Sorcery and Witchcraft - Is There a Difference?

In this thought-provoking episode of Pagan Coffee Talk, Oswin and Lord Night dive deep into the ongoing debate of sorcery vs. witchcraft, breaking down the key differences between these two paths of magical practice. This episode explores the contrast between ritualistic magic, high magic systems, and structured spellwork often associated with sorcery, versus the relationship-based, intuitive, and spiritually connected practice of witchcraft.

Discover how sorcery can be understood as a science of magic, relying on formulas, timing, and repeatable outcomes—similar to the scientific method—while witchcraft focuses on building personal connections with energies, spirits, and elemental forces. The discussion highlights how intention, experience, and relationship-building play a crucial role in authentic witchcraft practice, setting it apart from purely procedural magic systems.

Oswin and Lord Night also explore deeper topics within pagan spirituality, magical ethics, and modern witchcraft culture, անդրessing the loss of wisdom in today’s community. They challenge the rise of surface-level practices like spell jars and social media trends, emphasizing that true witchcraft is not just about casting spells, but about gaining knowledge, developing wisdom, practicing meditation, and taking personal responsibility.

This episode also examines the historical role of witches, druids, and magical practitioners as advisors, healers, and keepers of wisdom, rather than just spellcasters. Through references to figures like Merlin and ancient traditions, the hosts explain how the craft was once centered on guidance, experience, and decision-making, not just magical ability.

Listeners will gain insight into:

•  The difference between sorcery, witchcraft, and high magic
•  The importance of ethics, personal accountability, and keeping your word
•  How modern paganism and witchcraft communities have evolved—and where they may be losing their way 
•  Why experience, practice, and journaling are essential for developing real wisdom 
•  The balance between individual spiritual paths and community standards

Whether you’re new to witchcraft, paganism, or magical practice, or you’re an experienced practitioner seeking deeper understanding, this episode offers a bold and honest look at what it truly means to walk the path of the craft.

Please visit www.lifetempleseminary.org for more information and links to our social media. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Welcome to Peggy and Coffee Talk. I'm Oswin and I have with me Lord Noint. Today, let's talk about sorcery versus witchcraft. Why is that so funny?

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Oh God. Because I'm just sitting back thinking about all the trouble I'm about to get into. Well, you're gonna have to ask the question, you know, what's the difference between witchcraft and sorcery? Well, yeah, that's what I'm asking. Sorcery would be more to me the science of magic. Okay. All right. So if you look at the Golden Dome and the way they do things, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

You know, again, not my not my field of expertise, but I think I know enough to be able to say, you know, you have to make this wand, then you have to do this, then you have to have so many people to do a spell. Then you're gonna have to wait for a certain day and time. Make sense so far?

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Okay, so it's um kind of more like high magic. Well, what I consider to be high magic, where you're dealing with all these variables that have to come together.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Or more that ritualistic magic. Right, right. All right, where there's a difference in there is in witchcraft, we tend to make more of a personal connection with certain energies where in sorcery they don't. All their sorcery set up more like an equation. Does that make sense? We know if we do this at this time on this date when this is going on, we get this outcome.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

All right. So does that mean that?

SPEAKER_03 2:24

I mean, just like the scientific method, you know, we do this experiment in this way, we're always going to get this reaction.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

So does that mean that there's no religion involved?

SPEAKER_03 2:38

From my understanding, no, there's not.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

But there is in witchcraft, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:44

There's more of a well, it I don't want to say in there's religion and witchcraft, but there is more of this thought of a connection, a personal connection with these energies or beings.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Okay, because I was gonna say I have seen out on social media where people are talking about witchcraft, and they're all saying that witchcraft is not a religion.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

No, I mean, that's just what I said. It's just in witchcraft, we believe there should be a relationship with this energy.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

All right. So sorcery is more like science, witchcraft is more like a personal relationship.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

Right. And I hate to make it sound so simple, but yeah, it's sort of like a baker or something. They know what to do to make the cake always come out a certain way, right? Right. This is sort of what that golden dome or sorcery is that I've seen. There's no personal relationships, they do not care what these energies, if these energies have feelings or emotions or an actual personality or anything like that. They just pursue it as like electricity coming out of your wall. Gotcha. All right, where in craft there's a tendency to you have to build a relationship with this. You have to build a relationship with the elementals to use them. Just suddenly going to your circle and summon them and calling them. Yeah, they'll come. But there's a difference between having a personal relationship with them and them showing up and you commanding them to show up.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Right. Well, once a command, and the other is an invitation.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Well, I mean, in in both instances, uh, especially like in Casting Circle, yeah, it's still a command because we, you know, do summon them. You know, it's kind of like there was an agreement with us and the elementals that if we summon them in a particular way, they will show up regardless.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Right. But again, it's for us, it's more of a it's more of an invitation.

SPEAKER_03 4:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

And saying, hey, your invitation's still open.

SPEAKER_03 5:01

Right. Well, I mean, if you think about it, you need to come inviting a friend to your house and inviting a uh relative over to your house, you're still inviting both of them. Right. All right. What's the difference when they get there? Your friend's gonna act polite, maybe not go and open up your refrigerator or whatever, and just grab what in the world they want. A relative, a relative on the other hand, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Yeah, they're just gonna come in and make themselves at home.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

Right. My dad, my dad comes to see me and he opens up the refrigerator, turns around and looks at me, goes, Where's the bear? Right. A friend comes over and goes, Oh, can I have a beer if you have one? Do you see the difference there? Right. And that makes sense. And in craft, we're getting more of that relative that comes over.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

It's the familiarity with these energies that's different. You're still asking both of the relatives to show up. We're still both doing the same thing when cats in circle. The difference is we're calling a relative where they're calling a guest that's gonna act polite in a certain way.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

Which also brings up the whole entire thing of what is a wizard or a sorcerer or a mage or anything else like that, right? Right. These were classes of people that sat on courts, and this is like the king's court, so these are advisors.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Okay, but what about the magic aspect? I mean, how how was that an advisor?

SPEAKER_03 6:39

We used to be the craft of the wise. People did not come to us for our access to magics, everybody has access to magic. The Golden Dome just proved that they can do it without the religion. What people came to us for, the reason we held those jobs was for our wisdom, our knowledge, not for our access to magics.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

How did we get away from that?

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Well, I'm gonna say that's more popular culture and crap we got going on now. I mean, because there's stuff going on right now that I'm gonna tell you right now, if my elder was around, they wouldn't they'd be like livid. Oh, I guarantee it. All right, I mean, I'm about to be completely rude, but there is a woman out on YouTube in the past year who admitted that she couldn't keep her goddamn word, killed the thought form. And I'm sorry, if she would have done this while my elders and all that was in charge, this woman would have been shunned right away. But yet she's still got all these people watching her and all this. Nobody seems to know she broke her word. That is the most she is in essence a warlock. She's an oathbreaker. And to rebuild that part of her personality, she's gonna have to start back at scratch. So, and but yet people keep on going to go listen to her. That wisdom, that that ability for us to stand for what we actually believe in is gone. There's no wisdom. What wisdom we did have from like the wicked read has been chopped up and thrown into the damn bin so people can do that whole entire harm, none, do what you will, and use that as the plaque for their ethics and morals, which don't fucking work. This is a piece of wisdom, it needs to be put back into the wisdom category. Hence the reason it was called the wicked read. Read means advice, and that's what we used to give advice.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Well, I mean, how can we get back to that with the culture of what it is today? You try to give advice and somebody sees it as a personal attack, and then all of a sudden you're you know, you're a boomer, you're a gatekeeper, you're all these other things. Quit attacking me. How dare you?

SPEAKER_03 9:01

By sitting there and telling our community, here's my standard. This woman right here that broke her word, yeah, everybody should leave her channel. Everybody should downvote her. All right, whatever it takes. Because we can't have this, we can't have this behavior. We have to let the community know at large, we will not stand for this anymore. If you do not keep your word, we ain't got the time of day for you. And you're gonna have to work twice as hard to get it back.

unknown 9:28

Right.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

I mean, don't do it to begin with.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Your word should be your contract. I mean, it should be as good as a legal document.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

But no, we're no longer the wise. We don't give that advice. We oh, we'll we'll sit there and tell you how to do ooh, a spell for everything. Everybody wants to do the goddamn magics. Nobody wants to worship gods, nobody wants to learn, nobody wants to become wise. No, we want to do a damn sit there and watch a a freaking YouTube video on a day planner for a fucking wedge. How hard is it to do your goddamn fucking meditations? And that's it. Anything else thing you add on to you is your own dumb ass fault, you've allowed your mouth, you've allowed your ass to write a check that your mouth that you can't cover. Right. And you're gonna fall flat on your fucking face. Part of wisdom is knowing when you're getting yourself in too deep to go, no, no, I can't do that. Here's all I can handle.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:26

And it's fine. And it's fine to even start to go out to the thing going, oh no, no, no, no, I waited out in the water, I can't handle it. But that ain't what we do anymore. We don't take personal responsibility. And like I said, this woman's still got like a thousand or something followers, right? And yet everybody, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. She's what she's a fucking warlock. She broke her goddamn oath. She killed the fucking thought form. And everybody's still chering her on like she's the greatest thing ever. Makes no sense to me. But until our community as a group, as a large group of people, start looking at these people, doing the stuff, doing these unboxes, doing the stuff, going, we're done, you're not making fun of us anymore. You're not making us look like idiots anymore.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Yeah, that's that's gonna be hard to do.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

It's gonna be hard to do. But until people actually start demanding it when we're sitting there and you're listening to these so-called Wiccans or Wiccans who are part of the new age movement, sitting there going, Yeah, I see I did my self-dedication the other way. You don't know jack shit. Shut the fuck up. We're done hearing it. I was listening to a woman today sitting there going, oh yeah, and there's so much push to be, you know, and eat this food, and there's so much ethical. No, there's no goddamn ethic as morals about what in the hell you eat. You eat what in the world you want to eat. That's what craft teaches us. We do what we think we need to do for ourselves and fuck everybody else. It's not your place to tell me what in the hell that what foods I'm supposed to eat or not supposed to eat, if I'm supposed to be a vegetarian or a meat eater. It ain't none of your damn business. Shut up about it and quit pushing it on people.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Okay, well, then what about individual practice? I mean, you're you're saying we need to set these standards and all this other stuff. Isn't that the same thing? Aren't you pushing something on somebody else, telling them how to do their practice?

SPEAKER_03 12:26

I'm trying not to. What I'm trying to get people to understand is you have to make choices. There is training, there is involved, there are dangerous things about this religion. I know you've seen them, and I know you heard Lord Min talked about them, and these people who only do their ritual once a year, and that's their whole entire spiritual connection. The rest of the time they're doing fucking spells. This is not a witch.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Right. No, I completely agree with that. I mean, you you can't, it's like it's well, I mean, it's like going to church. You can't go to church once a year and call yourself a Christian.

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

There's more to it than that.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

You know, I mean, don't get me wrong. If you're if you're a Christian and you're like, okay, but you know, we're staying at home and you know, a member of our family's doing all of this, that's fine with me. Again, what you do in the privacy of your own homes, your business. And yeah, that might make you a Christian, but hell, I think that makes you probably a better closer of a Christian than one that actually goes to church.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Right, but that's what I'm saying. I'm I guess I didn't make it clear. There's there's more to it than just going to church. Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

You know, there's more to being a witch than just casting fucking spells. That's it, exactly. All right, there's more to it, and that's what we're trying to get. That's this is what I'm trying to get across to people. There's more to it. We used to be people of wisdom, of knowledge, and that ain't what we're getting. You get 15 damn things on how to do goddamn fucking spell jars. Nobody cares anymore. Nobody cares about your witches' ladders, nobody cares about all your 15 different altars. We don't care. We want wisdom, we want knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Well, we do. Well, we do, and I'm unfortunately there's not a whole lot of people out there that are actually seeking that knowledge.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

But no, but hence the reason. I mean, come on, look at our history throughout all the viziers, all the council, even Merlin. Merlin, if you listen, look at that story, it was less about Merlin's access to magic while he was in that story, and more about his wisdom.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Yeah, it really was.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

I mean, and again, when you read the stories, Merlin does very little besides telling Uther Pendragon, hey, there's a river underneath the mountain you're trying to build your, and you're not going to be able to do it. Right. That was the only magic besides, you know, the whole entire making Uther being able to sleep with his friend's wife or something to get Arthur.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

But yeah, again, look at that story. It was about his wisdom, not his magic. You know, I could be wrong on this. Could be, but I doubt it. On this one, I doubt it. People can hate me for everything I am because I'm sorry, y'all people are have got on my last nerves on this crap.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Well, I mean, it's just it's gonna be hard to get back to being a craft of the wise because everybody's definition of wisdom now is something completely different. You know, it's their knowledge of herbalism, it's their knowledge of gender magic, and that's great, and that's fine.

SPEAKER_03 15:45

But these are also the same people that I see sitting there telling everybody, no, it's okay, go ahead, spit in the wind.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

That don't have enough common sense to come out of the freaking rain. I mean, again, like I said, I saw this woman sit there for a good five minutes talk about how she felt like she was pressured to be a vegetarian because of the religion, which is bullshit.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah, that's bullshit. I've never heard anything.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

I've never heard that. And for and this is what I'm talking about. This is something stupid and mundane and needs to be decided by each individual. If you don't want to eat meat, then don't.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Right.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

But sitting there, but sitting, my point is is she was sitting there literally going, yeah, I have ethics and morals. I don't think you should do it. Well, that's fine and dandy. You don't. Now shut up about it. I mean, am I making sense there?

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yeah, I believe. I mean, you are to me.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

I mean, what diet you decide to do or whatever is your business. When does it even have to be brought up in cra craft? We don't care. Food's food.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Right. I mean, make your own damn decisions.

SPEAKER_03 16:57

If anything, if anything, it actually lends us more to actually eating meat because there's a bunch of stuff in craft about the whole entire hunter and prey aspect of life. No, no, no, no. That's what we're trying to do. We're gonna do ignore the stuff that we don't like, the yucky stuff, because God forbid this same woman go out and actually catch a rabbit and skin it and cook it.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

Because she can't do that. This is also probably one of the same people that are going to sit there and going, wait, if you just want to buy that, go to the store and get it. What what do we need to go back to work? Just get money and order it off Amazon. That's how we fix everything. Order it from Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Well, you know, Amazon is the marketplace now. Well, I mean, I know, but whatever you want, it's there. But that's my point.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Instead of us knowing what it's like to have to go out and to field dress a deer, and you got these people out here who who literally they've never gone out to experience that. We'll sit there and tell you this stuff. Well, I would sit there and tell you, well, you're getting on such and such case because they go down to the river every so often and wash some certain clothes out in the river with a rock. Go try it. Before you sit there and whine and tell me how stupid it is, do it.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Yeah, I mean, there's there's more to there's more to that than just washing with a rock.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

I mean, it's well, I mean, it's it's just like, you know, any of the ideas that we've thrown out there, like the divination or the meditations and stuff like that. All we look at you say, try them, see what happens. Our ethics and morals, the keep your word, be responsible for your action, be balanced, follow for three months. See what happens.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Do the divination, see what happens. You're not gonna lose anything. What three months of doing it this way? That that's it.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Yeah, I mean, that's then that's not a whole lot to ask, I don't think.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

Somebody pops up and goes, Well, you know, I did what he said for three months, and this is what I experienced. It might flop, it might not.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Yeah, and I mean, put that in your journal. Do the treat it like you would anything else. Write down your your observances and here's where people forget.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

This is where we get wisdom from. Right. We get wisdom from doing. It's one thing to sit there in a classroom and be told, okay, here's how this is gonna work, this is what's gonna happen, here's what you need to know. Uh almost on any subject you can think of, right? Right. You know, like you know, they taught you most of the stuff that happens. You you have education in music. And in school, in college, you were taught a lot about music, right? Music theory and some other things, right? But it did it teach you what to do, you know, if you were in the middle of a band or actually directing an orchestra and somebody fucks up.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Well, I mean, to some extent, yes. I mean, um, part of part of my training was directing, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:12

But again, there was a little bit when it actually happened, you don't remember everything that they taught you, you just know how to automatically cover that up. Right. I had to get I've seen you do it, I've seen you sing, I've seen you screw up, and knowing you screwed up because I was the one that had to sit there and listen to you sing the song five times. Right. I don't mean it bad, but it's one thing to hear a song once or twice, it's another thing to have to sit there what 10 times to get it right.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Unfortunately, you got tortured with the uh with the practice sessions.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

With the practice sessions, still good entertainment, but yeah, and then to see you up there actually performing and knowing when you messed up and knowing sitting there going, nobody else knows he did that. That kind of covering up comes from experience, it comes from wisdom. Right. To me, that can't necessarily be taught.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

It can't. You know, I remember talking to some folks uh who were just entering college when I what had already been there, you know, a year or two, and they were asking me about stuff like that, and I'm just like, you you just learn how to do it. There's no way there's no way for anybody to teach you. You just have to figure it out.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

And it's a lot, and the same pattern happens in craft where we will sit there and go, first time you do it, you're gonna be crappy at it. Second time you do it, you're gonna be crappy at it, but you're gonna be less crappy than you were the first time.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Right. And it's gonna keep on like that until you finally get good at it.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

See, right. And don't get me wrong, I understand. There is a difference. There are people out in the world that seem to have a natural talent. There are people out there in the world that have Have this natural talent that can just sink. No training whatsoever. You know, the people that can just play by ear the whole nine yards, these people exist. But again, I've sat there and I have you've had me listen to people that you know just know how to sing, and people have been trained. And you can actually hear a difference between the two. Sure, you can. My tone deaf self can even hear the difference. But when you have that person that has that natural talent and has been trained, oh now you're talking about a different level there. Right. You know, I've seen those people and they're kind of like, oh, um, that ain't natural. There's no way any guy can hit that note that high.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Well, you know, it's the same thing with craft. Right. You do have you do have those people who just they seem to be so natural at it. And then you've got those who are trained and are good at what they do. And then you've got those who have done both.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

Right. Those people could scare the shit out of you.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Right? Not naming any names.

SPEAKER_03 23:15

Not naming any names. You know, I there's a lot of people I have taught, and I'm kind of like, uh, if they ever figure out some of the stuff, uh, I'm gonna be in trouble.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Well, I'm hoping they do. Again, the difference between these is it is nothing more than that. Originally, the sorcerers and all this other stuff were just titles. All right, basically meaning advisors. I mean, come on, it's all throughout the druidic history of Britain. It's what the Druids did. They were the ones that were dispensing wisdom. You had every chieftain there had a druid by their side giving them advice.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

Their day-to-day job had nothing to do with magic, it had to do with their advice. Should we attack? Should we not attack? Should I attack this way? Should I maybe do a flaky move? Right. I mean, again, these are the kind of questions that I see where in the world these people are going to get asked. You know, should we should we plant this much more crops instead of this? You know, and a lot of people don't realize is, you know, in that wisdom and stuff, sometimes we have to see things different. When is the needs of the uh of the group more important than the needs of the one? When is the individuality one more important than the than the group? Right. I mean, that's where all this stuff comes from. And here's the real difference between us and wizards and sorcerers. At one point I don't think there really was a difference back in the day.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

That's interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

You know, honestly and truly, I think all these people and it's gonna sound a little strange when we talk about craft. I think because of the actual initiation process, if so if you're initiated into craft, that that somehow seems to connect you to this web of people that you might not ever meet. But they somehow have access to your knowledge and wisdom too. Hence the reason you could have pyramids in both, you know, Egypt and in Mexico.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:44

Because of that network, because this witch over here, this sorcerer over here had the idea they were a member of craft, that became part of that network of information we have, which allowed somebody, uh, another witch who was created in Mexico to come up with the same idea, but slightly different.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Yeah, that's that's an interesting theory.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

Right. That craft itself is a not so much of a religion, but a type of person. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 26:16

No, not really.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

That the member of craft they have this extra something that allows them access to more knowledge and wisdom than they could actually learn in a day.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Or in a lifetime. All right, yeah. And it's again, this is no, this is not restrained by oh no, no, no. This was just the Celtic people. No, this was the world over. Does that make sense? Right. In other words, I honestly believe if I ran across a witch from South Africa, they wouldn't recognize me as a member of craft, just like I would them. Even though our belief systems might be a little different, there are going to be certain underlying concepts that we share.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Yeah, that no, that makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

You know, hence the reason, you know, you hear this whole entire thing, especially Lady Keegan saying it all the time, that all the priests that she have met has met over the years all seem to be cut from the same cloth, even though we're all part of different traditions. Because I know she met one and she's like, oh my god, it was just like talking to you. Yeah, I remember that. Well, I think I'm out of coffee.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

I'm out of coffee too. Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at LifeTempleSeminary.org to learn more. And you can also find links to all our social media Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and Reddit.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a steel blazing fires. And so it is the end of our day, so off with me till morning break. And so it is the end of our day, so off with me till morning.