area, as well as across the country, across the world now. So we have partnerships with organizations that... Like, Bridges to Care and Recovery. They actually were able to train one of our ladies in, in wellness ministry or behavior health ministry. Which allowed us to start a behavior health ministry here at the church. We have a partnership, with a lot of our local schools, where we have adopted four schools in our school district. And those schools know that if they have a need, whether it's, Expo markers or paper or, cotton candy and snow cones for a fun day for the kids, they can call us.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Wow.

Raymond Cabello: [00:22:00] We have Partnerships with other churches in our area, that allow us to do these large events that we do. Because again, it's not about our name, it's not about putting butts in a pew, it's about proclaiming Jesus. So we lock arms with other churches from other denominations. You know, we're Southern Baptist, but, you know, we go across denominational lines for the sake of the gospel.

We have partnerships with churches around the country. We have churches that come through the St. Louis Ministry Center here in St. Louis, in Ferguson, that, they, bring mission teams into the area. And a lot of the work that we have had done is because of our partnership with the St. Louis Ministry Center.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Wow.

Raymond Cabello: Here in Ferguson through Send Relief and the North American Mission Board. So they do a lot of the grunt work that we can't do because we're an older church. We have partnerships with churches across the seas. We have started a partnership with, Bethlehem Christian Academy, which provides quality Christian education to, refugees in Africa. They have 11 schools across 10, continents in Africa. So we've sent [00:23:00] mission teams there the past two years creating those partnerships with Canaan Baptist Malawi and Bethlehem Christian Academy Malawi in Dzaleka, refugee camp. We are sending a team to El Salvador to work with church plants and do medical missions.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Okay, now you are of 60 people on a Sunday, or you said 59 people on a Sunday.

Raymond Cabello: Yes .

Laurie Graham Ertl: One of the first things you said to me that stood out so much last week when we met was you said something like, mission is to use the little that we have to make the biggest input, impact." Is that, is that how you said it?

Raymond Cabello: That's how we do it. We have to take what God has given us and be good stewards of that of those things. Not just money, but our buildings, our stuff, our time, and use it for the greatest Kingdom impact. And we and the way we offset a lot of what we do is our partnerships. You know, we have this big back to school event happening, the end of July.

Laurie Graham Ertl: I know, which is why you can't speak at our pastors conference.

Raymond Cabello: Right, right. And this year, well, when we first started this here at [00:24:00] Cross Keys, we had maybe about 150, 200 people. The next year was about 350 to 500 people. Then the next year, 2020, yeah, 2024 was about 300. Last year, '25, had 4,300 people. Because of these intentional partnership with our school district and other churches and other organizations, both secular and religious. We partner with with healthcare agencies, that make sure that people have... are signed up for, for state health insurance for their children and food plans and SNAP and different things. That allows us to, to offset what we do.

This year's Back to School Bash, we have organizations that are just writing checks to say, "We wanna make sure that children have a way to get what they need to go to school next year." So we are very intentional in these strategic partnerships to make sure that, one, they're not one-sided, right? Partnerships is not just gimme, gimme, gimme. It's how can I then [00:25:00] go to you and help? 

But also these partnerships are intentional to make sure that one, we are meeting the needs in our community, but two, we are proclaiming Jesus. Many times, you know, we have to say no to some partnerships, they violate our statement of faith. You know, we are unapologetically Christian. We believe what the Bible says, which means that we are, are unable to partner with certain organizations. And we don't say, "Well, you know, you're a bunch of sinners. We're not gonna partner with you." We say, "Hey, unfortunately, your organization's beliefs violate our statement of faith. So unfortunately, we are unable to partner, at this time." And it's very amicable about that. 

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: Very kind in that way, because again, we don't wanna burn bridges. We don't want people to view us in a negative light. So you know, Scripture says you have to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, sometimes we do have to do some hard things, and we have to partner with the state Medicare, [00:26:00] Medicare plans. We have to partner with churches of not like faith.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: Maybe with the Lutheran Church or like a Disciples of Christ church or something, you know? We have to to figure out, you know, we're all going to the same heaven, which means that we have to figure out how to live here so we can live there.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Well, I just love that you're talking about, like what you're talking about sounds like you are multiplying your impact by partnering with a lot of different types of organizations. You've talked about physical needs, you've talked about schools, you know, socioeconomic type things, and at the same time, you don't have to reinvent the wheel then. Like, I love it, like sometimes churches say, "Oh, we really wanna do this. We don't have the person power. We don't have the funds. We don't have this." You know, or they do invent something, right? And it is draining on them and exhausting, and,

Raymond Cabello: Correct.

Laurie Graham Ertl: You know, the reality is, is there's people around us doing good that aligns with the good that we wanna do, the impact that we [00:27:00] wanna have. You know, and I think what you're talking about with partnerships is really beautiful. If we have, pastors or laypeople listening, thinking about partnerships, and maybe they have some different ideas going off in their heads, like how did you start that? How did you begin building partnerships?

Like, a lot of people, like we've talked about this in other venues before in our community, in our ecosystem for small churches, and it's like they get stuck. You know, maybe it's in the deciding where to partner or how to partner, but it feels more practical than that. So how do you do... How do you begin building these partnerships?

Raymond Cabello: For me it was I as the pastor have to be in the community. I have to go out and do that legwork. So one thing for when we started all these big events is I would take a letter, you know, and a flyer, and I would go to all these local businesses and say, "Hey, I'm the new pastor at Cross Keys Baptist here in Florissant. We're doing this event. You know, we would love [00:28:00] some kind of partnership. Or if you can just hang up this flyer in your business, we would greatly appreciate it." And most of the times they'll start giving out, "Oh, well, here, here's a $25 gift card for you to raffle off. Here's a free box of donuts for your event." You know, it all starts with me being there as a pastor.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: To say, "I'm gonna go and do that legwork."

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah, and let me just interrupt you just for a second. 

Raymond Cabello: I als- yeah. Yep.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Most of our audience is not pastors, and I just wanna throw out here that if your pastor is doing this, and gifted, and has that desire and that passion, that is awesome, and I've also seen this work with laypeople. Like, I know laypeople who have taken on that role in their church, right? Their pastor is, you know, maybe has different priorities or maybe isn't even well. Like, sometimes we have pastors who are struggling with different things, and, this does not... I'm just throwing this out to listeners. This does not have to be the pastor that does it. But,

Raymond Cabello: Right.

Laurie Graham Ertl: I love that you're carrying that charge and that you are... Like, your passion, I'm sure, ignites the people [00:29:00] around you.

Raymond Cabello: Yeah. Yeah, another thing, that I did is I was intentional with being in the schools. So I, you know, when I came to Cross Keys, you know, one, finances, right? Being a pastor you didn't get paid very much. So I left a very well-paying job at a pharmacy benefit manager in our area, to pastor this church for a salary that was probably a third of what my other salary was. So I said, "You know what? One of the best things I can do is get into the schools." So I became a substitute teacher.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Oh, nice.

Raymond Cabello: It killed three birds. I was able to get some extra income, some passive income for my family. I was able to keep an eye on my own children who were in the schools. My kids do not go to a private school. They go to the public schools just like everybody else in our area. And three, it allowed me to build relationships with the school staff.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: And usually I don't start with, "Oh, I'm a pastor." You know, I'm just Mr. C, you know, that's who I am. 

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: Within the schools. And then eventually, you know, they say, "Oh, what's your real job?"

Laurie Graham Ertl: [00:30:00] Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: Then it opens that door. And then we say, "Hey, you know, can our church bring over some snacks for your teachers' lounge on Teacher Appreciation Week?"

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: That'll be great." "Oh, can we come at the last week of school and do snow cones and cotton candy for the kids?" "Yeah, great." It opens the door to say, "Hey, we're now going to adopt you, school, and that way we can send you flyers." "Hey, we're having, you know, , a party at the park, you know. Here's a flyer." Or, "Hey, we have ESL classes, here's a flyer." And they send those flyers out. It creates that partnership, not just gimme, gimme, gimme, but how can I serve you intentionally?

Laurie: Yeah. Pastor Ray, we're gonna have to wrap up. Like, we are totally overtime.

Raymond Cabello: I know. We have so much to.

Laurie Graham Ertl: And I can talk to you forever. And, you know, we kinda mentioned it earlier in podcast, but at the end of July, on July 25th, we have an online conference for pastors. And the things that we talked about on this episode, and you even went into kind of a bi-vocational edge, we're talking about that at the pastors conference.

It's called Leading Well [00:31:00] in a Small Church. And if you are a pastor, you can, you know, get this episode to your pastor. Like, grab a free ticket to that event. It's happening on July 25th. But Raymond's gonna come back. He is not able to speak at this event, but he's gonna speak in our Kidmin and Youth Ministry Conference, which is happening at the end of January. It's the last Saturday in January. So we already have him lined up for there. You're gonna hear more, from Pastor Ray, I'm positive, in the future because he is one of these pastors who loves pastoring a church and sees it not as like a, you know, a mini big church and we have to grow it, but he literally is embracing the unique impact. 

And I wanna say, I truly believe there is a unique impact small churches can have because they're smaller, because they're more nimble, because they can get in places differently. There's a different edge that small churches have in their community, and I think you are showing that in so many ways. So if you look back at the last four years, like, what, what changes in your church or even in you as a leader, what's encouraged you the [00:32:00] most?

Raymond Cabello: How hungry people are to tell somebody else about Jesus.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Oh, interesting. 

Raymond Cabello: We have people who are in their 80s and they're pushing racks of chairs knowing that somebody's gonna sit in that chair to hear about Jesus.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah, yeah.

Raymond Cabello: You know, we have people who say, you know, "Oh, you're going on a mission trip. Here's $500. Whatever you wanna do with that money while you're in country, do it." 

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: They are so willing to sacrifice things for the sake of the gospel. You know, Paul talks about in Romans 9, we just prayed through this on Sunday at our church, how I wish I would... I'm totally paraphrasing. This is the Pastor Raymond version. You know, I'd rather be cut off from Jesus if it means that one of my kinsmen, one of my brothers, from back home could experience His love, right? Are we willing to risk everything for the sake of the gospel?

Our building, our church, our finances, our [00:33:00] stuff, are we willing to risk it all for the sake of the Kingdom? And our people here at Cross Keys, seeing them risk everything, life and limb sometimes, for the sake of the Kingdom is just so beautiful. And I'm not the kind of pastor to say, "Well, you're gonna go do this, and I'm gonna stay here." I'm in the trenches with them. I'm there in the 120-degree heat on a Saturday afternoon passing out backpacks and barbecue and all this kind of stuff. You know, we as pastors and church leaders, we have to be there with our people. We're not, you know, on a pedestal.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: You know, we're not, better than them just because we have a title. We're the same disciples as they are. We have the same grace afforded to us as they do. So we have that same call to, to serve the kingdom well and to risk it all for the sake of the Kingdom.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Pastor Ray, thanks for being with us today. I know you have a whole lot of things going on, and I just really appreciate your time. If people wanna get in touch with you or check out what you're doing, what's the best way for them to find you?

Raymond Cabello: So I am on social [00:34:00] media. I'm on TikTok, @pastor_ray. I don't post as much as I should, but getting better. You can find our church, at crosskeysbaptistchurch.org. Social media at @crosskeysbc is our church handle, you know, on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram as well. You know you can find links to me from all those different places.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Well, make sure to drop those in the show notes too. You know, as we wrap up today's conversation, you know, wherever you're listening from, I hope one thing really sticks with you. The future of your church isn't determined by the size of your budget, the size of your building, or the size of your congregation. shaped not just by the questions we're asking, but by putting feet to the questions, right? 

Like really getting out, as Pastor Ray talked about, getting out in the community, asking the questions, developing the relationships, and using the little that you have because it's a huge impact. Like when I hear churches like yours, Ray, and then, you know, just so many other churches we talk to in our community, so many of these little churches, and some would say tiny churches are making [00:35:00] a huge impact on their community, as big as or bigger than the large churches that they're right down the street from. And, you know, we've gotta be careful not to get into this comparison trap of numbers and programming.

Raymond Cabello: Yep.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Because the difference we're making isn't always I mean, like, the impact isn't just in the numbers. Like, uh,

Raymond Cabello: Exactly.

Laurie Graham Ertl: I think the partnerships you guys are doing are amazing. The amount of help that you're giving in really practical ways is amazing, too. So, you know, not being the kinda church that's waiting for people to come in the doors, but going out, but also inviting them in the doors for their stuff. Like, the fact that

Raymond Cabello: Right.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Your church is being used seven days a week by different organizations, different partnerships, just, ugh, so good. So these are the conversations, we are having here at Small Church Ministry.

We're inviting pastors to come have more of these conversations, at our free online event happening on July 25th. It's called Leading Well in a Small Church. This is a half-day event. This is the first event we've done specifically for [00:36:00] pastors. Small Church Ministry by and large exists for laypeople, for people who aren't paid, for the volunteers who are out there, for the grandma who's coming into the nursery, and the mom who's saying, "Okay, I'll lead youth group." And we also realize the importance, and the responsibility placed on pastors these days. Last week's podcast episode, if you haven't heard it, it actually is talking about why ... or, or about the fact that we've put too much responsibility on pastors and not enough on people. Like, we're all in this together, everybody.

Like, we are all in this together. But if you are a pastor, or you can forward this to your pastor, definitely grab a free ticket to the event happening on July 25th. It's gonna be great. So forward this episode. Keep the conversations going. Send a quick text about what we're talking about. Sometimes the greatest encouragement that we can give our pastors is simply letting them know we're thinking of them, we're praying for them. They're worth investing in, not just being the workhorses where all the conflict falls and all the [00:37:00] troubleshooting falls. So, registration for the conference is completely free. Just go grab a free ticket at smallchurchsummits.com. So thanks so much for listening today. A final word from Pastor Ray. What would you say to anybody listening who's maybe frustrated or feeling stuck?

Raymond Cabello: Don't rely on your own strength. Rely on the Lord and the people that He had given you to lead.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

Raymond Cabello: Many times we try to do it all ourselves, and God can do so much better than we can, and sometimes He puts some amazing people in your circle to carry that burden with you. So do not neglect those that the Lord has given you to lead, to have them lead as well.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. Love it. Thanks for being with us, Pastor Ray.

Raymond Cabello: Thank you.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Alright everybody. Until next time, be a light. [00:38:00]