Can you have spirituality without religion? Part 2 of 2

Pagan Coffee Talk – Prayer, Spiritual Growth, and Tradition in Pagan Practice

In this continuing episode of Pagan Coffee Talk, we explore the deeper relationship between prayer, personal spirituality, and structured religious practice within traditional Pagan paths.

Is prayer a direct connection to deity, or does it require an intermediary? How do different religious systems approach communication with the divine—and where does that leave the individual practitioner?

This conversation dives into:

•  The role of prayer as a personal vs. structured practice
•  Why spirituality is ultimately a personal (and even “self-focused”) experience
•  How ritual creates meaning beyond intention
•  The difference between religion, spirituality, and personal craft
•  Why spiritual growth cannot be forced or rushed
•  The importance of balance between spiritual work and physical life
•  How teachers, training, and tradition guide development 
•  The value of community, shared knowledge, and lived experience
•  Understanding mystery traditions and structured learning processes

We also examine the idea that true understanding in Pagan practice comes not from being told answers—but from experience, repetition, and personal revelation over time.

Whether you practice within a traditional temple setting, structured system, or as a solitary, this episode offers insight into building a meaningful path rooted in discipline, growth, and authentic connection.

☕ Grab your coffee and join the conversation.

Join us on
Discord:  https://discord.gg/MdcMwqUjPZ
Facebook: (7) Life Temple and Seminary | Facebook

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Pegan Coffee Talk, a traditional wicked podcast where we will discuss topics affecting the pagan school from a traditionalist perspective. The topics we discussed are picked from our magical hand, and the discussions are ascripted. The talk will be led by Lord Paced by Smith, Elbert High Street of Third Greek. And he's joined by Igan, first degree priesthood. Take a coffee talk is brought to you by the board.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

We are continuing our conversation from last week. I did have a question. I don't know if you're going to be able to answer it or not.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Um I can only try.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

When you first are talking, you said that some religions you there's a middleman you have to go through before you can talk to the higher supreme, the higher deity?

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

Where does that put prayer?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

In what sense?

SPEAKER_04 1:03

Well, I think religious people or spiritual people, we pray a lot. You know, we talk to deity a lot. But if you had that middleman saying, Well, you know, in order to speak to the supreme, you have to go through me, does that mean they can't pray either?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

I think they can pray, but I do know I realize that in certain situations, from a counseling point of view, just sitting there and telling somebody something out loud that you might not have ever told anybody that you harbor some ill emotions about can often relieve that. And it might not necessarily be a bad thing, but prayer is more of a direct connection to deity if you're in the right head space to do it. I mean, me myself, I pray every morning. Right. I pray to certain deities that I believe in and I ask them to guide me through this day.

SPEAKER_04 2:05

I think most of us do.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Yes. Now that to me is just for me. I think religion and spirituality is a very selfish thing because you're not doing it for anybody else but yourself. Right. And it should be selfish. You should enjoy it, you should hold on to it with a fervor and vigor than you do anything else in your life. Absolutely. But all religions should be selfish. You should be there for yourself, not to show off your new hat or or or to show how well dressed the members of your family are and stuff like that. That should be irrelevant. You're working on that personal connection. You're working on that personal connection. You're working on your own spiritual growth, which I think in general makes you a better person. Will make you a better brother, a better sister, a better parent, a better father and son and daughter, a better friend. That's the idea behind it. That's the idea behind it. That it just makes you a better person altogether. But if you don't take it personally, if you don't take it with that selfish zeal and love it completely, then why do it?

SPEAKER_04 3:34

Why do I don't know. That's a good question. Why do it?

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Why do it? I was raised in the South. I know many families where they really get that spiritual connection isn't when they go to church, but when they get together as a family. And sometimes they discuss scriptures as a family.

SPEAKER_04 3:57

Yeah, the dinner after the church service. Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

You know, and you're hearing these praises or certain things from your grandparents or your parents or aunts and uncles, and you're hearing those conversations about what the preacher talked about. Right. Then I've also, you know, been to certain situations to where you go to church because you're thought that that's the way it was supposed to be. You sit through the preaching, you go home, you have dinner, and you don't think about it the rest of the day. Which I find very sad.

SPEAKER_04 4:34

Yeah, that's not us. It's definitely not us.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

It's not us. My hope is when I write a ritual. Which I do write rituals.

SPEAKER_04 4:43

Remember that one time it was a Tuesday.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

No, I do. I've written a lot of rituals. My hope is that when people leave, they're thinking about this stuff. They're thinking about what happened in ritual. Because I know I am. Huh?

SPEAKER_04 4:58

They might have learned something.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Might have. I don't know. What about your experience after rituals? Regardless if it's with yourself or us as a group.

SPEAKER_04 5:11

I always learn after. I always think about it after. I always talk about it after.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Well, I d I've known I've known you on many occasions. After ritual, you cornered me.

SPEAKER_04 5:24

Question time.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Question time. I got questions. I got comments. Yep. You know. You know, and and and sometimes they're like you got tears coming down out of your eyes, you're all emotional. Sometimes you're sitting there laughing and giddy and really hyped up. Depends on the ritual. Depends on the ritual. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 5:46

Always emotional though. Always.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

And you're you're sitting there and you're you're saying stuff, but you know, even in your own private rituals, are you having that afterwards of where you might suddenly start having random thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 6:02

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

About your ritual that you didn't think about before your ritual when you were writing it. Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 6:10

Now I know you're next time. Okay, next ritual, I'm gonna add this. Here's a thought that I had. I'm gonna bring this into it. This is what I felt.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Right.

SPEAKER_04 6:21

But I'm a note taker anyway, so all my thoughts or feelings afterwards I tend to write down. You know, what did that ritual mean for me, really?

SPEAKER_01 6:30

What did I take out of it? What did I take out of it? I wrote it, I know what I wanted, but what did I get? But what did I get, yes. Yes, because sometimes when when I wrote rituals, I had a certain goal or experience I had in mind, and it not quite turned out that way. Well, I I which I don't necessarily say is a bad thing, but it was an experience I wasn't expecting.

SPEAKER_04 6:56

No, it's not a bad thing. It's not, it's just something you go, this is my intent, but this is where it led me, which is not the intent that I had.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Which again I would argue that that's that spirituality in religion reinserting itself.

SPEAKER_04 7:13

Oh yeah. That's common for me to go, here's my intent, and then after go well, that took a different path. It was good.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

I learned somewhere that went somewhere I was not expecting, I did not see that accent.

SPEAKER_04 7:31

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Don't get me wrong, that spirituality is a wonderful and great force. But if you have 100% dipped into that pool, you can get a little lost there.

SPEAKER_04 7:45

A little.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Okay, a lot. It's not a bad thing, but when you're forgetting to eat or oh God, what do you mean? I started going down into these weeds. It was Tuesday. What do you mean it's a month later? And I have to be dragged to the hospital for dehydration and starvation.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

Well, you know, I think for me personally, I need the structure because I will get obsessed with the details. Something simple. Call in the quarters. Well, we can do this. Well, what if we add this and then this and this and this and this and this? And so all these things kind of it's melancholy going through my mind. I can't, you know, sit down to to focus on what's really important because all these details I'm focused on. So the structure needs to come in to go, this is how we do it, and then we're gonna move on.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

In our religion, or what I teach, from day one, we tell you we're gonna teach you a way. And I d uh again, you know this personally, we pound that as much as we can into your head. We're teaching you a way, not the way. This is what works for us, this is what makes sense to us, and this is why it makes sense to us. But we could be wrong. There could be better out there. But here's how we're gonna cast circles. We're gonna do A, B, C, D, E. Right? And that way, when we come together as a group, everybody's on the same page. Everybody knows what to expect up to a certain point. What you do at home, what you do personally at home, which we highly encourage, is none of my business, and you can do it whatever way you want.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

Yeah, but we always make it your business.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Not always, but some of y'all do, some of you don't.

SPEAKER_04 9:46

Always make it your business. Let me tell you what it did.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Sometimes, yes. I will be sitting there going, Oh yeah, full moon's coming up, blah, blah, blah. I should be getting a call in the next couple of days or the day after from you going, Oh, let me tell you about this virtual idea. Yep. And let me tell you about my experience in this. And you know, my husband joined me, and let me tell you what he got out of. Which really surprised me or didn't surprise me, and this is great.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

I like to share.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Don't get me wrong, and I I'm not saying this, man. I enjoy that though. I enjoy those calls. Flatball went off. Right. I understood what you were meaning that you told me two years ago about this, and now I really get it.

SPEAKER_04 10:47

Yes, God, that happens a lot. Oh, that's what you meant six years ago. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

That's what you if the people listening to this don't understand, you know, Keegan here is studying for her second degree. And I've known I've had a lot of conversations with her during her training for second, where she will sit there and go, call me up and go, hey, what about blah, blah, blah? And they go, Do you remember when you were taking your first degree classes and we talked about this? Hold on, let me get my notes out. Yeah, I got it right here.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Well, let's discuss this again. Now I know the first time this happened, you were probably sitting you were sitting back and you were going, Why in the world am I going over first degree stuff again? Right. And then I pointed certain things out, and you were like, Oh. Oh. Now I remember talking about this before.

SPEAKER_04 11:48

You did mention it. Okay. It's one thing to hear it and write it down, and it's another thing to experience it.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Well, I mean, I also want people to understand. I'm surprised if I don't look through your notes and you go, night burped in middle of lecture. Oh, yeah. I take really good notes. You know, every cough, every sneeze has happened to be marked in parentheses. Right. Sneeze, continued. Right. You gotta study it. I'm never gonna have to write my book memoirs. You have them.

SPEAKER_04 12:34

Yes, I do. Um, even phone calls, especially after during the first year um after when you went away. But I got those phone calls. I even have the notes that I look at and go, I don't know what I was writing here or what he meant, but I kept those notes. Um I look back and going, I don't I'd love to know what my question was because that's an interesting answer.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Oh my God. So I I assume now you're writing down the questions with my thoughts upon your question.

SPEAKER_04 13:14

And you do though, because you'll say, Here's how I look at it, or maybe this, or some people think this way. You never say, Well, this is the answer, this is the truth.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

I could be 2,000 years old, I probably still wouldn't have all them answers.

SPEAKER_04 13:32

Well, if you thought you did, you never say it out loud. What do I know? These are just my thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

It's rare for people to listen to me.

SPEAKER_04 13:47

We listen. Sometimes it just takes some years for it to sing. Okay, well, did he answer your question? Yeah, something about uh West. I don't know. Well, didn't you take notes? Yeah, I made doodles.

SPEAKER_05 14:08

I made doodles.

SPEAKER_04 14:10

I drew doodles. It depends. It could go either way with me. Who knows? Didn't we talk about this yesterday? Yes, but I drew houses and smiley faces instead. I didn't take notes. But it's cool because you've never said, I'm sorry, we've gone over this 17 times, we're not going over it again. If you don't have it by now, you're never gonna get it.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

No. I gotta let y'all grow. And sometimes it it does. It takes time to deal with certain concepts.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Yes. Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

As being somebody that teaches a lot, it's nice when you do grab a hold of them, but sometimes, yeah, you gotta sit there and go over it and over it and over it again. Because some of the concepts we're talking about, again, are part of our mystery of religion where it's the universal mystery until you go through, until you experience it, you're never gonna quite understand it. That is the truth. And you know, I have to sit back and be patient to wait for you to have that experience. Because it is a spiritual matter, so therefore, it's not on a timetable. I can't say, hey, you're gonna have this spiritual awakening two weeks from now.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Choppy chop.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Can we hurry this up? I really wish I could sometimes, but you need to have this spiritual awakening in two weeks.

SPEAKER_04 15:52

Uh go.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Go. I have a schedule to keep here. But again, I'm back to this also illustrates the reason why priests should be taught that spiritual side. Because if we're doing all the scheduling stuff, there are some things we cannot schedule.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

Like spiritual awakenings.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah. And especially when you're teaching, you know, you can't just sit there and you should have already gotten this. I can't tell that. Because not everybody's the same. Green bean over here and jelly bean over here might be at two different places spiritually, but mundanely and classly might be on the same page.

SPEAKER_04 16:39

Well, if that is the case, would the something they didn't grasp spiritually prevent them from going up to another degree?

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Could be. But I mean if we're having that much of a problem with it, I would probably suggest that they go talk to the priestess. Since they handle most of our spiritual needs. Maybe she can explain in a way that I can or do a private ritual with you to help you nudge in that right direction. A little push. You know, there are certain times where I do have students when I need to talk to someone of equal footing, I guess, to a certain degree, that has, you know, a fair amount of experience that sit down and go, hey, here's my problem I'm having with this student. What do you think? You are my spiritual guide too, and I need your guidance on how to help this person. And that guidance might be, this is not something you need to do. I need to work with them for a little bit. Or vice versa, I guess. Right.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

And I like that balance. Well, balance is pretty important to us anyway. It's one of our things.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

It is. Any other questions? Um any other avenues you want to go down on this? I'd there's so many. Like I said, I can't see one without the other. But that spiritual path might be glorious and all this and might get such enlightenment and stuff like that. But I I can see a dangerous side to this because we do have physical bodies. We do have things that we have to take care of on a daily basis. Even if you're living alone up in the mountains, there are certain things you gotta do.

SPEAKER_04 18:35

You gotta eat.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

You gotta eat, you gotta take care of certain bodily functions, you gotta sleep.

SPEAKER_05 18:43

You just got you got to.

SPEAKER_04 18:48

So would you say Wicca is a religion, but the craft is spirituality?

SPEAKER_01 18:54

No.

SPEAKER_04 18:55

Explain.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Wicca is a religion, it is a system of belief. Craft is literally what you do, it's your specialty, it is what you do. For example, you're you're studying to be an herbalist. That's your craft. I deal with religious and magical theories. That's my craft. That's my contribution to the community.

SPEAKER_04 19:27

That's such an umbrella. You can fit so much in there.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

It is. I mean, because we're talking about me studying everything from ethics and morals to quantum physics and all this stuff, but that's just the type of person I am. What what is that? A jack of all trades, match master of none? I don't know if you're master of none.

SPEAKER_04 19:52

Jack of all trades, yes. Master of some.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

I'll be the first one to sit back and go, that's beyond my field of expertise. Only if you find it boring. No, not when I find it boring.

SPEAKER_04 20:09

Yes, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

There are some things that are beyond my field of expertise, and I have no problem telling people that. Because my field of expertise is very broad. When I have somebody there that has specialized training, let's give some examples in herbalism or counseling or in physical working out, or someone who has dedicated their whole life to learning and perfecting the techniques of meditations and stuff like that. For those people that need that extra hand, I'm gonna pass that student or that person on to that person. Huh. Because that goes beyond my field of expertise. Well, you pretty much know with meditation, though. I do, but I mean, I'm just using that as an example. You know, you're not gonna come to me and ask me about kitchen witch stuff is absolutely useless. I know some of it, I know the basics, but if you're gonna want more detail besides really simple basic stuff, I'm gonna send you to Lady Alba. If you're wanting more knowledge on herbs, I'm probably gonna send people to you. Or music. Or music, it's gonna be Oswan. Right. That again is something beyond my field of expertise. Who's the divination person? Really don't have anybody like that yet.

SPEAKER_04 21:38

We we got to get somebody like that.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

We do, and and they'll come along as we need 'em. Yeah. Yeah. I really believe that. So right. But again, if I have a member of Temple that may be experiencing problems with alcoholism or addiction or something like that, I'm gonna try my best. To pair them up with somebody else in temple who's already had that training or that experience. Like a sponsor. So they have that connection with somebody in temple, but more this. Well, that can empathize more with them, I guess. They can empathize with them and actually work. I mean, because I do not have that experience. I cannot sit there and socialize with people on that level sometimes. Right. I don't see nothing wrong with that, but it goes beyond my field of expertise. So therefore, I'm going to hook these two up and say, you need to talk to them. Where I think we have an advantage in doing this in craft per se is there's a little less apprehension there. On whose part? On the person asking for help.

SPEAKER_04 22:53

Well, I know this person's been through it or he knows what he's talking about, so I feel comfortable talking to him, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

And because they understand my religion, I can be a little bit more freer. You don't have to explain. Well, because of this and this and this, they already know. They already know. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't know a lot about our religion, and you go to a counselor or to AA or somewhere like that to gain help. Some of our people spend a more time explaining to them our beliefs. Right. You better help them than actually going to someone who already has that training. Absolutely. And they don't have to explain that. They can just get to the meat and potatoes of stuff. Right. And they're not either explaining or hiding or having to beat around a bush.

SPEAKER_04 23:43

They can just come right out with what they what they're having problems with. Yes. And be completely honest about it.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Right. I will not teach anyone whose significant other does not know that they are being taught this religion or coming here. This is not something you can hide from somebody like that for a very long time because you know, the first time we sit there and go, hey, you're gonna have to start meditating, blah, blah, blah, here's what you're gonna have to do.

SPEAKER_04 24:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

They're gonna notice these behavior changes.

SPEAKER_04 24:17

Yes, these very subtle changes, they might notice them.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

All right.

SPEAKER_04 24:25

It's like a spot going through your living room. They're gonna notice.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Now, if we're lucky, their significant other and our family supports them in this endeavor, but sometimes they don't. And we have to be there to support them as a community.

SPEAKER_04 24:41

Yeah, I agree. So they don't feel alone. So they don't help with everything else.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Exactly. So I mean if we're still looking at those what it takes to be of religion based on the federal government, this is that community part. This is where this comes in. That you have access to people who might have skill sets that you don't and have experiences that you don't that can help other people.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

Or know somebody that does.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Exactly. I mean, because we have people in Temple that go all the way from professional business people, mechanics, to people that do electronics to actually even doing computer on the programming side and networking all the way to education and stuff like that. If you don't think we're not pulling on those resources and learning ourselves and them learning, that's actually quite incredible. Oh, why wouldn't we use them?

SPEAKER_04 25:44

It's it's the best of the community together.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Right. And I shouldn't say using, but seeking out their expertise on this. And we also encourage, teach them. I'll look at the the mechanic in the group. If one of our people come to you to get you to fix their car for them, teach them. Get them to understand. Let me go ahead and say that even for solitaries who do get into that spiritual thing, hopefully with the community at large and them talking to others, solitaires and other people of traditions, that they got somebody there to pull them from the edge, sometimes sort of speak. Right. And that they have someone to communicate with these. Which nowadays is quite easy between what? All the different sites and social media stuff. Keeping in the back of your mind that not everybody's at the same point that you are in spiritual growth. Some people might be ahead of you, some people might be behind of you, some people might be off to the left, some people might be off to the right, some people might be above you, some people might be below you, some people might be crazy. You won't say it, but I would suggest, even if you're solitary and you don't want to be part of a coven, to at least make friends or be acquainted with people in more traditional settings. Get another look on it. Get another look, get a different view. You can't cut that part out completely and saying, I don't want anything to do with it at all, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because that is part of the culture, part of your religion. Well, I was gonna say It doesn't mean that you have to be a part of them or join them, but being friends with them and having conversations with them ain't gonna kill you. Then I could also say the same things about traditionalists. Go out, talk to them. Yeah, they might get a little upset with you when you're going, uh, the that's a first degree mystery. Or I'm not really allowed to discuss that. No offense to you, I would love to and understand, but I'm not allowed to because of my tradition. And sitting there going, Well, you're gatekeeping, or you're holding this back, or you're holding back my spiritual growth, isn't what they're doing. Oh, well, we are gatekeeping our tradition. Uh to a certain extent, but again, there's a method in which we come about certain things. And it seems to work. Does it work for everybody? No. Does it work for some? Yes. It works for us.

SPEAKER_04 28:39

Well, the fact is it's a s it's a mystery religion. Right. So if you're gonna get mad because we're not answering your questions, that's a personal problem on your part. Right. When you're gatekeeping, yes, yes, I am.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

I I am, but I'm not doing it because I don't like you or I'm mad at you. It's because there's a process. There was something I went through to learn this, to understand it the way I do. And again, until you go through that process, you're not gonna understand what in the world I'm talking about sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 29:13

No, it it is a it is an unfolding. It is layers, it is layers that you have to go through. Otherwise, you can tell them, tell them the answers, and they're gonna be like, I don't understand. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Or they're not going to hold it with the reverence and reveal that somebody who has gone through that experience does. I would encourage any solitary to put some structure in there, no matter what in the world they do. You're going to have to eventually.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

Now, would you agree that witches tend to be social people? We want that sense of community, we want that sense of like minds. Sometimes yes. Do you think that's because of the religion, or do you think that's just human nature?

SPEAKER_01 30:07

I actually I think it's both. I think it's human nature, but it seems to be more pronounced than normal when we are talking about the the pagan religions.

SPEAKER_04 30:18

I mean, yeah, we want our yeah, we want our solitude from time to time. I think we connect deeper in solitude. But there's also I think a certain craving that we have for someone else of a like mind, someone else, you know, a member of our coven, somebody, you know, somebody. Somebody that's just that craving. You just have to have it.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yes, there's that need there. Because most temples, covens, oh, from now on, I'm just gonna say temples. Everybody out there in the world, I'm sorry, I get tired of repeating myself like that sometimes. That members of temples do become close, they do become more like family to each other.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

And there is a closeness and there is a bond there. You think about it this way. You show up as a neophyte at my door, you're spending the next thirteen months with me. With your smiling face, with my smiling face babbling on and asking questions and that. Then if you start to add rituals and full moons and all that in there, and any social gatherings we do, that cements those bonds even more.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

For me, the bond you you start and you grow this relationship, but after initiation is when all these people of Temple become your family and you feel it and you know it. And it's not a question, it just is.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

It just is.

SPEAKER_04 31:57

And I, you know, I can go, you know, two years without talking to one of the covenant members, and still you have that immediate connection. You feel it and you know it.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

And it doesn't hurt your feelings that you haven't talked to them in two years, and it don't hurt their feelings. But as soon as you get on the phone with them, it's like Yesterday. I I d yeah, I I just talked to you yesterday. You're the same. I don't know if that's specifically, you know, our temple or other temples, but you know, it is something that should be strived for.

SPEAKER_04 32:31

Well, it's there. It's definitely there, or with me, it's definitely there.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

You may have a certain level of familiarity with people, and especially when you're third degree, sometimes you have to keep them at arm's length in certain settings. Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Because you know favoritism.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Right. Because I mean when we go into ritual, we honestly believe that we are all equal. Even outside, we are still all equal. Don't matter if you're a neophyte or a third degree or somewhere in between, we're equal. The only difference between a third degree and a neophyte is experience and some knowledge. That that that's quite a big difference though. Sometimes it's not, but we're still equal. That neophyte needs to be treated with the same respect as everybody else. So does that first degree, so does the second degree, and so do third degrees. There has to be that respect and love for one another to make this point. Now, again, I'm just one priest, but I do have to be careful. Because I'm not allowed to show favoritism. I try, but it's what's needed to make the temple grow.

SPEAKER_03 33:54

Well, you don't really have favorites. You have coven members.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Right. We are a religion for the priesthood by the priesthood. And yes, I will go ahead and say this as soon as you get that first degree, you're part of that priesthood.

SPEAKER_04 34:09

Right. And everything that comes with it.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

And everything that comes with it. Well, I don't know about you, but I'm out of coffee.

SPEAKER_04 34:20

I'm out of coffee as well.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

All right. Well, we'll see y'all next time.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Thank you for listening to Peg and Coffee Talk. I hope you join us next week.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

We travel down the straw.