238: Reaching the Churched, the Unchurched & the Dechurched | with Pastor Patrick Dailey

Reaching your community starts with understanding your community. 

Pastor Patrick Dailey explains why the words churched, unchurched, and dechurched matter more than ever, what it means to minister in a post-Christian culture, and how small churches can create natural opportunities to build relationships with the people around them.

In this episode:

➡️ What it means to minister to the churched, the unchurched, and the dechurched

➡️ Why "post-Christian" changes the conversation for today's church

➡️ How a family STEAM Night became a bridge into the community

➡️ Why small churches are uniquely positioned for this moment

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Transcript

238: Reaching the Churched, the Unchurched & the De-Churched | with Pastor Patrick Dailey

​[00:00:00] 

Laurie: Hey, hey, welcome back to the Small Church Ministry podcast. We have an awesome interview today. I'm having so much fun the last couple weeks on the show doing some interviews. It's been a while. If you've listened to the Small Church Ministry podcast for long, we go through seasons with little interviews or we sprinkle 'em in, and then we don't have interviews.

So it's always fun to have conversations with people that I meet, and I'm like, "Oh, my gosh", like, "people need to hear your story". So Pastor Patrick Dailey is one of those people, really unique setting, unique church, doing some really unique stuff that we're gonna talk about today. But Patrick, do you wanna just introduce yourself just a little bit as we get going.

Patrick Dailey: [00:01:00] Yeah.

Laurie: And just a little context, most of the people listening are not pastors.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: They are those core volunteers, those ministry leaders and, you know, the people that you want in your church.

Patrick Dailey: Right.

Laurie: That's who's listening right now.

Patrick Dailey: Absolutely.

Laurie: We got a good sprinkling of pastors and ministry families as well. So why don't you tell a little bit about yourself, just a little background and context before we jump in?

Patrick Dailey: Yeah, absolutely. Well, my name is Patrick Dailey, and I am the pastor of Ontario Community Church. Ontario Community Church is a historic Japanese-American church. It was founded in 1945 as part of the, at the conclusion of the Japanese returning from internment camps. And so I've had the privilege of just working with this very historic church.

The church is on the border of Oregon and Idaho, which is very wild because you have, a certain type of culture for Idaho and a certain kind of culture with Oregon. And so, I am married. I have, with my wife, Amber Daley, and we have five children together, so that's kind of a fun piece. We have two sets of [00:02:00] twins, so that's kind of a big.

Laurie: Oh my gosh.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah, so that's a fun, fun piece in there. And, yeah, we just love the Lord, and we just love meeting people and helping them as they go along their spiritual journey in Christ. And so that's a little bit about me. I grew up in Southern California, so did my wife. We lived in Hawaii for a little bit, and now here we are on, at church, border of Oregon and Idaho.

Laurie: Yeah, and you've been there, like, three years, right?

Patrick Dailey: Yes.

Laurie: Is that what you had said so.?

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm.

Laurie: Even there a few years, long enough to be established. My daughter's a teacher, and they always say in teaching, it's year three is when you really get your feet under you. Anytime you, like, move to a new school or anything.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm.

Laurie: So I love that you've been there that amount of time.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: I also just wanna mention that you talk about the history of your church, because even though your church has a fascinating history and, like, there, there's a lot of nuances with that history, I always like to talk about history in any kind of ministry coaching we do. So many people ignore history, like we're just starting now, we're starting fresh.

Patrick Dailey: Right. Right.

Laurie: Your history, even if [00:03:00] you're in a church plant that's been around 10 years, the history you're walking into even after 10 years is... It's important. Like, how has the history of your church impacted you now? Or, and even to broaden it out, like, as a pastor with the experience you've had, for other people listening, why do we need to pay attention to history?

Patrick Dailey: Yeah, especially when you think of areas and specifically in the city of Ontario, there is a lot of that Japanese heritage that's already embedded there. So if you were to do a church plant, that's something you have to factor in, is this rich Japanese history here.

Laurie: Mm-hmm.

Patrick Dailey: But in terms of the church specifically, what I love telling people is it's called the art of Kintsugi, and if you've ever seen these bowls with golden, with gold in them, it's actually a good representation of you have a broken plate, and you mend it together and make it whole.

Well, part of our history is how we look at that from a theological perspective, that we are like that broken plate, and that it is God that brings us back together, [00:04:00] and we become more valuable than we were even to begin with. And that kind of thing, carrying that from the inception of the church to what it is today, is something that's really remarkable.

I mean, I tell people about the art of Kintsugi from a theological piece, right? It's simple. It's a very simple piece, right? You look at a broken plate. We're so easy to throw it away. You know? We don't think about repairing it, but the care and intentionality of bringing it back together is something that you can really think about, okay, God does that with us. And so just as these people came from the internment camps, they settled in, they became farmers, and they were able to just build this church together, being in harmony with one another, it's the same kind of mindset. Well, we think, well, it may not be in internment camps nowadays, but let's think of brokenness on how it is today, and there's lots of broken families, broken individuals, and they need to be mended. They need to be nurtured, and so that's kind of the language.

I even think of, [00:05:00] this idea of the church being a hospital, where, you know, everybody needs nourishing. And when we think of a hospital, it's not just critical conditions. It's being after the fact, right? After you're cared and nurtured for and you're on your way when you're going about in everyday life.

Laurie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and even within the church, I think about conflict or broken relationships or these situations where there's been some bullying. Like, we want to ignore this history and, like, say, "Okay, we're just gonna move on and move past it, and forget the past." Forget what lies behind.

Patrick Dailey: Right.

Laurie: Right?

Patrick Dailey: Yeah. Yeah.

Laurie: That verse taken out of context so often, and move toward the future. And, but our history and the mending of it or the need for repair of it, I think is so important. And when we ignore it, when we move past it, not so good. So Patrick is actually speaking at our Leading Well in a Small Church conference, which is happening at the end of July. So July 25th. Actually, it's like, it's, by the time this airs, it's gonna be this week.

Patrick Dailey: Right.

Laurie: Right? 

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: If so you know a pastor who's leading in a small church, please get them there. It's a free online conference happening. It's just half a day, [00:06:00] but we have 12 amazing pastors who are speaking, and these are pastors from small churches. So, so often what happens in leadership in small churches, if you're in a denomination or if you go to a leadership conference, you go to this conference and it's like you're the ugly stepchild because we're looking at all the churches that are 400 and 500 and talking about growth, and you're in a smaller congregation. And so to understand that the majority, vast majority, Doug Butler, who's talking at the conference also, he said the statistic right now is 70% of churches now are under 100. Is that what you've heard as well?

Patrick Dailey: Yeah. Yeah, it's like seven... Yeah, that sounds about, I mean.

Laurie: This is normative.

Patrick Dailey: Similar, huh? Yeah.

Laurie: We're one of the few places actually speaking into small churches 'cause it's a different kind of ministry.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Laurie: Patrick, what have you seen that's different? One of the illustrations I use is small church, big church is not like making chocolate chip cookies on a smaller scale. Like, it's not the same recipe and just making less. What have you seen is really different and unique about a small church setting that's beautiful [00:07:00] as well as challenging, but what do you think small churches can give uniquely?

Patrick Dailey: Yeah. Well, I've had, 'cause the church that I'm at is an average of about 65 people, and you get to know names very quickly, very easily. You get to know their story. You get to know their background, what it is they've gone through. You can pray for them with you know, if there's a surgery that's going on or if they're going through, there's something going on with their family. You can be present with them. I know that, in the session that I'll be giving, I'm talking about the ministry of presence, and I think presence is a very, very big thing. And so I'll definitely be talking about that. But I think, to answer your question, it's getting to know people by name and just seeing them grow. I know when you're in a big church, one of the challenges is, well, how do you memorize everybody's name? That certainly can be a challenge. But there's that intentionality of, oh, I know Steve, or I know Josh, or I know Heather or whoever. And you have that kind of sense of that, who they are as a person and how they have grown, right? I think of when scripture talks about how Christ is the great Shepherd and He knows each of [00:08:00] His sheep, right? Well, when you see that imagery of a shepherd, right, well, you can imagine like, oh, I know, you know, Bill the sheep here or Shawn the sheep or whatever. And it's like, as you're all jour- Yeah. I know there's a movie called Shawn the Sheep right now. Or, but you think of those things, that you're all walking together as you're journeying to green pastures, and I love that kind of imagery, for churches.

Laurie: So I really wanna talk about a couple uniquenesses that I saw with your church as I'm getting to know you, and I've looked on your website. I've also looked at some of your articles and things like that.

Patrick Dailey: Oh, yeah.

Laurie: Like you, as a person. But before we get into the term 'de-churched' and all the Steam Night, which is like, I'm just so excited to share about that with our audience. Before we get into that, as you're talking, your presence is calm. And if anybody saw you on video, like, you're smiling, and you seem really chill, and your church, you just said, is 65 people.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm.

Laurie: I was just talking to my son this morning about our conversation we're gonna have, and I told him about your church, and he's like, "Oh my gosh, he must be so stressed out. That would be so stressful to have this, you know, these two different types of people coming, and, all that." [00:09:00] And I said, "You know, Steve, he doesn't seem stressed out. He seems happy, and he seems purposeful, and he seems like he loves his life."

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm. Right.

Laurie: And so many people in smaller churches are really discouraged by 65. They're like, "Why aren't we growing? What's wrong with us? And we're failing.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: So.

Patrick Dailey: Right.

Laurie: Can you speak to people who are listening right now who feel like that? Like, how...

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm totally reading you wrong, but I tend to read people right.

Patrick Dailey: Right.

Laurie: How are you finding purpose and mission and, like, God being present? How are you finding this peace and joy in your life in ministry in a church of 65?

Patrick Dailey: Yeah. Well, I think part of it is it's important to know that, you know, no two, no church is the same, right? Every church has their unique identity. They all have their different, DNA, as it were, their different culture. And, you know, in the terms of stress, so, like, let me tackle that one.

It's really that, you know, I do get stressed out. There are moments where I'm like, "Oh my gosh," but I have to really give it to the Lord and just understand that [00:10:00] there are things that are beyond my control, and I have, the same kind of trust that, a layperson puts into the Lord is the same kind of trust that the pastor has to put in. And so I know that there are a lot of situations that I've been in where I'm ministering to someone or I'm counseling someone, and it goes sideways. And it's like, oh, no, we were working on this, and it's going this direction. And it's kind of thinking, it's not about me. It's about their journey. And even if they go the wrong direction or they're going the wrong way, I can still pray for them because it's God that has the final say, and I have that much faith in the Lord, knowing that there's only so much that I can do.

I can be present. I can speak truth. I can, you know, I can pray for them. I can, you know, show them scripture. And it's kind of like this idea of you lead a horse to water, but they have to decide to drink. So I have to leave that in God's hand. I've done my part, and, you know, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be [00:11:00] consistent. I'm gonna be persistent with them, you know?

Laurie: Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: But I think that's the biggest thing I've had to let myself know is there's a lot that's out of my control, but I have to trust that God will do the rest of it. Like, the Holy Spirit will continue to lead and guide them. You know, that's in terms of stress.

Now, in terms of numbers and in attendance, I think it's anybody can get into that mindset, right? I have a, literally a clipboard, right outside the door here that has all the attendance. And sometimes I look at it, I'm like, "Wow, we had 80 people," but then the next week, "Oh, we had 33. What happened?" So I think it's natural to think about that.

But what keeps it in check is to think of the stories of people's lives who've been impacted.

Laurie: Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: One example I can give you is, a woman who had a bad experience at church, never went to church, and then she's coming, and she believes in Christ and becomes baptized. Well, that's why we're doing it, even if it's just for that one person, and how far they're coming.

And when they have a conversation with you, and [00:12:00] it's saying, "You know, this sermon that you preached on or when you prayed this way, it really stuck out to me." It's kind of like this is, Scripture talks about you shall know them by their fruit. So that's part of your fruit is seeing the individuals, each and every person, and how they are growing.

Now, how someone grows, it obviously is different, you know? I think of one person that I met, a blind man. Who he, very angry towards the Lord. We were doing a Bible study, and he felt that, you know, he didn't trust God and he didn't want anything to do with Him. But going through the Psalms and going through emotions and being present, how did he progress?

His heart being softened, his heart changing, and being like, "You know, I am blind, but I know where I'm going when I die. I know that God loves me." And I'm like, "Man, when I first met you, I didn't wanna be in the room with you.

Laurie: Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: But now. Look at how much, and you gotta look at that fruit. You gotta check it out.[00:13:00] 

Laurie: Yeah. I think the program mentality and the church growth mentality, honestly stands pretty much opposite of what Jesus modeled.

Patrick Dailey: Hmm. Hmm.

Laurie: You know, our modern church, the mindset we have of what shows God at work.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm.

Laurie: I think we've gotten really messed up, and that's a conversation for another day.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Laurie: So let's get into your church.

Patrick Dailey: Right, right.

Laurie: Big things I wanted to talk to you about. One of the things, I believe this was on your church website.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Laurie: You have a church website, a personal website. I found you in a couple other places. One of the things I saw was that, a pastor to the churched, the unchurched, and the de-churched.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Laurie: Do you wanna talk about that?

Patrick Dailey: Yeah, so that, I learned that from Gathered to Scatter, the Unstuck Group. There's a couple different sources out there. But basically, you have three categories. The churched are people that attend church, right? So that's pretty easy to understand.

The unchurched are people who they don't, they don't go to church. They might not be a believer at all, but you know they're just kinda out in the public, they're out in the community.

And then you have the dechurched, which is kind of an interesting one. These are people that [00:14:00] have experienced, you can call it church hurt, you can call it deconstruction, you can call it all different kinds of things. But it is a very big category, especially given the region that I'm in. I'm in the Pacific Northwest, where it's one of the most unchurched/dechurched areas in the country. And you meet people who, These dechurched people are people who, they know church culture, they know the Bible, but the sense of trusting in pastors, trusting in leadership, trusting in the existence of the institution of a church, not so much.

And so it's kind of been an interesting dynamic because I know most of the people that, um, Ontario Community Church gets are dechurched people. And it's by this, these conversations of, "Oh, I'm-- am I going to hell if I, if I don't speak in tongues?" Or, "Am I going to hell if I don't read the King James Version?" Now, I understand there's different convictions and stuff.

Laurie: Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: But when you find someone who is afraid, [00:15:00] they don't even wanna show up to the door, there's work that has to be done in helping them form and to heal. And it's like, okay, well, that was their conviction, or maybe there was a misunderstanding here, and let's talk about that and help them on their way.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Laurie: So a lot of times, there's trends in churches or business management, or whatever, throughout the decades. Um, there was a trend for a long time, and I think it's still out there, of you choose your niche group, right. Like, you're gonna choose who you're gonna minister to. Like.

Patrick Dailey: Right.

Laurie: Word Church for new believers.

Patrick Dailey: Right.

Laurie: And if you wanna be discipled, go somewhere else. Or we're a church for deep discipleship, and if you're a new believer, we have a place for that, but it's not on Sunday morning.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm.

Laurie: How, do you bridge church, unchurched, and de-churched the same umbrella?

Patrick Dailey: Right? It's the same, I answer that the same way when it comes to the politics of Oregon and Idaho, is that you gotta keep the main thing, the main thing.

Laurie: Mm-hmm.

Patrick Dailey: We focus on Jesus Christ, we focus on the word of God, and we come with this, this sense of humility. We're not gonna know everything about God, we're not gonna know everything about the Bible, but [00:16:00] certainly it is our intention to come with our heart, much like we come with our mind.

And we come to worship the Lord, right? We come to sing songs and praise His name. But we also come knowing that there's so much to learn about this, this Bible, this book. And there's also so much to learn about one another. Just as scripture talks about we're to encourage and lift up one another. Bear each, bear one another's burdens.

Well, that's being there when, in celebrations and in times of mourning. And so it's kind of, we gotta put those things aside. We've gotta put away these, these differences and focus on Christ. The language that I use is, it doesn't matter what you've been through, it doesn't matter what you're going through, it doesn't matter what you're about to go through, Jesus is calling every single one of us.

So you may be a a baby Christian, you may be a mature believer that's gone every Sunday, by golly. You may be someone that's mistrusting of church culture. The invitation is the same, and you [00:17:00] have to push in your congregation that we're all, we all should be on that journey in Christ, with Christ, but where you're at in the journey is gonna be different than the person next to you.

Laurie: Yeah, and we put a, I think we put a lot of walls and dividers up between these groups just as laypeople, as individuals. Like, we can't relate to that person. There's been so much judgment from the church community for those who are going through deconstruction. Which has caused a lot of damage.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: Like, can we just love and understand that that's actually a normal, natural thing to deconstruct.

Patrick Dailey: Right. Yeah.

Laurie: When you've gone through it? Like, it can actually lead to a stronger faith.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: So I think all these walls coming up in what our mission is and what we should be about, and almost that stick-to-it-ness to we know what, know, like, like we're so firm on what we believe and what we've been taught, when there is a lot that... I love that you just said, "We don't know everything."

Like, we, we don't know everything, and can we have some humility even if we've walked in church forever? But I really wanna talk about, gosh, I wanna talk about post-Christian age too.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm

Laurie: Let's talk about Steam Night first, because I think this is a good [00:18:00] example. Now, I know you do other programs, but when I saw Steam Night.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: And how you talk about it on the website, like, I just think this is beautiful.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm.

Laurie: I think every church shouldn't duplicate Steam Night, right? But should have something in their mind that has the same effect or the same feeling.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm.

Laurie: Just tell them about Steam Night.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah. You know, this is probably one of the biggest questions I get from people within the community, and, I know recently, my wife got an email, she's the children's director, from a church in Florida to reach out about these STEAM nights.

Laurie: Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: So, the inception, it started with, when we moved here, we noticed that there are so many nonprofits and organizations that are doing the same things that churches are doing, and that kinda sounds scary. You're like, "Okay, you're doing an Easter egg hunt or an Easter extravaganza, or you're doing a harvest thing going on, or you're doing a Chris- " Right.

And, and it's like, well, that's interesting. And it's not that these nonprofits are doing things bad, but you can't... I don't [00:19:00] like using the word compete, but you really can't compete when, a well-funded nonprofit is doing the thing that the church has been doing. And so.

Laurie: I think we could also say, or the mega church.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: Sometimes we see smaller churches trying to compete with that.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: I have a... I get pretty passionate about Vacation Bible School and how we duplicate it. Like, can we do something different.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Laurie: So okay, keep going.

Patrick Dailey: So it really was, my wife and I really had to have a heart to heart. It's like, well, we need to find a way to have the community come to us in a very safe environment and slash or be present in the community. And so we had, we had to think, well, what are the children that we have in our children's ministry?

And when we first came, it was really my children. I have five of them, and one, a couple, and it's grown. And part of that was thinking, well, we need to know what do children like to do? Well, when you think of science, people... A lot of children, they love science. Are you kidding me? All the different science experiments that are there.

We think of [00:20:00] technology. We think of, I have math, and you see the A in there as art, but it's finding these things that kids love and integrating faith into it. So when we think of science, we can talk about, okay, what kind of activity can we have that is a- real safe and fun activity?

You might do different colors or different science experiments, and you also teach in the same way that we care for the plants, God takes care of us, and you kind of have a little direct link into there. For technology, we partnered with a, it's a game called Star Rune. It's an educational game, for typing and learning about science and whatnot. We do have prayer, and we just say, "Look, you don't have to be Christian to come. We're gonna have a free meal. We're gonna have fun together. Bring your whole family." And the the cool thing about this is we post it saying, "This is a STEAM night." And some people are like, "Well, don't you mean STEM?" Well, we have the A for the art and the faith component.

Laurie: Mm-hmm.

Patrick Dailey: And so it's [00:21:00] just really a fun night that is different, something that is unique that children are interested in. And you go all out in it. You have people in your church who help, knowing that we're not doing this necessarily for our church. We're doing this for the community.

Laurie: Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: For children who may not have ever had any experience with the church. We've had families, I had one family who was a complete agnostic atheist type who was like, "Are you gonna convert me?" And I jokingly was like, "Well, do you want me to convert you?" And we had a good laugh in here, right?

Laurie: Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: 'Cause he's like, "You, you're providing a free meal and games for my children. What are you really trying to do?" And I said, "Well, we are trying to sh-" Yeah.

Laurie: That's skepticism we have these days.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: Of, there's gotta be a hook, there's gotta be a catch.

Patrick Dailey: Yep. And that's where it's... We're doing this 'cause this is part of what we believe in. We are called to s- in the same way we're called to love God and love others, we serve God by serving others, and so this is... we're planting the seed as it were, right? We're having this event, [00:22:00] this... I mean, people come for meals all the time. What are, what... You know- Throw a, up a pizza or do a spaghetti night, right? You can do some real cheap things.

Laurie: Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: And have a layperson, a volunteer, maybe champion the meal, right? Have someone, who's passionate about a science experiment, and let's talk about, okay, what can... how can we integrate that with faith? And it's a really neat way where there's that exposure to church for the first time. Now, when the kids come in, some of them are like, "I've never been in a church." Some families are that way. Others, it's, "Oh, I go to this other church." Well, that's fine. And some are like, "Well, it's not a church," and you have that kind of skepticism.

So, it's just, we want it to be welcome and fun, and we're not gonna force anything down, down your throat. We're just here to have a good time.

Laurie: And do you do this once a week or once a month? How often do you do STEAM night at your church.

Patrick Dailey: So we do this once a month. Now, right now in the summer, we are doing this at market nights because we found that, during the fall, during the cold seasons, great to have a meal together, great to have everybody [00:23:00] come under one roof. In the summer, that's where you have a lot of market nights, you have a lot of events and vendors going on. We're gonna have to... We're gonna find a booth, and we're gonna do the same thing.

Laurie: Wow. So you do it at the markets.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm.

Laurie: Oh.

Patrick Dailey: Yep. Exactly.

Laurie: That is awesome. And so what... for people listening. First off, I'm thinking in my head, my kids are in their 20s.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: We hit the tail end of parenting when STEM was becoming.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Laurie: So, for those of you, who maybe doesn't know what STEM is, there's a lot of schools, educations that have caught onto STEM, which is science, technology, and math. The E doesn't mean anything, does it.

Patrick Dailey: Engineering.

Laurie: Oh, science, technology, engineering, and math. Then it kinda became STEAM in some areas because some kids are in the science and technology, and they want arts.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm. Right.

Laurie: And so, that is what STEAM means.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm

Laurie: For people in their churches who are in churches with a maybe a little more of a bean counter mentality of, " well, we're investing all this time, and these people aren't ending up at church."

Patrick Dailey: Hmm.

Laurie: You know, the VBS mentality. We just put on a VBS, and we had 100 kids, and nobody came back, and they [00:24:00] start looking that as a failed event.

Patrick Dailey: Right. Right.

Laurie: How would you speak to that if you have people in the community coming who never, ever come back to church on a Sunday?

Patrick Dailey: Yeah, so part of it is consistency, right? Is seeing who, who shows up the first time, who shows up the second. And then also, these kind of things, when you have a big VBS event, for example, and let's say you have 200 kids that show up. Well, if you only have two that start attending your church, you have to celebrate that win. You have to celebrate...

Laurie: What if you have none though? What if you have none.

Patrick Dailey: Right, if you have none, you still keep at it. You still keep at it because it's knowing we're planting seeds with people. And it's in the same way, if you're out on the street proclaiming the gospel, right, you're doing street evangelism, how many show up there? Well, you don't really know. You might have none. You might have people against it. And it's... You look at it as no different than any sort of evangelism event. You look at it as no different as a VBS event.

Laurie: Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: It's consistency because what you have to think, [00:25:00] you're building trust with people. When you're looking at the unchurched and the dechurched, the similarity is people want to know that they feel safe entering your building, and that's the biggest feedback I've ever heard is, "You know, I came here three times. You've never forced anything. It's good to get to know you personally. I feel safe here." Then they start asking, and it's slow. It's not a fast-burning thing, and I know, like a lot of event-driven things, it's quick, quick, quick.

Laurie: Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: But you have people who become very loyal. They become very loyal to the church. They become a part of it, and they see how you are living your life, how you're conducting yourself, all these different kind of things. I know that we've had quite a few families who have joined, but it's taken, like, about three, six, even a year to get to the point where... But when they're in, they are in.

Laurie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: It's building that trust 'cause think about it. You have some people where it's you... Child- [00:26:00] Then if you're a parent, your children need to be safe, right? That's like number one. And then they need to feel safe, where you have people saying, "Well, you know, I, I, I, I was wondering if you were gonna be harsh or you're gonna be negative or whatever."

It's like, "No, just, keep coming. That's all right." And it's a different... not only is it a different metric, it's a different mindset. Because to tell a board, to tell elders, like, "Hey, well, we're working on this one family," it's not a number, but it's a name, and Christ knows us by name.

We're to do the same thing. We're to know people by name, and how are you doing? You see them in the... And what's really cool is if you lean into kids having a good time, families feeling safe, they talk. They will talk about it, and they're like, "I wanna go back to that church that had the fun thing for kids," or, "I wanna go to this church. They didn't force anything. I feel safe."

Laurie: Or when they're 30 or 40, telling somebody, "Wow, my positive church experience." And maybe they never even went to [00:27:00] church, but they remember that.. And I think it's really important not to turn this into a manipulative strategy, that we're gonna do this so that we grow our church. We see that a lot.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: There's gotta be that open, or I would hope there would be that open-handedness of we're just gonna be like Jesus. We're gonna meet the community. We're gonna, you know And I often use that illustration, Jesus had 5,000 on a hillside. And a lot more, and they didn't come back.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Laurie: Jesus ended up on a cross, and even His faithful few were gone. And yet we still look at Jesus's life and say, gosh, He like, He did His Father's will. And.

Patrick Dailey: Exactly.

Laurie: So not to link that, the numbers thing.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: Before we run out of time, I really wanna talk about the post-Christian age. Is there anything else that you wanna make sure to get ... I'm positive we're gonna have more conversations, and I know you're gonna be back for the Pastors Leading Well conference

At the end of the week. But is there anything else that, that you really wanna talk about before we talk about the post-Christian age?

Patrick Dailey: We can go right in. Let's go into the post-Christian age. That's fine. Yeah.

Laurie: I find this interesting, the reason I caught this, I'm not sure which website of yours it was on or if it was linked to an article, [00:28:00] but the term the post-Christian age, what, we see a lot in Small Church Ministry are people just blaming the culture. "The culture is this," and, "Nobody wants to go to church," and, "Nobody cares."

And, you know, it takes people into this blame, but this. There's kind of a bitter feeling for a lot of the churched people. That the culture's to blame. And, you know, I look at Jesus' culture, it was messed up.

Patrick Dailey: Right.

Laurie: And Jesus didn't spend time talking about blaming the culture. The culture's... I don't know. It's not the fault of the culture that the church is where we are.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: The church can be vibrant and healthy, and, you know, living in community no matter what's happening. So does that link with the post-Christian age?

Patrick Dailey: Yeah. So on the church end, you have culture war, right? That happens where it's waging war on, you know, we're against this political party or we're against this kind of thing. So you have the...

Laurie: We're against soccer on Sunday.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah. Right. Exactly.

Laurie: That's what it's... Like we hate soccer and sports, and like I'm, oh, I'm so over it.

Patrick Dailey: So what happens [00:29:00] is when you have. Let's use soccer as the example. So let's suppose you, you go to a church and they say, "We, we are against sports. We're against soccer. Let's just say that as the example. What happens is that they end up having to make a decision on, "Well, I, I like soccer, but I like Jesus. Can't I love both? Why do I have to pick, make this decision between soccer and the church," right?

So you have that kind of mindset. And when you think of how that ties into the post-Christian age, it's where you have people who grew up in churches, and they're like, "Okay, well, wait a minute. I love Jesus, but I don't like the church. Well, wait a minute. If we're followers of Christ, it should be I love Jesus and I love the church and I love Christians."

So there's clearly a discrepancy that's happened. And when you look at the Pacific Northwest, when you look at, um, this kind of area, it's, you can't assume, you can't assume, number one, everyone's Christian, but you also can't assume that everyone [00:30:00] has a positive view on Christianity. So that's what I mean by, by post-Christian, is that it's kind of an age period where Christianity is not the dominant religion, where it's not the dominant faith, and you have to look at things like a mission field.

And that kind of mission field is building relationships with people where they're at, and it's, "Okay, how, how do you understand Jesus," right? "How do you understand the church?" You'd be surprised the answer, and it's a lot of this kind of skepticism. And I, I find it amazing how when it comes to Jesus, they have a very positive view of him.

But when it comes to the church, maybe not so much. And it's thinking, well, I want to point people to Jesus. And I want them to get into church, so I gotta find a way to make sure there's no more of that discrepancy. So when it comes to, , what kind of hill do you wanna die on, right? You gotta pick your battles.

My mother would always tell me this when I was growing up. "You gotta pick your battles wisely." Well, it's the same thing when it comes to churches. Is soccer really [00:31:00] a battle you want to fight tooth and nail to the point you lose people because of that? Or is focusing on Jesus being the only way to salvation, is that the hill you wanna die on?

So you gotta think of these kind of things in picking those kind of battles. And so, I mean, that's the reality of what we live in, when we think about this.

Laurie: Well, I think, and I don't wanna, I don't wanna shame people who feel like this. Like, I think the intention, I think the intention comes from a good place. We miss when everything was closed on a Sunday,

Patrick Dailey: Oh, of course. Of course.

Laurie: And we really love that there was a value of the church, when people used to value the church.

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm

Laurie: And in different areas, like in some churches there... I mean, in some, um, communities they're still doing, like, church in school. Like there is a Bible clubs that meet. In other places there's not. I understand, like, that feeling of loss or it shouldn't be But how do we shift our mindset? And should we? I mean, I obviously think we should, but should we shift our mindset from fighting this culture is not what it should be? Like, like what does that [00:32:00] do to us to shift to say, "Hey, but the culture is what it is," and how do we minister within it?

Patrick Dailey: Yeah, so I think the biggest shift that you can make is focusing on establishing trust. That's the biggest thing, right? There's a famous saying that, trust but verify, right? And you're establishing trust, and they're going to verify that trust with you. And that's very different because, you know, when we think 10, 20 years ago, it was assumed that you could trust any pastor.

They were, that they were, you know, doing the Lord's work. They were good people, all these different kind of things. But here, because of all the controversies and all the-

Laurie: Scandals.

Patrick Dailey: The terrible things that are going on.

Laurie: Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: It's I'm going to establish trust with you, and I want you to know that you are, you're loved and you're safe. That's a huge different mindset to, well, you know, let's talk about the worship experience, right? Let's talk about the fog machines, and let's talk about... No, it's focusing on those relationships, establishing trust with people. And I think, when we think of building that kind of trust, that [00:33:00] varies from person to person, and that's a much diff- And I'll tell you, it's been a very big shift for me,

Laurie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: In doing this, meeting people where it's, well, you know, I'm gonna, I use the KJV version as the prime example.

Laurie: Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: It's like, well, if you, if you wanna keep bringing the KJV, you are more than welcome here. You are, you can come here, and you can read it. There's, I'm not gonna fight you on that. Or, if life happens, you know, if you've been through, if you've been through a divorce or you've been through, a death in the family, you're still welcome here.

And we're gonna, we're gonna seek God together, and we're gonna worship him together. We're gonna...

Laurie: Yeah.

Patrick Dailey: So it's just kind of like just a lot, huge mindset shift.

Laurie: Yeah, you know, last week on the podcast, Kale Yu was talking about some similar things like, you know, the fog machine and that kind of thing. Like, like people aren't looking for that these days, and I know some people are.

Patrick Dailey: Right. Right.

Laurie: The, vast majority of people today really are looking for a safe place.

They're looking for authenticity and [00:34:00] how do we offer that as a church? And our program mentality of thinking we gotta keep doing and giving more, like, like if we could just calm that down a little bit and think of what it means and what it looks like. And it's not gonna be the same number counting growth scale that we've used for decades. You know? Like it, it's just It is a different age, and I actually like the shakeup. I think it's better.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: I think the churches who are moving into authenticity and trust and building comm- Like, they're the ones who are gonna make it, in the next, you know, few decades of the church, in my opinion. That's my guess,

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: It's really gonna be the people who are focused on trust and relationship and authenticity. There's a little bit of pride letting go of we don't have the biggest VBS, we don't have the biggest church, we're not growth. What gives you hope about the future of the small church, let's say.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah, I think that, you know, when, when you go about in the community and you ask them, you know, "How's your spiritual journey?" You'll find... Or ask them questions, "What do you believe in?" We [00:35:00] find there are people that are spiritual but not religious, and that's a good thing because there's an openness to the spiritual realm.

Begin having those conversations about Jesus, and it's kind of a, that gives me hope, you know, knowing that there is still openness to Christ even though they use different language of spirituality and whatnot. I think of how wonderful it is for the church to be able to be present, be authentic, be real with them.

Sharing about, you know, it was hard for me to begin to talk about my own battles and my own struggles, telling stories of my life. What do you mean? I should tell about what kind of person I was before I was a Christian? Get out of here. It's like those things that relate with people that, oh, a pastor, a volunteer is a real person.

They're just like me, and they can have that sense of relatability. And that gives me so much hope that in terms of new believers and, the church existing, especially in, [00:36:00] you have your small churches, you have your small towns. You think about it. You build those relationships, and what better way to do it when you are a small church, right?

You can build those wonderful friendships and relationships that are genuine. They're not fake or fabricated. They are real.

Laurie: Yeah. Well, we will be sure to drop some of your links in the show notes. But if people wanna connect with you, learn a little more about Steam Night or about Ontario Community Church, where should they go?

Patrick Dailey: Yeah. So, you can visit the church website. It's ontariocommunitychurch.org. You can also check out my website. That's patrickjosephdaly .com. And so, you can find me on social media. It's iampatrickdaly, and Ontario Community Church. It's @ontariocommunitychurch.

Laurie: We'll be sure to drop those links in the show notes. And if you're able to hear more from Patrick at the the conference at the end of this week, if you're listening live, if you're listening later, I always feel bad to talk about these awesome events cause people are gonna listen a year later, and go " I missed it." Don't [00:37:00] worry. We have stuff going on all the time for small churches.

Patrick Dailey: Yeah.

Laurie: We never have a one and done event. But at the end of this week there is a Leading Well in a Small Church conference, and this is our first conference we've actually done. it's free, but it's the first one we've done that actually is exclusive to pastors. We have spent six years pouring into volunteers and laypeople, and I'm so passionate about that, and, this one is for pastors. So if you're a pastor, if you know a pastor, please share about this event. It's pretty life-changing to hear small church people speaking to small churches. Like, it is, it's so different.

It's very other, and the topics, the conversations, the pastors we have, like, they're gold. So if you can get there, get there. Grab a free ticket at smallchurchsummits.com. We will drop the link in the show notes. We can't wait to see you there. Patrick, thank you for being with us today. Like, cannot wait to talk to you more.

Patrick Dailey: Oh, absolutely.

Laurie: We're gonna have more conversations. I don't know how or where, but we will. And for those of you listening, wherever you're listening from, our listening audience is pretty broad and wide. And if [00:38:00] you're on a treadmill, if you're at work, if you're off in the UK, if you're in the Philippines, we love you.

We're glad that you chose to spend your time with us today. We are pro small churches. We see small churches making a difference everywhere no matter what the numbers are. And it's like these little dots of light. I can picture the globe right now in my head with these little dots of light.

Patrick Dailey: Hmm. Right.

Laurie: When they do those connection things, that's really how, how the church is growing,

Patrick Dailey: Mm-hmm.

Laurie: By these little dots of light. because we're-- you know, Jesus' church isn't contained in one locality. And so, so excited to be connected to all of you. So until next week everybody, we'll see you later, and, be a light . ​ [00:39:00]