The Wiccan Rede or the Golden Goose

In this thought-provoking episode of Pagan Coffee Talk, Lord Knight and Oswond dive deep into one of the most debated topics in modern witchcraft and pagan spirituality: the Wiccan Rede and the Threefold Law. Challenging mainstream beliefs found in contemporary Wiccan practice, they explore the origins, meaning, and misconceptions surrounding these widely accepted concepts in the pagan community.

The discussion begins with the historical roots of the Wiccan Rede, tracing its appearance in publications like The Green Egg during the mid-20th century, and questioning its evolution into what many now treat as a rigid spiritual law. Instead, the hosts emphasize that the Rede is best understood as advice or guidance—not dogma, highlighting its linguistic roots and broader context within witchcraft traditions. They break down the full meaning of the Rede beyond the commonly quoted “harm none” phrase, shedding light on its deeper, often overlooked teachings connected to Sabbats, ritual practice, and traditional lore.

A major focus of this episode is the critique of the Threefold Law, often interpreted as the idea that any energy or action—positive or negative—returns to the sender three times over. Lord Knight argues that this belief introduces dogma into a spiritual path that traditionally rejects rigid rules, instead framing magical work through the lens of energy dynamics, personal responsibility, and cause-and-effect. Rather than a supernatural punishment system, the return of energy is described as a natural consequence of one’s own actions and decisions within the fabric of reality.

Throughout the episode, listeners are encouraged to rethink the role of ethics, morality, and accountability in witchcraft. The hosts stress that true spiritual growth comes not from fear-based rules or external enforcement, but from self-discipline, conscious choice, and personal integrity. They contrast imposed belief systems with self-imposed standards, arguing that authentic practitioners should act מתוך intention and understanding—not fear of karmic backlash or divine retribution.

Additional topics include the misuse of karma in paganism, the difference between dogma and spiritual philosophy, and the importance of developing independent thought within magical and religious practices. The conversation also critiques trends in modern pagan culture, such as over-reliance on tools, rituals, and external validation, instead advocating for inner work, meditation, and direct spiritual experience.

This episode of Pagan Coffee Talk offers a bold, no-nonsense perspective on Wiccan ethics, the Wiccan Rede, the Threefold Law, karma, and modern witchcraft practices, making it essential listening for anyone seeking a deeper, more critical understanding of pagan spirituality and the foundations of magical practice.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:38

Welcome to Pug and Coffee Talk. I'm Oswond, and I have with me Lord Knight. Today, Lord Knight, I would like to discuss.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

People only knew how bad I cringe for this part.

SPEAKER_04 0:53

I want to discuss the Wick and Reed and the threefold law. Oh okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Well, first of all, let's start with the whole entire concept. First we've got to know where in the hell Wick and Reed came from. Right. As far as I know, and remember, and from research and Lord Man and all this, that the Wick and Reed showed up one day, I think, in the 50s or 60s, at a publication called The Green Egg. Yes. I'm not sure exactly what year. And from my understanding, this is the first time anybody has ever seen this. That's my understanding. Lady Sheba and the Laws were written sometime, I think, before or during that time. And we're somewhat told we we got this from, you know, other sources. Well, you know, anything in crafts always from other sources. If people only understood how long it takes to research stuff in crafts. Oh no. But uh first of all, let's think about it this way. Let's start with the read and understanding what in the world it is that we're actually talking about. First of all, the real read's what, like two, three pages long? Um yeah, I think it's about two pages. All right. It's more than that. You know, these eight words, there's stuff in there about the Sabbaths, and there's stuff in there about Elder B the Lady's tree. Right. Burn it not, curse you'll be. Well, I'm sorry, if you've ever burnt elder, you understand why in the world that curse is. Right. Because that shit stinks. Absolutely. Oh god, yeah. It reads. But the word read, from my understanding, and I could get you to look this up right quick, the definition of read means advice, not law.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

According to Merriam Webster, read comes from Middle English readin', which means to counsel, order, decide, guide, govern, realize, grasp the meaning of, interpret, explain, look at, and understand.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

All right. Kind of like the golden rule that they have in Christianity do unto others as you would have do it done to you. Right. This is what the read really is. Okay, because the whole entire threefold law it talks about and craft cannot exist. Why not? Because we don't believe in dogma. This brings dogma into the religion. And if you understand dogma, dogma is the gun to your head to force you to behave a certain way. If I am wrong on that definitions.

SPEAKER_04 3:50

Yes, we love our definitions. Again, according to Miriam Webster, the essential meaning of dogma is a belief or set of beliefs that is accepted by the members of a group without being questioned or doubted, taught by a religious organization. Something held as an established opinion, a definite authoritative tenant.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

And that authoritative tenant in Christianity is you either do this or you sin and you go to hell. Right. Again, to me it is the gun to your head. So the whole entire threefold law was is dogma. It has to be removed from craft. We have to hold ourselves to a higher standard.

SPEAKER_04 4:41

Okay, but what about whatever you send forth comes back to you? Well, we do believe that.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

We do, we do believe that. Again, the energy is always going to return to you because it's your energy.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

Right. So how's the threefold law?

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Well, again, it's your energy. Think about it like this. Before an operation, you can give blood to be used on yourself during surgery. All right. Now putting that blood back into you during surgery when you're losing blood, you're not gaining or losing anything. Okay. It's your blood, and because it's your blood, the chances of rejection are zero. Because it's your blood. Same thing with this energy. It's your energy. It don't really affect you one way or another. The energy is going to come back to you.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

But you don't believe it's multiplied?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Not necessarily. I believe there's an equal and opposite reaction. We talked about this during that the backlashes and spells that they don't really exist. Okay. It don't exist because again, there are equal and opposite reactions. The reactions that we are talking about is that we cast a spell. We're basically throwing a stone into a stream. Upstream to change that stream forever. And the perceived backlash there is when other people have to move out of the way for this spell. Okay. And other things, and that actually wind up affecting us that we didn't see happening. That's all it is. That's not backlash, that's stupidity.

SPEAKER_04 6:18

Okay, but again, the the threefold law you just don't see that it really exists. It really doesn't. That's all part of dogma and we don't deal with dogma.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

We don't deal with dogma. It don't make no sense to me. Because again, we hold ourselves to those standards. We hold ourselves to these ethics and morals. It's nobody is sitting there forcing us to do this. We do it of our own free will.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

All right? So somebody theoretically could hold themselves to that dogmatic standard. Right. But don't force it on anybody else because the rest of us or there's other people who don't believe that.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Right. Well, again, it's like our our our belief about coming to ritual. Okay? If your ox falls in a ditch on Sunday, get your ox out of the ditch. If your ox falls in a ditch every Sunday, either kill the ox or fill in the ditch. You should want to go to rituals. You should want the communion with the deity. If you don't, you don't need to be part of a religion. Okay. Do you see what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_04 7:28

How's that tie in with a threefold law?

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Because you're the one making the decisions. Nobody's forcing you. Nobody's putting a gun to your head. Okay. Which would you rather have? Would you rather have people respect you because of you or because they might be losing their job if they don't. I mean, I don't know about you. Yeah, I'm gay. I've been in companies and stuff like that in which the following scenario happens. Some people in your department make some off-color jokes, whatever, and ain't that to me it ain't that big of a deal and ain't no worse than what I've heard anywhere else. Right. But yet somebody looked at me and was like, Well, you should go to HR and complain. They're making fun of gay people. Okay. What's that going to do? They're just not going to do it because they're scared to lose their job. I'm putting a gun to their head. Either you behave the way I want you to, or you're not going to work here.

SPEAKER_04 8:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Instead of you treating me this way or you not telling that because you think it might be harmful.

SPEAKER_04 8:29

Well, you know, it's I I was in a situation similar to that. I mean, we were in a locker room and changing clothes, getting ready for work, working a hospital, so we were changing the scrubs. And there was another gay guy and a straight guy, and they had this rapport with each other, and you know, they made fun of each other all the time. And the straight guy said something could could be perceived as offensive to the other guy. And then he realized I was in the locker room, and he came to me later and he was like, Um I didn't offend you when I said that, and I'm like, no. That's a lot to offend me, but I I get that. That's that's that whole dogma.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Right. I mean, to me, this is more respectful because he came to you of his own free will.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

Right, but it's still that dogma that says I could have taken him to HR for that.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

That's my point, though. Going to HR and forcing him to come to you and apologize versus him actually coming to you and apologizing. Right. There's a difference there to most witches. All right. We want people to do things because they want to. A doctor wanting to or someone wanting to heal someone just to heal them versus okay, it's your job. You have to do this.

SPEAKER_04 9:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04 9:53

Yeah, I I believe that makes perfect sense because even if it is your job as a doctor, you should want to do it. If you don't want to do it, you shouldn't be doing it.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Shouldn't be doing it. It baffles my mind. I mean, yeah, I've done some crammy jobs. I used to work in housekeeping for a long time. But there was a long time I loved my job. Right. Because I was just doing really weird stuff, all the weird stuff in housekeeping that nobody else wanted to do. I enjoyed it. Right. And it made me good at my job. I mean, I don't feel any less about it or anything like that. And if you don't respect me because I'm not doing my job, that's your problem, not mine. That's your bias that you need to deal with. Because I think we've gotten off the subject here. But again. It's just an advice, it's just there. And again, the original from the green egg said by the weekend laws, plural. Alright? Everybody who's took that goddamn ass off needs to be fucking slapped. Right. Everybody who wants to put the word read in for the word law needs to be slapped and told to shut up because you don't know what the word means. Right. The read is not law. By the weaken law, ye must, in perfect love and perfect trust, by the weekend laws. It's laws. Right. Lady Sheba, pull them out. And for those who will sit there and go, well, you know what? There's just some stuff in there that's just arcane and no longer needed, so we're not going to follow any of them. Well, you know what? In South Carolina, it's legal for you to go and pull your wife out and smack her around open-handed on Sunday on the court steps. Anybody doing that shit either? Right. But does that mean we can ignore all the other laws in our state? Just because this dumb law's there, just because you can't have what? You can't use an elephant to plow your fields.

SPEAKER_04 11:53

Or you can't park your camel on the court steps courtyard steps.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Or you can't put a pie in a window. We're not going to follow any of those laws. This is the logic that I see a lot of people use for the wicked laws. Oh, some of them are just outrageous, so we're not going to listen to any of them. What the fuck? Well, it's No, no, no. No. You take your ass up there and tell the and tell uh the IRS that their laws are antiquated and they don't need to be around by unless how fast you get thrown in jail.

SPEAKER_04 12:21

Right. But it's important. The laws are important. I mean, because it's all part of history. Right. It's part of our history.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

It tells you how to operate a temple. Right. What to do, how to deal with certain behaviors, how not how can you not use such things?

SPEAKER_04 12:36

It's like anything else in this religion. There's cryptic information. You got to go through all this other stuff to get to the important stuff. And it's somewhere in the middle, it's somewhere scattered here and there. You just gotta dig through it. Have the patience and dig through it. Right. The information is there.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

It's there. It's obviously it's glaring. And I'm sorry, if you know it, yes, it it stares you, it slaps you in the face. But again, these people going around in town the wick and read like it is some holy crail thing are false. Right. It ain't. It was a pretty poem somebody wrote and put in Green Neck.

SPEAKER_04 13:21

Right. It is not the Ten Commandments handed down from God.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Or anywhere else. It is a pretty little poem and it's nice advice. It would be nice to live this way. It is our golden rule. Right. It is something we can strive for and all this other stuff, but it's not something I believe that is absolutely 100% plausible. Right. And for those who are going out going, hey, you know, but I live this way and I'm fine, that's great. But there's a ton of fucking people it's not working for. Right. Because it's not real. It's only real in your head. You only justify it because you want to justify it. And sit there going, Well, there was this and there was that. I'm sorry. I've seen people cast curses. Hey, and they're still walking around just fine. Right? Nothing's happened to them. I've seen people cast spells, witches, very powerful witches, cast spells for businesses and stuff like that, and not a damn thing. Oh, well, they did it right. They did that. No.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

No.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

No. What did they do? They've removed dog didn't realize, okay, I have these morals. I got these three morals right here that are for standard from craft, and I am going to uphold them no matter what. I am going to hold myself to this standard and the people around me to this standard. Right. All right? Because we've we've talked about this. We've gotten rid, me and you have gotten rid of contractors and stuff and told them not to come back just because they couldn't show up on time when they said they did. Oh yeah. Because they couldn't keep the word. I am holding this person that's not part of our to a standard that they don't seem to understand, and flat out tell them this.

SPEAKER_04 15:03

And I'm sorry you've lost the business, but you know what? Don't tell me something and then not do it.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

And not do it. Don't tell me you're going to show up at 10 and 10 comes and goes.

SPEAKER_04 15:14

You're operating a business.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

You're operating a business. You told me this.

SPEAKER_04 15:18

If you can't uphold what you told me, how am I supposed to trust that you're going to do the job right?

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

How am I supposed to trust that you're not going to cut corners?

SPEAKER_01 15:27

All right. Now you and again, everybody wants to believe in this whole threefold law. It's not real. It's a dogma trap. It is to force people to behave a certain way. So which word you admire more? Someone who lives around sin and not participate? Or someone who don't know sin at all and can't participate because they don't know it. They don't understand it. Right. Ignorance is not a solution to me. We've already proven this over and over again. Sometimes men take their jobs way overboard on protecting women to the point where we have daughters and sisters and stuff like that that we have protected to the point to where they are about as dumb as a brilliant pad. Right. Because they don't know anything, because they've been overprotected.

SPEAKER_04 16:18

And that's not helping anything.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

And that's not helping them. That's not making them any moral or anything like that. It's making them a child that has to live in a locked up world and be protected. Mm-hmm. That makes no sense to me. But yet you have to hold yourself to these standards. It's you. It's nobody else is going to do it. It's not my job to do it. Right. My only job is to, hey, I I'm a priest, yeah, that means I call you out on your bullshit.

SPEAKER_04 16:46

Well, I mean, in a way, it is something that that we hold others to. I mean, when we hold others to those standards, we are kind of forcing that on them, but it's still their decision to do it or not. Right. And you know, we're we're saying these are these are your consequences, especially like with a contractor, these are your consequences. Either you're gonna do the work or you're not. Right. It's just it's that black and white.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Well, I mean, like for me. For my for me, if one of my students, one of my members get mad at me or whatever, or I'm mad at them, some of them might not realize that. Yeah, if they pick up the phone, I still gotta pick up and talk to them. And I'm still gonna try to them about their problem or their issues or the answer the question that they got the best I can when they call.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

Right, because you took that oath.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Because I took that oath. That doesn't end just because somebody's mad at you. Oh no. All right, and just because you sit there and call somebody out doesn't mean necessarily that, hey, you know what, you didn't do this when you said you were.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

Right. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you're mad or that you're, you know, furious over all of this. It's just, hey, just letting you know.

unknown 18:10

No.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

And if you get upset about it, that's your problem.

SPEAKER_04 18:14

Right. I'll still be here to help you.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Working on the work and stuff, and the reason you're probably feeling upset about it is because you know you're doing this.

SPEAKER_04 18:24

But it's not my dogma that I'm forcing on you.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

It's not my dogma I'm forcing on you. It's your own it's what you're doing to yourself. Right. Is that making sense? We have to remove dogma. It cannot be part of our religion. Because we have to hold ourselves to that standard. It can't be because we're scared that Cronunos is going to come and slam dance us in the middle of the night. You know, it can't be because, oh, we believe that Arianrod will not let us into the summer lands into her forever feast because we didn't do something right. Right or we didn't behave in this way. It don't work that way. You have to pick your standards. You have to pick, okay, here's what I'm gonna do, and here's what I'm not gonna do, and this is where I'm gonna stay. Because again, those who don't hold themselves to that standard or allow that standard to slip, to me, that is a weakness of your character, which goes back to you're not meditating, to you don't know yourself, you're not dealing with your issues. Right. Has nothing to do with dogma. Dogma can't be changed. Karma comes from Hinduism. It is not part of craft. It's never been a part of craft. The reason they use it is, hey, if you don't do better in this life, you're gonna have to go and live a worser life in the next lifetime. Right. That's dogma. I mean, because we already we've already talked about some ethics and morals, and to the fact is that good and evil really depends on which side of the river you're on. If you're on the side where they eat bodies, hey, it's great. It's ethical. If you're on the side that don't, it's not.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

But now if you're like most witches and are standing there in the middle of the stream listening to both sides, you're kind of like, I understand why in the world y'all think eating a body is morally okay. And I can understand why y'all think it's not. How about this? Y'all don't eat bodies, y'all do eat bodies, and shut the fuck up about it already. Right. Because it's not your religion, it's not your belief system. Right. And forcing someone to believe this And I hate to say this, this is what I see in the Wiccan community, in the pagan community at large. Right. I sit here and watch this. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta do your your daily card and you've got to do this, and you gotta do that, and you gotta do this, to the point where you ain't got shit to do. Like most people still do not understand. The fact is, guided meditations are doing meditation with training wheels on. Right. It's not needed. Once you've learned what that feeling's like and how to get there, you don't need to do a guided meditation anymore. It's irrelevant. I know a lot of people who came to me and they're like, well, we're still doing this guided meditation, and I go to sit down and meditate. I'm already there. Okay, then just do that. Skip the guided part.

SPEAKER_04 21:26

Right. Or you get those people, well, I've been doing this guided meditation for six months, and I just don't feel like I'm getting anywhere. Take the training wheels off.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Take the training wheels off.

SPEAKER_04 21:39

You're following that meditation once you know what's going on. And you're not doing your thing. You're not dealing with your stuff.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

No, you're you're you're listening to what in the world somebody's rambling on about about symbols and and and your inner points. That does no creativity for you.

SPEAKER_04 21:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

That's somebody else's creativity.

SPEAKER_04 22:00

And that's somebody, again, that's somebody telling you what to visualize, when to visualize it.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

What to visualize. That's theirs. Not yours. Not yours. And this is what I keep on seeing a lot over and over and over again at the back. And it's it's upsetting me to the point to where, you know, people need to stop. This is supposed to be about spirituality, not if you can cast a goddamn fucking spell. Right. Not that you can get what in the world you want out of this and fuck everybody else. But no, no, no, no. We got people trying to curse moons and do bottles and all this other stuff. And don't want to do worship the gods in sacred space. They want to go off and do other stuff and put up fifty thousand videos of freaking hard fucking readings. If a fucking witch cannot predict the fucking future, you need to stop what in the world you're doing right now and back up a hell of a lot. Right. Because my first degrees can do this shit. Right. Most traditionalists I know can do this piece of cake. I don't know what the hell these Wiggins are doing to where in the world they have to have a fucking card reading every goddamn day.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

Yeah, it's not gonna change that much.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

It's not gonna change anything. And the the majority of them are so generalized, hell, they could just be anybody.

SPEAKER_04 23:27

Or you know, you've also got those that are, you know, they do all the unboxings and what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? This has nothing to do with spirituality, this has nothing to do with religion.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Well, no, first of all, you're spending money on crystals and herbs, and you should be in your fucking backyard working with those herbs. Right. So you can get those for free. And how many crystals do you really need? Some people have become con I mean, don't get me wrong. Crystals have certain powers and certain material tools. But they ain't all that in a bag of chips. No, they're not. Alright? You don't need fifty billion of them. You don't need to spend seventy-five thousand dollars on fucking stones.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

And if you're using stones to heal, once you got the negative energy, the negative energy of the sickness out, I've seen these people also take that stone and put it back on their shelves and then sit there and go, Oh, why am I sick all the time? I don't know. Could it be that you got sickness and all these fucking stones in your house? You put the energy there.

SPEAKER_03 24:33

Get rid of it. Go bury that shit.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Get rid of it.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

Go bury that shit.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

All right. Oh, I understand you spent$100 on this crystal and you don't want to throw it away, but you want to use it to heal these people, but it's making you sick, you dumbass.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

Really? You know what? If you're gonna do that, that's fine, but you need to find a way to cleanse it. You need to find a way to get rid of that energy that's in that crystal.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Because uh this energy don't work like it does for these possessed items or these items that have negative energy. What is that one doll that you watch? Annabelle. The doll that's supposed to be cursed. This is how Annabelle exists. Right. I mean, the pattern of behavior on this makes sense. Hey, I need negative energy to stay alive, so therefore I'm gonna I'm gonna do everything I can to depress and upset everybody around me so I can feed off that energy. Right. You get rid of sickness, it does the same thing. That energy wants to stay alive. It wants to stay there. And how's it gonna do that? Oh, by multiplying. Well, you know what? I can't make that person sick anymore, but this person that left this freaking stone in their house, I'm gonna give them every bit of the lung cancer they just took out of somebody else.

SPEAKER_04 25:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

And then I'll have something else to do.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

This makes no sense to me. No. People do this stuff and they do it to themselves the majority of the time. They do. All right? Again, the Wiccan Reed, it's advice. Quit holding it up like it's some sacred text from someone. It's not. Most of the traditionalists I know, we really don't believe this. We will pull out Lady Sheba's laws first and look at them. I think that's about it. I'm out of coffee. How about you? Is there something else you wanted to No, I believe that I believe I covered it. Would you like me to get off my soapbox now?

SPEAKER_04 26:37

Somebody else needs it.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Somebody needs the wood.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

Thanks for joining us for another thrilling episode of Pegan Coffee Talk. We are on Facebook, we're on Twitter, we are on YouTube. If you want to leave us a comment, fly on over to the YouTube channel. Uh leave us a comment there. You can drop us a line on Facebook, we're on Messenger. Join us next time. Alright, thanks, y'all.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

We travel down this trodden path, a maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing fires. And so it is the end of our days. So walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our days. So walk with me till morning.