Finding Unity in Diverse Holiday Traditions

Ever wondered why your Christmas tree might be a matter of religious contention? Or got puzzled over how an Easter egg hunt could be a bridge between diverging belief systems? Join us as we unravel the curious connections between Christian holidays and pagan traditions in this dynamic edition of Pagan Coffee Talk. From dissecting those viral social media posts that point out pagan practices in our holidays, to probing the precarious topic of cultural appropriation, we journey into the heart of a heated debate. We conclude that a peaceful coexistence between different belief systems is not only possible but necessary – all it takes is a little respect and tolerance.

But the journey doesn't end there. We take a detour into the world of holiday representation, expressing our vexation with the fight for uniqueness and the abysmal lack of inclusivity in holiday greetings. And while we're at it, we put under the spotlight the irony of Pagans perpetuating the same behavior they have often experienced from Christians. In our quest for a more inclusive holiday season, we stress the need for education without shaming, and celebration without judgment. So, come along, enjoy your holiday traditions, and let's wrap this up over some coffee. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:25

Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. Here are your hosts, Lady Alba and Lord Knight.

Speaker 2 0:32

Alright, Lord Knight. Why do Christian holidays have to be pagan? Go ahead, explain what you were just explaining.

Speaker 3 0:43

My problem is every Christmas, every Easter and all this. I see the videos 15 times. Is this really pagan? Is this really Christian? Can we just really stop? Oh my god, okay, I'm sorry, I've had enough to hear. Okay, Every set.

Speaker 2 1:10

Alright, hold on, let's dissect, let's dissect. So I know exactly what you're saying. Yes, every single Christmas season there's 50 million posts to social media about how Christmas trees are really pagan and the Yule log is pagan and hanging stockings is pagan and how all of these things that people do are really pagan practices. But it's still because we are in a time where the overwhelming religious majority is still Christian and, as a result, I think some of them do it out of genuine curiosity and I think others do it because, I don't know, they're almost trying to find fault with their own faith. They're trying to basically perhaps steer people into some other type of fundamentalist belief where maybe they take the pagan out of Christmas. I don't know, but yeah, every holiday Easter, really, I mean, I think the only one we're exempt from is 4th of July, and I'm sure somebody's going to make an association with fireworks at some point and it's going to be pagan too. They blow shit up. They're pagan.

Speaker 3 2:32

Well, the Chinese did come up with that, I know, and they're not Christians. They're not Christians.

Speaker 2 2:37

So technically right, they were one of the original heathens. I so, but this is funny because to me it's also no different than the people who go. Pasta's not really Italian. Now that too is Chinese. So basically, the whole point of this podcast is that everything is Chinese really.

Speaker 3 3:05

At the end of the day, Especially everything on Amazon Right everything is Chinese.

Speaker 2 3:10

We're Chinese. All our foods are Chinese. No, I'm kidding, but it's the same thing. It's like challenging the knowledge or challenging that belief. Somehow. That's it. It's challenging the faith or it's challenging that person's belief system. But I do like what you said off my A little while ago, because you said you know, is Christmas really pagan? No, Christmas is Christmas. Christmas is really pagan.

Speaker 3 3:44

And then the whole Santa Claus thing is cultural. I don't know how to explain that it's not a religion.

Speaker 2 3:50

There are right. There are many, many, many versions of Santa across the globe, but they are all associated with Christmas time, so in some are more pagan than others. Hell, one of them is flat out a witch, which is really funny.

Speaker 3 4:09

And don't get us started on Krampus.

Speaker 2 4:11

Yeah, well, we love him.

Speaker 3 4:13

He's so kindly, but again why do we have to have this argument over and over, and over again?

Speaker 2 4:20

Well, here's me. Personally, I don't mind it. I don't mind it because I feel like it's bringing awareness, and with every new generation of Christians, I always get a little giggle because I go he, the next time they look at their Christmas tree they're gonna be like huh, okay, there, there may be just a tiny bit of sympathy that comes from the process. If one of them goes.

Speaker 2 5:00

Well, maybe we're not that different, or maybe maybe these, you know these, these people practicing witchcraft, right? Maybe it's not what I thought it was, maybe they're just putting a tree up to and putting present. If it serves that purpose, fantastic if it helps to bridge the gap even a little.

Speaker 3 5:22

But that's not what they're doing.

Speaker 2 5:25

Well, what do you think they're doing?

Speaker 3 5:26

Oh, oh no, lord, God forbid. We need to make Christians quit celebrating Christmas the way they are. We need to get them to quit using the sanny cloth. Those are our stuff. How dare you a culturally appropriate?

Speaker 2 5:43

Listen first off. The first time I hear a pagan utter the words cultural appropriation, I'm gonna smack the shit out of them. Okay, I, because we know. No, no, sit down, no, come on. We have been culturally appropriating everything for as long as I can remember. So if you're gonna point a finger and blame someone else for a culturally appropriating, piss off. But I will say we are one of the last Bastions or institutions where there is more tolerance for that. I have friends who practice voodoo and they look at my lily white ass and my Brigitte and my Papa leg, but on my altar and go okay, I see you all right. And, and there's no issue, do I claim the heritage? Do I claim the cultural aspect? Of course not, I can't. But do I appreciate it? Yeah, do I learn about it? I try. Do I read? Yeah, I mean, so we can like nod to each other and it's cool, we're good. But that, oh no, that's come on, come on look.

Speaker 3 7:12

This is where I've been seeing it head here lately, every time they talk about it and I'm like, okay, oh, it's time to stop. All right, seriously.

Speaker 2 7:21

So, basically, by this viewpoint, if a Christian family was going to celebrate Christmas purely god that's a weird word, but it would be just a Catholic a manger.

Speaker 3 7:39

No, it would be just Catholic math.

Speaker 2 7:42

But no.

Speaker 3 7:43

Oh, it wouldn't be, you wouldn't have.

Speaker 2 7:46

Why not? Why wouldn't? Why can't you have the baby and the manger and the wise men? I see, I mean it's part of their biblical story.

Speaker 3 7:54

There are a few Christian traditions that do not celebrate these things.

Speaker 2 7:58

That's true, but I mean.

Speaker 3 8:00

They do not do the Easter bunny, they do not put up the tree yeah, all they do. They go to church. Yeah, they worship God. They come home and they do the same thing on Easter. Look, and I'm fine with that.

Speaker 2 8:12

That's boring, that's boring.

Speaker 2 8:14

I mean, if it works for them, that's fine, but that is a very un-festive, very non-celebratory view of faith. And I mean, if that works for them, that's fine. But most other faiths enjoy some level of pageantry and some let me the songs and the music. So I don't know that's. This is really interesting. But to me, yeah, it's a form of unity. To me it's the only reason why I can go to my very Christian friends Christmas parties and feel comfortable, because I look around and I see things that represent my faith in that process and I see things that I can associate with that festive time of year and, yeah, it's nice.

Speaker 3 9:16

I mean everybody seems to think that none of us all get alone. You just held a party, not?

Speaker 2 9:22

lonely guy.

Speaker 3 9:24

And again, this was not necessarily a temple function. It was not a temple function, but that's just it.

Speaker 2 9:29

That was a hodgepodge of humans.

Speaker 3 9:33

You had. I mean, I know I was there. Lord Oswum was there, there was a couple of people from temple there, there were some people that were not, and everybody got along fine.

Speaker 2 9:41

Everybody had a great time and at no point did I feel that it was in this. I never pulled anybody aside. I never had a sidebar of like, oh we're not going to talk about, we're not going to talk craft today, or or, oh, those are my, my pagan friends. No fuck that Go mingle, meet some people and have a discussion about whatever and wherever, and it was great. I don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 3 10:11

I guess that's what gets me is. This is what I keep on hearing in all of this. Under all of this is we're not allowed to get along with each other now and then. I don't.

Speaker 2 10:21

Everybody's got a chip on their shoulder. That's, that's the, the era we're living in, right? Everybody's mad, everybody's angry, everybody has these really really intensely opinionated views. I mean, look, if we want to get super technical and I know there's a few pagan out that's potentially pagan scholars listening to this who are going to be clapping and or hallelujahing along with me on this If we want to get technical, jesus Christ of Nazareth was not born on December 25th. No, he was born in the summer.

Speaker 3 11:02

Yes, and and it is believed that it might. He might have been been three years old or so before the wise man reached him.

Speaker 2 11:10

Yes, there are so many aspects of the story of Christ's birth that go a few thousand years before Christ into the Sumerians, and there is a story of a boy king and it's almost identical.

Speaker 3 11:30

There's several stories like that of Virgin Virgin births, of course.

Speaker 2 11:37

And so we look at this and we go so does it really fucking matter?

Speaker 3 11:42

Seriously.

Speaker 2 11:43

Does it? I mean, I don't feel like it makes a shit bit of difference. Is it ours, is it theirs, is it not? Look, here's my take on it. People, right now, what is going on in Jerusalem and in Gaza? That is the direct result of two groups of people that cannot put their three yeah, three, technically, you're right, three who cannot put their shit aside and go. Does it really matter?

Speaker 3 12:13

Right.

Speaker 2 12:13

Does it matter?

Speaker 3 12:14

No, no, again, again and again. From a pagan point of view, we're talking about a piece of land that is absolutely worthless. There's no resources or anything there, and they're fighting over a mount to prove a point.

Speaker 2 12:30

But that's what I'm saying. If we go down that path, how long? Hello, how long before? That's that's it. We're going to be in the exact same situation, with groups fighting it out for some kind of bizarre ownership or supremacy.

Speaker 3 12:50

Of some you didn't know in the beginning. Right.

Speaker 2 12:53

Now. Yet I find this fascinating and I'm going to throw it out here, because we're talking about you all in Christmas and all that but yet African Americans adopted Kwanzaa in this country, which started when you and I were kids. Like that's the first time I ever heard of Kwanzaa.

Speaker 3 13:13

And from my understanding that could be wrong. Kwanzaa is not even religious, it is completely cultural.

Speaker 2 13:19

Exactly Right. It's more cultural than anything else. But the point is it has slowly but steadily picked up traction. A lot of people are incorporating into their Christmas beliefs. We're not backlashing on that. Not, at least not in my house, like most people, are like cool Kwanzaa, come to the party, let's go.

Speaker 3 13:38

Well, I mean, let's think about it this way Five, ten years ago, would you have been able to go out and find like a yard flag or something with the word yule on it? No, and now and now, I'm everywhere, everywhere.

Speaker 2 13:51

If you did, it was yule tie, yule Something. Yule tied or were my favorite yule time. Yeah, that's not it.

Speaker 3 13:59

That's something just saying yule, or something no.

Speaker 2 14:02

Now you see it all over the place.

Speaker 3 14:03

Now it's everywhere you can buy yule logs now.

Speaker 2 14:07

Yes, yes, but in Europe you always could. Yeah, but then you also, you know, but, yeah, same thing. I mean, how many of my Jewish friends have I heard over the years go? It's such a bullshit that you walk into a store and there's 12 aisles of Christmas and Hanukkah is in this four by two section on one shelf. You know, they're like that sucks. They're like why we always feel like, right, we're being disengaged yeah.

Speaker 2 14:42

And I'm like, but that makes so much sense. I'm like, why can't it all just integrate, right? Why can't it all just live together?

Speaker 3 14:51

I don't see what it even matters, I mean because when I come home, when I come home into privacy of my own home, I'm worshiping the way I want to worship, right. When I'm at temple, we worship the way temple worships, right. If you don't like that, you go to a different temple, right? What makes people think that they have to own that?

Speaker 4 15:17

this, I mean, I understand this.

Speaker 3 15:19

You know, this is my culture, or this? Is the way we do it Right, and I understand that. But for me to sit there and go no, it's just ours.

Speaker 2 15:30

Yeah, I don't know, that is to me. That is weird. It's the exact opposite of what the season is meant to embody.

Speaker 3 15:41

Let me put it to you this way. Let me ask you this we have a poem there in Saoan, that we read each year. How bad would you feel if you went to another ritual somewhere else and they started to read the same poem?

Speaker 2 15:51

I wouldn't feel bad.

Speaker 3 15:53

I wouldn't either.

Speaker 2 15:54

I would actually be quite intrigued. I would probably be like, hey, I know that one, you know, like I mean, see, that's what I mean.

Speaker 3 16:05

I think that Is this the difference of our mindset? Because, again, me and you would be the same. Like whoa, I know this.

Speaker 2 16:12

That's cool. I don't know. I don't know. By the same token, though, I mean I look at, this is what I go back to. When I was a kid, I remember Christmas, the day right, very specifically, the day had a feeling that and it wasn't about presents, it wasn't about being excited. No, it was quiet and it was peaceful and it was calm and you know, it was like the morning after the first night.

Speaker 3 16:50

Yeah, it was that kind of quiet.

Holiday Supremacy and Joyful Participation

Speaker 2 16:53

It's a very but it was always like, right, everybody's just kind of huddled up together in the house, cooking, eating, and there's something about that. That, to me, that's what always meant Christmas holidays. I don't give a good goddamn what you want to call it. Yes, I would just like to experience that a few times a year. Yes, that and that's lovely, but we've gotten so obsessed with, I don't know, representation.

Speaker 3 17:28

Yes.

Speaker 2 17:29

Then maybe that's it. Everybody is, you know, on their representation bandwagon and everybody needs to be their own unique little snowflake. Well, I'm like. Well, good luck with that. When you fall on the ground and you're all together, guess what? You are Snow.

Speaker 3 17:44

An avalanche.

Speaker 2 17:45

Yeah, you're just, but you're just snow collectively, so what does it matter, can't? Can't we just all be happy to be in that state together? I will say for years, years, it has bothered me, especially living in the south, that the greeting this time of year is not more generic. I grew up with happy holidays.

Speaker 3 18:13

Right.

Speaker 2 18:14

And so here it's always Merry Christmas, merry Christmas, merry Christmas. And I do have those moments where I'm like, not all of us celebrate that, but okay, that's fine.

Speaker 3 18:26

Haven't you ever just sat there and just said happy you'll back to me?

Speaker 2 18:29

I've said happy holidays. Sure, yeah, I just, but it's sometimes, I think, where it annoys me or it aggravates me is in places where religion shouldn't be, and to me that still stores. It's shopping, it's. You know, retailers, that it should be more generic. A store, to me, should not take the stance of right. It's Christmas.

Speaker 3 18:59

Let's take the story out for a minute but what about that individual? What if they're just really wanting to wish you a happy holiday, christmas, and you?

Speaker 2 19:07

know what. If it's that, then I will wish it right back to them, because I know that's where they're coming from.

Speaker 3 19:14

Right, because there are people out there you can tell.

Speaker 2 19:17

Yes, that is their belief and yes, I will acknowledge it for them in kind, because what they're really saying to me is they're blessing me. Yes, it's a blessing. It's a blessing, but it's also cute. It's the same way I get a little giggle right when people in the South say have a blessed day.

Speaker 3 19:40

Yes.

Speaker 2 19:40

Because what do I say back to them?

Speaker 4 19:43

Yes, you have a blessed day as well, and I put that little spin on it, right, but that's universal.

Speaker 2 19:52

That mean what is blessed, blessed, right, thank you. Thank you. I will take all the blessings you would like to bestow upon my head.

Speaker 3 20:02

I think I mean you might have a problem with this is when it sounds very robotic. The cashier has done that 50 times. Is that person that will sit there and look at me? And align with me and go yes, ma'am, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 20:15

You're like whoa Wait a minute.

Speaker 3 20:17

Yeah, you say ma'am 50 times a day.

Speaker 2 20:20

Yeah, didn't even register.

Speaker 3 20:22

Didn't even register what you said, and I just. You just got to sit there and tickle like you're at the end of your shift, aren't you?

Speaker 2 20:29

I do get really tickled now, though, when I see people with the stickers on their cars that say blessed because it's blessed. It's blessed and I'm like because I think that's great, but I don't know, it's yeah the need for holiday supremacy.

Speaker 3 20:49

I don't get it.

Speaker 2 20:51

So funny when you think about it. The whole reason that these holidays were overlapped the way they were and integrated the way they were was to integrate the people. Yes, so to create a cohesion, a cohesive culture. Yeah, so why are we going backwards? What are we doing?

Speaker 3 21:12

I mean, come on, it's really funny, and I do.

Speaker 2 21:15

I think that when people get mad about it or when they get really upset, I'm like whoa, slow down. Like what happened. Did your dog die on Christmas? Like what.

Speaker 3 21:27

Again, you know who I'm talking about. So it's people that go from zero to infinite speed and you're sitting back going. Where did that come from? Are they really?

Speaker 2 21:36

It's very common. Now it really is. So, yeah, I mean, is it good to know? Sure, yeah, do we need to? Here's the thing you can educate somebody without taking away their joy.

Speaker 3 21:53

Yes.

Speaker 2 21:53

You can educate without shitting on someone's beliefs.

Speaker 3 21:59

Well, and I find it funny that Pagans doing this after the badgering, some of us get from Christians.

Speaker 2 22:05

Yeah, I know.

Speaker 3 22:07

And you're sitting there doing the same thing.

Speaker 2 22:09

I don't smug, we're smug. That's the problem. It's just that it's that sick perverse. It was done to me, so I'm going to do it to somebody else, so I feel better. No, that doesn't. That's not how that works. You just end up feeling like shit.

Speaker 3 22:23

Yeah.

Speaker 2 22:24

You feel like shit because then you realize that you were cruel or that you were rude and then that's going to sit there and weigh on you heavily and you suddenly realize you broke one of the major tenants of our faith and you're putting shit out, so of course you're going to get shit right back, so knock it off, you know?

Speaker 2 22:47

just let people enjoy themselves, let them have this joyous time. You can participate and again, not need to be this killjoy in the room. I mean, come on, I have friends who aren't religious at all and they still show up to the Christmas parties dressed in their Grinch outfits or their you know, I've got one guy. He owns a head to toe three piece suit where he looks like wrapping paper. You know what I mean. Or the other Christmas sweaters, like why does it matter? Like you can still participate, yes, yeah.

Speaker 3 23:26

And after that I need coffee.

Speaker 2 23:28

Yeah, let's get some, you will copy yeah.

Speaker 1 23:33

Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetimepleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube and Reddit.

Speaker 4 23:51

We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing fires, and so it is the end of our days. So walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our days, bye.