Can you have spirituality without religion? Part 1 of 2

Pagan Coffee Talk – Spiritual Path vs. Religion: Structure, Freedom, and Balance

In this episode of Pagan Coffee Talk, Lord Night and the crew take on a fundamental question that many people on the path eventually face: what’s the difference between a spiritual path and a religion—and can you truly have one without the other?

This isn’t a surface-level discussion. We break it down from a traditionalist perspective, starting with clear definitions and moving into how these concepts actually function in real practice.

A spiritual path offers freedom—room to explore, connect, and experience the divine without rigid boundaries. But as we discuss, that same freedom can quickly become confusion without structure. On the other hand, religion provides a framework—beliefs, community, and guidance—but can become too rigid if it loses its connection to real spiritual experience.

So where’s the balance?

That’s where tradition comes in.

We dive deep into how a working temple balances both sides:

•  The spiritual connection that drives ritual and personal growth 
•  The mundane structure required to keep a functioning religious body alive 

From ritual timing and planning to degrees and responsibilities within a temple, this episode pulls back the curtain on what actually goes into maintaining that balance.

We also explore:

•  Whether you need specific deities or can connect to something broader 
•  What defines a religion from both a practical and legal standpoint
•  The role of community, even for solitaries 
•  How traditional training develops both spiritual awareness and real-world responsibility
•  Why spirituality without structure can become unfocused—and why structure without spirituality leads to stagnation 

At its core, this conversation is about understanding that spirituality and religion are not enemies—they are tools. When properly balanced, they create a path that is both meaningful and sustainable.

Because at the end of the day, this isn’t just something you practice—it’s something you live.

Topics covered:

•  Spiritual path vs. religion: key differences 
•  Freedom vs. structure in spiritual practice 
•  The role of ritual, community, and belief systems 
•  Legal vs. lived definitions of religion 
•  Temple structure, degrees, and responsibilities 
•  Balancing the spiritual and the mundane 
•  Why tradition matters in long-term growth 

If you’ve ever questioned where you fit between spirituality and religion, this episode will give you a grounded, experience-based perspective.

Join us on
Discord:  https://discord.gg/MdcMwqUjPZ
Facebook: (7) Life Temple and Seminary | Facebook

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Welcome to Pegan Coffee Talk, a traditional weekend podcast where we will discuss topics affecting the Pegan school from a traditionalist perspective. The topics we discussed are picked from our magical hand, and the discussions are as perfect. The talk will be led by Lord 8. Elbert I third. And we've joined by Keegan, first degree priesthood. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by the board.

SPEAKER_06 0:40

I'm Keegan, and as always, Lord Knight.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

So what's our topic for today?

SPEAKER_06 0:48

I'm in the bag.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

You're in the bag?

SPEAKER_06 0:51

In the bag.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Okay, please.

SPEAKER_06 0:56

What's the point of a spiritual path without religion?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

So we're talking about the difference between a spiritual path and a religion.

SPEAKER_06 1:06

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

All right.

SPEAKER_06 1:08

Can you have one without the other?

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Actually, I think you can. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

First of all, we have to define what a spiritual path is and what a religion is. Okay. Can we get some definitions, please? Yes. I'm waiting for somebody to go, why is he always asking for definitions?

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Yes. And we'd like other people to know what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_06 1:42

Well, there's two definitions for religion.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:50

The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, a particular system of faith and worship, or a pursuit of interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance. Spirituality is a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Right. A universal human experience. Well, that helps. Well, actually it does.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Because one is a system of beliefs. The other one talks about the connection to that being greater than ourselves.

SPEAKER_05 2:42

That's good.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

You see?

SPEAKER_06 2:46

Can you find one without the other?

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Possible but very unlikely. Let me explain.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

With a spiritual path, you could traverse many different experiences without being impeded by certain dogmatic rules and laws.

SPEAKER_06 3:09

Example.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Some faiths limit your contact with the divine. Some religions say that the average person cannot speak to the divine, only holy people should, and you have to go to them and let those things speak through them. Even then there are some religions that restrict what spiritual beings that you could talk to. Did that make sense? So if you were wanting to talk to nature spirits, there are certain religions that say you cannot do that. So yeah, without that, you you have a little bit more freedom. Now the downside to this, because there's always a downside. And you know how I love flipping that coin. Yes, you do. Sometimes without the structure, your spirituality, I think, can become a little muddled. You could wind up becoming too busy bouncing around to actually get what you need from this spiritual connection.

SPEAKER_06 4:18

What are you what are we connecting to?

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Regardless, if you're connecting to deity, nature spirits, or whatever, sometimes without the construction or without the guidance of religion, you get a little muddled. You get into the weeds. Right. You have nobody there to pull you back. Uh no, you might not be quite ready for that. Or I think you might need to work on this. Because, you know, when you're doing that spiritual connection, it is an emotional, spiritual, mental thing that's going on. You can easily be lost in those weeds on that.

SPEAKER_06 5:03

If you're on a spiritual path, not a religious one, do you have to have specific deities? Can it just be wanting to connect to the all?

SPEAKER_01 5:14

It could. It could be multiple deities, it could be multiple things.

SPEAKER_06 5:22

Well, are Wiccans traditionally spiritual or religious?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

I believe with the way I teach, which again is the only thing I can balance for in our tradition, we try to balance the two. We want some guidance there, but we want that freedom for exploratory there too. Not holding people back, but sometimes guiding or suggesting that they work on certain things before proceeding on to something else.

SPEAKER_06 5:56

What makes Wiccan a religion?

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Well, we would actually have to look at I could pull out a book. Which book? My book.

SPEAKER_06 6:08

I knew you'd have to get that baby out sooner or later.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

According to the federal government, the most basic characteristics of a religion is the sense of the sacred or holy. Something beyond yourself, the awe. Okay. Which in essence has been argued with certain religions that it could be science that could have your awe, or the fact that you don't believe anything is that awe. That awe then becomes humanity itself. Okay. Even atheists themselves could be considered a religion because their awe or sacredness is humanity itself.

SPEAKER_06 6:54

Oh, good point. I never thought about that.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Right. It's been a long argument, are they really a religion? Because they believe in humanity. That is their sacred. Okay, that's number one. Number two, according to the federal government, you have to show faith. That you believe in this, that it's a deity.

SPEAKER_06 7:19

Okay. You have to believe in something.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

You have to believe in something. Again, if we're taking like atheists, they believe in humanity. They believe in the good of humanity and the bad of humanity. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_06 7:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

And for those who believe in other things, again, science could be that faith that all the answers will be solved there. The third thing you need is beliefs. Which is these are your doctrines and creeds.

SPEAKER_06 7:51

Um so you have those beliefs that you have faith in.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Right. Which, you know, for us it's the things that we teach. Our doctrines, our creeds, things like the wicked and read.

unknown 8:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

While we do consider it a golden rule and all that, other faiths have that. It is something you strive to do, but doubt you'll ever actually perfectly reach. Some may they are very limited and few and far between. So, like our first degree lecture series basically covers most of that official documentation of the belief, our structure of our beliefs, what we do, what we don't do, uh, what we believe in, how we interact with each other.

SPEAKER_06 8:42

Um, ours is more of a foundation of beliefs. It's not very detailed, is it? Because we have the freedom to believe in your certain set of gods, and this person over here can believe in their set. So, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Absolutely true. But on the other hand, we also sit there and say, here's the structure we're going to use when we come together as a group versus individuals.

SPEAKER_06 9:08

But we don't get bogged down with details, like we can say God and goddess as opposed to specific deities.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Right. Even though there are some times when we in rituals and stuff like that do summon certain deities, it's really not that big of a deal.

SPEAKER_05 9:27

No. It's not that big of a deal.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

I mean, it's really not. If we're doing a group ritual and we structure something where we're going to be using Venus and Pan, there's a specific reason for that. Versus just a more broader.

SPEAKER_06 9:47

Vague.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Vague.

SPEAKER_06 9:49

Any of them will do. Well you got available.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Yes, the majority of the times we're more vague than we are specific, but there are occasions that that does happen. And it's not that big of a deal. Most people in temple don't record back going, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I can't be a part of a ritual that's that did no.

SPEAKER_06 10:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

I I've never seen that happen.

SPEAKER_06 10:19

I refuse to work with pen. I won't do it.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

I won't do it. Okay. Let's get to number four. The fourth requirement is liturgy. Okay. Which is basically covers our moral behaviors. Which anybody who's ever studied under me knows. Go on, sad.

SPEAKER_06 10:41

I have a particular You got a heart on for it.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yes, I do. I love getting down and dirty with morals and ethics.

SPEAKER_06 10:57

Yes, you do.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Oh, wait till I look, look, on Audible, I've already found a list of ethic books to listen to.

SPEAKER_06 11:04

All good. And I'm sure you'll share them. Great.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

I'm sure. It's hard when you're the moral compass of your group.

SPEAKER_06 11:19

What's that say about us if you're the moral compass?

SPEAKER_01 11:26

All right. Fifth, the fifth requirement, according to the federal government, that is required, uh, no means is the least of these, is a community. You cannot be a religion of one, according to the United States federal government.

SPEAKER_06 11:47

Well, that brings up a big question. All right. What about the solitaires?

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Well, technically, they have a community. Oh, they do, don't they? They do. We're a part of their community. Traditionalists are part of their community. They are part of our community. We can no more separate them, them than they can separate from us completely. They just practice solitaire. They just practice solitaire. Again, we have a number of people in Temple who live too far away who can't. And technically they are practicing solitaire, but they're still part of the main group. Good point. Good point. So, because not everybody can show up for rituals.

SPEAKER_06 12:38

Well, even the people who, you know, choose to be solitaire, they've never been in a coven at all, ever. They're still part of the community.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

They're still part of the community. But could they could they go to the federal government and declare themselves a religion to get the tax exempt status? It would be harder. See, we're what we're doing is we're talking about the difference between the legal view of religion in the country we live in versus actual religion or spirituality.

SPEAKER_06 13:18

But we're still that community. I mean, you don't have one person sitting at home going, Well, I'm gonna make my own religion, a religion of just myself, you know.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Right. And going out and getting the 501c3 tax exempt status. That's what's required to get that tax exempt status to be considered a religion, a church, a synagogue, a temple, a coven.

SPEAKER_06 13:44

Mm-hmm. And you need more than spirituality to get that.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Right. And which we try our best in our religion to balance out the mundane and the spiritual. And one of the ways we do this is our priests are typically trained to handle the mundane part of temple, and our priestesses are taught to handle the spiritual. Now, at no time does that not mean that these two parties cannot switch places or question the other.

SPEAKER_06 14:22

Are you asking me?

SPEAKER_01 14:23

No, I'm telling you. Oh. I mean, that's how we keep that balance because without that spirituality, without that charisma, I see the religion dying. Without that connection to the holy and all this, it it dies out because the mundane takes its place. You're bogged down with rules and regulations and stuff like that. And you wind up having your group to the effect of you have committed committees about committees to see if you need to have a committee about the committee. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_06 15:06

That's a fun time all the way around.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Right. While these things are needed, while these mundane things are needed to be done in religions and these institutions, sometimes we get too focused in on that. And we need that spiritual side. This is where we rely on our priestesses to go, oh, wait, wait, wait, stop, hold the train. It's about the ritual. It's nice that you're doing this, but can we pull back a little bit? Even though it in our tradition, again, I can only speak about our tradition, we teach both the priestesses and the priests to do both jobs so they can interact and understand each other better and work better together, and sometimes have to take up the slack if something happens on the other side of that.

SPEAKER_06 16:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

And so there's a little bit more questioning there and more conversations because both sides understand what their jobs are and can do both. The way I've always put it is I took drama as you've recently have found out.

SPEAKER_05 16:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

And in taking drama, they talked about the fact that at one point in history, women were not allowed to be actors. That's right. So boys would have to play the girls' parts. But here's how the logic went. If you played the in like Romeo and Juliet, you played the handmaiden of Juliet, that gave you a different perspective when you were able to do the part of Juliet. And then by playing Juliet, by doing that, you learnt how to be a better uh Romeo.

SPEAKER_06 17:04

Well, that's pretty good. I never thought about it like that.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

We try our best to do the same things by teaching both halves how to do it, and then looking at the car, our priest going, Okay, you're really going to handle the mundane the majority of the time. But this will make you better at that because you're gonna understand the spiritual side of it too. Because what's really interesting about our religion, about craft, is that our main focus is the ritual itself, to have that spiritual connection.

SPEAKER_05 17:41

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Not everything else. It's the ritual that brings us together.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

And that's our driving force. That's an individual force. We all seem to want that connection.

SPEAKER_06 17:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

And we need it, we thrive on it. Yes. Hence the reason you hear us a lot of times refer to our life is our religion. Yes. And we do not allow our life to interfere, or we try our best not to allow our lives to interfere with our religion because that completely taken away as not good. Oh, it's spiritual death. It's spiritual death.

SPEAKER_06 18:23

No, it is absolutely part, it's our life. It's what it is. We don't have a life with spirituality in it. Spirituality is our life.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

We try our best to do this. You know, do we always succeed? No. We just like any other religion want to reach out to all those around us and other members of our community and stuff like that. But we got to be careful not to get bogged down with these things. Right. Because we don't want to kill off that charisma or that, you know, spirituality in the religion. But we can't completely ignore the mundane things that have to happen in temple. For example, just for everybody to come together for a ritual, the ritual has to be written. If there's multiple parts that other people have to do, they have to know what parts they have to do. Those have to be either assigned or given out accordingly. Then there's the actual physical work of setting up the ritual. If there isn't a permanent spot, if there is, there's less of that, but still getting out of certain tools and ritual, you know, ritual items and stuff like that, and you know, making sure that they're ready to be placed on the altar. Then if you're talking about a grand, you know, there might be a feast afterwards, that still has to be planned.

SPEAKER_06 19:53

Well, is that considered mundane or ritual?

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Or spiritual? Those would actually be considered mundane. But you know, in a lot of times, I have seen our high priestess take charge of certain aspects of this, so I don't have to do it all. Again, we're back to that working together, me and her splitting up duties and responsibilities.

SPEAKER_06 20:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

So if we're having a an actual feast, and when please let me make sure I define this when I'm talking about us having a feast, it is a five-course or whatever meal. Right. You know, so it is more of a closer to a cater event. Sometimes it's potluck, sometimes it's not, but we definitely sure don't want finger sandwiches. Well, or um, you know, a bunch of people just show up with a bunch of hams. Well we ain't got no vegetables, but hey, we got a lot of hams. Or hey, we got a lot of vegetables and ain't got no meat. You know, these things still have to be plotted out and somewhat. So you again you're getting the mundane in there. And then you still have to tell everybody to show up at a certain time. Ritual is always performed at seven, eight o'clock, whatever, at a specific time, so everybody knows to be there. When we sit there and we say ritual starts at eight or whatever, for example, ritual starts at eight. We mean it starts at eight. Right. Not five minutes after, not two hours later, it starts at eight. And again, that's that mundane coming back. We have to think of things like we have people that have kids, people that have jobs, and other things that they have to do, besides sitting around for two hours to let the spirituality kick in to go, okay, it's time to do ritual. Because spirituality doesn't have a time schedule. It can happen anytime. It can happen when you're driving down the street. It could happen when you're in the shower. Just like all other good thoughts happen in the shower. Or in the bathroom.

SPEAKER_06 22:15

There's some truth to that.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

There is some truth to that. Spirituality hits you at random times. I've had people call me up and have all these words on the world and call me up because they've seen a rainbow. This to me is a spiritual connection. This is significant to this person.

SPEAKER_06 22:34

Oh, sure. I've had a person send me a text of a cloud that looks like Thor.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

It was cool. It looked like Thor to me. And there was a thunderstorm going on.

SPEAKER_06 22:48

No, it was tough. It was tough.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

It was tough. See, now that you said that, you're going to have to give them the picture to put up.

SPEAKER_06 22:57

Right, of course.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

That's the thumbnail of this.

SPEAKER_06 23:01

I've got it.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

To see if anybody goes, yeah, that does sort of look like Thor. I mean, again, it happens at random times. I happened to be at work that day doing this. And went outside for my break. And I saw this and I was like, oh, it's cool. It was a spiritual moment for me. And yes, I wanted to share it. So I took a picture and text it out and said, Hey, look. Looks like so. Or and there's a thunderstorm. Since spirituality can be so random, if you're completely on the spiritual side and you are trying to wrangle a group of people together, I mean, let's just talk about let's maybe even five people together to do a ritual. Everybody's got to show up at the same time and do this. So we got to introduce some mundane.

SPEAKER_06 23:58

And that's your job?

SPEAKER_01 23:59

And and that's my job. But you know, I'm not completely ignoring that. Once we get in the ritual, it is the priestess's job to bring that spirituality to them through the ritual itself.

SPEAKER_06 24:15

You're the priests, and you're supposed to work with the mundane, but you're never cold hearted toward the spiritual.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

But no, I think it's because we were taught that balance. We were taught both sides of them coins. And we do split those jobs up. When I have to concentrate on just the mundane, that's where I'm at. I don't have to in the back of my mind, I no longer worry about the spiritual because my priestess is going to take care of that. So I can concentrate on this job, get it done and over with, so I can rejoin y'all on the spiritual.

SPEAKER_06 24:51

Right. Oh, good. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

And vice versa. If there's a lot going on or a big gathering we're pulling multiple temples together or whatever, that priestess might go, Okay, I'm going to come over to your side and help you out because I'm so worried about everything, you know, you're not having time to do everything. Right. And then I can go back to my spot, you can finish up your spot, then you can join me later. So it's not one person doing everything. No, it's not one person doing everything. Um and again, it sounds complicated and stuff when you're looking at it from the view in which I have to look at it, which is the whole picture. But you got second degrees and first degrees. They're helping you out. You got a lot of first degrees doing a lot of manual labor and stuff like that, moving them around. But it's not like I'm not ever there with them doing these things. Right.

SPEAKER_06 25:48

Or have it.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Or have dues. I I I've paid my dues. Right. Just like anybody else. Because the way we look at it, when you get your first degree, you have certain jobs and responsibility in temple that you have to do. None of them are wildly encompassing your life. It's not like you're chained to temple or anything like that. But when you become second degree, you get more responsibility. But you still have the responsibilities that you did at a first degree. Right. Plus what's added on at second degree. Then when you become third degree, you have the responsibilities not only of a third degree, but of a second degree in a first degree. But you can pass some of those responsibilities down. We pass some of them on, but again, I've never seen, especially in our group where thirds just bark out orders.

SPEAKER_06 26:46

No, even if we said this is what we want you to do, sit in this spot and don't move. Let us handle it. You'd be the first one up and going, here, let me, let me, let me.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Right. You know, I've I've I've had some first degrees threaten to tie me to a chair so I wouldn't do stuff.

SPEAKER_06 27:01

Yeah. You're not exactly passive.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

No. No. And I mean, uh d don't get me wrong, I've seen the lady do the same thing. I remember an incident where we were doing a yard sale and I I had the flu. And literally they were threatened to tie me down inside because I wanted to be out and helping and doing. And they were like, no, well, if you're going to come out to the porch, they actually dragged out an electric heater, stuck it in front of me, and wrapped me up in blankets. I was surprised they did not pull out duct tape.

SPEAKER_06 27:39

Don't lose this spot.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Don't move and here I am a third degree and I'm sick and I'm still wanting to. Mm-hmm. It's a weird feeling, but I think it helps with the cohesion of our temples. That our first degrees and our second degrees and our third degree don't mind all pitching together to get something done. There's never this air of I'm this degree, so therefore I don't have to do this.

SPEAKER_06 28:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

It is it's my temple. I want to bring this to life. I want it to be more than what it is.

SPEAKER_06 28:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

I could be wrong. You could argue me underneath the table on this. Your thought on that could be completely different. What thought? Oh, what I was just saying about how we interact with each other.

SPEAKER_06 28:31

No. I can't speak for others, but ours. I don't know anybody who would say no, I'm a second, uh, so no, I'm not going to do that task if no one else was to do it. I believe they would do it and they would do it gladly.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

You know, when we talk about jobs for first degrees, just to give some examples so people understand what in the world we're talking about, that might be kind of helping set up, do a little bit of cooking, if they can cook, help trying to set up for the feast or the ritual. Some first degrees might even be giving to watch after people. If we have visitors, uh elders from other temples, or even people that show up that might not be physically able to do for themselves, we might ask a first degree to keep an eye on those people. Right. To make sure that their needs are taken care of, that they don't feel outputted.

SPEAKER_06 29:29

Yeah, those aren't menial tasks.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

You know, we want to make sure that they're looked after. Our second degrees will automatically do this. They'll if they see them sitting there or something, and that first degree's done ran off somewhere else to go do something, or sitting down to eat, oh no, sit down here, I'll get it. I gotta get up anyway. Right, absolutely. Second degree jobs can be a little bit more involved, but you are getting more into the operations of temple itself and taking care of certain things. Even to practicing and writing rituals, which again we even encourage at first degree.

SPEAKER_06 30:07

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Highly encouraged.

SPEAKER_06 30:10

Highly. Strongly suggested.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

These people are allowed to submit regardless, first degrees and second degrees, both can submit rituals.

SPEAKER_06 30:22

But neophytes can't.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

No, neophytes are the only ones that can. Neophytes have very few responsibilities besides to learn. That is their only responsibility.

SPEAKER_06 30:35

But you always have your neophytes. Uh can I help? What can I do?

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Right. And they're a little bit more watched after and given certain jobs. Even at a third degree level, I I've seen my mentor, Lord Minn, get up and stand there and wash dishes. And second degrees go through the kitchen and see him standing there, you know, washing dishes. Oh here, sir, let me help you with that. Oh, here, you go sit down, you don't need to be doing that, and then encouraging him to go sit down. And first degrees walking across and saying that, going, Hey, let me wash. He might even just sit there and go, Oh, here, why don't you just rinse or dry? Right. And sometimes for the first and second degrees, these are great opportunities to sit there and just chat with the man while he was still alive, uh, to get to know these people that you might not get to know otherwise.

SPEAKER_06 31:32

You might learn something.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

One of my favorite little sayings is speak thee little, listen much. Yep. You'd be surprised at what you hear. And that's something I have noticed. I see it more in traditional temples with traditionalists versus eclectic. Eclectic or solitaries. There always seems to be this drive to talk about the religion itself, to bounce ideas off of each other. And that's really encouraged in our temple.

SPEAKER_06 32:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

I enjoy having those conversations. We always try to do civil debates. Some people might get a little passionate and stuff like that, and that's when it is the job of a third degree to sit back and going, Hey, why don't y'all drop this subject for a little while and back off? You're getting a little too heated. Breathe for a minute. We don't necessarily believe that any idea is bad, but by discussing it, it does help for people to grow. Right. I will be the first one to admit, now I've been teaching quite a number of years, and literally, I think sometimes I learn more off my students than my students learn off of me. Because of the questions. Sometimes because of the questions, sometimes because of a simple comment. That makes me start to think down a path that I wouldn't have thought of before. New ways of looking at things. Yes. Me and my obsession with flipping the coin. Because the majority hold on. Hey, we were sneaky. Oswin took our dog to the park.

SPEAKER_06 33:28

I don't know what she's barking at unless it's a deer. Might be.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Well, I don't know about you, but I'm out of coffee.

SPEAKER_06 33:37

I'm out of coffee as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

All right. Well, we'll see y'all next time.

SPEAKER_06 33:43

Join us next week as we continue the conversation.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

Thank you for listening to Peggy and Coffee Talk. I hope you join us next week.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

We travel down the straw and my stole my hand as we pass five steel plates.