Pagans in Recovery: Embracing Alternative Paths to Addiction Healing

When the whisper of a prayer feels more like a shout, many pagans in search of sobriety find themselves teetering on the edge of two worlds. Our latest episode gently untangles this knot, guiding listeners through the labyrinth of addiction recovery when traditional programs don't align with non-Christian beliefs. We delve into how the comfort of familiar words in the Serenity Prayer can be fraught with discomfort for those in the pagan community. With an open heart we highlight alternative support systems and the empowerment of leading recovery efforts from within our own circles of belief.

Navigating the nuances of spiritual community policies on alcohol and substance use, this conversation reflects our commitment to sanctuary and support for all. Lord Night shares candidly about his journey to quit smoking, portraying the razor-thin line between temptation and triumph. We recognize the profound impact of 12-step programs and the importance of being ready to extend a helping hand. Our discussion is a beacon for anyone struggling with addiction or those standing in solidarity with them, shedding light on the complexities and celebrating the strength found in our diverse spiritual tapestry.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:25

Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. Here are your hosts, Lady Alba and Lord Knight.

Speaker 2 0:31

All right. So we're going to talk today about pagans in recovery. This includes alcoholism, drug addiction I mean really any, any addictive behavior, right?

Speaker 3 0:47

Or trauma.

Speaker 2 0:48

Yeah, yeah, this is always an interesting one, because, well, I hate to say it, but it's kind of where a lot of pagans show their hmm, how should we say this? They're disdain for other faiths and their yeah inability to play nice.

Speaker 3 1:11

Yes, oops.

Speaker 2 1:12

Yeah, I've seen a. We've look in the course of Life Temple. We have known quite a few people either in recovery actively or seeking recovery. Yeah, seeking recovery from substance abuse, and one of the common barriers, if you will, is that they go to an A group or an A group and they are immediately upset by how Christian it appears to be Right, which is ironic because all of those groups are non-denominational and they all say the same thing we view God as a higher power.

Speaker 3 1:56

Now question on this Is there just a view wrong with this? Because, again, most of the AAs and stuff they meet in churches.

Speaker 2 2:04

They do.

Speaker 3 2:05

I mean, is that setting it up to begin with?

Speaker 2 2:08

Because of the environment. But that's part of it, I'm sure. But I mean, keep in mind, it's not like they meet in the chapel.

Speaker 2 2:15

No they're meeting usually in a, in a back, you know, like a classroom, or you know one of the rec center areas or something like that. But yes, I definitely think that has something to do with it. But depending on where you live, right, it could just as easily be a synagogue as it could be right, church. The other thing we see is that you know the utilization of things like the serenity prayer, which people very closely align with the Christian view of God.

Speaker 3 2:45

Yes, but again, that prayer to me why? Yes, you are praying to a higher power, but it's it's very I've heard it before. Yeah, I can do universal, it's very universal. I don't nothing that screams out any particular dominant.

Speaker 2 3:02

No, I mean so here. Here, I think, is the irony. I think that most pagans are much more comfortable with a Judaic faith. Then they are a Christian faith and again, we've talked about this before. It all comes down to who hurt you Right?

Speaker 3 3:22

What was your experience and Do we have to pull out the dolly? Show me where the bad religion touched you exactly like.

Speaker 2 3:30

that's so funny. Oh my God, Religion diagram show me where it touched you. That's really funny. It touched me in my nose and yeah, but like it's so. Here's the thing. I think that most pagans are OK with first estimate. We really want to if we really want to like, right right.

Speaker 2 3:53

First estimate. We're fine, like there's. There's so much inside of first estimate that we can agree with that, we can understand that, we can see its application. Ok, maybe not all of it. There's some pretty crazy shit in there, yeah, but it really is a new testament. That starts to become the challenge.

Speaker 3 4:16

The rub.

Speaker 2 4:17

Yeah. So Suggestions, thoughts, things that I tell people all the time I go. Look, first of all, if you cannot separate your effort in recovery from this dislike of another faith, then really how strong is your conviction to quit Right? Do you really want to get better? Or are you looking for an excuse?

Speaker 3 4:44

Because, again, the idea, to me, the idea is to quit the bad behavior.

Speaker 2 4:50

So you can be a more well rounded human Right who's more connected with God, period. However you view that deity and I do I think a lot of people are just looking for excuses. They're looking for reasons as to why it won't work for them. The other thing that I suggest to people is OK, if you've gone and you've tried it and, first of all, you didn't like it or you had a bad experience. Number one go to another group. There's so many of them that there are thousands upon thousands of recovery groups in every state. Choose a different one. Try something else. Don't just give up because one experience was not to your liking. The other is if you're really, really struggling with the faith aspect, find an LGBTQ meeting. It's easy.

Speaker 2 5:53

Super easy nowadays. They're everywhere Queer and recovery groups, gay and lesbian recovery groups, trans recovery groups, right. These are all becoming more and more prevalent and some of the issues that you're going to have with the more traditional group is likely not going to be a problem.

Speaker 3 6:17

No.

Speaker 2 6:18

At a gay meeting Now.

Speaker 3 6:21

do you think we should start encouraging temples and other covens to start these groups, these groups and stuff like that?

Speaker 2 6:28

Oh, absolutely, I have said it for years.

Speaker 2 6:31

So we have a few members in life temple who are recovered alcoholics, recovered drug addicts, and they still regularly are involved and go to, yeah, various institutions like this, various recovery institutions, and one of the mantras is always it only takes two drunks to make a meeting, right, right, it only takes two addicts to make a meeting. So if your church has even one person who is solid in their recovery and who is, you know, in good shape right, they've been in recovery for quite some time and they're doing well and they are starting to sponsor people outside of your church Then absolutely that person should be running points on a meeting. Well, no, why not? No, let me ask you from from from a temple point of view.

Speaker 3 7:31

Yeah, All right. How much involvement should the high priest and priestess have with this group? Should we allow, again allow the expert who's gone through it to do? You see what I'm asking.

Speaker 2 7:46

I am big on deferring man. I'm like, if you have an experience like who the fuck am I? You know what I mean. Yeah, I am not an alcoholic, I am not a drug addict. Do I have any business? Hell, no, I don't know your experience. I don't know what you've been through. So, whether or not I'm the priestess that takes a backseat to the lived experience of those, and it would be like me counseling you on how to be gay, what?

Speaker 3 8:17

I'm not sure I can counsel you on how to be gay. I know I mean, that's not like it doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 8:23

But but there's, it's the same thing. Now, does it mean there will never be times that the person facilitating these meetings will have to say you know, that might be a question for or a topic for, you know, we might want to bring in our high priest or priestess about this. That could be an interesting offshoot and maybe there's a discussion that is very specific to the religion. But bear in mind right at that point that group, it cannot be sanctioned by traditional AA or NA. Right, you are doing something. You are bringing the tenants and the big book, as it's called, right?

Speaker 2 9:04

right into your church, not the other way around, because a would never allow that. So while on one hand, you may open it up to being a public meeting that anyone could attend, it ain't gonna take people long to go. Oh, something's a little different here. Yeah you know they're. They're doing something very specific to the pagan faith and that's fine.

Speaker 3 9:28

And that's fine. I'm with this and again, I still like the idea that we are picking someone to do this that is better qualified than we are.

Speaker 2 9:40

Expertise is so, so, phenomenally critical when you are running a temple. I mean, how can you not utilize the skill sets and the and the wherewithal of your people, like right now we have a first degree, who's been a first degree for a number of years? We're talking about his potential elevation and I'm not going to, you know, get into specifics. But one of the things he said to me was he was you know, I'm concerned. I live so far away and I'm not as active as I'd like to be. He was worried, right, that the title, that second degree, was going to come with some outrageous responsibility and I went no, no, we're going to meet you where you are. You know, we understand that there's limitations because of distance and these other things, but what we need you to be aware of, what Lord Knight and I need you to be aware of, is the yes when your expertise pops up.

Speaker 3 10:37

Oh hell yes, you're the first phone call.

Speaker 2 10:40

Your own speed dialed mount yes, and he laughed and that was his exact. He laughed and he went. You know what? That's fair, that's that I can do, that makes perfect sense. And hey, he kept to his word. I called him last week about that exact topic and I said I need some input and he went OK, we had a lovely conversation, so it's. But it's like that with anything I call Lord Oswin right, I always refer to him as my music minister, because not only right is he a singer and an extremely talented musical individual. He went to school for it. I mean, good grief, what? Don't make that face at me, mister, I'm getting, I'm getting side-eyed by by a priest in the corner, but he to me, right to me, he is, he's my music minister. And whenever something differs to music inside of circle or how we are incorporating music or chant or rhythm into a practice, he's my first phone call.

Speaker 3 11:54

This is something all temples need to do. You need these people with these experiences in there to make you a stronger.

Speaker 2 12:02

Listen, listen. If you're, if you're a high priest or a high priestess trying to do it all by yourself, bless, that's a problem and it's it's going to eat you up and it's going to create a lot of turmoil until you realize there's nothing wrong with delegation.

Speaker 3 12:27

Nope.

Speaker 2 12:28

Yeah, it's extremely important and I think when you're getting used to this.

Speaker 3 12:33

I think this is one of the first and easiest places to start.

Speaker 2 12:37

Definitely you have to really look at the strengths of your people. I think it gets challenging right when you try to delegate a task that you yourself don't like doing, but you're trying to delegate it to someone who really isn't knowledgeable in it yet or is going to find it to be just as arduous. That's again that's where things clash. But if you're able to look at someone and go hey, you like math, you enjoy numeric type things, do you maybe want to help me with treasury? That's a great way to approach it. Yes, yeah, you like writing and reading and you're very. You should help with ritual writing. These are yes.

Speaker 3 13:27

All right, again, these are. These are things that you have to cultivate inside, definitely. And there's a good chance. If you're running the temple, you're going to run into these type of people.

Speaker 2 13:39

But it's more than that too. I mean, we have an elder who, let's be honest, nine times out of 10, the only time we can get him to come around or to come is when we call him and say I need your help. And it's a very specific task and it's usually there's something that needs to be built or fixed or constructed, and he's on it and he shows up and he does the thing, and we might not see him again for six months and that's OK.

Speaker 2 14:08

And that's fine, but we know where his skill lies and we know where he. And it's a two way street, right, because the person, the individual who's being called on, well, isn't it going to make them feel good? It's a nice warm, fuzzy right? Yeah, you're contributing.

Speaker 3 14:28

You're doing something.

Speaker 2 14:30

It feels purposeful. You are, in fact, a viable member of your church. Everybody needs that. Everybody needs to feel like they're doing something of value. Ok, but think small, right.

Speaker 3 14:46

No, let's get this back to the recovery. Sure, let me add, from a priestess point of view how in the world do you go into, how do we go and explain to people OK, person A, we've noticed you've had certain behaviors and certain things. How do we encourage that person? That is so. How do we go into recovery?

Church Circle Alcohol and Substance Policy

Speaker 2 15:09

So pagan intervention is is yeah, I think there's a few things that are interesting. One of the things that life's temple does almost immediately when someone is brand new to our circle they've never been inside it before we ask do you have an aversion or an allergy or a problem with two substances sugar, which seems funny, right, but that's to not exclude anybody and the other is alcohol.

Speaker 3 15:43

Alcohol.

Speaker 2 15:45

I take that second question very, very intensely because their answer tells me everything I need to know, and I may even go so far as to have a follow up question of have you ever had a problem with alcohol? And if the answer is even something close to yes, I will not permit them to drink from the chalice. You may kiss the cup.

Speaker 3 16:15

You may kiss the cup. Yep, again, there's the solution, just like with the sugar and the stuff If you can't have sugar, if you are diabetic, yeah, no, you cannot have the.

Speaker 2 16:24

Snickers bar.

Speaker 3 16:24

No, not on my watch.

Speaker 2 16:27

We have a responsibility where, yes, there is something to be said for individuals have to take their own responsibility Absolutely, but under our watch, in our church in our care we, yet there it is in our care. We cannot put the church in a position where we could be held. Libel for that individual's actions, and so therefore, yes, that's something we're very clear on. We're not even I mean, look, you would think, right, some of our after feast.

Speaker 2 16:58

and yes, sure, we've gotten rowdy and we've had some pretty big parties and we, but more often than not it is very rare to see someone fall down drunk.

Speaker 3 17:09

Yes, it is.

Speaker 2 17:11

And if that happens, they go nowhere.

Speaker 3 17:14

No.

Speaker 2 17:15

I mean we take it very, very seriously Now, right, because I mean, let's be honest, the last thing anybody wants is the press of so and so departing from pagan ritual the prior night.

Speaker 3 17:32

Yeah, tells this.

Speaker 2 17:34

Yeah, four car accident and two people died.

Speaker 3 17:36

Right.

Speaker 2 17:37

That's a major. Yeah, I mean that's problematic all around, but we don't need that press.

Speaker 3 17:43

No, we don't. We do need to be more responsible.

Speaker 2 17:47

Now, on the other hand, if we see someone's behavior affecting their ability to function inside of circle, inside of classes, ritual space, if we start getting reports that they're drinking or drug abuse is affecting their job, affecting their family, yeah, we're going to sit them down.

Speaker 2 18:14

We're going to have a conversation with them and we are not nice because we go all the way back to what I think is day one of classes with a student and we go we're not your friends. Nope, we're not your friends. We're going to tell you things you don't like. Yep, and it's going to be brutal at times and it's going to be honest and we are not necessarily going to sugarcoat or none of that.

Speaker 3 18:36

We're not doing it to be mean, we're not doing it just to be mean spirited and all this other stuff. We have to fix the problem. We have to help you fix your problems.

Speaker 2 18:46

And it has to be addressed head on. So sure we might. I think the exception is from an intervention standpoint. There's a difference between a church intervention and a family intervention, meaning I'm not going to reach out to someone's significant other if I don't have a strong relationship there and say, hey, we need to talk about so and so is drinking Right? Nope, not in my business. But if the family comes to us and says we need your help to have an intervention, that's different.

Speaker 2 19:20

That's different, but we may proceed with an intervention of a different kind. That comes down to you. You're going to need to talk to your family about this. You're going to need to bring them in. The other thing is I am very careful of where I'm out of my depths. From a medical standpoint, I have no business detoxing anyone. None of us do. That requires medical intervention. I would love to sit here and say that, sure, I have a lovely safe space in my home where somebody could come. And you know, no, I mean not like that, not for that.

Speaker 2 19:56

No no, they could die.

Speaker 3 19:59

Yeah, it's easily done, people, it's happened before.

Speaker 2 20:02

Yeah, it is our responsibility to know where to take them.

Speaker 3 20:07

Yes.

Speaker 2 20:08

It's our responsibility to know county, city, state resources and how to access them. Where are the local detox facilities? What are the rules? Are they 24 hour? What? Yeah, what does that look like? We have to know the nearby hospitals. We have to know and understand how the 5150 rules in our state work literally. Is this person in danger to themselves or others and do they need to be temporarily committed against their will? There's so many. There's so many factors, right, and it's rough. It's never an easy choice. It's never. But I mean, the underlying thing that you'll always hear people say, of course, is they have to want the help.

Speaker 3 20:54

Yes.

Speaker 2 20:55

They have to want to get better.

Speaker 3 20:57

Now, now bringing that up, so let me ask the dangerous question which?

Speaker 4 21:01

we might have to cut out later.

Speaker 3 21:05

At what point do we go to extent to use Consider? We do not tend to like to manipulate people because it's not bending someone's free will on. This is not I would say what do you think the ethics is behind something like this and I think there's two parts to that.

Speaker 2 21:29

So I think there's the ethics of like a binding right, you know, to bind them against harm harming themselves and others, yeah, but again, we cannot Downplay the sheer willpower Of someone who is being controlled by substance that will power will likely outweigh us.

Speaker 3 21:55

Probably I will. I'm like you I don't miss.

Speaker 2 21:59

Guarantee that it's so powerful, so you can't expect Hope for the best, expect the worst. The other component, though, and this is where, again, I think, we differ greatly from other religions At what point do we say you're not allowed to participate? Anymore, At what point do we cut you off from your faith, which I can hear the the sneering right?

Speaker 2 22:31

all around now because Other, I think in other institutions right the belief would be your faith is part of your recovery and your faith is part of what keeps you whole, so we want to surround you with more of it right.

Speaker 2 22:46

In our case, with how small and how intimate temple settings usually are. It's kind of the opposite, right? If one person is disruptive enough, if their behavior is disruptive enough that it's affecting everyone else, we have a problem, we have a huge problem. And at that point we may have to say you are, it's. It's tough because I would never strip somebody in that respect, but it's like we're almost saying whatever degree you are at this moment, you've been demoted temporarily temporarily. Yeah you have lost privilege because we cannot have this out there right.

Speaker 3 23:30

We cannot allow you to interrupt everybody else's journey, right.

Speaker 2 23:34

I can't imagine. I think my biggest fear would be having a third degree, that we would have to go. You cannot facilitate ritual anymore. You, you need to take a forced hiatus.

Speaker 2 23:49

Oh, that's rough that is, and I could easily see all of the issue. I mean and don't get me wrong, my god, there's gonna be people. I could see it. People are gonna go. Well, I'm gonna go off and do my own thing or I'm gonna. You know, there's gonna be a lot of retaliation and a lot of Immediate backlash from it that I think you cannot react to. No, you have to instead go Okay, that's fine. If that's what you need to do, that's what you do, and let them simmer the hell down. Eventually it will work out, it'll be fine, it'll kind of they, once they get the help they need, they will come to their senses.

Speaker 2 24:31

Yes and everything will be fine. But in the immediate, oh, it's gonna be rough.

Speaker 3 24:38

Again, again. And if you're out there and you're dealing with people like this, you, whatever they say to you when they're going through this, you can't take very personally.

Speaker 2 24:45

No cuz. Oh my god, You're gonna hear some awful shit. They and and I think the other thing to note here and this is where we are very big on the good of the many outweighing the good of the one- right. I also have no problem being that priestess who goes. Okay, if one of us can't control our liquor, none of us has liquor Right well, again it was just like it.

Speaker 3 25:14

Again, we solved the problems that we normally do. If we got two people fighting in temple, what happens? Both go right. If you can't solve the problem, we will right, I have absolutely no issue.

Speaker 2 25:25

I mean, really, the only alcohol that is a mandatory part of any service is the wine in the chalice. And you know what? I have never read anything that said it Couldn't be sparkling cider juice yeah, I write something non-alcoholic, right, so be it.

Speaker 2 25:43

And If that individual is not able to keep themselves together a long enough to complete a temple function without alcohol, then we have a clear view of what's going on, exactly yeah. Or if they're showing up to temple drunk or anything like that I mean. So sometimes, yes, you have, everyone has to suffer a little For that greater good. Is it really that biggest sacrifice? Come on.

Speaker 2 26:13

And that's fine, it's fine, it's not the end of the world. I do think though, yeah, I mean, sometimes you have to make provisions, and they can be, you know, they can be challenging. I mean. I think things that, especially if, if, if ritual is being held at your home, I don't know about you, but have you ever felt the need to write inventory your medicine cabinet?

Speaker 3 26:38

No.

Speaker 2 26:39

OK, but I could see it happening. I could see it happening easily.

Supporting Substance Abuse Recovery Programs

Speaker 2 26:44

You know, we have to be aware of those sorts of things. Maybe if someone in your home is on a painkiller of some you know having a narcotic readily of it, that's probably not such a great idea Move it, lock it up that night like put it somewhere else. This is how we avoid really common problems. Yes, then you also have things like marijuana, which I always think is funny because it's so common. Now right, it's so widely used. But again the issue becomes if you've got someone who has a drug problem, are we OK to be that enabler to just go? Oh, it's just a little weird. Is that really how that works? Is that?

Speaker 3 27:25

OK, well, I'm going to again not not comparing anything, but I've recently quit smoking in the past five years. I know for right now in my head, if I, if I pick up one one drag.

Speaker 2 27:38

Yeah, it's on and it's on.

Speaker 3 27:40

Yeah, and I still don't necessarily have, I guess, the predictive, the addictive personality, so I can imagine what it would be like for these people to be like ten times worse.

Speaker 2 27:50

By point. That's my point, it's so. Yes, there may be situations where we have to say this Maybe it was previously permitted and now it is not.

Speaker 3 28:02

Sorry kids Sorry.

Speaker 2 28:03

You know, things change. It is not fair. It is not. We should not be creating an environment where someone feels like they are being tempted or that their sobriety is being compromised. Right and that's. I think that's a reasonable thing, but big picture is please, please, please. If you have someone who is in need of help, help them get it. Don't let your personal views about the the 12 step programs cloud the fact that this could really be the answer this person needs.

Speaker 3 28:43

I mean the fact is, and then again, we can't. There's no way to argue this. The program works. I've met too many people who have been through these programs Absolutely. They are better people now, absolutely.

Speaker 2 28:57

I have a friend who's going on 25 years and Bravo. Yeah, yeah, and I actually the last time I saw her we had a long talk about just that, about the, the LGBTQ community in recovery and some of the different things that her groups are doing. But we have to be aware part of that community service piece is being at least educated enough on these things that you're not blindsided when inevitably it comes up yeah. Yep.

Speaker 3 29:31

Well, I think I'm about out of coffee.

Speaker 2 29:32

You know what I know for a fact is a major, major component of any good meeting.

Speaker 3 29:38

What Coffee? Coffee yeah. Because that's the one drug we can all agree on, I think they're the only people that drink as much coffee, if not more than us Absolutely, and to that I say cheers.

Speaker 4 30:26

And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks.