Beyond the Rituals: The Heart of Religious Identity

Have you ever wondered what truly defines a religion? Join us as we dissect the fascinating criteria that the U.S. federal government uses to distinguish religions from other belief systems. In a thought-provoking conversation, we peel back the layers of faith, exploring the significance of holy elements, articles of faith, liturgy, and the unbreakable bond of community. Prepare to engage with a narrative that questions whether a religion without community can maintain its sacred core, and how personal resonance with spiritual practices can lead to a harmonious existence.

Wander down the metaphorical path of spirituality and wisdom with us, where we confront the complexities of defining sacred across diverse religions while acknowledging the bedrock that supports these institutions. Through our journey, we debate the modern reluctance towards structured religious practice and shed light on the challenges less mainstream beliefs face in gaining formal recognition. Grab a cup of your favorite brew and tune in to share in this discussion of human faith and belief.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:25

Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. Here are your hosts, Lady Abba and Lord Knight.

Speaker 2 0:34

You know, it's a fun day on the podcast when Lord Knight actually breaks out the lecture series in order to discuss a topic. So we have decided to talk about what makes a religion.

Speaker 3 0:50

So, according to the federal government, there are five things that makes a religion. So I'm sorry. I've always enjoyed this lecture.

Speaker 2 1:01

Yeah, it's a good one. Okay, so the five statutes from the United States federal government. You must have something holy.

Speaker 3 1:11

Right.

Speaker 2 1:12

You must have your articles of faith. In a sense, what defines the faith? You have to have beliefs of various kinds, you have to have liturgy and then you have to have a community. So with those you have the foundation for religion. Now again, this is only according to the government, but I mean, I think it's still a good start point.

Speaker 3 1:40

Well, I mean, what we got to ask ourselves is why in the world did they pick these, why these five things, why are these more important than anything else?

Speaker 2 1:49

Well, because I think, I mean again, when we look at it from a government standpoint, right, they had to define it, because if they didn't, anybody could just be like I'm a religion, no one would pay taxes. But it is a sound basis, right? I mean the idea of something being whole. I mean, here's the thing a lot of these concepts are intangible. We know this, but we address them anyway, right? So having something that is holy can be anything. It could be a person, it could be a thing, it could be a concept, it could be an idea, it could be a place. I mean, yeah, but there's got to be something that's being venerated.

Speaker 3 2:31

Exactly. There's something that you believe, that there is something more and greater than yourself, absolutely Even, regardless if it's science or philosophy or deity.

Speaker 2 2:43

Yeah, the idea that you have to have faith. I mean right, we almost say that like it's a George Michael song, but it really is. It's the definition, right. What does the faith believe? What does it entail? What is the what's the structure, what's?

Speaker 3 3:03

our morals? What's our ethics? Where do we pull these things from?

Speaker 2 3:07

Yeah, tenants, all of that, and then you have the actual beliefs, right.

Speaker 3 3:13

Right.

Speaker 2 3:14

Yeah, these are pretty critical elements, but you know, we also kind of have to look at what isn't a religion, right? This is where the cult topic always wears its head. What's the difference and all of that. So it's fascinating because I think ancestrally people did not think of these things that we identify as paganism as a religion. It was just a way of life, it was how you lived.

Speaker 3 3:43

It wasn't the equivalent of the back in the days. You would get up in the morning, probably had a little bit of undercooked meat or something the night before have to take care of that. So then you go by the healer hut, grab a little mixture there. Then you go see your chieftain that tells you where in the world all the other hunters are and you have to run out there and catch up with them. The equivalent of modern day is this you wake up in the morning. You have about a diarrhea. You go to CVS, oh my God. Then you go into working and get your assignment. That's pretty funny. Nothing has changed.

Speaker 2 4:17

Not really, not really, but here's the thing I tend to liken it more to. I think the Islamic faith is a good reference here, because they really incorporate their religious practice into every aspect of what they do, and it makes no difference where they are, who's around, who's involved. They are going to honor their beliefs. Yes, and it's not. I don't know. It's not a burden, it's not an imposition, it's just you just do it.

Speaker 3 4:55

It's the thought that your life should be interrupting your religion, not your religion interrupting your life.

Speaker 2 5:02

Right, but that, as we know, is an incredibly difficult concept for most people and, of course, this is also where most people just go well, but spirituality, yeah, I mean sure, but spirituality just means that you believe in something greater than yourself. But is it defined? No-transcript, that's where everybody gets hung up nowadays. Nobody wants to define it, Nobody wants to put you know their deity in a box.

Speaker 3 5:29

Well, I can understand this to a certain extent, because I've heard you even say that as soon as you've learned the mystery that luster is sometimes Mm-hmm, it can be.

Speaker 2 5:38

Yeah, that's true, but structure is important for unification and to be able to actually have the community component of things, because without the community do you have a religion?

Speaker 3 5:54

You cannot be a religion of one Right.

Speaker 2 5:57

And there's the irony. And right now, paganism is very divided and very all over the place. Right, there's so many solitaries, there's so many people that are self-practicing. They just kind of go I'm spiritual in my practice, okay, but is it really a religion that they're practicing? I don't know.

Speaker 3 6:17

I have no idea. I mean again. No, we don't always get to show up for ritual. You get older, you have physical problems. Sure, it happens, sure, all right, that's not a lack of spirituality, no.

Speaker 2 6:30

But people are railing against this right now. Right, there's so many of those five points that make up what a religion is. People are like I don't want that, and the question really is why? Why? It's very strange, and I think the answer to that really does begin and end with the community piece.

Speaker 3 6:51

Because we honestly believe that if your spiritual life is in order, the rest of your life seems to fall with very little effort.

Speaker 2 6:59

Yeah, it's true, and I mean I have met fulfilled solitaries throughout my days. You know people who really do. They practice on their own and I still feel like they went through the steps necessary to truly learn the faith before they chose that. Yes, in many cases not always, but right now there's a lot of very scattered definition, but I think Christianity also has this too in some respect.

Speaker 3 7:34

Yeah, yeah, I mean they're having their issues too, all of this.

Speaker 2 7:38

Yeah, so it's also interesting because it's not like we see new religions very often and, oddly, more often than not, right when you do encounter a new one, it immediately gets branded a cult. Yes, and there is usually something nefarious or strange going on there. But religions are strange. Yes, let's be honest, it's weird. If we took ourselves out of any religious setting and looked at it objectively, our own included we're all nuts.

Speaker 3 8:14

Yes, I mean, come on. But I find it funny is we will sit there and mock or pick on someone for standing there talking to themselves, but as soon as they sit in a church and start putting their hands together and praying, it's no longer funny.

Speaker 2 8:28

No, they're just exercising their religious rights. They just block, right. I mean it's. It is really bizarre, though To me it's, you know, like the belief component. I'll look at that for a minute. I've had so many conversations with Christians Catholics mainly in my world who I don't believe in ghosts. You don't. Last time I checked, it is a major component of your faith. Yes, right, and you know what? Now, even called a Holy Ghost, for God's sake, and you know, yeah, people can argue that it's not really what it means. Yes, it is. It's exactly what it means the mere fact of death and resurrection. That's absolutely what it means. Specter spirit, disembodied souls yeah, disembodied souls. Thank you, spectral. Anything, right? Yes, a person who is now other, absolutely, but yet there are many people of faith. Oh, I don't believe in that. So I don't know. I don't know it's. You know, modern society has really done religious disservice by focusing on the worst possible parts of it.

Speaker 3 9:52

Yes.

Speaker 2 9:53

But at the same time, you know, yeah, it is wise to acknowledge it's kooky, yes, but does it make it wrong? No, no, is it bad? Well, again, therein lies the big question. Does it benefit you? Does it make you a better person? Does it fulfill something in your soul?

Speaker 3 10:17

Does it bring you peace? Does it make you want to be a better person?

Speaker 2 10:20

Because if it does those things, who cares? I don't see an issue. I think when it becomes a problem is when people feel like they're either being taken advantage of or their faith is putting unrealistic demands on them, or where people start telling you what you must believe.

Speaker 3 10:45

That's fascinating To me. There's a difference between being taught something and me standing up there going, no, you must think this way, you must believe this. To me this seems like it would make too many psychological issues that you don't believe something but you're trying to force yourself to believe something.

Speaker 2 11:04

That's a good point, but you know it's funny because we also tend to pass judgment on other religions, whether we mean to or not. I mean, like I don't know too many pagans that don't look at traditional Mormonism a little cross-eyed.

Speaker 3 11:21

Don't get me on the whole transistanciation thing either.

Exploring Religion and Belief Systems

Speaker 2 11:25

We all right, exactly. I will never forget one of our members. There was a conversation about transistanciation and she was literally pounding her fist on a table, going we do not eat our gods. I was like, oh, that's a good point, yeah, that's a really good point. But you know, for her that was a big, that was a hang up right. That was important. That was an important distinction for her between our cakes and wine and communion. But you know, look, I will encounter sometimes Mormons and I'm like, oh my god, you almost feel like they're women or so repressed. But again, it's kind of like are they happy? If they're happy, shot them. Do we really have the right to tell them that it's wrong or it's like?

Speaker 3 12:23

Again, I don't think either one of us believe any religion is wrong. No, now, a religion might be wrong for me, but it might not be wrong for someone else.

Speaker 2 12:35

Yeah, I think it's just that we are so used to being told explore what's good for you, explore your truth, what do you believe in, what makes you happy, what makes you fulfilled, that when we look at something that seems too rigid, we're going to feel bad for them Because we feel like maybe those people have not been given the opportunity to do the same.

Speaker 3 12:59

But at no point do we ever sit there and do the same. People look at it going, but are they happy? Is this working for them? Just because it doesn't work for you does not mean it doesn't work for somebody else. So again, I can't bash any religion, because if it's a spiritual growth, it's true, there's the other components of.

Speaker 2 13:20

I think a lot of people get disillusioned and so we go back to the beginning the holy, the beliefs, the faith, those three right there. It's like how you look at food I guess you might taste something and go that's disgusting and somebody else thinks it's amazing. It's not really all that different. But again we have such a bad taste in our mouth about religions that we don't like. There's not an easy way to really say, okay, this makes a religion, this makes a faith. But there is one thing that I do think is critical, and I hate to say it, because it takes all the mystery away. Right, it takes all of the spiritual, it's structure. Yes, it's that part that we kind of hate, but we go oh, that's important.

Speaker 3 14:10

Well, again, when climbing a hill might be rewarding and stuff like that, it's a whole lot easier when there's some steps to help you along the way.

Speaker 2 14:19

Yeah, it's true. But I mean, let's be honest, there are some religions that, if you were to ask their leaders or people that are, whatever just higher up the chain, I guess, define all of the things that you find holy. How much time do we have? You've got libraries full of things that some Catacombs, yes, that people believe are holy. That's impressive and it's not that easy right to just boil it down. But there's structure, there's teaching, there's codes of conduct, there's liturgy, there's every aspect of the infrastructure to run that church is in place, yes, and that is critical because if you don't have that, it's going to be chaos.

Speaker 2 15:20

What I've always found interesting is in the Christian faith, like right, so for us, if you break off and you start a new church, we call it a hyven Right. Right, because we will support that new priest or priestess in that effort under our tradition, our banner. But, like in the Christian faith, I mean, you know, sometimes you see people, you'll see a minister or a reverend or somebody just start a church. Yeah, it's kind of like whoa, how'd they do that? Because there's a lot like you. Like whose wing are you under? Like it's got to be somebody. You gotta have somebody help you out. Yeah, you didn't just come up with how to run a church over again.

Speaker 3 16:05

No, it's not like Christian churches aren't successful in the United States. Hmm, and I'm sorry, that formula is there. How hard is it to go the next county over going, okay, the big church here? What do I need to do?

Speaker 2 16:19

Well, more so than that. Look at how many seminary opportunities there are. Oh God, yes, there are whole colleges devoted right to nothing but religious studies and Specific religions. I mean, let's be honest, we have one here, literally a stone's throw from all of us, called Belmont Abbey. It is a purely Catholic seminary Beautiful, gorgeous campus, tiny tiny because I mean Belmont could be about as far from the dice, little Belmont, north Carolina, but it's throughout the world. Anyone who has the will and the desire to continue to further, be it Judaic, christian, muslim or any the major faiths, they have plenty of opportunities. Yeah, we don't have that quite the same way. It's a little harder for us, it's a little more challenging to find. To my knowledge, there's no collegiate recognition. I don't think there's a call. I could be wrong, but I mean I don't think there's a college offering.

Speaker 3 17:29

I don't think there's anything in the religious study. I think there might be a degree on the magic side.

Speaker 2 17:34

I I find that hard to believe. I think the best we can hope for is a degree in theology, your degree in religious studies.

Speaker 3 17:45

But to actually might be a few degrees in the occult.

Speaker 2 17:49

Mmm, that I could say, yeah, maybe, but, but I think honestly that's gonna be nothing but a history lesson, pretty much. You're not being taught how to run anything. You're just like here's Alistair Crowley and all the kooky crap he did, and you know, let's move on to the next one, right here's the yeah.

Speaker 2 18:06

here's what they learned in the ISIS, the College of Ice, yeah it's, and it'll, yeah, it'll take you back historically, sure, but I mean I don't feel like Religious studies, ironically, don't teach you how to Run a religion. You're studying other phase, I mean. Sure from it you could pick it apart and go. I think I could build something, but it's not easy. No, and it's funny because Pagan's at large, I mean we are just information hoarders and we love our books and our, our tomes. I mean, come on, who of us doesn't have a library of some sort? Right, we're bookworms because that is sacred to us, that knowledge. It's what little we've got. We gotta hold on to it.

Speaker 3 18:55

Well, I mean back in the day, I mean Lord, men finally pulled it all together, but we got paperwork from South Carolina. Prison system and these people would hold on to these things. And they were laminated and the whole nine yards and they. Pass this stuff around in the prison Because of the lack of information.

Speaker 2 19:13

Yeah, but it's still like that, you know it's. It's really, really interesting because there are certain elements of Pagan faiths that have not been Widely accepted in the same way. So I'll give you a great example. So, athem, a fame, whatever you want to call it right. We have a ceremonial knife. No one calls it a knife because it's not.

Speaker 2 19:42

Right. It has undergone a spiritual transformation that makes it other right and we call it something else. However, in most prison systems since you brought that up any book that discusses weaponry or knives or swords is banned. Make it make sense. I can't, I can't. That's the problem. I am sure oh look, I've never done it myself personally, but I'm sure that if we took the Bible and we did a word search and looked for knife, sword, spear, common old school weapons, right.

Speaker 3 20:27

I mean the word slingshots in there.

Speaker 2 20:30

Sure, but there's loads, there's got to be. There's plenty of references to violence and to weapons in the Bible, but yet every single prisoner would receive one if asked. Our texts get banned because they see those references not as what they are. For us, holy, faith-based, belief-based no, it is somehow inciting.

Speaker 3 20:58

It's ridiculous, it's utterly utterly ridiculous, I mean the fault of anyone in craft using their personal anthems to hurt someone.

Speaker 2 21:09

Insane, absolutely completely bonkers. But at the same time, huge difference between the physical having holding use of and a book Right, a book is not the weapon, even if you want to call it that. So, but therein lies the problem. But yet we are illegally recognized religion. But we're not. We're not clearly we're not. There's still plenty of areas in which we are, we are barred. I know this firsthand. I have sent books and materials To prisons and jails only to find out they could not be distributed. They could. The people requesting them could not receive them Because they were deemed to be inappropriate by the prison system. And it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how many chaplains you talk to it, their hands are tied. It's ridiculous. So I'm sorry. Part of me goes I don't really give a shit what the government says is or isn't a religion right, but I also have to because law of the land right. You know, yeah, I know, I know. So I don't. I don't know when this will change. It seems like a really strange thing that we're still going through this.

Speaker 3 22:40

Yes, especially nowadays. Mm-hmm, after everything, we've gone through All the stuff on TV, the whole nine yards.

Speaker 2 22:47

This should not be also, I hate to say it you make a really good point. Find me one historical account of someone who got stabbed with an anthem. Just one one. Just one and I'll shut the fuck up.

Speaker 3 23:00

All right, yeah, notice, I said anthem. I did not say so.

Speaker 2 23:07

But I don't know about you. I don't see where we're gonna have like new religions on the horizon. I don't feel like anybody. Is it reinventing the wheel right now?

Speaker 3 23:19

I sort of get this impression that nowadays everybody seems to think that religions have to be old. Well, yeah and that seems to be the mindset of all humanity that if it's not something, if it's new, then therefore it can't be real. It's not a real religion, mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 23:36

Yeah.

Speaker 3 23:36

I think that's part of some people's problems with paganism, because they don't think it's been around long enough, even though we could argue you the past, yeah.

Speaker 2 23:47

It's weird, it's really really weird when we start looking at these aspects. I mean, of course, I think about Scientology, because it's not that old, right, it's. It's, it's relatively modern, as religions go it somehow still has this monstrous following, despite all of its bad press and publicity and Weirdness yeah, and it's in the money and the. You know Some of the things that I mean. You know, they don't, yeah, it doesn't look good, it definitely doesn't. Doesn't put them in the best light, no, but they're still out there, they're still thriving, they're still doing their thing.

Speaker 3 24:27

I mean, well, you still have hairy Krishna's out there too, mm-hmm, yeah, I mean you don't hear them like they used to back in the 70s, right younger.

Speaker 2 24:33

but yes, they still exist as well, but I think the Hari Krishna's are based on something older. Yes, yeah, it's Hindu.

Speaker 3 24:42

Yeah, it's Hindu light, I don't know there's some kind of crossover there?

Speaker 2 24:45

I'm not. I don't know as much about it as I maybe should, but there are a lot of. We're seeing all the cult documentaries right now and you know all of these things that are being exposed about it, like it's almost. I think it's ironic. That's where some of the trend lies right now. How do we make a religion look bad, how do we expose secrets and you know, like that sort of thing. And it's funny because you would think a religion like paganism would be the source of A documentary like that, that that would really attract people's attention. But yet I think that that's the problem when, when you get down to it, they go, wow, this is pretty boring, okay, never mind, yeah.

Speaker 2 25:35

Actually yes there's no great scandal, there's no great thing Happening here.

Speaker 3 25:41

Well, again the stuff that they used to think when we were younger, that they thought you know the orgies and drugs and the party sacrifices.

Speaker 2 25:52

It was absurd. I mean I and I hate to say it, but like a lot of what we were getting accused of exists in some of the Spanish occult, you know, faiths and also in, you know, like voodoo, and it kind of gives me a giggle because I'm like what not? Not saying it's not real, but what not? Yeah, it's not kind of funny. So I don't know. I mean, have we answered the question? Have we answered what?

Speaker 3 26:24

I don't know, I guess yeah, it's just, it's a nice discussion.

Speaker 2 26:27

Yeah Well, let's get some more coffee, hi.

Morning Walk With Temple Life

Speaker 1 26:32

Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and coffee talk is brought to you by life temple and seminary. Please visit us at life temple seminary org for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and reddit.

Speaker 4 26:50

We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just Hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing fires. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning.