What is a tradition? Part 1 of 3

In this episode of Pagan Coffee Talk, we break down what tradition means in a traditional pagan path and how it differs from eclectic and solitary practices.

What is a tradition? How is it different from ritual? And why do structured paths place so much importance on initiation, degrees, and formal training?

We dig into how traditions are passed down from teacher to student, how they evolve over time, and why understanding the reason behind the practice matters just as much as the practice itself. From mystery teachings to temple protocol, this episode explores what it really means to be part of a living, working tradition.

We also tackle common misconceptions—that traditional paths are rigid, closed-minded, or restrictive—and explain how structure, discipline, and shared practice actually create consistency, growth, and community.

If you’ve ever wondered about the difference between traditional training vs. solitary or eclectic practice, or what it really takes to walk a structured spiritual path, this episode lays it out plainly.

Grab your coffee—this one goes deep.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk, a traditional Wiccan podcast where we will discuss topics affecting the pagan community from a traditionalist perspective. The topics we discussed are picked from our magical hat, and the discussions are unscripted. The talk will be led by Lord Chase Mike Smith, elder of the high priest of third degree, and he's joined by Keegan, first degree priesthood. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Stimulator.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. I'm Keegan, and as always, Lord Knight.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

So what's our topic today?

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Personally, what is a tradition to you?

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Well, let's start this by having you look up the word tradition.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

The transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way? Or a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures?

SPEAKER_00 1:13

That's a tradition.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Yep. So do we have do we have a sacred divine authority that is not in the scriptures?

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Yes, we do. What we have is I mean, we have our teaching. And again, you've got to remember we are a mystery tradition. And which for right now all I'll say about mysteries are there are two types. There are traditional mysteries, and then there are what I refer to as universal mysteries. Okay. And when we're talking about traditionals and stuff like that, we're talking about those traditional mysteries. Now these are mysteries that we can tell you what they are and why. The universal mysteries, not getting into big details, until you experience them, you ain't got a clue. Okay. Scooby-Doo ain't gonna help you with those. No. Scooby-Doo's not gonna help you with those. Research won't help you. Thinking won't help you. But until you go through them, you won't understand them. So you were taught the same information I was taught that I was taught by Lord Minn. Okay. Makes sense so far?

SPEAKER_03 2:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Which makes it a tradition. A tradition can be as simple as reading a poem. There's a certain poem in our tradition that we read every time during Sawin. But I mean it it to me it's it's the same poem every year that's read. The ritual, the bulk of the ritual might change and diverge a little bit. And that's what everybody gets confused about. When we talk about traditionalist, yes, we believe in a certain way, a certain way of doing things, a pattern of how you learn and the steps that takes to get initiated and all this other stuff.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Traditionalists use initiation for joining their coven.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

What about solitary practices or the eclectic?

SPEAKER_00 3:24

I mean, I can't speak for them back way back in the day. Way, way back in the day. You know, when I did solitary, I found that yeah, I would do certain things re repetitiously. There's certain things I would do for my full moons and my as bats over and over again. So I mean, speaking from that viewpoint, yeah, tradition comes in there. I don't see how it don't.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

What's the difference between or to you, what's the difference between tradition and ritual?

SPEAKER_00 4:05

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Well, um a ritual is a set of things that you do every time. But if I like the story you tell me with the meat being cut with the ends being cut off to fit in the pan, was that a ritual or was that a tradition? And is there a difference between the two?

SPEAKER_00 4:25

That is a tradition. Which now you got everybody confused because now they don't know what in the world you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Well, I'm sorry, it's a question that came into my head.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

All right, so first of all, let's look at the story. The story that Lord Men told me, and which I love this story, hence the reason I probably tell it all the time, is you know, there there's this little girl, and she notices her mom cutting the ends off a roast. So she looks at her mom, hey mom, why are you cutting the ends off the roast? And her mom responds, because it makes it taste better. But why? I don't know. It's the way your grandma did it. You'll have to ask her when she gets here. Little girl's satisfied with this, then the grandma shows up, she looks at her and goes, Hey grandma, why does cutting off the ends of the roast make it taste better? I don't know. You'll have to ask your nanny when she gets here. Because you know, when I was raised, she taught me to do the same thing. So I just taught your mom. So her nanny shows up, she climbs up on her nanny's lap and she goes, Nanny, the roast that you've taught grandma and my mom to cook tastes absolutely wonderful. But how come cutting off the ends of the roast makes it taste better? Her nanny looks at her and just in complete confusion for a moment and thinks about this problem, and then answers her, Lord child, I did that to make it fit in the pan. What I like about this story is that A, it illustrates how traditions come about, and how some traditions come about without knowing the why behind it. Right. And that's what I see mainly in people who do traditional craft, who part of covens and temples and stuff like that, they're taught the why behind it. Right. And some of them are traditional mysteries, which we're not allowed to discuss out in public. I could talk to someone, another traditionalist of another tradition other than mine, to some extent, about some of these mysteries. But if I'm meeting someone who's a solitaire or something like that, probably not. Let's look at it this way. There are certain things that most traditionals, not all, all I can do is speak about my tradition that we do in a certain format. You show up, you study, we give you 13 classes, and you you study, you pretty much learn how to in those classes how to function in temple. And we tell you off the bat, hey, you know, this is a way, it is not the way, we are not the holy of keeping of you know, all that is true. This is just how we do it. And basically sit there and tell you that, okay, this should give you enough information to where you could go to any traditional temple or any temple anywhere and pretty much know what in the world's going on and be able to function in a certain way. And be able to adapt to that environment. Because you know, you do have some temples that are less traditional and some that are more traditional. Where you know, you you might go into a temple and they don't follow all the protocol that we do.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Would they have protocol?

SPEAKER_00 7:56

It really depends on that tradition. There's some that are are eclectic groups and I've never seen any protocol there. But you go to some traditional covens and yes, that protocol must be followed. It's expected. Like in our tradition, which I you're not trying to get too deep into our protocol, but when you come in, the expectation is that you go see the high priestess and the priest first and elders before you basically talk to anybody else. That is a tradition. That is something that's passed down from one generation to the next. It shows respect and all this other stuff without trying to get too much into protocol. Right. Most traditions have some type of degree system. Majority of them I know about, including us, we do first degree, second degree, and third degree. You study, there's a process there, um, which in our tradition is a spiritual matter which falls onto the priestess to decide if you're ready for initiation. Just because you do classes in our tradition does not mean you automatically get initiated.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

You're educated, are you spiritually ready?

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Right. Those two of us are two different things. Then you have your second degree training, which you yourself know this is a very long and arguous process.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Yes, yes, it is. It's tradition.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

It's tradition.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

You have to learn.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

You have to learn. You know, you gotta go through a lot of poops there. Then you get your second degree, then you become a third degree. And at third degree, you pretty much can run your own temple independently to a certain extent from the main temple. Bonds are not completely broken, but we're not sticking our nose into the day-to-day runnings there.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

But there's no void of coven there.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

No, there's not. You know, we would still get together for um grand sabbaths or certain events. We would try to bring all these covens that we have or all these temples that we have together for those big events, kind of like homecoming. Right. You know, that process that process for us, on average, to go from neophyte all the way up to third degree is roughly about ten years, give or take, depending on the person.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

So when you're a third degree, you've earned it. Oh, Lord yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

When you're a second degree, you've earned it. But that announces that to the world or to the pagan community at large that, hey, you can go to them, you can trust them, they're gonna know their stuff. They're gonna have answers. Well, they better. They yeah, they better. Which, you know, I hate to be this way, it does bring up when you're talking about solitaries who decide one day, oh yeah, I'm gonna name myself Letty Greenbean, or you know, Lord Forever. You know, but I've only been studying for a year. That then breaks down where we're talking about the problems between traditionalists and solitaries. It's because we view these titles as recognition of achieving a certain level of study and spiritual growth there. And that, you know, we feel comfortable enough for you to go out and teach and educate and counsel people that you're going to pretty much know when to keep your mouth shut, when not to keep your mouth shut, and be able to actually help people.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

And that's not decided by the initiate, that's decided by the elders when or if you're ready for that, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Right. Well, I mean, let's be honest. Like right now, Miss Keegan. Keegan. No, notice the name there. Keegan. Keegan right now, you're you're studying for your second degree.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Studying bleeding to me.

unknown 12:25

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Some people find this very, you know, the whole classes and the structure of it very confining to a certain extent, because you know, there's a lot of times where you have to learn certain things before you start grappling with the mystery behind it. Well, you have to. Yes, you have to. It's taking steps. It's taking steps, but without the prior knowledge, you don't always have the appreciation of that mystery when you're finally either told or you finally figure it out. Right. I agree. Yeah. There's a difference between that and ooh, I understand this. I understand when we consider this so sacred.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Do you though? Do you? Do you really?

SPEAKER_00 13:18

I don't know about you know, you I understand nothing.

SPEAKER_03 13:24

Nothing.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

So is it does it come to down to traditionalists seem to study their religion as opposed to jumping in and just practicing it. Let's study while we're doing these things.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Study, learning, reading certain books, reading certain texts. Some of the books that you know you might wind up reading in our tradition have no connection to craft at a whole. Some do, some don't.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Some are just um helping you become a better person or how to know yourself better.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

How to know you how to know yourself. Um some have like I said have absolutely nothing to do. Um especially when you get into second degree, because at second degree we all sort of uh pick a field of expertise, as you know yourself.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

You know. And not sure if you want anybody on this podcast to know about this, but you know, you you yourself are studying herbalism. How many books have you read that have on herbalism that have nothing to do with witchcraft or magic at all, just to understand herbalism? More than the books I've read about the craft.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Right. There's the majority of them don't have anything to do with the craft at all.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Right. Well, see, and again, where I think a lot of people have problems with traditions is that as you're studying, and you know this just as well as I do, especially when you're studying at that first degree neophyte level, and you're trying to obtain that first degree, is you hear this a lot. That's a first degree mystery. That's a second degree mystery, that's a third degree mystery, or that's just a mystery. Yep. That's your monster. Now, at first this is annoying, all right? Now, because I I could see where somebody said back, you know, are they doing that as an excuse because they really don't know? No, they're not. What it is. But I don't know if you noticed when you were going through your first degree classes, was as we got closer and closer to the mysteries, it wasn't no longer it's a mystery, but we'll get to that a little bit later. It might have started off me saying a mystery, and then you'll well, we're gonna get to that in a little bit. It kind of reveals itself as you go. Sometimes it reveals itself so slow and stuff like that that we actually have to say, hey, by the way, this is traditional mystery, and you don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Write that down somewhere. You never caught that.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

That's a mystery. That's a mystery. You know, because I mean sometimes even again, you can verify this. Uh we'll be teaching stuff, or I'll be teaching stuff, and it's like in the first classes and stuff. And I've told you a bunch of mysteries, and y'all don't realize it until later. Much later. Much later. Much later.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Yeah. And you go, hey.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Hey. Because we'll start mentioning this at nine times out of ten. I have one I have a student sitting there going, raising their hand, going, hey, wait a minute. You talked about this back then. Yeah. And here's the significance of that.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Oh, now I get it.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Right. Yeah, and you never set us down and say, okay, time for the mystery unveiling.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

No. No, I mean, the majority of the time it's not that way. Hence the reason I'll sit there and I'll tell people, God forbid anybody actually listens to me. Very, it's very few and far between students that do this, is I will sit there and say, hey, write down all your questions. All right, because it always happens as soon as you leave, you're gonna think I should have asked this, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Because at the beginning of the next class, I'm always gonna ask you, does anybody have any questions about the previous class?

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

And you ask them, Well, as I go along, you if you notice when I teach, does anybody have any questions of anything we've already gone over?

unknown 17:54

No.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

And that means that I'm talking about all the previous classes. You can ask you know, you can go back to the first class and go, Well, you said this in the first class.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

First class is protocol.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Well, it is. But I'm just saying, you know, we could be in, you know, what at your thirteenth lecture, and you know, you could sit there and go, Hey, back in the second lecture, you s you said this. I still ain't understand what the significance was.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Right. You could be going to your second degree and say, you remember the third class you gave me as an if like. I still don't understand that.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Uh I don't think we're, you know, we do have our rules, we do have our regulations, we do have our bylaws that we adhere to as an organization.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Now these laws are separate from the wick and read.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Right. We follow Lady Sheba's laws.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

So what sets you apart from eclectic groups or solitaires? Is it just the rules and laws and regulations that you have?

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Uh believe it or not, I believe that's it. I mean, we have, and again, I'm speaking about Life Temple and Seminary, which is all I can really speak of. We have a diversity of traditions and people in temple. And I think where a lot of people get confused is what all we're saying is, you know, when we come together, regardless if it's a full moon or a Sabbath or a grand Sabbath, this is how we're gonna operate. This is what we're gonna do. That way we don't have somebody doing something off the wall somewhere else to keep the confusion down. That you know, we're we're all agreeing that, yeah, you're this, I'm that, and and and that's fine, and then we don't have a problem with that. But when we come together, we're gonna operate this way as a group. And then some people get this whole entire type of thought in there that once you join a temple or a coven, that you're not allowed to do your own personal rituals, you have to do ritual with temple, with your coven or group. Right. Which to me is not always necessary, or feasible, or possible. If you want to do your solitary work, that's fine, and just show up for grand Sabbath. The only thing I ask for, you know, my personal sanity is uh, you know, let me know. Because, you know, if you're showing up for all the rituals and then you suddenly stop or just start showing up just for the grands, I'm gonna pull you aside uh more out of concern.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Well, what about different pantheons? Can you have I know we are, you know, we have that Celtic foundation, but what about um are there those in our coven that is Greek or God, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

I I we have we have some that follow the Greek pantheon, we have I have we got some that study Native American, I have Roman, I Norse Nordic, and but when we come together, it don't really matter to us, you know, sitting down and having those conversations with each other about the different pantheons. Because there's no way in my head, there's no way one person can learn everything. It's impossible. You know, like my field of expertise is mainly teaching and magic and or religious theory. Trying to figure out just theory. Just theory in general. Just theory. Trying to figure out some of these older mysteries and stuff. And which, you know, there's a lot of debate there. When I come up with an idea or a hypothesis that I am sitting there to the group at large going, Hey, here's what I think I figured out and what do y'all think? Right. Please poke holes in it. You do like that. I love that. Yeah. Because y i the more holes y'all, you know, you can poke into it, the more I might have to rethink it.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

And you like that.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

I d I do. I enjoy that.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Give me another way of thinking about it. Anybody.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Give me anybody.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Anybody. Again, when we teach, we we try to teach that. I d at least I do. I try to teach people how to flip that coin, how to look at it in a different viewpoint, in a different light, from a different angle. However you want to put it.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

So as a traditionalist, you don't um these are the gods that we're going to study, these are the gods we're going to worship. Uh it's going to be this path only, there's no room for change or anything different. That's not a traditionalist.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Not to me. The traditional and it to me is having those formal studies. Again, certain rules. For example, if someone in your area, Keegan, which you know, me and you do not live close to one another anymore. But anybody in your area, I might get a message from that goes, hey, can you do a house blessing? blah, blah, blah. I really can't get up there at the time. I would call you because as a first degree, you're allowed to do a house blessing. Where second degrees are allowed to do other things, but we're only talking about under the auspices of temple. Okay. So, like I was saying, if somebody was called to have their house blessed and I couldn't get to them, but they live closer to you, I could call you and say, Hey, go do this house blessing. Here, you would be going as a representative of Life Temple and Seminary, and as a first degree, you can do that. Now, with that said, Julia or Bill or Bob down the street that happens to be friends with you come up to you and go and start asking for your advice and stuff like that. That's not you being a represent and even though they might know your religion, that might not be that's not what I would consider you representing temple. Oh, my own personal advice. Your own personal advice. Right. People have weird concepts about what a traditional is.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

You know I a lot of them think we're like really stiff shirts, um that, you know, we're always serious. We're really not.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

No room for change.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Can't no, no, no, this way. No change, can't look at things different ways. We are completely rigid, and you know, once you join us, you can't do this and you can't do that. And no, there are just certain things you can't do in the name of that temple. If you think about it in the business world, I'm not going to ask the janitor to put, you know, an electrical device together.

unknown 25:27

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Yeah, you know, you're not going to sit there and ask a secretary to go outside and run a CNC machine. Right. Who has no clue what in the world a C and C machine is to begin with. I'm not going to sit there and ask a first degree to do a job that is required by a second degree. And we all have our jobs. We all have our jobs. Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

And that's to make temple run smoothly.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yes. Nobody's a slave. Nobody has to do things. Yes, sometimes most of our temples are run in p people's homes. People have lives and stuff like that. So you might have a be going to a temple ran by a third degree, and that third degree might go, hey, you know what? Full moon's coming up. We're going to be doing, you know, we're of course we're going to be doing ritual at this time. I barely get off work to meet this time schedule where we have all decided that we can meet at. So can I get some first degrees to come over or some people to come over and help clean up the house right quick? Or bring the offering, make the offering, bring the offering. Right. Yeah, bring the cakes and you know, can you bring the cakes and wine? Can you bring cakes? Can you bring wine? You know, we're running low on candles and stuff like this. And I don't think what we're asking is a lot. It's nothing I haven't ever done myself. As a first degree, I had the responsibilities of a first degree. Lord Man would sit there and go, hey, we're doing ritual. Come over, you need to help me get cleaned up and set up.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Well, you learn that way too. Even if you are, even if your elder is sitting there and you are you cleaning or setting up the altar or cleaning the tools or whatever, there's conversation going on there. I think there's a lot of learning to be had.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Lord Min often had problems moving around. He was not always physically fit to do th certain things.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Able. He wasn't able.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

He wasn't able. Me in my longing years here. I I I cannot physically do as much as I used to. So, you know, yeah, if you got an elder sitting there and and you got a first degree that's twenty-something years old that can run circles around you, yeah, your elder might be sitting there. Might get up and take dishes to the uh to the kitchen and try to wash them.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

At least put 'em in a pile.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

At least put 'em in a pile or something like that. I mean, the majority of times at temple everybody pitches in, regardless of degrees.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

It's just different jobs for different degrees.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Well, I mean, like I said, there's certain things, but you know, it it's more done like a family thing. When we have grand Sabbaths and we have these big feasts, we pretty much know who's going to be cooking what ahead of time. Typically, in our tradition, temple tries to provide the main course, you know, what meat or whatever we're having, and somebody will volunteer to cook. In our case, it's more likely going to be Lady Alba. Sh she is our resident kitchen witch, and nobody can cook like her. You know, you eat some of the stuff she makes, she makes you want to go home and slap your mom going, why don't you clean cook? Why didn't you ever cook that way?

SPEAKER_02 29:04

But she doesn't find it a chore or she doesn't find it a menial or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Well, we're talking about a third degree here, but this is what she does. She does it out of, you know, the love for you know those at Temple. It's not done from, you know, oh, I gotta do this. Right. You know, don't get me wrong, her, like me, is getting on up in years and can't probably do as much, but she tries like crazy.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Pay for effort. Y'all have earned that, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Yeah. So she might have a couple of first degrees or maybe even a second degree, and they're helping her out doing some cooking and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Well, is there any strict regulations with degrees? You will do this, you won't do this. Is there anything that that as a traditionalist that you're strict with as far as degrees go?

SPEAKER_00 29:59

As far as degrees go?

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Um, there are a few things we are strict on. And they're very few and far between. One of the things that we stress more than anything else is that this has to come first. And a lot of people have a problem with this concept because they think, okay, that means I have to be there at every ritual, I've got to be there at every meeting, whatever, and dedicate myself to this and you know, forego having a social life or family or anything like that. I don't see that as true. When we say this comes first and is, yeah, you show up for ritual. We're gonna use one of my little sayings here.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

The ox story, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:51

Right. If your ox falls in the ditch on Sunday, either A, get your ox out or go to church, get your ox out. If your ox falls in a ditch every Sunday, either kill the ox or fill in the ditch.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Right. I love that one.

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Which basically translate is show up to ritual. Show up on time. Be prepared to actually do ritual when you get there. Because, you know, like during full moons, there's not sometimes this falls, you know, during the week, and a lot of people ain't got time to chit-chat or do whatever. It's we gotta get in there, do ritual, maybe have a little meeting afterwards, and everybody needs to go home because everybody's gotta get up early in the morning and go to work. Right. Things happen. Kids get sick, you get sick, um Cars break. Cars break down, dinners get burnt, there's that homework project that should have been done three months ago.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Sitting there.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Sitting there that's needed tomorrow and you can't show up. And if that happens, it happens. You know, but if you're miss a couple of rituals and we're again, we're used to you always being there, we're gonna give you a call. Hey, is everything all right? Is there anything we need to do to help you? Right. You know, you have this community behind you to help you out to a certain extent. I mean, we're not gonna pay your bills for you. Right. But, you know, if you're having car problems, there might be a mechanic in temple or somebody that knows more about cars more than me. Which could be a three-year-old for as much as I remember about cars sometimes. Um things like that happen, and we understand that.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Well, I'm out of coffee. Oh, I've been out of coffee.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

Thank you for listening to Peggy and Coffee Talk. I hope you join us next week.

SPEAKER_04 33:01

We travel down the straw stone in life. Just hold my hand as we pass by steel blazing fire.