Exploring Gender Dynamics in Paganism

Ready to uncover the fascinating variations within the world of paganism? Promise to be intrigued as we discuss and shed light on the unique aspects of several traditions, emphasizing the importance of respect and understanding for each individual path. Join us in recognizing the key role that often-undocumented elders have played in shaping our community.

Transcending into the realm of gender dynamics, we address concerns about gender exclusivity within certain factions, and advocate for a balanced and inclusive approach. This episode serves as a reminder of the rich diversity within the pagan community and the need for mutual acceptance, so come along on this enlightening journey with us!

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:25

Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. Here are your hosts, Lady Ava and Lord Knight.

Speaker 2 0:33

The subject we're talking about today is not our tradition. This came about because Jay Woodward from Caldron Brew asked us one time about trying to get us to compare our tradition with someone else's tradition. We basically said, no, we don't do that because it's not our tradition. And then I had to proceed to explain to him why this was such an important thing in the traditional community.

Speaker 3 1:04

I will. Oh my goodness, I can't remember if it was. Was it Ray Buckland's wife, or it might have been Janet Farrar. It was one of the right, the pivotal 60s, 70s yeah, priestesses who came out of one of the really well-known traditions. And there's this interview and it's online. I'm sure you can find it with a little bit of digging. There's this amazing interview that she did and the premise of the entire interview was just that she was asked what do you think about modern craft? And she goes well, it's not my craft, but that's fine. And she must have repeated that I don't know how many times, and I know that the interviewer was clearly trying to poke at her. They were trying to get her to say something disparaging or negative. They wanted that hot take, absolutely. And she just kept going yeah, it's not the same, it's not what I do, it's not what I believe, it's not, but you know, it's not my craft, right? So we see this a lot.

Speaker 2 2:34

Oh man, I mean because in our area I don't know if a lot of people don't realize this we interact with a lot of other temples and covens and yeah.

Speaker 3 2:45

And there's there's different reasons for this right. Some of it is because over the years there have been cross.

Speaker 2 2:53

It's almost like this sounds terrible right, it's sort of like cross contamination. No, no, no, no.

Speaker 3 3:01

It's cross relations. It's almost like what you see with sovereignty and with you know royal families. It's alliances, right, so we have. Basically, you can have, a person who shares multiple lineages with different groups in the area, and that's a fairly normal practice. It's how we strengthen bonds, it's how we make friends, it's how we yeah, we keep the ties.

Speaker 3 3:32

But but, oh, the number of times that we will say, yeah, I don't know what that was, or I saw them do this, or I, you know, was part of a ritual, and and, and our elders will continually. It's not our tradition.

Speaker 2 3:53

Not our tradition.

Speaker 3 3:54

They do it differently. I remember the first time I saw a particular rich I was. Their way of casting circle was so phenomenally different. I was like a deer in headlights and I mean I was. I think I was a second degree and I was just like what is happening? And there was like a choreography to to the way they did thing and I had no idea what I was doing because I was just like OK, all right.

Speaker 2 4:28

You know what I'm just like?

Speaker 3 4:29

yeah, I am a stranger in a strange land. I am literally just going to stand here, and it's funny because, again, as I've gotten older and I've experienced more of these, I've noticed something really fascinating the elders are usually seated right.

Speaker 2 4:48

Right.

Speaker 3 4:49

Because there's the, it's difficult for them to stand for long periods of time. Right, they may have an ailment, whatever it is, or maybe it's just a courtesy we're just going to get them a chair but what I have noticed is, from their seated positions, they are in a much better spot to literally just observe, make note of any differences, kind of file it away in the bank, right. But they don't feel the same pressure, right, to know what's going on or to participate, because they're just like I'm here, I'm doing my thing. No, there's something interesting.

Speaker 2 5:25

I'm like a note on this.

Speaker 3 5:26

I'm going to ask a question about that later. Exactly, we'll discuss that later and the funny thing is, sometimes the people from that other tradition are willing to discuss it and sometimes they're not, and there's not much of anything you can say to argue that.

Speaker 2 5:43

But let's admit as soon as they come out and go. Well, it's a mystery, yet you know that's quite in the conversation, right then.

Speaker 3 5:50

Right. But you would think that once you're at a certain point, right, that if you've got five third degrees in a room from various traditions, we'd be more willing to share or to discuss said mysteries. Not always, not always.

Speaker 2 6:09

Sometimes we shut it down and just go. That's just because there are traditions that are brought up that are inside just certain traditions and nowhere else.

Speaker 3 6:19

And please understand that a tradition and a pantheon are not the same thing. You know, right Like. So you can have 10 different groups that say we are Celtic, we practice Celtic witchcraft Okay great. And we are all traditionalists and we come from a traditional background Okay great. But everybody does something. Each group is totally different.

Speaker 2 6:47

Totally different.

Speaker 3 6:49

But yet there's a commonality. But it's again. It's not like Christians, it's not like the Methodists and the Baptists. And you know you go. You can fly halfway around the country and go to a different Methodist church.

Speaker 2 7:02

And it will be just like your Methodist church, mostly.

Speaker 3 7:04

Yeah, there may be a few exceptions, but most things are very predictable.

Speaker 2 7:10

Again, it's like if you've been in one Catholic church, you've been in all of them, mostly.

Speaker 3 7:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2 7:15

And I don't mean that bad about Catholics, I just mean that yes, it's very, very regimented you know I've never gone to a different Baptist church and it'd be something different.

Speaker 3 7:30

Yeah, exactly, but we're not like that. Part of what makes a tradition a tradition is those individual components that are passed down from the founders and from the elders who have done studies in particular areas that they found to be vital and then incorporated that into their craft and that's the standard that they set. But it's not always the same. So this this gets really confusing for people. I've even had it happen where I in younger years having people call like literally question a practice of ours or question go, why do you do it that way? And sometimes I had an answer and sometimes I would go. You know, I'm not sure I'll get back to you on that. I need to. I need to ask some questions because I don't know Right. I genuinely don't know why, but but let me see if I can find out. And sometimes it was above my pay grade and sometimes it wasn't.

Speaker 2 8:37

And that, and that we sometimes wish it was below our head. Yeah, no kidding.

Speaker 3 8:41

No, kidding, because, yeah, now it's. You know, there's almost an expectation at a certain point to know everything about the tradition and that's almost impossible because it evolves and it changes. But I think the big thing is to not be judgmental, right, Of those differences. I was, we were together not that long ago and Selena Fox was the speaker Right, and she's very well known. Yeah, I this is me personally I do not consider my craft and her craft to be the same. No, as a matter of fact, I don't even know that she practices craft. I feel like Selena Fox is more of a Pagan Spiritualist. Yeah, spiritualist, you know.

Speaker 2 9:37

Yeah, like it's a little different.

Speaker 3 9:40

It's a little different and I'm not trying to take anything away from her by any means.

Speaker 2 9:44

Again, this is where this works, Not our tradition.

Speaker 3 9:47

Yes, not our tradition, and but I did. I remember remarking that because, my gosh, there were how many covens there being represented?

Speaker 2 9:56

at least 20 probably Something like that. It was a lot.

Speaker 3 9:59

It was a lot. And then, not to mention the Solitaries. And you know, I remember saying to you what a safe choice for a speaker. Yes, what a great choice, because she's very neutral regarding all of the traditional differences and the non-traditional differences. She's someone who's been around long enough that she was able to talk about history, she was able to talk about events, she was able to talk about Pagans in the last, let's say, 40 years. Right, but without singling out or ostracizing anybody, anybody. She was such a delightfully safe way to go.

Speaker 3 10:47

Yes, yeah, very politically correct for Pagans, which is a funny thing to say, yeah, and I just remember thinking, huh, ok, so everybody was able to walk away with something. But I'm well aware that had someone like you or I been the keynote, that would not have been the case. No, no, there would be a lot of people scratching their heads going I don't know what they're talking about. Yeah, that's not my tradition, and there it is, there it is.

Speaker 3 11:20

And so, yeah, we have to constantly, I think, be aware of that. There are, however and I don't know if you've ever discussed this or not there is a way in which traditional meets traditional and confirms traditional.

Speaker 2 11:38

Yes, there is.

Speaker 3 11:40

Yeah, so it's not like we're always just taking people's word for it.

Speaker 2 11:46

No.

Speaker 3 11:47

There is a bit of a protocol and there is a way in which For the lack of better words.

Speaker 2 11:52

There is a cow and a countercow sign.

Speaker 3 11:55

Yeah, yeah, it's passcode, yeah, and the expectation is, yes, a traditionalist, a traditional group, someone who is initiated properly, would know this. And that's one of the ways that we can kind of tell, or literally referral, right, right, if another priestess that we know really well and she says, hey, this group over here Listen.

Speaker 2 12:20

Maybe the lady might call us up and say hey, I want you to work with him, okay.

Respecting Different Pagan Traditions

Speaker 3 12:24

Right, absolutely. It can sometimes be that easy, but all that really happens under those situations is we are extending our mutual respect, we are extending admiration, we are extending the shared camaraderie, but we are always well aware that there's going to be a lot of things that are not the same.

Speaker 2 12:45

Well, I mean again, when the stuff happens, we automatically know hey, this person's going to be showing up, come to our ritual. They're going to have questions.

Speaker 3 12:54

Yeah, and for that matter, so might we.

Speaker 2 12:58

Oh God, yes, because I know there's some things that they do that are completely different from what we do Absolutely Now. At the end of the day, the ritual space and energy always winds up still being the same.

Speaker 3 13:11

I believe so I've never felt uncomfortable in. But well, but I think again that's. That's interesting, but I think that's because we've been around the block so long. I do remember very vividly the first circle that I was in. That was not life temple.

Speaker 2 13:29

Right.

Speaker 3 13:30

Oh, my Lord, I was nervous. I really was. I was very, very nervous and I remember and I think it was because I was too wrapped up right in the differences or in analyzing them or trying to remember them, and Lord Graceland was like would you relax? Just chill, yeah. He was like this is the fun part, stop it.

Speaker 2 13:54

We don't have to do nothing but stand here Exactly and I was like but but, but, but, but.

Speaker 3 13:59

And he was like I'm going to get you some tequila if you don't calm down, and you know. But yeah, because I was so attentive to all those little things that were going on around me that were different than the way life temple did it. Now I'm just like whatever.

Speaker 2 14:17

Whatever, yeah, that's fine.

Speaker 3 14:19

Yeah, yeah, they hold their anthem that way. That's fine. Yeah, OK, is that the way they do it? Yeah?

Speaker 2 14:24

OK, how can they get their fingers to work?

Speaker 3 14:28

I don't know, there's so many little like intricacies of things like that. So anyway, yeah, so very, very common, and I don't know what, when we say it, when we really just say, hey, not my tradition, right, what are I guess? How do you?

Speaker 2 14:47

Well, I could say, well, I could see where somebody could possibly take it as an insult, whereas just me going, no, there's too many. There's differences here, and I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're doing. It's just not the way I do it.

Speaker 3 15:00

It's just become an easy way to sort of shrug our shoulders. Yeah, we're not. We're not writing anyone off and we're certainly not trying to be rude or disregard them. It literally is just a saying yeah, they're a little different. They're a little different.

Speaker 2 15:15

This is not what I believe in, but.

Speaker 3 15:17

And maybe it is the same belief Like there's what's ironic. Some of it is the beliefs are identical, but the mechanics the mechanic or the method of it is different. And you go all right. Fine, we both. We went two different routes on the map we got to the same damn place, that's fine.

Speaker 2 15:34

Life goes on, yeah, so again not our tradition, yep.

Speaker 3 15:38

Yep, yep, and honestly, for a lot of us, that's what it is. The destination is the same, so we don't really care. You know what boat you took to get there.

Speaker 2 15:49

Now, the way Lord Min sort of explained this to me. The way it came on was is, back in the day, way back there used to be this in fighting In between covens, or which way was the right way.

Speaker 3 16:03

Well, because I think also back then it was, there was an opportunity for supremacy. Yes, you had. You had the Ferrar's, you had the Frost's, you had Buckland, you had Alistair Crowley Right, these people were all happening at the same time. You had Sybil Leak, they were all relevant at the same time. So, yes, everybody was sort of fighting to get the right way out first, first. And now we're in the era of fuck, right way, here's all the ways, here's all the ways. And, ironically it's, it's still just as confusing as it was then. Then it was who's right and who's wrong, and now it's just holy crap, there's so much to choose from. How do I narrow this down?

Speaker 2 16:55

How do you write? You know which way is for the oldest way. Which ways weren't the oldest ways?

Speaker 3 17:00

Yeah, and I think that just the biggest thing and it was always my takeaway was that Temple was always very, very, very free in saying we are not teaching you the way.

Speaker 2 17:16

We're teaching you a way.

Speaker 3 17:17

Yeah, this is not the Mandalorian we are. There is. There is no prize, baby Yoda, at the end you don't get a Grogu. Yeah, it's not the way. We are teaching you a way and then, depending on how you advance and what happens along your journey, you might take that way and modify it to another way.

Speaker 2 17:41

And so be it, and so be it. And then begins yet a new tradition along this branch.

Speaker 3 17:47

Yep, and that's why there's so many damn traditions, and that's all right, and you do get into a lot of the. There is still now, I think, the there's a little bit of that. You know well well who founded it and who are they and what were they known for, and that's just it. Not every tradition has that. For as many people as we're out in front, you know, fighting the good fight of getting pagans their rights and being political, there were just as many who went. I don't want to go lobby on. Capitol.

Speaker 3 18:23

Hill I just want to have a little group in my backyard and and do what I do. And that was. And so there's many, many elders that never made the history books, that never, you know. They didn't leave an indelible mark in the same way, except with the people that they passed their knowledge down to.

Speaker 2 18:43

Well, let's well, I mean as far as what you're talking about, let's take a prime example our elder and founder Lord man. Somebody came up on like. I've tried to look him up. I can't find nothing, except for what's on your website. That's not surprising. That's not surprising, oh, not at all. You know how many elders I know that are that same way.

Speaker 3 19:00

Absolutely. And then the other thing is and we talked about this on a previous podcast how many elders share the same spiritual name? How do you know who you're talking about Exactly? Yeah, lady Minerva is times 20. So now but again, it's ironic because regionally, you will mention a particular elder's name and others will go oh yeah, absolutely, I know, I know of that person, or I met them once, or I know you know some of their spiritual children. But, yes, I mean outside of that. No, you might not.

Speaker 2 19:35

I mean there's a person's name. I mean I know there's like for us and the communities we've run around. Yes, there are certain places I can go to South Carolina sort of mention and certain names people go. Oh you know.

Speaker 3 19:44

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But then in other places not so much, not so much. So just yeah, keep that in mind. I mean, traditions are wide and varied and they're all valid, but there's plenty of times that you will find yourself just saying it's not my tradition, that's OK and it's all right. All right, yeah, it's kind of like choosing coffee Coffee, not my roast Coffee.

Speaker 2 20:12

You said coffee.

Speaker 3 20:13

I know, all right, I'll pour you another cup.

Speaker 2 20:15

Thank you.

Speaker 3 20:17

So I think I'm in a really strange position in craft and that I am a priestess who was largely trained by men.

Speaker 2 20:29

Yes, and which does place you into a small disadvantage. Yeah, maybe you tend to act more like a priest than a priestess sometimes.

Speaker 3 20:39

Yeah, fair. But what I think is interesting is that because I came into temple with already a good bit of respect right for men and then I understood paganism as both God and goddess Right and even though, sure, I guess, like a lot of people, I put goddess a bit above him, I learned to balance that out. But there are still so, so many forms of paganism that put men in the corner. Yes, we in classes have talked about this a lot over the years, how there's many female dominant groups who literally the horn god is like an afterthought in the corner Right and men are not as relevant in their practices. It's so got a centric. We don't do that.

Speaker 2 21:43

No.

Speaker 3 21:44

I have taken a little bit of heat in some ways as a priestess for effectively standing up for priests and the male form and their contribution. I just I think it's interesting that that is going on. I mean, I understand, you know, the patriarchy is part of the problem, right, christianity being male centered is part of the problem. But what the hell is it like for a dude who's practicing and who's part of this community, like, what is that doing to our men?

Speaker 2 22:20

Well, and I'm going to say this, and I'm not saying this to be mean or anything, but since, like you've came onto the podcast, compared to me and Lord Oswin, numbers have already uptick and there's part of me that's sitting back. Is that because you're hearing the same thing?

Speaker 4 22:36

but now from a priestess instead of a priest.

Speaker 2 22:40

Is there? Is there a bias in our community to where in the world, especially on like podcasts and stuff like this, just like in the other one, you're going to listen to a priest before you?

Speaker 3 22:50

do a nun.

Speaker 2 22:52

Are we having the same problem here?

Speaker 3 22:54

Interesting.

Speaker 2 22:57

Because of our culture?

Gender Dynamics in Paganism

Speaker 3 22:58

Yeah, are we biased towards men? Wow, I find that's fascinating, because I don't understand how a coven instead works if you don't have both. Thank you At all. Head up, it is the literal foundation of life, people. You know, that's how I always go back to this. I'm like it's, you know, it's nature. It's the male and the female coming together and it is the fruit of their labors and loins, and that is, you know.

Speaker 2 23:31

Yeah, I mean come on, we have a part of, there is a part of our ritual.

Speaker 3 23:36

Yes, the great right yeah that's all this is about. Well, I mean, yeah, at the end of the day, sure, when you, when you boil it all down, I mean that's it, it's. Every story is the union of right. Every story is either about the union of the God and Goddess, the separation of the God and Goddess, the fight to get back to one another yeah.

Speaker 3 24:00

And all of the different dynamics that exist between them. Very rarely is it just one or the other. Now, sure, throughout history there have been, like the Greeks, I under Zeus was put on a pedestal. I get that, the Vikings, odin was put on a pedestal, but but is that just our perception of things modern Like? Is that just how it was taught to us? Because I don't think so.

Speaker 2 24:28

And I don't think it is as focused as just that's what I mean, right, freya is Freya is. Oh my God, it's a phenomenal, goddess.

Speaker 3 24:38

She's a force, but Odin would not be without her. And you know, zeus, it's the same thing, like, yeah, he was this as a figure right, he was the culmination, he was all the gods in one and it's the reason, the all father. Yeah, well, no, that's Odin. Yeah, but same. But again, they're so closely tied. Yeah, I just cannot understand where it's almost you know, like we have to be cautious of what is feminist craft. Maybe that's a way of looking at it Maybe. It's.

Speaker 2 25:20

I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with the extreme feminist people in craft in their covens, it's just would be a crime. Shame if it was everyone.

Speaker 3 25:34

Yeah, you know what I'm saying. I do and that's. I think what I'm concerned about is that there are absolutely traditions that are being formed and created based on this. Yeah, and I don't like it. It's not my favorite thing. I don't like that one bit.

Speaker 2 25:54

I mean, I'm not like culling anybody out, but yes, when we go to these gathers and stuff as a priest, as a priest talking to some of the priestesses, there's a little bit of talking down to or a little less respect compared to what they do for you, yeah, and that's not that I have a problem with this or anything, but again there's, you see it.

Speaker 3 26:17

No, I know I have gone so far that a lot of public events now I wear the symbol. I will wear a very overtly male symbol at these events. Right, but short of having a penis dangling from my neck.

Speaker 2 26:38

Right.

Speaker 3 26:39

I'm making it extremely clear that that is a image I want to display and I want people to understand that connection. And it may seem a little odd to some people like why is she wearing the horn, god, why not?

Speaker 2 26:54

Why not? Well, again, Lady Keegan was taking some classes and she was listening to this woman. This woman kept on going on for her 15, 20 minutes on how all women need to go out and find their spirituality before all the skies go out there and get it. What, literally, was sort of like the sentiment of what she was saying. Yeesh, like spirituality with some commodity on the shelf that we were going to run out of because all the guys took it.

Speaker 3 27:24

Oh, okay, that's really bizarre. Well, I mean, similarly, at many pagan shops and, you know, bookstores and places where they hold classes or events, you know, I've been in rooms where, yeah, if there's one or two men, that's a lot, that's a lot, it's primarily all women. Now, I don't know if that's an interest or desire thing, but I do kind of go. Are we not making this as inviting an environment for men? We also have seen in recent years, right, there's a huge resurgence of the Viking, you know, in the Norse tradition and most men are gravitating to it.

Speaker 3 28:15

Every guy I meet lately who is pagan like I had a cashier at the grocery store just two days ago say, can I see the tattoos on your hands? Then I held them out and he goes oh man, I was hoping they were runes. And I'm looking at this 17 year old kid like what the hell do you know about runes, boy? Because, yeah, they're finding and there's a reclaiming happening for men of their own spiritual origin. But I'm very concerned that this is like a big tipping point because the more the Norse tradition takes hold, we're going to start seeing what could potentially be all male groups, yeah, and we already have.

Speaker 2 29:08

Those with the radical fairings are supposed to be an all men group.

Speaker 3 29:12

Yeah, that's right, that's right, that's right, but it's, I just, I don't know and I do realize that some of these more Dianic groups are now starting.

Speaker 2 29:22

Some of them not all of them are starting to allow transgender women in their groups.

Speaker 3 29:27

Yeah, yeah, and Dianics are usually the ones who are like you know, put the penis in the corner.

Speaker 2 29:35

Not all of them.

Speaker 3 29:37

But you know, there's a few Dianics out there that still want to go that far. Yeah, but, but, but I just don't see men leaning into craft anymore. I see them almost exclusively going to Norse and I and I'm concerned about that for a number of reasons. One, because Norse, when you start getting into the history right, it's so aggressive.

Speaker 2 30:01

Yes.

Speaker 3 30:02

And I get it Like I get the allure of the testosterone and that, but there's no balance in that.

Speaker 2 30:08

Well, again we're talking about a warrior.

Speaker 4 30:11

Yes.

Speaker 2 30:13

Yes, what is that lifestyle?

Speaker 3 30:15

Well, yeah, yeah, but there's, but there's no balance, no, and then you have all of these negative associations with white supremacy and, you know, not, neo-nazis. One of the things I loved was, at one of the recent gathers we went to, someone was passing out stickers that literally said Odin doesn't hate anyone. And it was. And because they're trying to spread that message that just because you're following the Norse path does not automatically make you yeah.

Speaker 2 30:52

Because, these things again these think the white supremacy and the Nazi's that came later.

Speaker 3 30:57

Yeah, and I mean, you've got things like a. Satru, which is largely misunderstood and misconstrued. But again, these are very, very intensely male traditions and I'm like we made that. Congratulations everybody. You know we kind of, I fear you know downgraded men enough in our faith that now they're like. Well, we have to do our own thing to find a home in this and it seems sad it's frustrating.

Speaker 2 31:32

But I have to ask now will this also be a good counterbalance to the dynamics? I don't know. Do you see what I'm saying?

Speaker 3 31:43

Yeah, I'm not. I'm not really sure, because I think there's a difference between the way a lot of people right they form relationships with deity, and often of the same gender, so they tend to overlook the other side. I don't think it's deliberate, it's just what happens. So if you've got someone who you know has has sort of entrenched themselves in Aphrodite, they might forget about Pan and you go. Well, okay, they're not completely unaware that he exists, they're just focusing on their relationship with that one deity, but that's. Those are usually solitary.

Speaker 2 32:34

So my question is is could there be hope here that this balance and our religion is actually coming more into fruition? Maybe, some of the older traditionalists are starting to realize. Okay, ignoring the God all together is not as fun as we thought it was.

Speaker 3 32:54

Yeah, maybe. Again, I think it still takes a certain level of open mindedness.

Speaker 2 33:01

Yes.

Speaker 3 33:03

I also think it is where we open up a bigger discussion about gender, in the sense that a well trained witch, regardless of their gender, can uphold the role in the duties of the opposite gender within the church, if need be. It's not ideal, but they can do it, and I do think that the gay community is largely what has broken down a lot of those stereotypes and has opened people's minds to this. Okay, but there's still like some, yeah, there's still some some tension going on and I don't, I don't like it, I just don't like it. I feel like we have an obligation to look at what is in balance, what is cyclical and what nature demands.

Speaker 2 34:05

Right.

Speaker 3 34:06

And I just can't understand a practice on either side that skewed one way or the other.

Speaker 2 34:13

It doesn't make much sense to me, but it could be the fact of the tradition we were raised in.

Speaker 3 34:19

Perhaps I mean I do. I know Lordman was in a lot of ways ahead of his time, but he's not alone in that.

Speaker 2 34:27

No, I mean, we're not the only temple that does it this way, there are others.

Speaker 3 34:32

No, no, we, but for sure we have always been a male heavy group and I do think that's because we are equally dividing that attention and men are able to look at our classes and our lecture series and feel like they have a purpose.

Speaker 2 34:52

I can get something out of this. There is something for me to do here.

Speaker 3 34:56

That's it. It's the something for me to do. I'm needed here, I can participate and I can be valued and I can do some versus. Yeah, just stand there and hold that staff Right, come on.

Speaker 2 35:10

Well, there's a difference there. What is it that I've heard said? Men are subject oriented where women are. It's the difference in the way men and women think. Men will take a picture of a cup, women will take a picture of them holding a cup, but the subject of both pictures is the cup Interesting. And that this demonstrates the difference between the two mindsets of the two genders Because, again, men in temple, we want to do stuff, we want to build the bomb farm we want to.

Speaker 3 35:44

Yeah, it's very tactile and it's very logical, and for women it's more thought process and it's more a little bit more subjective, I think, sometimes. But see, this is what I think lends to yall's ability and ritual.

Speaker 2 36:03

So much to make. You can make a dish out, commercial, sound, spiritual.

Speaker 4 36:11

I'm not going to smoke up yet.

Speaker 2 36:13

There's just something I see priestesses do Y'all can make reading the phone book sound like a, which I don't think our guys have like that.

Speaker 3 36:22

I think some do, Somebody. I really believe that some do. I mean, I have met so many incredibly poetic, intelligent, emotional men in the pagan community that, yeah, I do think that is possible. But for whatever reason, everybody still leans to the priestess and it's a little, it's a little frustrating. It never escapes me that the older male figures they're not ignored but they're not as engaged as the older women.

Speaker 2 37:06

Yes, but me being a being a priest sitting at a table eating with a bunch of other priestesses, I normally wind up keeping my mouth shut. I know you do, because I know we know because, exactly if I open up my mouth, we know exactly what's going to happen Maybe, maybe not.

Speaker 3 37:25

I mean again, I think that's part of where those walls need to be broken down a bit. I think men should feel that they can freely express their ideas inside of craft and not go to get a tag, yeah. Well, you know, I'm just going to be ignored anyway. So what's the point?

Speaker 2 37:44

Yeah, you know, or you do tell your opinion and you get that look, but it's just some guy.

Speaker 3 37:47

Yeah, whatever. Yeah, exactly it's. Yeah, it's strange. So anyway, again just more things to chew on. We'll spit and swallow later.

Speaker 2 38:04

I need coffee first.

Speaker 3 38:06

Okay, more coffee.

Speaker 1 38:09

Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetimepleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit.

Speaker 4 38:27

We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing fires. And so it is the end of our day, so walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning.