237: The Future Of The Small Church: What Has To Change? | with Dr. K. Kale Yu

The church is changing. The question is whether we're willing to change with it. 

In this conversation, Dr. K. Kale Yu shares why the future of the small church won't be built on better programs or bigger budgets, but on ordinary people who are equipped to live out their faith every day.

In this episode:

➡️ Why today's church is facing more than a decline in attendance

➡️ The mistake many churches are making when trying to "fix" ministry

➡️ Why the future of the church depends on everyday people, not just pastors

➡️ What small churches can learn from the changing culture around them

➡️ One challenge every pastor needs to hear about leading the church into the future

CONNECT WITH DR. K. KALE YU

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Enkindle: Reviving the Church from Within (The Spark Initiative): a.co/d/07fF1Hil

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Transcript

237: The Future Of The Small Church: What Has To Change? | with Dr. K. Kale Yu

​[00:00:00] 

Laurie Graham Ertl: Hey, hey, welcome back to the Small Church Ministry podcast. We talk about everything small church here. Today we are jumping into talking about honestly, future things about the church, if small churches matter and how they're going to matter in the future. If you've been listening to the podcast for a while, the last couple months, we've talked about both volunteers and pastors.

We are headed into a month of really talking more with pastors. We have an online conference coming up. But really we've been talking about so much that pastors and volunteers are both so important. We tend to pour into volunteers here at Small Church Ministry. There's other organizations [00:01:00] out there that pour into pastors. And we're trying to bridge the gap a little bit, that healthy churches need healthy pastors, and healthy churches need healthy volunteers, healthy laypeople, healthy ministry leaders.

And so today, we're actually jumping into a conversation with a super special guest. Dr. Kale Yu reached out to me a few weeks back about being on the podcast. He has a book that he has written called Enkindle: Reviving the Church from Within. He really talks about unleashing the laity, and, lucky for him, we were just getting ready to get pastors on board for our online conference, so he's gonna be speaking there also at the Leading Well in a Small Church conference happening on July 25th, our first event specifically for pastors.

But Dr. Kale Yu, who's with us today, is a professor of religion. He's an ordained minister. He is a scholar. He's a researcher. And so he's bringing a different perspective in here than just having another opinion. So we're gonna have a lot of fun on this conversation. [00:02:00] Kale and I, will have no problem filling 25 minutes. So welcome to the podcast, Kale.

K. Kale Yu: Hi. Thank you very much for having me, and thank you very much for the ministry that you're doing with small churches. It's very much needed. Thank you.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah, I'm excited. We had so much fun the first time we talked. Cale tends to speak out, like, his mind a little bit like I do. I think you can get a little toe-steppy, like I step on toes sometimes. And I remember one of the first things you talked about with me, besides unleashing laity, which we're gonna get into, is actually that the church is in a crisis.

The modern-day church is currently in a crisis. Do you wanna talk about that a little bit?

K. Kale Yu: Yeah, you know, the National Council of Churches recently said that one in four churches are gonna close in the next several years. One in four. That's a staggering about 100,000 churches. And it, it's not just the Council of Churches, but researchers and church data [00:03:00] analysts have pretty much said the same thing. And so it is definitely a crisis that a lot of people just have a hard time reckoning with.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Why do you think we have a hard time reckoning with it?

K. Kale Yu: Well, I think, there's several reasons. I think one reason is that, you know, it's not for the lack of trying or effort. Denominations and churches have been trying and trying to stem the tide of decline, but nothing seems to work. And so it's sort of easier to kind of, ignore the elephant in the room to accept that, you know, things are not just working and things are just falling apart, and then to honestly reckon with the situation.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. You know, one thing that's happened with us over the past six years is we've been reaching into small churches. I get emails every single week. There will be an email or a Facebook [00:04:00] message or a post, coming to me directly saying, "You don't understand. My church is dying. Like, we are barely hanging on. Our church might fold." Like, it's a panic kind of feeling, and I often have said, "Yes, it might." Like, I mean, I think sometimes we're, like, hanging onto this church, and the reality is, is that church might fold, but my hope is in the Church at large, like the Church in general, the Jesus Christ Church all across the globe. Like, Christ is the one that holds it together, and so I think our fear and our panic doesn't help, but what can we do about that? Like, you just said that one in four churches, it's predicted. And I'm actually surprised it's only one in four. I thought it would be more because we work with churches that are, like, under 12 people and 50 people and 25 people and aging congregations.

I actually thought that percentage would be higher of churches that, that can fold. So I try to talk people out of the fear [00:05:00] of it, that God has plans that, that we're part of His bigger vision, that the, the Church of Jesus Christ is not gonna die, because this isn't, you know, part of God's plan in reaching the world.

But yet, where does our responsibility lie in that, Kale? Like, when you think of that, right, churches are closing, what is on us? Like, what can we do? How do we respond to this crisis that churches really are closing?

K. Kale Yu: Right. Right. Great question. And I think the book reveals a lot of powerful underlying assumptions that we all carry. They're unspoken, but they guide and navigate the way we think about church and church growth. And so when I was doing research for the book and I read up on a lot of small churches that were dying and had died. So but usually the same, de facto method for small churches to, in attempt to survive the situation, was to offer programs.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yes.

K. Kale Yu: [00:06:00] So they would try to restart community dinners, like children's programs. They would offer more things for the community, restart other events and activities. But in almost all cases, they end up failing to produce results, in terms of bringing in more people. And so that is sort of the the mindset that we in the church carry, is that we just hit the right program, whatever that may be, that it will draw in the people.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

K. Kale Yu: So for whatever reason, we go back to the same well.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah

K. Kale Yu: Over and over again, in spite of the fact that it has failed over and over again, thinking that, I think someone said that is a definition of insanity.

Laurie Graham Ertl:: Yes.

K. Kale Yu: And, uh.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah, trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, right?

K. Kale Yu: Right, right.

Laurie Graham Ertl:: Yeah.

K. Kale Yu: And, you know, we've been and as you probably have observed, that churches, especially small [00:07:00] churches, that is the right formula to approach the situation, but it has not worked.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the other thing that I see churches grabbing onto is better marketing, right? Like, oh my gosh, if we want, we gotta do the programs, but we also need to market better. We need a better website. We need a social media presence. And, and by the way, I believe these things are important. I believe whatever we program, we should do well.

I also believe most of us are overextended, and we don't need as many programs. I believe marketing should be good. I think it should give the appearance of who you are. I think we should be promoting ourselves well as who we are, right? But, I love what you're talking about, Kale, is that's not what changes the trajectory. Like, what does change the trajectory? And I don't want you to give everything away 'cause we want everybody to come back and hear you at the conference too. But I know you've got a lot more to say than just a 25-minute session happening at the conference in a few weeks. But where, where can [00:08:00] you give us, you know, a little bit of something to hang on to today, or something practically speaking for a small church?

You know, like, I heard recently that 70% of churches are under 100 currently. I know stats are all out there and all over the board, but we do know the majority of churches are small. So if there's a small church listening now, and they're like, "Yeah, we have tried to solve with programs. We have tried better marketing. What do we do?" Where would you point us?

K. Kale Yu: Right. And I think that the huge gap that you know, most of us in the church don't recognize is that when we do produce programs, and we produce them, we, at abundant level, is that the underlying message is that we are doing these programs expecting a certain result. That we do these programs with an agenda. We do these programs, with an expectation of a certain outcome. And [00:09:00] so for outsiders, especially young people who have grown up in an age of, where fakeness is present, it's omnipresent everywhere, fakeness, and young people through social media sort of have to navigate through what is fake and what is authentic. And so, they are hypersensitive to anything that appears or smells fake. And so, what the younger people see when we in the church do churchy things is that we are doing or acting or performing certain things to achieve agenda. And so, to them, it may seem very fake. The way we try to go about achieving a certain outcome. But for us, it seems very normative, when we do that because that is just the way we have grown up to think what church is, and that is how we bring in [00:10:00] people. But for a culture that has grown increasingly skeptical of the church, it creates barriers and resistance to what we ultimately wanna do.

Laurie Graham Ertl: You know, you mentioned young people even using that word performative. I've heard young adults use that more around the church than I've ever heard that word in my life. They'll say, "Well, it just feels so performative." And you mentioned the word normative, like, you know, those of us who grew up in the church, maybe a little older, maybe middle age. What's normative, I think you said that word. Is that a word, normative?

K. Kale Yu: Yes.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Okay. And it was just, it struck me, like normative and performative and what feels normal for us is performance for many people outside the church. And I also would broaden that out, not just young adults, or, you know, the younger generations, but also those who've been hurt by the church. There are a lot of people who've been hurt by the church or the things being uncovered in church or things that aren't the way we thought they would be, you know, that deconstruction movement, which isn't only young adults. [00:11:00] But I think there is that skepticism in our culture of what the church is, even when our hearts are right, right? You know, like our listeners right now, no one listening, they're like, "I'm not performative. I'm doing my best. I'm try..." You know, like I can hear them, you know, even kind of speaking back, "Well, wait, we're not performative. We, we just wanna do our music well," or, "We're not performative. We just wanna reach this, you know, this young mom community.

We're not trying to be performative. Our hearts are right, right? But I love that you said, but it seems like, or it feels like, it can feel like it's performative to a culture out there that's skeptical.

K. Kale Yu: Absolutely. And what you will commonly hear amongst small churches is that, you know, we are a friendly church. You know, we are a warm church. You know, we are a very welcoming church. So, and that is probably true, that if you go to one of these small churches, they will be very friendly. But the, the younger [00:12:00] generation, they may look at that and point out some hypocrisy, especially if they're very warm and friendly, in church but act differently outside of church. if they're all smiles and happy in church but that is a facade or a front, for their real selves, outside of church. Because young people are, you know, they notice these masks a lot better than we do. They, and for them, this is an issue of authenticity.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

K. Kale Yu: That we in the older generation don't feel like it's important enough to distinguish. But for younger generation, they wanna invest in a place of, genuine realness. And not participate, or advance, what they think is, you know, hypocrisy or performative role-playing.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. You know, as you're talking too, another phrase came to [00:13:00] mind that, we teach a lot around here in like relationships and conflict and, you know, hard conversations, good conversations, going deep with people, emotional health. We talk a lot about intention doesn't equal impact, and that is coming to mind as you talk because I think all of our good intentions, many of us in our churches, it's not equaling the impact that it's having. Like we're trying. We think we're being friendly. We think we're being welcoming. We think we're reaching out to a culture, but our intention is not always equal to the impact that it's having on other people. You know, we're talking about the future of the church and what has to change. That's the gist of this conference here-- I mean, of this conversation on the podcast episode today.

So the future of the church and what has to change. We talked a little bit about that we might be solving the wrong problem in different areas, more programs, more events, more strategies, better marketing. So what do you see as the real problem? As you unpack it, you've talked about authenticity, you've talked about performative. Like what do you [00:14:00] see as the real problem and, and what can we do? Like what's the answer?

K. Kale Yu: Yeah, great question. The real problem, you sort of alluded to it. You said we're trying. You said we're trying very hard, and that is absolutely true, and that is a problem.

We are trying, and so we are trying to produce a certain outcome, a certain result. We are planning, we are organizing, we are doing our best, to stem the tide, but it's not working. And what I would say is that us trying is part of the problem.

And, so there are many reasons why that is a problem. But, a key reason why that is a big problem is the fact that when we try, the underlying assumption is that it's a human effort. And so when we implement a program or [00:15:00] a method, we try to do it well. We try to cover all the bases. We try to do everything from A to Z. But when you think about it from beginning to the end, all human effort.

And so, what that is, is that we drive the Holy Spirit out of that process. That we don't, include, God in the process of helping churches grow because implicitly, through our trying, we believe that by our own power, own effort, by our own ingenuity, we can somehow, grow the churches. And so when we don't partner with the Holy Spirit, is a big problem.

Laurie Graham Ertl:: So practically speaking, what does that look like?

K. Kale Yu So, know, what I what I tell churches, instead of trying, you know, [00:16:00] just be you. I tell them that, you know, you are enough. I tell them that you have everything that you need within yourself, which when you have the light of Christ living inside of you and that is enkindled, let it be. Don't try, but allow the Holy Spirit to work through you and allow the Holy Spirit to create the energy. Because the Holy Spirit will give you the ideas. And, the Holy Spirit will give us the best ideas, much better than what anything that we can produce.

Laurie Graham Ertl: So I'm gonna just ask you again to be really practical. So there's two types of people. Well, there's a lot of types of people, but I'm picturing two different types of people listening to the podcast right now. There's the people who are the prayers, and they just believe that if we pray, God's gonna grow our church, and if we pray hard enough, and there's some doing in that too, right? Like, there's like if we pray hard enough that God is gonna [00:17:00] answer, and there's a doing that goes for a result. But I've also got a whole bunch of people listening right now who are the worker bees, and they're like listening here saying, "Kale, but what do we do? How do we just be?" Like, what does that look like? Because we've grown up in decades of being in a church where church is doing. It's taking role even. It's, you know, doing stewardship campaigns. It's doing outreach. It is a lot of doing. So what does it look like to say invite the Holy Spirit in, and please link in the word Enkindle, because I love that you use that word Enkindle. It's the title of your book. It's the beginning of your book, correct? Like Enkindle: Reviving the Church from Within. What does that look like to invite the Holy Spirit in and revive the church from within? Can you unpack that a little more?

K. Kale Yu: Yes, and thank you for mentioning that. And I truly believe that we in the church don't talk about the Holy Spirit and Enkindle. Like, the Holy Spirit, you know, every day. I [00:18:00] pray that the Holy Spirit will enkindle my heart, my mind, my soul, to cleanse my heart with the holy fire, to activate, my soul and to, to guide my heart. And Enkindle is about the Holy Spirit, can speak to anybody. And so, when I talk to churches, I tell them the same thing that the Holy Spirit speaks to children, to the youth, speaks to the person who got saved yesterday, to the meth addict, to the seniors in the church. And I say that, you know, the Holy Spirit speaks to children who a lot of times don't have any filters, and they just blurt out what the Spirit is telling them. And I tell them, you know, "Listen to your children. Take them seriously."

Because, we in the church, this is another powerful assumption, is that, [00:19:00] we in the church assume that children are there in the church to be guided by us, to be educated, to be led. And so we always think the children are on the receiving end of what we do instead of being in the vanguard. And so, as you know, you know, children and youth are absent in the church. And so, one way to grow children and youth in the church is to really take them seriously. And they may say stuff that doesn't quite fit our churchy program style, but know, we have to discern whether the Holy Spirit is speaking, you know, through them, and to really seriously take up what they are saying and follow through.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm.

K. Kale Yu: And one of the great advantages of that is that, that children and youth will truly believe that the elders [00:20:00] in the church take them and their faith journey very seriously.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

K. Kale Yu: And so, you know, practically speaking, you know, we have to change the way we think about how the Holy Spirit speaks to even people that we have blocked out in our minds. We, we don't to, that's not... We, we never intend to, but that, but really that's how we think, don't we?

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. Yeah. I love what you're talking about. I don't think you know this about our ministry, but one of the things that I teach a lot is having planning parties instead of, like, having a core group of people plan for everyone else, right? Like, we plan all these events and we want everybody to come.

We're doing it for them, is to plan things with people. And one of the things that I teach is inviting people on the fringes, inviting people who've never been there, inviting the granddaughter who comes, you know, on Christmas and Easter, you know, and having that pool, because I totally believe that, that the Holy [00:21:00] Spirit can speak through, through everyone, and that when we limit it, it-- we're really just-- We're almost putting ourselves in a hole.

We're kind of pigeonholing ourselves in this is the perspective, this is where we are. And, and when we broaden out, it's just such a different, It's just a different community we're creating. We're inviting people in to a different level instead of being the ones like, "We're doing ministry for you or to you."

Like we're building a community together, right? And so does that land with you well or did I like say anything that you're like, "Nah, that's not really what I was thinking"?

K. Kale Yu: Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. And, another analogy that I often use is that we in the church, try to grow the church outside in.

When I say outside in, that we try to apply and implement, a program, a model that someone has written about or we heard what other churches do, or a success [00:22:00] story that we try to bring this outside resource into our churches. And what I like to say is that, the Enkindle model is inside out, because it starts with the individual. It starts with the holy fire in the individual and releasing that out into the world.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

K. Kale Yu: So it starts with... It's a... And so in other words, customized to the individual's passions and their unique calling, like you, Laurie, that you have that, passion for this unique ministry, and you are releasing it out into the world. And so, when I talk to small churches, I tell them that you have everything that you need right in your pews.

Laurie Graham Ertl: I say that too.

K. Kale Yu: Yes.

Laurie Graham Ertl:: I love it. Yeah, I do. I say that as well. I say like, you know, I believe [00:23:00] God has provided you everything that you need to do exactly what He would have you do. 'Cause so often we're saying, if we only had more people, if we only had a different budget, if we had a better leader, if we had a better pastor.

And so what you're saying is exactly, you know, what we're trying to preach and, like, change the world. Hey, guys, like, we have what we need. And when you talk about the uniqueness of the individual, I think of the uniqueness of six different individuals together, or 12 or 50. Like, every small church is so unique from the next one that, that importing things from other places just doesn't, it doesn't work, and then we wonder why it's not working, right?

K. Kale Yu: Yeah, and I say that you know, you have the fire of the Holy Spirit, inside of you. But every person is different. Every, you know, people, have their own unique life experiences, their conditions, their particular joys, their gifts, their callings, as well as their sorrows, their pain and struggles [00:24:00] too. So you have the fire of the Holy Spirit, but it is expressed and released the uniqueness of you. And so you may be a very shy, quiet, and reserved person.

It will be released differently, than a person who's extroverted, you know, who's very active, who's very chatty. But it all, it's the Holy Spirit working within the individual. So the model is a very customized, individualized way of releasing their gifts and their passions, with the Holy Spirit.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. Yeah.

K. Kale Yu: There is... go ahead.

Laurie Graham Ertl: I'm just saying you're mentioning the model. That's what's in your book? Is that what you're talking about, the model? Okay.

K. Kale Yu: Yes. And so the book, it doesn't tell you what to do. It doesn't offer a formula or a program, or a resource. But I basically say that, [00:25:00] know, when you have individuals in your small church, let them loose. Release them. And another title of a chapter is that There Are No Failures.

Just let them loose. Don't be afraid. It may fail, but keep trying. Sometimes that first failure is a way is the groundwork for future success of some kind, which I have seen. And so what I tell people is that when you do this, I promise that it's stimulating, exciting, and fun. And not too many people can say that about church programs, right?

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah, exactly. So your session at the conference coming up on July 25th, by the way, free tickets, pastors, grab it at smallchurchsummits.com. We have a four-hour half-day conference with 12 different small church pastors. Kale is one of them. But your session is Unleashing the Laity: The Future of the Church Depends on Everyday People.

Could you address pastors on this [00:26:00] topic just right now? Unleashing the laity, because for a lot of pastors, that can be fear, that can be risk, that can be maybe beyond their skill set. Like, what do pastors need to do or be or learn to be a pastor that can unleash the laity?

K. Kale Yu: A great question. Pastors are sort of like gatekeepers. They can open the gate or they can close the gate. And so you know, what freaks out pastors is when laity starts, in their minds, things that seem out of control, out of the ordinary things that don't seem churchy. It creates fear among pastors who tend to like being in control and having things under control, being under their management. So for Enkindle to really work, that openness to [00:27:00] where the Spirit is leading, and, you know, the Holy Spirit, you know, goes any which way, direction, and being open to that and, and only encouraging it, but enabling it, you know, requires a certain level of trust and confidence for someone to, to unleash that in their small church.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And if you're listening right now and you're a Women's ministry leader or a children's Sunday school teacher, did you hear the overlap for all of us? Because unleashing the laity, I know a lot of people listening are in, non-denominational churches, evangelical churches, and you might not even be familiar with the term laity.

Laity is volunteers. Laity is people who aren't paid. Laity is people who aren't staff people. And can you imagine if every, even ministry leaders who are leading up the Women's ministry, we have the same issues. We wanna control things. We wanna make the decisions. You know, we're, we're nervous about the renegade who wants to do this.

You know, I mean, I think this [00:28:00] message, is perfect for pastors. I think it's beautiful, and I also think it applies pretty broadly, , to the church, just to the church as a whole. Like, can we give some credit that the Holy Spirit might be working, you know, in a person that we would be like, "Eh," you know, like we'd be nervous about because God's bigger.

God's just bigger. It's risky. It's scary. It's exciting. It's fresh. It's new. And I think it's definitely part of the future of the churches that will survive. You know, we started out talking about how many churches are closing. Do you wanna talk about that just a little bit as we start to wrap up?

Kale, like, what do you think will make a difference? And I know I'm not asking you to be a, a prophet or anything, but you've done a lot of research. You study a lot. You integrate with a lot of churches all over the place. What do you think will be the difference between the churches who, who are still existing 10, 20 years from now and even thriving versus those who have closed or are still struggling?

K. Kale Yu: Yeah, and one of the strong cultural priorities that we in the church [00:29:00] uphold and maintain is this idea that church should be a place where everything is neat, tidy, and organized. So, spend a lot of time and effort to ensure that things are neat and tidy in the church. But the reality is that, you know, people's lives are kinda messy.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah.

K. Kale Yu: And so we, and so we try to... We in the church try to uphold a facade neat and tidy lives. While, behind that facade is a lot of messy things going on in people's lives that, that we willingly choose to ignore. And so, for a lot of people, it's not real. Not genuine. It's not authentic. When we in the church choose to just dwell and reside in this neat, organized, seemingly perfect front cover.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. [00:30:00] Yeah. So the difference between churches who survive and thrive.

K. Kale Yu: Yeah. And so I think, these churches that that die, they die looking neat and tidy and organized. Everything is, like, in its proper place. Everything looks fine, it's clean, it end up dying. But the church that enables messiness is the one that allows for greater creativity, a greater expression of people's messy lives. It's a, you know, from a lot of people's perspective, it's kind of, chaotic. But it allows people's true selves to connect to the church, opposed to, to what some people, may criticize as kind of like preserving the pretension of a nice and tidy church.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting to hear you and talk [00:31:00] with you and be on so much of the same page as you and still try to go, "So what does this look like? What is the practicality?" 'Cause I'm drawn back, right, to my own bias or culture of churches doing, right? As much as I talk about how, like, we're doing too many programs, like pull back from programs and, you know, I'm just sitting here myself going, "But how do we do it? How do we teach them? How do we..." You know? And I think so much of this is, is not as much doing and teaching, it is, which is what you said, Kale, is listening and allowing. Like allowing the Holy Spirit, you know, unleashing, like and that more of listening to everything happening around us instead of trying to control the room.

Yeah, and, you know, churches may start up an excellent program, from, you know, start to finish, really well thought out, really well executed, but may not be something from their hearts. It may not be something that is, that they're truly passionate about, [00:32:00] they've adopted a program which they think appeals to people. What appeals to people is authenticity.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great note to end on. Kale, I can't wait to have more conversations with you. I can't wait to, hear you at the Leading Well Conference. I can't wait for our community and our audience to get to know you more through conversations and also through your book. Before we close out, how do they find your book?

How do they connect with you in the future for people who want to know more or learn more?

K. Kale Yu: Sure. My website is kkaleyu.net but all of my books are on Amazon and other booksellers. So it's out there.

Laurie Graham Ertl: So look for K Kale Yu, and we'll make sure to drop the link in the show notes also, so you don't have to scribble down if you're driving or on a treadmill or something right now. And your name is unique, so we're not gonna find a bunch of you. [00:33:00] Well, it's so funny, I hear an author the other day, I heard it and I'm looking it up, I'm like, "There's three of you. Which one is it?" And so.

K. Kale Yu: Right, right.

Laurie Graham Ertl: Way to have a unique name that you can get your own domain with your name in it. So we will be sure to drop that in the show notes. And if you wanna hear more from Kale at the upcoming conference, grab a free ticket, to Leading Well in a Small Church. It is designed for pastors.

No, we don't say you have to be a senior pastor or a leading pastor. We know small churches have different definitions of what they use the word pastor for. So if you're in a pastoral role and you wanna join us, grab a free ticket at smallchurchsummits.com. We'd love to have you there. And I know many of you listening are not pastors. These topics are still for you. Kale's book is for you. If you're a volunteer, if you're a ministry leader, if you're a core member of the church with no title, this is for you. That's literally Kale's message is unleashing the laity.

Would you do us a favor, though? Please forward this episode to your pastor. We want as many pastors to hear about this upcoming conference as possible. Again, it's free, and we would love to see them [00:34:00] there. And if you think your pastor doesn't need encouragement, look again. Pastors are human, just like all of us. So, you know, keep up the good work with what you're doing in your churches, like keep being a light.

And I know I end my podcast always saying, "Be a light." And a lot of times we think of that being outside, you know, to the dark world around us, but it's also within our communities, within our church bodies. Because sometimes we take for granted the people serving with us, you know, the ones showing up. Our pastors, our ministry leaders, all those people doing all the hard work.

So be a light all over the place, and one way you can do that is actually share this episode as well. So check out, Kale's book in the link below, his website. You'll get all, you'll get all of that as well in the show notes. And otherwise, I guess we'll, talk again next week. Kale, thanks again for being with us.

K. Kale Yu: Thank you very much.

Laurie Graham Ertl: All right, we'll catch y'all soon. Bye-bye. [00:35:00]