An Exploration of the Word Coven: Good or Bad?

Venture into the heart of pagan and witchcraft communities, as we unravel the intricacies of our spiritual groupings. Ever wonder why 'covens' carry a certain stigma, or why we sometimes prefer the term 'temple' over 'church'? Join us as we peel back the layers of confusion, examining why certain terms matter and how they shape the collective consciousness of our practices.

As we journey on, allow us to ignite your inquisitive spirit by tackling the sometimes delicate art of questioning within witchcraft. Have you ever pondered the 'why' behind a ritual, or felt the prickly resistance when sacred customs are nudged? Lady Alba and Lord Night share tales of enlightenment sparked by such challenges, like a lesson learned from a simple question about grinding incense. This episode is a tribute to the alchemy of curiosity and dialogue, a reminder that the path to profound spiritual growth is paved with introspection and the bravery to refine what we hold dear. So, brew your favorite coffee and sit down with us. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:25

Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. Here are your hosts, Lady Alba and Lord Knight.

Speaker 2 0:32

Okay, lord Knight. So what the hell are we as groups go? Are we covens, are we groves, are we temples? Are we temples? Are we churches? I don't know. There's so many options, and I think what's funny is that the choices are endless right, but coven itself has become a bad word. Yes, why?

Speaker 3 1:03

It's all the connotations to it. It's the. For some reason, people seem to want to associate covens with cults, and I think it's because of the secrecy, mystery religion that it is.

Speaker 2 1:23

But it's just a shortening of coven instead. Yes, and the church is home, more or less, or a gather yeah, it's a group gathering together. Churches were called coven steds at one point. No, that I did not know Long time, I mean, but that was where it originated. I mean, that's yeah.

Speaker 3 1:43

So but now you sit there and you ask people what coven they're a part of and it's like, oh God, I don't know how to explain that, like you just asked them the most evilest question in the world I know.

Speaker 2 1:56

It kind of. It kind of sucks, because coven for many of us was a reclaiming word. Right To use the word coven it was. First of all, it was a very quick association, right, it was very easy to go. Okay, coven witch got it Easy, easy. But so, like in our case, life temple. If I remember correctly, lord Min called it a temple because often people just assumed we were Jewish. Pretty much, yeah, because that's the only other faith that uses the word, that word yeah, regularly. But what he meant was more as like temple, like Egyptian yes, more the yes, a temple of worship, right, yeah.

Speaker 3 2:45

Which, again, has always been our focus is on the worship religious side of this not.

Speaker 2 2:50

Right, I mean I think I think so often the name is usually derived or what version gets used. Is the founders association right, or what they are drawn to? So if you're the oceanic water, you're going to go with something that's ocean or sea or lake or rip, you know one of those Whereas grove or forest, or you know that's an option that some people choose because of the worshiping in the woods kind of component, the forestry, the earth connection, right. And then I mean, and then some groups, they just went with church because they're like that's what we are, that's right, we're just a church, okay. So here's been what I've always wanted to do.

Speaker 3 3:38

Okay.

Speaker 2 3:40

I want, I want ocean moon grove, so that the act, the abbreviation becomes OMG, yes, yes, omg.

Speaker 3 3:51

Well, see, now this is all funny because we're talking about all this, but let's be honest in the traditional community of which we run around.

Speaker 2 3:58

Yes.

Speaker 3 4:00

We never refer to each other as oh, that's their coven, that's their way. No, weirdly enough, we only refer to each other by the name.

Speaker 2 4:10

Yes, it just becomes a shortening. So yes, it becomes to Wathakere, dashi or Grove of the Unicorn, or Ravenwood or yeah, or it's just life temple.

Speaker 2 4:25

We always have the temple in there because, just to say life, people would get confused, so they need the temple to quantify the group. But yeah, I mean Ravenwood technically right, their name is Ravenwood Church of the Old Religion. No one's using that in full title. Why, well, it doesn't work as good as a save at all. And then we just refer to each other as traditions, really not even groups. Or, yeah, you will hear group, yeah, actually. Yeah, my group is in North Carolina or whatever yeah.

Speaker 3 4:59

Or you'll hear. You know I follow the Ravenwood tradition.

Speaker 2 5:02

Yes.

Speaker 3 5:03

It's not the traditions, like you hear the majority of times on Alan Wild Public of Garnarian Alexanarian blah. These are very specific.

Speaker 2 5:14

Yes, it's extremely specific to the area in which you live, or state, city, etc.

Speaker 3 5:21

So now, with that in there, wine world has come and become such this and, associated with this, authoritarian because we don't really use it in this way that they're talking about.

Speaker 2 5:33

No, but we do, but we don't, but we do, we don't. It's like I think the biggest thing is it automatically. For most people, right, it means order. That's what no one likes. It's order. It's order and it's structure and it's that sameness that we strive to achieve inside of circle Right that others don't like. They want the willy-nilly, they want it to be.

Speaker 3 6:03

They want that spiritual aspect of religion.

Speaker 2 6:07

But they don't want it to be rigid or militant or predictable. They find that to be too confining for their faith or their practice, which I find very strange.

Speaker 3 6:20

Well, I mean, because we handle. We actually handle this, I think, in a very mature way. Again, our priestesses handle our spiritual and it is as priests who handles our mundane. Well, yes so we're able to re-inject that spirituality when you're in religions to where you have to have a committee about a committee to see if you're going to have a committee about the problem.

Speaker 2 6:42

Yes, that's part of it, for sure, but I find that the mechanics are what people have issue with, right. And I look at it this way I go. Everything that I do inside of circle is choreographed, it's orchestrated, it has been practiced to the point where I know it without having to think about it, and it is that that frees up my mind for the spiritual working at hand. If I'm worried about where my foot is going next, I'm not going to achieve that. Yeah, the same level of connection.

Speaker 3 7:22

Because you're so worried about doing the process instead of enjoying the process.

Speaker 2 7:26

The physical, the mundane becomes overpowering throughout it. And but at the same time, I really do think that's what some people are railing against and I wish they would understand. It's not, it's not a bad thing, it's not what it means. We're not taking away your individuality by doing that. We're not.

Speaker 3 7:50

No, I mean, at some point or another you have to sit there and go. Okay, ritual is going to be held at this time, class is going to be at this time Because, unfortunately, if you go into the spiritual too much, you go into too much chaos, yes, and you never know, and then you wind up with doing the pagan standard time.

Speaker 2 8:09

But people also. I think the group dynamic has become one where no one likes being told they're wrong, and I mean, nobody likes that anyway.

Speaker 3 8:17

No.

Questioning and Reflecting in Witchcraft

Speaker 2 8:19

But the difference is back in the day, right, If you got told you were wrong, you went. Okay, why, yeah? And it opened up a discussion and everybody talked and maybe you walked away with a new perspective or a new viewpoint. Maybe you didn't, Maybe you dug your heels in and you held true to where you stood when you walked in the door, but either way, we all just went. It's okay. It's okay and it was fine. Now it seems like when you tell a new which a young, which a whatever you know, someone who's been practicing for a few years, if you tell them they're wrong.

Speaker 2 9:03

Quote unquote right that's it, it's over. There is. The discussion ends. There, isn't? They just don't want to be told that. They don't want to be told that their practice, their way, their method is incorrect.

Speaker 3 9:20

Right, everything they have put their time and effort into is not.

Speaker 2 9:24

But I always go. Then how do we grow If we're not ever willing to stop and dissect what we're doing and say, maybe this isn't right. How do I grow? How do I learn anything more? How do I advance? Because I'm just going off of my own ideas.

Speaker 3 9:43

You're spinning your own wheels.

Speaker 2 9:45

You're operating in a vacuum.

Speaker 3 9:47

Yeah, you're being the little hamster on his little wheel, mm-hmm, running as fast as you can and not going to work.

Speaker 2 9:54

Yeah, I will always go back to as simple as it is. There was an instance when I was in Neophyte and I don't remember ex I don't remember all the details because I probably wasn't privy to them, honestly, but a first degree was making an incense in a mortar and pestle and they were moving the pestle direction wise it was. You know whether it was Witter Shins or DSL, I don't remember, but they were moving in a very particular Right and you went. Why are you doing that?

Speaker 2 10:35

I remember that and goddess help the poor first degree who went because Lady Maya told me to I thought you were going to take the mortar and pestle and throw them across ritual space. You were livid and it wasn't because of what they said, it was the fact that that statement was problematic, for which you don't do it, because someone else told you to why. Why are you doing that? What purpose does it serve? What is the logic, the reasoning? There's more to it.

Speaker 3 11:22

Right. There's no right or wrong answer. I want to know why.

Speaker 2 11:26

Yes, and it was obviously an issue you had had or seen with this person before, hence the thing I wasn't privy to.

Speaker 3 11:34

There was something else going on there.

Speaker 2 11:36

But it was just so funny and I remember. But that's some of what we face nowadays is that people, especially we're seeing it a lot with the hereditary witches yes, the people who are now coming up and going, you know which? I mean? I can't believe I'm saying it, but like, yeah, I mean you have people who are between 15 and 25 years of age, who were raised by practicing witches, who are probably around our age.

Speaker 3 12:10

Yeah.

Speaker 2 12:11

And they are now considered to be hereditary witches because they were raised in a household of witchcraft. Fine, but a lot of those hereditary folks when you ask them or when you question aspects of their practice, they go this is what I was told to do, or this is what my mom did, this is what my grandmother did, this is what my uncle did.

Speaker 3 12:35

This is what we've always done.

Speaker 2 12:37

But why they don't have an answer?

Speaker 3 12:41

Well, again, we normally illustrate this because I love to tell the story.

Speaker 2 12:45

I know where you're going. It is a great story.

Speaker 3 12:47

All right. Well, blaze happens to love this story, so here we go. There was once a little girl whose mother made the best roast. So she asked her dad, mom, what makes your roast taste so good? Well, I cut the ends off. Well, why does that make it so good? I don't know. Your grandmother did it that way. When she gets here you can ask her. Grandma shows up. The girl climbs up and her grandma's like why does cutting the ends of the roast off make it taste good? I don't know. My mom told me that as soon as your nanny gets here, you can ask her.

Speaker 2 13:20

Great grandma walks in the door.

Speaker 3 13:21

Great grandma walks into the door, it's more likely the girl crawls up into a great grandmother's lap going why does cutting off the ends of the roast make it taste better? She stopped for a moment and thought about it. She's a Lord child. I used to do that just to make it fit in the pan.

Speaker 2 13:36

Yes, ask why. Yes, please. That is so much of what is lacking and it's ironic because, ok, that little girl just had the audacity to ask. Often, when you're growing up in a hereditary family, there are many, many things you will get a deferred answer on. We'll talk about that when you're older. I'll tell you that when you're older. That's a mystery, for when you're older, those are the kinds of things you'll hear.

Speaker 2 14:12

Now the problem is if you continue on into your adult life, assuming at some point that you know the answer, you've figured it out, but you never actually ask the qu-. Hey, remember that thing that you said we would talk about it while I'm older. While I'm older, can we talk about that now? Yeah, you don't ever actually have that confirmation, you're just assuming. So it is very, very wise to have those conversations. No one, okay, not no one. I would like to believe that no one is challenging your beliefs. They are simply opening up a discussion. Are there probably a few people that are in fact challenging your beliefs? Sure, but for the most part, when most groups pagans, covens, priestesses, high priests when we approach that is, our objective is to have a conversation and to share valuable information, so everyone is enriched. Yes, it is not because we're trying to discredit you.

Speaker 3 15:23

Or to make you feel bad.

Speaker 2 15:25

Or take something away from you. How the hell can I take that away from you?

Speaker 3 15:30

I am not going to tell you how many students I've had to talk down after almost sitting my sleeve on fire over the years, and it's kind of like calm down, everybody does it at some point.

Speaker 2 15:40

Yes, but I really, truly. I've always kind of found it interesting how upset people get. Now I'm like, if you're 20 years old and you tell me you're a hereditary witch and your mom was pregnant with you when she was initiated, what the hell can I take away from you? Nothing, nothing. You are what you say you are. It's fine. Now, does that mean that my church will necessarily recognize you as a degreed member of Kraft? No, but it doesn't mean that I'm taking anything away from what you've learned thus far. No, it just means if you were to want to pursue education or opportunity with a traditional group like mine, we would go, listen, we get it, we understand, but just so you know, at some point you'd have to go after your first degree.

Speaker 3 16:45

Yes.

Speaker 2 16:46

Because, as it stands right now, you would not be a practicing member of clergy. Nope, that's it. That's all it means. It's not that big a freaking deal, well, I?

Speaker 3 16:57

always find it hard and difficult when people don't realize that we are the clergy.

Speaker 2 17:03

Yes.

Speaker 3 17:05

And we need to act and behave as such. Yes, and train ourselves as such.

Speaker 2 17:11

Look, there are an awful lot of people from various backgrounds who will approach their view of their coven, instead of the things that they were taught, with an air of superiority. You know what it's? Because they worked for it. They did, they worked for it, they worked their ass off to attain that knowledge and that level. So forgive them if they come across a little uppity, but for the most part, I promise you their intentions are decent and this is the discussion we have to open up if we expect craft to survive, yes, and to evolve forward, because if we don't, we're in big trouble because covens are not seeing numbers like they used to.

Speaker 3 18:08

No.

Speaker 2 18:08

Yeah.

Speaker 3 18:09

No, and there are points to them, there are advantages.

Speaker 2 18:14

Well, you also have and again, we're just being totally honest here there have been those who have abused the titles who have done shitty things.

Speaker 3 18:25

Yep.

Speaker 2 18:25

Who have taken liberties with their members. I mean there's all kinds of crap, but part of that is again investigate. Ask questions.

Speaker 3 18:40

Really investigate and ask questions about the temple you're wanting to join.

Speaker 2 18:43

I mean I'd need a lot of women who are very concerned about the goings on right. Get the priests of a church. I'm like just talk to some people, go. Go to one ritual, one event. If you get the hebeys leave, that's it. There is. You're not going to put yourself in a shitty position, don't, and I mean you don't have to go by yourself.

Speaker 3 19:13

Take a friend.

Speaker 2 19:14

I have even gone so far and this is as a degree to initiate. If I was unclear on a group's practice and I didn't feel like I quite had a handle on what was going on, I would ask if I could observe. Yeah, I would. Just I would like to sit outside of circle. Is it OK if I observe? No one says no, they don't care.

Speaker 3 19:42

The only way that's going to say no is if it's a closed event of some kind.

Speaker 2 19:47

And I mean that's, you wouldn't be invited to that anyway.

Speaker 3 19:50

No, but I mean, you wouldn't even know that was going on, exactly.

Speaker 2 19:56

So I mean there is nothing wrong in exploring options. You may be quite surprised at the community that you do find and the resources that you find are available to you.

Speaker 3 20:11

I mean you. You're in a room with people that believe pretty close to what you do, with all sorts of life experience. You ain't never had Yep and you walk away for such a bank of information and knowledge and even even my daughter who, by far of most of the she's not a social creature.

Speaker 2 20:37

Ok, she's just not. She's just not a big people person Through out her training and her time in the church. She doesn't do a lot of extracurricular social activities. She doesn't hang out with her classmates very often she just kind of does her own thing. Now, does it mean that they've not had still a meaningful bond that's been formed or that? You know, they of course, but she's choosing not to allow the church to be a social outlet right more than it needs to be. She's like nope, this is what I'm here to do and that's totally fine, and a lot of people make that decision. We can't force you to socialize. We're not going to force you to have, you know, to go on bowling night or what we've ever done a bowling night to my knowledge, but you know maybe we should, maybe we should.

Speaker 2 21:32

But yeah, you are free to come and do as you please, it's OK. So just just keep that in mind. I really ask yourself am I, am I gaining something by being solitary, or am I denying myself an opportunity to learn by continuing to be solitary?

Speaker 3 21:55

Good way to ask.

Speaker 2 21:57

I need more coffee. How about that? Ask OK.

Speaker 1 22:03

Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetemposeminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube and Reddit. I love our days, so walk with me till morning.