What is a tradition? Part 3 of 3

Pagan Coffee Talk – Red Flags in Pagan Temples, Spiritual Integrity, and Preserving the Craft

In this episode of Pagan Coffee Talk, Lord Night and the crew tackle a topic that doesn’t get talked about enough: how to recognize red flags when searching for a pagan temple, coven, or teacher.

If you’re new to the path—or even if you’ve been walking it for years—this is a real, no-nonsense conversation about what to watch out for and what a healthy, traditional structure should actually look like.

We break down warning signs like overcharging for classes, secrecy taken too far, favoritism, lack of accountability, and teachers who won’t allow questions. Because let’s be clear—if you’re being told “just because” or everything is labeled a mystery with no progression, something’s off.

This episode also dives into the importance of asking why. Not just following instructions from a book or a person, but actually understanding the reasoning behind what you’re doing. Tradition without understanding becomes empty repetition—and that’s not what this path is about.

We also get into:

•  Why favoritism and inappropriate teacher/student relationships are a major red flag 
•  How initiates and neophytes should actually be treated in a proper training environment 
•  The importance of being able to visit other temples and explore the wider pagan community
•  Respect between different traditions, even when practices differ 
•  Why not everything labeled “sacred” actually is—and how people can lose the meaning behind their tools and practices 

And yes—we even have a little fun calling out the tendency to turn everyday objects into “sacred relics” without understanding why. (Because not everything needs to become a holy artifact.)

At its core, this episode is about discernment, personal responsibility, and spiritual growth. A real traditional path isn’t about control, ego, or blind obedience—it’s about learning, questioning, and evolving.

We close things out with what truly matters: preserving the craft and ensuring that what’s passed down actually has meaning, depth, and purpose—not just empty tradition.

Topics covered:

•  Red flags when choosing a pagan temple or coven 
•  Spiritual teaching vs. control and manipulation 
•  Why “because that’s how it’s done” isn’t good enough 
•  Favoritism, boundaries, and ethical teaching practices 
•  Exploring different pagan traditions respectfully 
•  What makes something truly sacred (and what doesn’t) 
•  Preserving the craft and fostering real spiritual growth 

If you’re serious about your path and want to avoid the pitfalls, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.

Join us on
Discord:  https://discord.gg/MdcMwqUjPZ
Facebook: (7) Life Temple and Seminary | Facebook

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:01

Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk, a traditional Wiccan podcast where we will discuss topics affecting the pagan community from a traditionalist perspective. The topics we discussed are picked from our magical hat, and the discussions are unscripted. The talk will be led by Lord Chase Mike Smith, elder of the high priest of third degree. And he's joined by Keegan, first degree priesthood. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Temple and Smith.

SPEAKER_05 0:34

Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. I'm Keegan, and as always, Lord Knight.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

There's sometimes during your first degree classes you would leave my house, and I know you were mad at me as I'll get out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 0:51

Even stay on a daily basis, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

We joke about this, but yeah, I mean, there's a couple of times I know you were leaving, like I am never coming back here, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. I'm sorry. Book club was that bad? What happened?

SPEAKER_05 1:10

He didn't have the tupperware I wanted. I'm so mad. No, you can't hide it.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

No, you can't. I'm sorry, when you're looking for temples, when you're looking for covets, and you're looking for a teacher, you'll hear it's a mystery a lot. But if you start hearing it too much and you're six months into your studies and you're still hearing certain things are a mystery, I'd start kind of like raising my eyebrow there, going, huh?

SPEAKER_05 1:48

Everything's a mystery.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Everything's a mystery? What's a mystery is this dog will not stop barking.

SPEAKER_05 1:59

Are you patting his head?

SPEAKER_00 2:01

No, he's just way hyper. Am I gonna sit there and say all traditionalists are good? No. There's warning signs, things you need to look at. If the temple happens or the coven happens to be charging exorbitant amounts just to take classes, and it's not just to compensate for the renting of a room or something like that, I'd be a little weary. If you know you're showing up to class and you got like 10 people in your class, and every time you show up, they send nine people home and say they're just gonna work with this one person. Uh start raising a red flag there.

SPEAKER_05 2:40

Is there any reason that would happen that was um legitimate?

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Not at first degree, no.

SPEAKER_05 2:49

What if somebody needed extra work with meditation?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

That would be probably done outside the normal class. Okay. Or I might even mention in class that I got a few people that have come to me, it might only be one, that are having problems with meditation and needs a little extra work. I'm gonna set this day aside to do that. Anyone else in class that might be having a problem with this, come and speak with me and let me know.

SPEAKER_05 3:22

So are is this uh favoritism that we're is a red flag?

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Or um Hold on.

SPEAKER_05 3:30

He's having a hissy fit because he was barking.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

You didn't even notice he was barking?

SPEAKER_05 3:37

No, I'm so used to mine and you know him barking in the background, I didn't even notice.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Well, Oswald left out the paper towels, and God forbid something changed, so I gotta bark at it because it might be evil. It might mean me some type of in my family some type of harm. No, I mean favoritism, no, never a good thing. Am I gonna sit there and say I haven't had students in a group where they're maybe advancing a little bit faster? Yeah. But I'm not gonna treat that student any different than I do any of the other ones. Right. I don't like the whole favoritism thing. I don't like the teacher's pet.

SPEAKER_04 4:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

But again, you know, I'm only one person and things happen.

SPEAKER_05 4:30

It happens. What are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 4:32

You know.

SPEAKER_05 4:33

What? Um I don't know. Do you want to go into more red flags here?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Oh, we can.

SPEAKER_05 4:38

I mean, I have a question, don't let me forget.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Well, ask your question.

SPEAKER_05 4:43

Oh, I don't think it pertains to the red flags, though.

unknown 4:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Other red flags I would look for is if you're not allowed to question your teachers. Because I love to get questions. You encourage questions. I encourage questions. Yes, you do. Encourage questions as much as I can. It shows me that you know you're more active and that the students more concerned about growing and learning than right. But you know, I I like questions and I like to be challenged on stuff. If you know you don't believe the way I do, challenge me. I I have no problem with that. Now, with that said, am I gonna let you dominate the class to argue over some insignificant point? No. Right. I'll probably give you a few minutes to debate whatever and stop that person. Go, okay, we need to sidebar this, we've got to get this class done because other people want to learn. So while questions are good, yeah, you gotta balance that. You want questions, but you don't want somebody to dominate a topic, and we got 20 other things to go over. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_05 5:57

But you question you encourage question everything. Everything.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Just this tradition, but everything. You know, another like another red flag, I would I would say in a tradition is just because. Right. We do it this way, because why? It's just the way it's always been done. If they don't know a why, if they're just saying because I consider that a big red flag.

SPEAKER_05 6:29

How about the treatment of initiates?

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Again, you need to treat everybody with respect. Most neophytes can pretty much get off the hook on anything.

SPEAKER_05 6:41

Anything.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Almost anything. Almost anything. They are pampered. They're what? Pampered. They are. I mean, they're neophytes, and we treat them with they don't know. They don't always know what to do, when to do it, what not to do, and when they're for rituals and stuff like that, are very supervised the whole entire time. A lot of leniency. The good old days. I mean, you know, they're not treated any better or worse than anybody else.

SPEAKER_05 7:17

They're treated as neophytes.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

They're just treated as neophytes. You know, I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not going to sit there and ask a first degree or a second degree or even myself to go fix their plate. If they're having food, like you would a a kid.

SPEAKER_05 7:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Right. But they're not necessarily going to be allowed to set up altar. But they can watch. But they can watch, and they can even ask questions. Please, ask questions. Ask questions. And ask questions afterward. Are you always going to get an answer? No, but ask the question anyway. It's a learning experience. It is. If you're sitting there and asking questions about circle casting and you haven't done the class yet, you're probably not going to get an answer.

SPEAKER_05 8:08

Right. Uh, you're definitely not going to get an answer.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

You're not going to get an answer.

SPEAKER_05 8:14

No.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

But you can ask the question.

SPEAKER_04 8:17

Ask away.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

You know, and if I'm there and thinking about it, well, you know, you took this class there, hold on, it's and there's many more classes. I mean, because when you come to class, we give you a syllabus of all the classes you're going to be taking. And they're pretty labeled straightforward what those classes are going to be on. Right. So it's not like you don't know. Like you our first class is on protocol. Yep. Now while you might have done the class on protocol and stuff like that, doesn't mean you quite understand it until sometimes you do it.

SPEAKER_05 8:57

Right. And you don't understand the importance of it until you're in a situation you need it.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Right. And and again, if we're looking on average, what, ten years for a third degree, that's ten years. Right. Basically what I tell my most of my students is, you know, the only difference between me and a neophyte is my years of experience. That's the only difference. As you gain that experience and that wisdom, you'll see that transformation in yourself and other people will see it. Oh, that's the hope. Yes, that is the hope. Again, if they're treating you badly, don't stay. Don't get me wrong, there's still some joking around and stuff like that, inside jokes. The kind of jokes you might hear at a family gathering. Jokes that are funny. Jokes that are funny. Sometimes some jokes might be off-colored and off-putting to some people. But you know what a rarity. You know, it it is a rarity. But I mean, if you're being humiliated. Right. I d don't stay. Because I mean, we'll sit there and tell you real quick, you know, you you you vote with your feet. You walked in on your own free will, you'll you can walk out on your own free will.

SPEAKER_05 10:20

Um, you might want to mention I don't know how comfortable you are mentioning, um, but you might want to put sex in here somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Okay. Uh well, and what to me that's you know, favoritism. In our tradition, unless there is a prior relationship, teachers are not allowed to have relationships with students. And even then, if there is a prior relationship, it still discourages a lot. For example, I'm third degree, I can teach and do all this stuff, and I am married to Oswan. Very lovely man. We all love Oswan.

SPEAKER_05 11:08

Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

If Oswan wanted to study for his second degree, I would not teach him. I wouldn't even initiate him.

SPEAKER_05 11:19

Just because you're married to him.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Just because I'm married to him.

SPEAKER_05 11:24

Is that because of favoritism?

SPEAKER_00 11:26

It yeah. That it could be seen as favoritism. So someone looking for Even though there's a pri even though according to our bylaws, there's a previous relationship there, very well established. What are we, twenty-seven years now? Twenty-eight, twenty-seven? I don't know. Yeah. Even though there is a prior relationship there and the rules allow it, I'm not gonna do it. And Lady Aba does the same thing. Sebathy L, who she's married to is a first degree, he's doing his second degree studies under me, not her.

SPEAKER_05 12:10

And that's solely because of the favoritism thing.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Right.

SPEAKER_05 12:14

So that's a big one with you guys then in our tradition. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

In our tradition is a big thing. We shy away from that big time because we take a lot of time and effort to teach people and to work with them. And I don't want anybody to sit there and go, well, Sebathy L got it just because he's married to that's not the case. Right.

SPEAKER_05 12:39

In this tradition, everyone earns.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

If and when he gets his second degree, it's going to be known that he knows what he knows. It's by merit. It's by merit, not because he's married to the high priestess of temple.

SPEAKER_05 12:58

It's what he knows, not who he knows.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Right. So no favoritism there. We don't like it. We I hate it. It ain't happening. Ain't happening. This is something I will stomp up and down and get on my little soapbox about and stomp my foot repeatedly over.

SPEAKER_05 13:18

Well, it's not just you. I don't think there's anybody in the coven who would, you know, would disagree with that.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Well, I hope not. Not being allowed to visit other temples.

SPEAKER_05 13:30

It's another good one.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

It's another good one. I mean, I encourage that all the time. Yes, cheer. Go out, experience. I'm not telling you to go out and join them and whatever. You know, I'd like to keep my people here with me as much as I can. Get out in there in the pagan community. Go talk to other people. Visit other temples. Go to other people's rituals if they'll let you. Uh, you know, don't just experience this. Learn and grow. Please learn and grow. Again, which we've mentioned earlier in this podcast, you're studying for your second degree. And you've picked a specialty in, you know, herbalism. I am not an herbalist by any stretch of the imagination. I know enough to be dangerous. All right, but you were encouraged to find outside sources that knew more about it than I did.

SPEAKER_05 14:32

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

And that there's no problem with that.

SPEAKER_05 14:37

You've always encouraged, well, at least me, you've always encouraged me to get out in the pagan community, see what's up, what's happening, what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:48

Don't make me look bad, but get out there.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Get out there. Don't go around and be all snobbish and stuff like that. Talk to people.

SPEAKER_05 14:58

Right. Represent.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Don't give away our mysteries or you know, start teaching when you're not allowed, but get out there, communicate.

SPEAKER_05 15:08

Yeah, you're you you're a big big advocate for that.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

It helps. It helps the growth of the temple, it helps the community at large, especially when I have to reach out to other temples in different areas. Because, you know, we don't have temples everywhere across the United States or the world and stuff like that. And sometimes I need to know, okay, well, we're in this state, you're way over here, and there's no way we can do classes or for you to come to ritual and stuff like that. And I have nobody out there. But I happen to hear about this temple that does this, they're close to what we do.

SPEAKER_05 15:48

Networking.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

It yeah, the networking there. You know, it helps. Sometimes it helps, you know, the other way around because they might have somebody here that calls there and go, no, hey, guess guess what? Go talk to the people at Life Temple and Seminary. Right. In the area I happen to live in North Carolina, there's quite a few temples and covens and groups around. And while I might not know all of them personally, I know enough about them to be able to say, hey, you know, we might not be a good match for you. This group over here might be. And that, you know, people at those groups will hopefully do the same thing to us. You know, hey, if if that's what you want, you know, go go talk to this guy.

SPEAKER_05 16:33

And what would be those different what would stand out to you to say, okay, we wouldn't be a good match?

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Not all groups are the same. We are a traditionalist coven. Again, there are some expectations and some rules there. Nothing I think that is dramatic, but some people might want something a little bit more freeform. More eclectic. More eclectic than just this way or studying this tradition. And I would send them to that. If you're dynamic, because we're not, we do have both male and females here. So yeah, I might send you to a dynamic group. Because my personal feelings on there, there's nothing wrong with these other traditions. And being a student, it's better for you to be in a place where you're comfortable and you feel like you can spiritually grow the way you need to, than just settling on us.

SPEAKER_05 17:31

What about the foundation? Say I started studying under Alexandrian or Crowley, and I came to you and said, you know, I'd like to study under you. Would you search for a different coven that would fit my needs, or would you anyways?

SPEAKER_00 17:49

It would depend. I mean, if you're insistent that I'd be the one to teach you, I'd teach you. But if you think I'm why I teach you, I'm going to sit there and argue our tradition versus Alexandrian or Gardnarian. I'm not. I'm not going to sit there and debate the two different traditions because to me both of them are just as valid. Our tradition, their tradition.

SPEAKER_05 18:13

And as long as I in in temple functions, if I did what I'm supposed to do, then in my own home I can do it however I well.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

But we would sit back and probably put some restraints on there. Well, we're we're going to cast circle our way, but the body of the ritual or the meaning behind it can be of Alexandrian style.

SPEAKER_05 18:52

That's very lenient, considering to have such a different opinion on traditionalists.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

I don't see it lenient. I mean, again, I'm I'm not sitting here saying that our tradition is the only tradition. It's not. You know, I respect Alexandrians just as much as I do guardinarian, just as much as I do our own tradition. The only thing I'm saying is I just need you to keep some of the format the same.

SPEAKER_05 19:18

Especially if you have neophytes there.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Especially if we have neophytes there, especially if we got first degrees there. As a group, we're going to do these quarter calls and that's it. Right.

SPEAKER_05 19:29

They're confused enough already.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Right. I I don't need everybody sitting back going, uh, what? Huh?

SPEAKER_05 19:37

I'm confused again.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

I'm confused again. But with that said, if you're part of Life Temple and Seminary and you're doing more of an Alexandrian style of your own temple, I'm not going to knock that temple, oh, y'all can't be a part of us.

SPEAKER_05 19:58

So it's the rule the the laws, the foundation that we have to keep, even if we want to branch off.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Right. When I first came into the temple, the lady of temple was Lady Alicia, and Lady Alicia had Dianic background. Right. And she functioned just fine in Temple. Now don't get me wrong, there's some viewpoints there that differ, and I saw her and Lord Men sit down and debate 'em. She even debated some with me, but it was friendly debate. At the end of it, nobody stormed off mad. It never affected the energy or the rituals in temple.

SPEAKER_05 20:40

And you think that comes from the respect that that Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

I mean she was a third degree. She earned and knew what she knew. I followed more of a Celtic path. Lady Abba, who is the high priestess of temple now, is more Stragan. Don't ask me to talk about it, it's not my field of expertise. If you want to learn that, you'd have to go talk to her. But now when me and her are in temple, the energy's great.

SPEAKER_05 21:10

And that's the res again, you think that's because of the respect that you have.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

That is the respect we have for each other. Plus, me and her have worked many years together. But I again, those foundations are there. There's a lot of things we share in common and beliefs. Are they all 100%? No. I don't think anybody of any religion, when it comes down to it, shares 100% beliefs or the same thought as everybody else.

SPEAKER_05 21:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Even me and you disagree on certain things.

SPEAKER_05 21:48

Yes. But that's only because you're evil and mean. I think you shouldn't be, and you think you should be. Yeah, everybody. And it I it seems to be the details is what people will differ on. Your foundations will be the same, but these little details.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

And I think most of us, I'd say this very broadly, I think most traditionalists understand that toward one another. And it's okay. There's nothing wrong with it.

SPEAKER_05 22:23

No. I would go so far as to say it was encouraged and accepted, you know. Oh Lord, yeah. Bring something new in. What kind of new information you got?

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Yeah. You know, why do y'all cast a circle that way? It might not be something we might incorporate in the temple, but hey, it's nice to understand where y'all's logic is behind there.

SPEAKER_05 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

And again, I mean we're talking about what? Which logic, which can be a little weird.

SPEAKER_05 22:54

But we understand it.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

But we understand it.

SPEAKER_05 23:00

We might not agree with it, but we understand it. Yeah, I think we're accepting.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Yeah, I mean, there's certain things we don't tolerate in Temple. Like I said, our circle casting is circle casting. This is the way we do it. Again, we're not saying it's the only way, but this is the way we're going to do it as a group. Right. And I'm sorry, if you just find just circle casting too confining, maybe you shouldn't be part of a traditional group.

SPEAKER_05 23:34

Yeah, you probably shouldn't. I'll not for you.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

But I don't consider circle casting that big of a deal to make or break joining a temple or not or a coven or a group.

SPEAKER_05 23:51

Would be the deal breakers for you. Or do you think should be the deal breakers?

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Not knowing why. If any of my students come to me and say, Hey, I believe this, blah, blah, blah, and I go, well, why? And they say, because I read it out of this book, it's not going to go well. No. I don't believe just because this person said it, or just because I say it, or just because Lady Alba said it, or it was out of this book, and this person's written fifteen billion books or whatever. I don't care. Right. I want to know why you think it should be that way. Why you believe in that.

SPEAKER_05 24:38

Right. You know, and if you're not why you're doing what you're doing. Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Not just because somebody told you to.

SPEAKER_05 24:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

You know, that's normally when I give that story about the whole entire the roast with the ends cut off.

SPEAKER_05 24:53

I heard that story so many. You use it. It's a multi-use it's a multi-use story, really. It really is. It really is. It's just it works.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

It's a good story. It's a good story. Yeah, there's no reason to not know why.

SPEAKER_05 25:13

Why do we cast circle this way? Why do we use certain colors? Right. Why do we do these things? There's reasons behind them.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Right. I and I'm sorry, that's a big deal breaker with me. You can't just go big house.

SPEAKER_05 25:29

It's the way.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

I I don't like that. And no, I do not even stand that from my students. As you well know yourself.

SPEAKER_05 25:39

No, no, you don't.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

No.

SPEAKER_05 25:41

You better have an answer.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

You better have an answer. And I don't care what in the world it is. But it better not come from a book. It makes it sound like I discourage people reading books. I don't. Reading books and books on craft and all these different traditions, I don't have a problem with. Please read them. But if you're going to come to me going, you know, I believe X just because this author wrote it. Without a Y. Without a Y behind it, I got a problem with. Now if the author's giving you a Y behind it too, and you believe the same thing they do, yes, it is very valid to argue that point.

SPEAKER_05 26:25

And just because isn't the answer.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

And just because is not an answer. For example, I'm going to use these particular stones to represent the quarters, and I'm going to ask you why. And if you just sit there and go, Well, I read it out of this book, and this is what they said to do. Well, why? I have no idea. It's just that's what they said they do. Then why are you doing it? Then why are you doing it? Well, I like the author, I like their tradition, blah, blah, blah. But you don't know their tradition. All you know is that they do it. This is where I see a lot of problems with pagan books on tradition. Is again those mystery traditions. You're not allowed to write them down. So they can't. So if I was to write a book on our tradition, I'm going to be leaving a lot out. It's going to be the whys, and it's going to be those things of why we do it that way. It's just going to be, hey, we do this. And you're never going to know why. So when you read these books, you got two options. Either A, they are initiated and they can't tell you. So there's this big void in the book. Or they never were initiated and they don't know the mysteries and they just know what's done. And they don't know the whys. I mean, I don't know about you, but hence the reason I did hunt down a traditionalist. Well, I did finally hunt down Lord Men to teach me is because I kept on reading these books and I kept on seeing these gaps. Why is that that way? Why do you keep on saying this over and over again? You're not telling me why.

SPEAKER_05 28:04

I was going to ask you what made you take the path of a traditionalist. Well, I guess I just answered that. You sure did. You sure did. Oh no, I've already designed everything. I was going to ask you that.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

But I mean, that's why I did it, because once I started taking the classes, and you know, Lord Men sat down with me, going, okay, here's this, and this is why this is. I'm like, oh, that makes so much better sense. Right. Some of them, I'll be honest with you, a few I did figure out on my own, but hearing him explaining, I'm like, oh, I was right about that. No, it was never actually in the book, but it was just the way it was starting, I was starting to think. Right. Just reading the book means you can't discover the mysteries. No, it just might take longer. Much, much, much longer. Than actually having a somebody sitting down teaching you one. Yeah, yeah, that's all this is. I mean, because you don't know. I sit back and I've joked for many years that that when I pass that some people get a hold of my writings and wind up with the holy sacred chicken salad recipe. And and be passing it around like, you know, ooh, this is holy text and blah, blah, blah. It was my chicken recipe. You know, I really didn't mean to slip that paper into, you know, the rest of them. It's just where I was when I wrote it down. And you know, I I I do dumb stuff sometimes.

SPEAKER_05 29:43

Now we have the sacred chicken salad.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Salad recipe. Or, you know, might be sitting there trying to brainstorm stuff and putting random, you know, for rituals and sitting there and putting random ideas on a paper. And, you know, I'd hate to think 50, 100 years from now, somebody finds this and read it. Oh, look, this is the sacred text from night. I wonder what it means. We've been trying to decipher it for years. And and and nobody can explain why in the world we take the two candles and then suddenly go outside and dance Wittershin's.

SPEAKER_05 30:34

But we do it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

But we but we do it anyway.

SPEAKER_05 30:39

We don't know why.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

We don't know why. And and and he speaks of the sacred blue candle, which we have here. And we pull it out and light it for five seconds so other generations can appreciate it later on in life. We don't know why it's sacred. I mean, it scares me. Control yourself. When I was talking to Lady ABBA about this, and Lady ABBA, I I swear, for the longest time she thought I was nuts about this. And she was like out on um Craigslist or something. And I can't remember who it was, but it was Lady Such and Such Sacred Spatchelor. And it was as absorbing an amount for this woman spatular. And she was sitting back going, what? First of all, if it's a real ritual tool, why are y'all selling it off? And please explain to me what made this batcher sacred.

SPEAKER_05 32:10

Because she used it for the sacred flipping of the burgers.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

I don't know. You know, I do think there's a tendency in this religion to make items sacred or so or something because they were owned by Lady Such and Such or Lord Such and Such. And you know, I'd hate to think I'd recarnate in a hundred years and they're carrying around my ink pen. Ooh, this is the sacred ink pen. What are y'all talking about?

SPEAKER_05 32:57

We like to make things sacred.

SPEAKER_04 33:01

It's what we do.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

You know, I I mean there there there is this thing that seems to happen. You know, it's like it's the same thing that scares me about, you know, oh yeah, I have the lipstick imprint of this megastar, this rock star, or this or this singer, or or this actress, or whatever. And I'm going to frame it and cherish it forever. And I I'm sorry, I'm sitting back thinking, okay, if there's anything I do like that, where somebody's going to be, you know, cherishing something, the sacred Kleenex I blew my nose on. What were y'all thinking? I mean, so I guess if I entered into a coven that did that, I would be kind of like, uh I'm not sure about that. I mean, don't get me wrong, if you sit there and go, Oh, here is Lady Such and Such Book of Shadows, okay, this I can understand. But then on the other hand, if I get to read it and look through it, I'm gonna take it with a grain of salt, too. Because it was hers. Because it was hers. I mean, if anybody was to read my book of shadows, they'd be like, What uh huh?

SPEAKER_04 34:35

What the hell's he talking about?

SPEAKER_00 34:37

What is he talking about? And my only hope is I've taught enough people to go, no, no, no, no, no. Just just put the book down. And forget you even saw that.

SPEAKER_04 34:53

Just put it back. Put it back.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Just put it back. That was his random thoughts and his feelings at the time of doing stuff.

SPEAKER_05 35:01

Don't open it again. We keep that book closed.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

You know, or if somebody reads through it and they are reading through it and they start asking questions, you know, the people under me to go, uh, yeah, that's yeah, that that was Knight's book book of shadows. Um take it with a grain of salt. Okay, make it a whole bushel of salt, something. Here's a cup. I'm setting it right beside you to remind you. If you think you're gonna find some sacred text there that you know the rest of us don't already know about, I doubt it.

SPEAKER_05 35:40

But good luck to you.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

But good luck to you. So, yeah, I I I would say, yeah, that would be a red flag if somebody's making something holier than what it really should be.

SPEAKER_05 35:58

But we need the sacred.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Don't get me wrong. Am I gonna sit there and say, okay, Lady ABBA doesn't have a batcher that she consecrated and blessed? No. Am I gonna put it up on eBay on an auction block and try to sell it off? No. Unless she specifically says, hey, I want somebody to have this when I pass. That's it.

SPEAKER_04 36:26

The sacred spatula. Sacred tissue.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Sacred tissue. You know? Wait again. I know, but I'd hate to think somebody gets a hold of my robes. Oh, these are his robes. We're we light candles in front of it to honor him when we've had it placed in this glass protective, airtight say, What the hell is my freaking robe?

SPEAKER_05 36:53

Don't open that bag too often. It still smells like him. We have to keep the smell in.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Why didn't y'all burn it when y'all did my death rites or whatever?

SPEAKER_05 37:06

Say, wouldn't you be wearing I'm confused. Again.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Again.

SPEAKER_05 37:18

Did we touch everything with the traditionalist?

SPEAKER_00 37:21

I think we did. I tell you what, once this is up, if more people have questions that we didn't cover, we can do a a follow-up.

SPEAKER_05 37:33

QA type thing. Right. Um, your number one priority as a traditionalist would be to preserve craft.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Yes. I mean everything I do is to preserve craft. It's really a toss-up because there's actually two there. Yes, it is to preserve craft and to promote spiritual growth. With others. Well, no, with myself. My own spiritual growth. With your own spiritual growth, you're going to preserve craft.

SPEAKER_05 38:12

Okay. Let's write that down.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

All right.

SPEAKER_05 38:16

Um, and why is preserving the craft important to you?

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Because so much was already lost. You know, through the ages and stuff like that, so much was lost. And we're only just now starting to get some of it back. I'll be the first to admit that all of us could be way off base, you know, about what certain things were done. Right. But there's something about it of what people are doing that work. You know, I'm not going to sit here and say, you know, we're the best, blah, blah, blah. Again, it is a way, it is a set of teaching that we teach. I'm not going to sit here and say it's the only way. But what I've seen of our teachings and how it's transformed other people, there's gotta be something there, something we're doing right. Yeah. And and to not preserve that, I I think this is a great detriment to all society. Is there a way for everybody? No. Are we ever going to be a temple of the masses? Probably not. But for those who do follow and do believe the way we do, it profoundly affects them for the rest of their life.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

We give you a way to learn, to grow, to become more than what you were, to grow spiritually and confident in yourself and in your own beliefs.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Who wouldn't want to preserve something like that?

SPEAKER_04 39:50

It's a good answer. Well, I'm out of coffee. Oh, I've been out of coffee.

SPEAKER_06 39:59

Thank you for listening to Peggy and Coffee Talk. I hope you join us next week.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

We travel down the strodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing fire. And so it is the end of our days, so off with me till born and break. And so it is the end of our days, so often still more.